Some historical event? Differing ways of doing evil? Conflicts over who can take over Oerth first?
Any insight would be appreciated.Just curious.
In their descriptions in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, they are stated to be at odds.
Aside from that, I haven't found much more regarding their apparent animosity toward eachother.
If you don't want the adventure spoiled, read no further (yes I know those aren't new, but better to err on the side of curteousness).
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
At the end of Vecna Lives!, the PCs find out that their only chance to stop Vecna was no chance at all, and he is about to become the sole greater god of Oerth. The only way to stop him is by calling upon Iuz (which apparently allows him to pinpoint that location). Being the only god on the Material Plane (thats what the module says, take it as you will), Iuz isn't affected by the divine barrier Vecna placed between Oerth and the Outer Planes, and Iuz shows up to try and foil Vecna's scheme, since it would undoubtedly result in Iuz's own empire being smashed in short order. The two battle, and they both fall into the temporal/dimensional gates at Tovag Baragu.
After this, in the adventure Die Vecna Die (Iuz shortly returns to his empire, and Vecna becomes entrapped in Ravenloft), years later, Iuz fell into a trap Vecna laid for any demigod who found it...Vecna created tablet's that said one demigod could drain another using a piece of that demigod's body, and become a greater god. Iuz, putting the Eye of Vecna in his own head, went to Ravenloft to try and use this on Vecna. The tablets had lied however, and instead Vecna used the ritual to drain Iuz through the Eye of Vecna, becoming a greater god and escaping Ravenloft. After having his plan to conquer all reality foiled, Iuz managed to escape from his absorbed state, and was able to reconstitute himself as a demigod (Vecna kept enough power to stabilize as a lesser god).
This is all the conflict we know about between these two deities.
Therefore Iuz and Vecna are on the same playing field both vying for the same thing, complete sovereignty over Oerth and all the power of the gods. This naturally puts their servants at odds with each other all the time. Whenever someone claims to find a powerful artifact that could potentially be used to subject Oerth, you will almost immediately see Iuz's agents descend upon it to try to claim it. You will not see Vecna's servants, but they will most assuredly be there, lurking in the shadows and manipulating things behind the curtain. Anyway, the point is they've always had a bone to pick with each other ever since Iuz attained godhood and started his reign of terror on Oerth.
Originally posted by Alzrius
The only way to stop him is by calling upon Iuz (which apparently allows him to pinpoint that location). Being the only god on the Material Plane (thats what the module says, take it as you will), Iuz isn't affected by the divine barrier Vecna placed between Oerth and the Outer Planes, and Iuz shows up to try and foil Vecna's scheme, since it would undoubtedly result in Iuz's own empire being smashed in short order. The two battle, and they both fall into the temporal/dimensional gates at Tovag Baragu.
The Vecna adventures are widely regarded as utter crud. I've never read them myself but if there are such huge mistakes in it as saying that Iuz is the only god on the material plane on Oerth, then I can see why GH die-hards don't like it.
Like I said in the other post, I'm almost positive that there are dozens of gods on the material plane, I just can't remember them and I don't have my references handy to find out.
Originally posted by airwalkrr
Vecna is one of very few gods who makes his home on the Material Plane, along with Iuz and Fharlanghn (the only others I can think of besides hero gods like Mayaheine who doesn't spend much time on the Material Plane).
I don't think any particular source ever said that Vecna, as a god, made his realm in the material plane.
Originally posted by Delglath
The Vecna adventures are widely regarded as utter crud. I've never read them myself but if there are such huge mistakes in it as saying that Iuz is the only god on the material plane on Oerth, then I can see why GH die-hards don't like it.
*shrugs* That's their opinion, and they are entitled to it. Frankly, I'm only concerned with what is and isn't canon, and the Vecna adventures are unquestionably canon.
The fact that they forgot to mention other gods on the Material Plane doesn't really bother me in this regard, because the way Vecna Lives! ended basically took into account gods on the Material Plane at all. The fact that they didn't put in the name of one or two others makes no difference - it still remembered to address this, and that was a great part of the adventure.
Like I said in the other post, I'm almost positive that there are dozens of gods on the material plane, I just can't remember them and I don't have my references handy to find out.
If you mean at all, then are are a not-insignificant handful of gods on the Material Plane. If you mean in Greyspace however, that becomes harder. Iuz is there, of course. Wastri lives in the Vast Swamp, Farlanghan (I know I misspelled this) wanders across apprently the sphere, but that's about it for gods there most of the time. St. Cuthbert has permission to go there, but he doesn't stay there all the time, or even most of the time. Likewise, we don't know where the Hero-gods live.
Originally posted by Alzrius
Frankly, I'm only concerned with what is and isn't canon, and the Vecna adventures are unquestionably canon.
