So far as the sorts of spells that a bard gets goes, they need to tie in a lot more closely with what an Athasian bard is supposed to be... a hoarder of secrets, a manipulator of people and a poisoner. Could probably do with some new spells as well but I thought I'd float the general idea first.
Anyway, the idea is that the bard class is descended, indirectly, from the court magicians of the Green Age. These individuals could not match the true magic of Rajaat, or did their spells ever rival the raw power of the psions of that time. Rather they were curiosities and entertainment. As such bardic magic consists of mind tricks, the casting of auguries, trompes l'oeil and the use hallucinogens and poisons.
The bard does not draw the energy to fuel his spells from one source. Part of it comes from locking into the bard's own inner potential and intuition, part of it comes from the subtle manipulation of spirits (as a result bardic magic has a slightly more clerical bent than normal) and part of it is lost science (NLP and the like). Because of this diversity bardic spells can be dispelled both by Dispel Magic and by Nullify Psionics.
Anyway, here's the list...
0-LEVEL BARD SPELLS (CANTRIPS)
Dancing Lights
Daze
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Flare
Ghost Sound
Mending
Open/Close
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
Resistance
1st-LEVEL BARD SPELLS
Cause Fear
Change Self
Charm
Cure Light Wounds
Deathwatch
Detect Secret Doors
Erase
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Hypnotism
Identify
Mage Armor
Magic Weapon
Message
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Sleep
Ventriloquism
2nd-LEVEL BARD SPELLS
Animal Trance
Augury
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Cure Moderate Wounds
Delay Poison
Detect Thoughts
Enthrall
Glitterdust
Hold Person
Hypnotic Pattern
Invisibility
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Misdirection
Obscure Object
Pyrotechnics
Scare
See Invisibility
Shatter
Sound Burst
Suggestion
Summon Swarm
Hideous Laughter
Tongues
Undetectable Alignment
Whispering Wind
3rd-LEVEL BARD SPELLS
Bestow Curse
Charm Monster
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Confusion
Contagion
Cure Serious Wounds
Emotion
Fear
Greater Magic Weapon
Haste
Illusory Script
Keen Edge
Lesser Geas
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Scrying
Sculpt Sound
Sepia Snake Sigil
Slow
Stinking Cloud
4th-LEVEL BARD SPELLS
Break Enchantment
Cure Critical Wounds
Detect Scrying
Dismissal
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Legend Lore
Locate Creature
Modify Memory
Neutralize Poison
Poison
Rainbow Pattern
Shout
5th-LEVEL BARD SPELLS
Divination
Discern Lies
Dream
False Vision
Greater Dispelling
Mind Fog
Mislead
Nightmare
6th-LEVEL BARD SPELLS
Eyebite
Geas/Quest
Greater Scrying
Mass Haste
Mass Suggestion
Repulsion
Vision
Star Gazer
The main idea here was to give a point of comparison with PHB spell list - remove anything overtly 'sorcerous' and add in some slightly subtler spells. So, for instance, they lose the power to Control Weather which feels too 'magical' but gain Discern Lies which feels more in keeping with what the Athasian bard is about. Thinking about it, I might throw in Mind Blank at 6th-level as well.
The idea really is to come up with a class that is closer to the core bard systematically but fits the setting thematically.
The real problem for the Dark Sun bard is that it doesn't really seem to have any clear blue water between it and the 3rd edition rogue. The whole poison-using, spying mariachi thing could be realised just as well with the Rogue class.
Anyway, I'm not advocating bards as arcane magic users. I'm trying to work out a spell list that fits the mariachi/poisoner feel. In fact, I think that the Athasian bard better in some ways with spell use. The whole game with the bard was that the noble he worked for always knew that the bard might be secretly trying to kill him. Why not just employ a slave who knew how to sing rather than some freelance who knew how to sing and to put poison in your breakfast. It doesn't really make sense.
