Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 11, 2003 9:28:08	Which Greyhawk deities live on the Material Plane? Apart from Fharlanghn and Vecna.
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2003 10:00:15	If you count Iuz, he lives right there in Dorakaa. He is only a demi-god, but still.
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2003 10:00:33	Vecna's realm is actually his own pocket of the demi-plane of dread isn't it? Iuz is a native of the prime as is Zuoken and Wastri I believe. I think St. Cuthbert has been given temporary material plane rights in order to combat Iuz. I'm sure there's more but I don't have my LGG and can't think where else to reference that. The old WoG doesn't mention planes.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2003 10:08:03	Originally posted by Delglath Vecna's realm is actually his own pocket of the demi-plane of dread isn't it? This is correct. I don't have the book on hand to tell you what pocket it is, but anyhow...
#5 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 11, 2003 10:21:31	Yeah, I do count Iuz. I count all deities, hero-gods and demigods included.
#6 Alzrius Jul 11, 2003 10:24:08	Vecna was trapped in Ravenloft (aka the Demi-plane of Dread), but has since broken free (these events are chronicled in Die Vecna Die!). His current home, in terms of planar realms on the Great Wheel cosmology, is unknown. The best place to look for where the deity's lived, planar-speaking, is probably a combination of The Greyhawk Player's Guide and On Hallowed Ground, both 2E supplements (the former a Greyhawk one and the latter a Planescape one).
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2003 10:30:30	Both Iuz and Wastri live on the material plane. It stills says that Vecna (and Tharizdun) are imprisoned. Vecna is referenced to being on the demiplane of dread after a battle with Iuz in 581 CY. He must be free from that now, as stated in the above post. Tharizdun was of course imprisoned by alliance of other gods. Iuz lives in his empire. Wastri apparently lives in the Vast Swamp. All of that information comes from the 2e Greyhawk Player's Guide.
#8 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2003 16:12:05	Yes, I forgot about Wastri. That was in a LGJ wasn't it? I also recall hearing that Mayaheine wanders battling evil in the name of Pelor under several different aliases, but I don't remember where I heard it from so it might not be true. Maybe someone can confirm that.
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2003 20:49:39	I think I do recall Mayaheine being a prime planer. I'm pretty sure that a lot of the hero gods are also prime planers. Wastri is always overlooked He has no real empire and given that he wants to destroy all humanoids, he's not very popular.
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 11, 2003 21:40:07	Actually, it's long been assumed that Heward, Kelanen, Keoghtom and Muryland all live off-plane, but exactly where remains unspecified. Zagyg's whereabouts are also unclear, though he probably shacks up in Boccob's Library of Lore on the Outlands at least part of the time. Vecna has been mobile for a long time, though Citadel Cavitus originally resided on the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Dust as I recall. It later got sucked into Ravenloft and may have been destroyed when Vecna made his big breakout. Given his personality he's probably either back on Dust or on the lower planes somewhere. Mayaheine is an ascended mortal from anotehr Prime world. She serves Pelor and it's likely that she's encamped on Elysium with him for the time being at least. Iuz and Wastri have always been Prime residents.
#11 Alzrius Jul 11, 2003 22:59:46	Originally posted by Psionycx Vecna has been mobile for a long time, though Citadel Cavitus originally resided on the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Dust as I recall. It later got sucked into Ravenloft and may have been destroyed when Vecna made his big breakout. Given his personality he's probably either back on Dust or on the lower planes somewhere. Actually, the idea that Vecna's realm was Citadel Cavitius on the Negative Quasielemental Plane of Dust is a popular misconception. In fact, he had an Outer Planar realm like most other gods. Citadel Cavitius was, IIRC, not itself pulled into Ravenloft, but rather the Dark Powers made a copy of it for Vecna's realm there (they do that fairly often for a darklord's realm). The real Citadel Cavitius is still there. Where Vecna lived before, and does now, are still unknown. Iuz and Wastri have always been Prime residents. Farlanghan (spelling) wanders the Prime, and St. Cuthbert has permission from the other gods to enter the Prime, though his home is on Arcadia.