Lol, you should try saying that over on the GreyTalk listserv. Beware that if you do, you should prepare yourself for a flamefest
Originally posted by Delglath
Lol, you should try saying that over on the GreyTalk listserv. Beware that if you do, you should prepare yourself for a flamefest
I'm not looking to pick a fight, I'm just saying I find interactions consisting of "this is crap because Gygax didn't write it" and "The RPGA sucks for killing GH" etc to be very distasteful. I'm not interested in hearing these negative opinions, so I look to things like canonity that transcend them. That's all.
Pretty much everybody has their own idea of what canon is and isn't so the notion that you expressed, '...unquestionably canon' was amusing to me because there are so many GH fans who would bicker that that alone is impossible. I tend to agree.
There is nothing that is unquestionably canon because at the end of the day, there is no official source to say what constitutes canon. There is only the opinon of fans, and they're so divided on the concept that I doubt there's a common consensus on any interpretation of canon.
Regarding Vecna's goal, the module suffers significantly from not taking into account all of the gods on Oerth. See Greyhawk Adventures 10-11, 14 (noting the home planes for Ehlonna, Fharlanghn, and Iuz). Thus if one is interested in canon, one must resolve this discrepancy. If you decide that Ehlonna and Fharlanghn are insignificant, then what about Beory herself?
I prefer modules that are completely playable -- by which I mean ones that do not rely on deus ex machina (literally in this case, which is amusing but doesn't change the critique). VL! contains many excellent details that supplement GH lore, but at least two of its key components are flawed and require significant DM work to incorporate into one's campaigns.
The module may also be fairly critiqued for "the sweaty gnomes," eh Scottenkainen?
Originally posted by Delglath
There is nothing that is unquestionably canon because at the end of the day, there is no official source to say what constitutes canon.
That's not true though; WotC says what's canon, since its their setting.
There is only the opinon of fans, and they're so divided on the concept that I doubt there's a common consensus on any interpretation of canon.
There doesn't need to be a consensus - it isn't our place to decide what is and is not canon. What we have now is the paradigm of what's printed is canon unless there is a specific reason it can't be (newer product decanonizes it, specific failing of the product in setting context, etc).
There doesn't need to be a consensus - it isn't our place to decide what is and is not canon. What we have now is the paradigm of what's printed is canon unless there is a specific reason it can't be (newer product decanonizes it, specific failing of the product in setting context, etc).
Smooth not for nothing but you need to get a clue. You’re just the type of rules lawyer I’ve thrown out of my games before. If you think this game belongs to anyone besides the fans your beyond 100% wrong. As far as what is canon is decided by the DM and to a smaller extent his players in their campaign. I don't have WOTC Canon police interrupt my game and tell me how to role-play.
Next thing you know you'll be running a cult were the members face castration and in the end they eat poisoned jelly pudding to meet the great guardians of the sky.
Yes, it’s true WOTC prints material, but if you haven't heard all the material is considered optional. No it’s not a rumor it’s true. Re-read your DM's guide and Player's handbook. Not that I need these published books to prove my case, but I figured a rules lawyer like your self would look for these things.
If the published and printed material is the way you want to go then fine do it. But never tell me or anyone else that we don't have the artistic license to develop our own version
.
My beef with that is that he's saying that the opinion of the fans has nothing to do with what is and isn't canon, but then goes and defines what is and isn't canon!
It would be funny if it weren't so lame.
Are people using 'canon' to mean 'what I'll allow in my own campaign'? That seems strange.
The core books set up the playing system and every module or accessory is an "Optional" part of the game. In fact, the only think "canon" about the rule books is that you need them to play (and even this is not true, to an extent).
"Official" rules and worlds (and the people who write, edit, and print them) change all the time by the publisher and should change all the time given the type and composition of the group that you play with.
So if the Vecna adventures don' t satisfy you because they clash, then modify them. If you like them, then use them. Build your own world with its own consistencies and quit expecting WofTC to do it. It ain't going to happen.
And this ain't no linear history or book to read!!!!
"Zeb" Cook or whomever it was that wrote that tripe should be drawn and quartered. He was a cool peice of GH lore from the 1e DMG, known only to the modern world by his eye and hand that are reported to be still causing evil in the world long after Vecna himself was DEAD. No real specifics beyond the tale that Kas, Vecna's second in command, used his mighty magical short sword to slay Vecna before dying in the battle himself. It was ancient lore, a name used to frighten small children, a piece of the past that was turned into another MEGA BADDIE of the WEEK! And top it off with the whole Ravenloft deal, he jump's settings? Oh the humanity! *beats head on desk*
Originally posted by Alzrius
That's not true though; WotC says what's canon, since its their setting.
There doesn't need to be a consensus - it isn't our place to decide what is and is not canon. What we have now is the paradigm of what's printed is canon unless there is a specific reason it can't be (newer product decanonizes it, specific failing of the product in setting context, etc).
How familiar with WotC's canon are you? Are you aware of all the inconsistencies and contradictions there are? It can't all be canon; the setting just wouldn't make sense. WotC doesn't have a Greyhawk canon. If you're looking for lots of official canon, then try Living Greyhawk. Not really to my liking, but they've tried to put as much of the released material together as possible and keep the setting viable.
Scott