On the other hand, if Athasian bards are slightly supernatural, they can tell fortunes and bring good luck to their employer's estate then they really have a place in Athasian folklore. This is what I'm trying to achieve here - a bard that really does have a unique niche in Athasian society.
The point is that Athasians would see a real difference between the legerdemain and fate-weaving of bards and the real sorcery of wizards. I've tried to sculpt a spell list that emphasises this difference. Bard's aren't wizards as far as cultural judgements go but they do have unique and powerful talents which make it worth the risk of employing them.
And then there is the question of why it is considered impolite to turn down a bard. If a bard is just a talented entertainer with a sideline in poisoning people it really doesn't make a lot of sense. On the other hand, Athasian bards as a unique and insular profession make a lot more sense to me. Bards fill a very odd and powerful role in Athasian society. They are mysterious and almost mythic figures. The very fact that 'you never refuse the gift of a bard's services' suggests there is something supernatural about them.
This is why I think tracing the bards back to the proto-magicians of the Green Age make good sense. They don't have any truly overt magic. It all seems to be sleight of hand, mesmerism or uncanny insight. But there is something uncanny about the bard. They are shrouded in an ancient mystery and tradition that means that it is really bad luck or bad form to turn them away. But you are certainly not comfortable with one in your house.
And then there is the question of why it is considered impolite to turn down a bard. If a bard is just a talented entertainer with a sideline in poisoning people it really doesn't make a lot of sense. On the other hand, Athasian bards as a unique and insular profession make a lot more sense to me. Bards fill a very odd and powerful role in Athasian society. They are mysterious and almost mythic figures. The very fact that 'you never refuse the gift of a bard's services' suggests there is something supernatural about them.
Actually, I have written the practice of accepting bards sent by rivals down to be nothing more than a cultural norm. The aristocracy has always had its own social codes and forms of etiquette that commoners are unaware of, which would prevent someone with just money (i.e. merchants) to aspire into the social circles of the aristocracy. Cultural norms are very powerful - just take the honor principles of many present day cultures that lead to culture clashes and misunderstandings. You wouldn't believe the amount of negotiations that fail due to cultural misunderstandings and ignorance of foreign customs. So, not accepting a bard, would be a large social code violation, if not social suicide. Just think of the signals such an action transmits - fear, distrust, cowardice, rudeness etc.
Interesting discussion, btw. Something else than the rules for a change.
Yeah, I know the original Dark Sun bard did not get magic. It never seemed to stop bards with magic turning up in various Dark Sun supplements though but that is besides the point.
The one or two inconsistencies that did appear were contradictory to the core rules, and if TSR/WotC had used erratas earlier, I suspect these issues would have been cleared up. I think you will have a hard time convincing people that those few bards with spells that appeared over the years warrant that all bards should have spells. But I have an idea. If I were you, I would try building a prestige class around the spellcasting bard, and focus more on knowledge, misleading and fate-fickling spells than ability augmenting spells, haste, healing and such. That would actually help explaining retrospectively those inconsistencies with spellcasting bards that appeared once or twice.
Mmm. But the difference between an Athasian bard and the house rogue is just contractual as you put it. In terms of abilities, there is not much to set the bard apart from the rogue. Certainly, within an adventuring party the two are going to do more or less the same things.
The bard and rogue archtypes are actually more different than you might think. If you read the flavortext on the bard and on the rogue, you might see what I mean. A ranger and a rogue often do more or less the same things in a party, just as a barbarian and a fighter, but I wouldn't categorize them as the same. Personally, I see a lot more differences between rogues and bards than the nature of the contract with their employer(s). Feel free to jump in with comments, if anyone else is reading this.
EDIT: And of course, read the class features of said classes - especially the bard and rogue. Quite different.
The point is that Athasians would see a real difference between the legerdemain and fate-weaving of bards and the real sorcery of wizards. I've tried to sculpt a spell list that emphasises this difference. Bard's aren't wizards as far as cultural judgements go but they do have unique and powerful talents which make it worth the risk of employing them. [...] This is why I think tracing the bards back to the proto-magicians of the Green Age make good sense. They don't have any truly overt magic. It all seems to be sleight of hand, mesmerism or uncanny insight.