#12 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 12, 2003 5:50:17	Originally posted by Psionycx Actually, it's long been assumed that Heward, Kelanen, Keoghtom and Muryland all live off-plane, but exactly where remains unspecified. What do you mean with "off-plane?" And I'm having Vecna live on the Material Plane somewhere since that is what Deities and Demigods says.
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 10:15:19	As I noted in another thread, Greyhawk Adventures notes the home planes for Ehlonna, Fharlanghn, and Iuz as Prime. See pages 10-11, 14.
#14 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 12, 2003 10:19:30	Originally posted by Tizoc As I noted in another thread, Greyhawk Adventures notes the home planes for Ehlonna, Fharlanghn, and Iuz as Prime. See pages 10-11, 14. But Deities and Demigods says Ehlonna's home plane is the Beastlands, so that's where she lives.
#15 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 10:46:08	Woah! Sources sometimes conflict. It happens. Put the gods where you want them in your game and be damned with what some book says. If some source says that Vecna lived in a tin shack on the lower eastside of Greyhawk city, does that mean that you start drawing up the mighty demi-god/lich/uber wizard's humble home? First, dieties don't always seem to pick their home plane. That's were the divine energies above all pull them. That means that a particular diety may not even like living the majority of the time on their home plane. A LG god of paladin's may want to start up kip in Pandemonium in order to be closer to 'the ultimate evil' for his crusades. He may spend far more time killing demons from the Abyss that wander too far from home, but his home plane is still Mount Celestia/Seven Heavens. Consider this idea when looking at source inconsistencies. Canon shmannon. You can't resolve things by pointing out what book says what if two 'official' books disagree. Its then up to the player/DM to deceide which source is more 'official' than the other, or to ditch both in favor of personal preference.
#16 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 12, 2003 10:49:58	Well, I do try to go by official info as far as I can. I can pretty much choose the home planes for those deities that reside on the Outer Planes, but I just need to know which ones reside on the Prime Material.
#17 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 10:54:52	but I just need to know which ones reside on the Prime Material. Simple, whichever ones you put there.
#18 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 10:54:54	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer Well, I do try to go by official info as far as I can. I can pretty much choose the home planes for those deities that reside on the Outer Planes, but I just need to know which ones reside on the Prime Material. Both Greyhawk Adventures and Deities and Demigods are official products, so it becomes a matter of which you choose to be official in your game. As I stated in the Greyhawk Canon thread, my favorite thing about the setting is that I can scrap information from some sources, and use my own creative license to do what I think I should to portray the setting in my own games.
#19 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 11:39:41	I agree with posters who believe one must choose such things for each campaign. I cited Greyhawk Adventures because the initial post seemed to request all information, and other posters had not noted Ehlonna's presence on Oerth.
#20 Alzrius Jul 12, 2003 12:24:27	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Canon shmannon. You can't resolve things by pointing out what book says what if two 'official' books disagree. Its then up to the player/DM to deceide which source is more 'official' than the other, or to ditch both in favor of personal preference. Actually, thats just a matter of interpreting the canon - in this case, newer products take precendce over older ones, so if D&Dg 3E says Vecna lives on the Material Plane, then thats that. You don't have to run your games by canonity, nothing says you do, but canon is what it is, and that's unchallengable.
#21 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 13:16:31	Originally posted by The White Sorcerer But Deities and Demigods says Ehlonna's home plane is the Beastlands, so that's where she lives. Yet another example of slackarse writing. I don't care what people do for their own campaigns and I even encourage people to share those ideas with others, however when it comes to writing professionally, then part of your job is research and getting your damn facts straight. One of the biggest problems with Greyhawk is the fact that so many authors have been lazy bums and run roughshod over what has gone before. I garauntee you that putting Ehlonna in the Beastlands was not a conscious decision of the writer based on having known anything about Ehlonna being a prime native . It was based entirely on them being too friggin lazy to do their research and WotC not giving a rats-bum. Originally posted by Alzrius Actually, thats just a matter of interpreting the canon - in this case, newer products take precendce over older ones, so if D&Dg 3E says Vecna lives on the Material Plane, then thats that. You don't have to run your games by canonity, nothing says you do, but canon is what it is, and that's unchallengable. What a load of BS. Who are you to say that what's new is better than what's old? That is your OPINION on what is and isn't canon. Most GH fans, you will find, prefer the exact reverse of what you suggest but then I'm sure you're arrogant enough to try and tell them that their version of canon isn't the RIGHT one. Since when did you friggin well write the book on canon?