But a templar with ranks in Spellcraft would be able to identify the bard's "tricks" as arcane spellcasting and even be able to pinpoint the exact spell. The spells reproduce the same effects as wizards do, so how would any athasian really know the difference? Could a wizard pass himself off as a bard or vice versa? Indeed - since no ordinary athasian would know the difference. The only way a Veiled Alliance wizard can root out a bard is by asking him to cast a spell that is not on the bard spell list. I don't like tinkering with these concepts. Personally, I think the templars would arrest the bards all the time, search them for spellcomponents and generally be more suspicious towards them if the bards can cast spells.
So, not accepting a bard, would be a large social code violation, if not social suicide.
As opposed to accepting one which would be a different sort of suicide?
If I were you, I would try building a prestige class around the spellcasting bard, and focus more on knowledge, misleading and fate-fickling spells than ability augmenting spells, haste, healing and such.
Yeah, I think that is right. The augmentative powers, with the exceptions of perhaps, Remove Curse and Neutralize Poison really don't quite fit. I think though, that there is plenty of scope for "poisonous" spells to showcase that aspect of the bard.
The bard and rogue archtypes are actually more different than you might think. If you read the flavortext on the bard and on the rogue, you might see what I mean. A ranger and a rogue often do more or less the same things in a party, just as a barbarian and a fighter, but I wouldn't categorize them as the same.
The difference being that each of these classes have unique class abilities. At the moment, it really doesn't feel like the bard has very much to set him apart from the rogue, just a variation on a theme. I don't see why you can't play a rogue that has the social position of a bard rather than a bard proper.
But a templar with ranks in Spellcraft would be able to identify the bard's "tricks" as arcane spellcasting and even be able to pinpoint the exact spell. The spells reproduce the same effects as wizards do, so how would any athasian really know the difference?
Yeah, but the average Athasian knows there is a difference between sorcery and elemental magic and psionics for that matter. And what I'm proposing is that a bard's spellcasting is distinct from Rajaat's sorcery. Spellcraft would say, this is not wizardly magic. That is why bards don't hurl fireballs around. They have to rely on a far subtler form of magic. They don't command it, they manipulate it.
I certainly don'tthink bard's should be able to do the things that wizards do. I just think they should be able to do something that someone else can't do. The whole arcane/divine distinction doesn't really seem to apply to Dark Sun anyway. So no, I'm not suggesting that bards be able to use magic proper. They are not preservers or defilers. They can't hurl fireballs around.
On the other hand, they do no a lot of lore and secrets that have been lost to others. I think that this premise could be used as a basis for a bardic spell list. But it's not the same thing as Rajaat's sorcery. They would be a completely different sort of creature to the persecuted wizard.
As for why the SKs don't kill off all the clerics? Simple. Elemental spellcasters aren't going to become powerful and start turning into dragons and hence challenge the athority of the SKs. Maybe even the SKs don't know about the elemental metamorphosis since its never been documented that someone has actually attempted it.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
But I have an idea. If I were you, I would try building a prestige class around the spellcasting bard, and focus more on knowledge, misleading and fate-fickling spells than ability augmenting spells, haste, healing and such. That would actually help explaining retrospectively those inconsistencies with spellcasting bards that appeared once or twice.
I agree with Jon. I would rather see your idea become a PrC with no healing or ability augmenting spells, and haave nothing but spells that make them more of a bard.
Healing and other ability augmenting things != Bard in my book.
This fits in quite well with the way core 3rd ed bards actually gain spells. They have a number of effects they can accomplish but the understanding is intuitive. They can't learn new magic by studying someone else's work like a wizard can. They have to pick up their knowledge as they go along.
As I've said, I don't think that the bard spell list can be used as is. Some of their spells are too obviously magical. I still think my list needs work but essentially just about all the spells that I'd consider giving to a bard are things that can be explained by uncanny insight, clever trickery or a manipulation of alchemical phenomena. Certainly, I think that spells are probably the best way to realise the bard's mastery of poison.
I don't know if anyone has read The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe but I think it has a fantastically Athasian feel. As a sidenote, it was rather influential in my developing the Anthropophagus prestige class. However, the setting is one of a civilization in slow decline. As such, magic abounds but it is really only fragments of the lost science of past ages. There is plenty of scope for lost science and magic in the Dark Sun setting, as it is. Life-shaping is an obvious example (and one which I'm certainly not advocating for bards) but also things like the creation of meorties or beast-headed giants.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
For the same reasons that I think that rangers shouldn't have spellcasting, bards should not have it either. First, its hard enough for someone attempting to become a wizard to find a tutor willing to teach him or her. A mage is far, far less likely to want to teach someone who is either already adapt at poisoning (wizard's being the paranoid lot that they are) or shows too much interest in becomming a bard. Bard's are slightly higher profile individuals than mages are. Since the SKs forbid magic and templars tend to kill mages on the spot, why would an SK allow the nobles to continue the practice of hiring minor spellcasters for their petty squabbles? The spellcasting bard class would have been wiped out long ago. If the nobles can find and hire a bard, a SK wouldn't have any problem finding and punishing one as well. Mage's at least hide from everyone. It just doesn't fit in a logical sense without revamping the flavor text of a bard to allow for more diversty outside of the 'noble's play toy'.
Amen
Healing and other ability augmenting things != Bard in my book.
Partly agreed, although I think that an exception could probably be made for Neutralize Poison and possibly for Remove Curse as well.
Originally posted by Afghan
I certainly don'tthink bard's should be able to do the things that wizards do. I just think they should be able to do something that someone else can't do. The whole arcane/divine distinction doesn't really seem to apply to Dark Sun anyway. So no, I'm not suggesting that bards be able to use magic proper. They are not preservers or defilers. They can't hurl fireballs around.
The problem with that is Athasian magic is totally different from other worlds. You just can't give a class spellcasting abilities without making it fit thematicaly in with the setting, and the way you describe it does not work.
If bards were granted spell casting abilities they would either have to be preserver/defiler, divine, or use the way (psionics).
To create something out of the blue which you have done, not only kills the overall setting feel, but it breaks it so completely as to the point of letting other things exist in Athas that should not. Might as well play an FR based world at that point IMO.
Originally posted by Afghan
Partly agreed, although I think that an exception could probably be made for Neutralize Poison and possibly for Remove Curse as well.
That I can deal with.
If bards were granted spell casting abilities they would either have to be preserver/defiler, divine, or use the way (psionics).
Why? Couldn't they just be bards?
I'm not trying to create something out of the blue. I really am trying to blend the spell-casting bard in with the setting. But Athasian bards need something. They're a poor man's rogue at the moment and don't really work as a core class.
I don't think, I really don't think, the spell-casting bard nixes the setting so badly. Care needs to be taken when drawing up a spell list. But even as it stands bards exhibit some fairly uncanny effects. I mean, Mind Blank is an 8th-level spell. Is that psionic or sorcerous? Bardic music gives the bard a number of supernatural or spell-like abilities. It's not as if bards don't have supernatural powers as it stands.
Originally posted by Afghan
Why? Couldn't they just be bards?
This isn't Final Fantasy, this is Athas. Spellcasting is a rare art form. You just can't give that to anything without explaining why they have it in the first place and how it works with the overall setting as far as themantics is concerned. You have done that, but I really don't like the way in which you have done it. This would fit better as a PrC IMO than a core class, and even then they need to follow the already established ways in which one can be a "spellcaster", whether that is drawing life from the land, praying to an elemental, serving a spirit of the land or a lesser version of that, or manifesting from within. I don't think Athas needs yet another way of drawing magical power to dish out supernatural effects.