#22 chatdemon Jul 12, 2003 13:41:35	According to Greyhawk Player's Guide, page 21: Only Fharlanghn, Iuz and Wastri live on the prime. As Marc pointed out, Greyhawk Adventures, page 10 lists Ehlonna as a prime material deity as well. I would say that GA overrules D&Dg in terms of Ehlonna's home plane in a canonical Greyhawk game. OTOH, I personally believe it makes more sense to have her in the beastlands, so in my game, she is not a prime goddess. The Lerara quasi-diety Mother, whom they call Se-Murma could also be considered a prime deity, if you accept 'her' as divine. I do
#23 Argon Jul 12, 2003 14:29:48	Personally I like the idea of Iuz alone on the prime. To me it makes more sense for him to have gone unchecked so long. Remember the wars played their roll and Iuz's Empire grew quite large. Now that's my personal opinion but if you want to change that in your game then do so. I promise I won't hold it against you really I won't. I like the idea of Vecna trap on another plane of existance only the artifacts of Vecna can bring him to the prime again. Once again my opinion. So do what you like with your game just let it make sense with anything else you have done. That's the only canon I really subscribe to. But I must agree that alot of the older products were better than what's in print of recent. My opinion of course. So choose what you like.
#24 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 16:02:18	In contrast to the method of Alzrius and in accord with that of chatdemon, I prefer to abide by earlier texts unless they are specifically "overruled" with a compelling justification in a later text. Wait, we're not in Constitutional Law? ;) Because earlier texts had more gods on Oerth, I developed the rationale that gods walked the Oerth with more frequency during the middle of the Common Years. By the end of the sixth century CY, the gods walk less frequently, or so it seems... IMC, Ehlonna lives in an enchanted bower (demi-plane? Fading Land?) accessible from various places on Oerth. Where? The various faerie forests on either side of the Lortmil Mountains likely hold such portals -- though in keeping with fae fashion, such portals are less like physical things and more like conjunctions of various phenomena that permit entry, e.g. nights when Celene is full and the bluebells blooming, along a certain stretch of the Jewel River, marked by many small cloven footprints and a ridiculously large (edible, psychotropic?) mushroom). In addition to according with my sense of the world, this set up facilitates the sense-making that Argon noted, i.e. Iuz unchecked.
#25 zombiegleemax Jul 12, 2003 22:02:34	I like the idea of Ehlonna being in the fae realm, perhaps even a part of the Seelie Court? I also like the idea of the gods once having walked the Oerth frequently but having made a pact not to in order to prevent catastrophe. Some gods are just slower than others at giving up their place on the prime, especially gods like Ehlonna who are deeply connected to the physical realm. Perhaps she is simply one of the last to leave? Gods, after all, tend to take their time with these things See, now if the writer in the DDG had done something like the above, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the conflict, but I truly believe there was ZERO thought or research done. Also, I do recall reading something about fae portals that suggest they are, or can be, grounded to one place or physical reality. It was something about placing stones around a mound (believed to be a gateway of the Tu'atha Dedanaan [sp?]), and walking around the mound seven times whilst the moon was full. If someone did that, a portal would appear in the mound and they could enter the fae realm. I can't remember if it was a legit book or just some fanciful BS, but it certainly sounds cool
#26 chatdemon Jul 13, 2003 3:15:24	Actually, now that I think about it, Ehlonna probably belongs in Arborea or Olympus. She's a woodsy, huntress goddess, not a beast lord.
#27 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 13, 2003 3:21:33	Next question: Do any of the deities live on the Inner Planes? If so, which ones?
#28 zombiegleemax Jul 13, 2003 6:22:00	As far as I'm concerned the earlier texts over-rule the later ones. For those who also take such an approach, Gygax's 1983 Glossography also gives Olidammara and Obad-Hai as residing on the Prime Material Plane (although not necessarily Oerth) Wastri and Ehlonna also do not necessarily reside on Oerth. Only Iuz and Fharlanghn live on Oerth.
#29 zombiegleemax Jul 13, 2003 9:11:02	Intriguing Damio, I probably should've looked up those sources myself but I can be lazy like that sometimes Care to explain what you mean by the others being native to the Prime Material plane but not necessarily residing on Oerth?
#30 zombiegleemax Jul 13, 2003 23:00:05	If one prefers her abode to be on an Outer Plane, then Ehlonna probably should cavort in Elysium (either Amoria or Eronia), perhaps in a domain with access to a particularly quick current of the River Oceanus leading both to the Happy Hunting Grounds and Arvandor... (By the way, have others recognized that the River Oceanus in Elysium bears striking resemblance to Coleridge's lines from "Kubla Khan?") ***** Where Alph, the sacred river, ran / Through caverns measureless to man / Down to a sunless sea... ***** I could also be convinced that Ehlonna's bower on the Prime Material Plane is on Luna (or Celene?), which might explain why certain devotees (based in Courwood) call her the "Bright Lady." But maybe I liked tales of Artemis too much as a boy? ;)
#31 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 14, 2003 5:46:53	Okay, I've already decided to put Fharlanghn, Vecna, and Wastri on the Prime Material. And I'm putting Ehlonna on the Beastlands. Do any of the deities reside on the Inner Planes?
#32 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2003 6:37:59	Originally posted by Delglath Intriguing Damio, I probably should've looked up those sources myself but I can be lazy like that sometimes Care to explain what you mean by the others being native to the Prime Material plane but not necessarily residing on Oerth? Fharlanghn and Iuz have Prime Material (Oerth) listed as their Plane. Olidammara and Obad-Hai and Wastri and Ehlonna only have Prime Material. I suppose the implication is that the latter four may live on other planets at least part of the time.
#33 Brom_Blackforge Jul 14, 2003 14:29:00	Originally posted by Tizoc In contrast to the method of Alzrius and in accord with that of chatdemon, I prefer to abide by earlier texts unless they are specifically "overruled" with a compelling justification in a later text. . . . as long as you've got both texts to consult. As I said on the Greyhawk Canon thread, if only WotC would compile all of this into an encyclopedia or comprehensive sourcebook, it would make things so much easier for us! (Not to mention, it should avoid further errors in new products born of a failure to research what came before. That is, if there ever are any new GH products.)
#34 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2003 15:02:06	I appreciate the frustration of not having all the texts. I think that the PDFs available for purchase significantly increase access, and provided you have a new ink cartridge, printing select pages gives fans something to read beyond the computer screen. However, I'm less sympathetic to not wanting to find information on one's own. Personally, greytalking has reinforced the lesson that if I have a question, the Internet greatly facilitates my ability to find an answer. Of course it's great to ask and receive answers (and to learn further questions), but ... Hmm, what I'm trying to articulate is my sense that people on these boards (like others en otras lugares) struggle between wanting the answer and in making a choice. Always already, DMs are authorized to choose. I don't want merely to reiterate what Samwise wrote in another thread. However, recent folders in this forum, questioning what is canon or what is the spirit of Greyhawk, bring up perennial concerns for fans of GH (and other settings?). I try to learn from others not just what they choose but also their rationale or reasons for so choosing. From such interaction, I feel that I make better, i.e. more informed, choices for my current campaign. Take good care. P.S. - I don't know of any GH gods who reside in the Inner Planes.
#35 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2003 23:13:42	Amen to that, Tizoc. Err. . . Although I don't have the books (a few old ones, but not many) I don't recall ever hearing or reading about a GH deity having an elemental plane as a homeland. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't bank on there being any since the original home plane associations were based far more on alignment than portfolio (with the prime material residents as the few exceptions to the rule).
#36 zombiegleemax Jul 17, 2003 3:59:24	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Amen to that, Tizoc. Err. . . Although I don't have the books (a few old ones, but not many) I don't recall ever hearing or reading about a GH deity having an elemental plane as a homeland. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't bank on there being any since the original home plane associations were based far more on alignment than portfolio (with the prime material residents as the few exceptions to the rule). [/QUOTE You just can place all the God and Goddress on one plane if you want to.
#37 The_White_Sorcerer Jul 17, 2003 4:09:34	Well, all my questions have been answered. Thank you all! And yeah, I know I should've looked for the info myself. And I did do that. Couldn't really find anything. So again, thanks for the info!