They're a poor man's rogue at the moment and don't really work as a core class.
Going to have to agree to disagree at this point.
But even as it stands bards exhibit some fairly uncanny effects. I mean, Mind Blank is an 8th-level spell. Is that psionic or sorcerous? Bardic music gives the bard a number of supernatural or spell-like abilities. It's not as if bards don't have supernatural powers as it stands.
Having supernatural powers and drawing energy from a source to produce a supernatural effect is entirely two different things. There are many more things other than bards (monsters and such) with supernatural abilities, and don't have spellcasting abilities.
Having supernatural powers and drawing energy from a source to produce a supernatural effect is entirely two different things.
This was exactly my point! :D
Originally posted by Afghan
This was exactly my point! :D
So are you then trying to make Bards have nothing but supernatural abilities? Meaning they don't require components et al to cast their "spells" then?
If that is the case, just make them a manifester.
So are you then trying to make Bards have nothing but supernatural abilities? Meaning they don't require components et al to cast their "spells" then?
Hmmm. Perhaps. Yes. I'm trying to represent bardic abilities using a spell-casting mechanic rather than trying to give bards 'magic'. The problem with getting rid of the components is that you are then, effectively, giving them two levels of meta-magic for free (Still Spell and Silent Spell).
In any case, for a lot of bardic "spells", components are appropriate - for instance, if the bardic ability with poison is represented with various spells (which strikes me as a very effective way of doing it) then material components will be very suitable. Similarly, if a bard is using a charm effect then it seems more apppropriate that they should do something vaguely hypnotic than accomplish it by will alone.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
What's a psychic warrior but a toned down psion with beefed combat abilities. Why couldn't you, under that same premise, create bard's as a kind of psychic rogue. I know, were mixing and meshing here (and disregarding multi-classing and all), but many of the supernatural abilities that bard's gain are, IMO, mildly psionic in flavor. Toss them some psi abilities to justify those heightened class features instead of magic.
What Mach said. Psions and psychicwarriors are nothing more than beings with supernatural abilities that they manifest. This, to me, is exactly the way a "spell casting" ranger and bard should be done in Athas.
I got outvoted on the ranger thing, and I still disagree. To me Aragorn didn't wave his hands around, throw up a material component while chanting to use some of the supernatural abilities he used in LOTR, books or movies, though he sing some. He represents more of a manifester or someone with just a few supernatural abilities that are useable a few times a day to me. The same should be done with bards if you plan to go this route. I don't see bards being anywhere close to being misinterpreted as a spellcaster of sorts.
But I think that Athasian bards are more fun if there is a bit more of a mystery about them. I think it fits the feel of them. After all, they can brew poisons that even accomplished alchemists cannot, their music has a power to bewitch that even the most accomplished performer cannot match. To say, "Oh it's just psionics." does not quite do the Athasian bard justice.
Even the bard themselves may not know how they do what they do. They use the charms, songs, tricks and toxic recipes that their master taught them as an apprentice. The master learned them from his master and so on back through the ages. Quite possibly some of it is psionic, some of it sorcerous, some of it something perhaps something else. But the bard himself doesn't learn it as part of a big system like Rajaat's sorcery. He just learns the recipe for the 'Violet Death' or an old elven Curse Song. Spells are just a good way of representing the various tricks that bards pick up as part of their profession.
Saying they are a manifester mechanically and then flavor wise just saying they just do what they do and don't know quite how it works other than through their own will, works too.
I only think that this creates problem for flavour if you insist that Arcane Magic = Rajaat's Sorcery and I don't think that this is essential to the flavour of the setting.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
manifester powers (which would also fit with flavor). A variant of psionic powers then, as defined by their own songs and other abilities. Their own powers list could be vastly different (just rewrite the bard songs from core and make them powers instead). Alter flavor text to keep the aspect of 'mystery' (they know not how they charm people with songs . . . etc).
That's exactly how I would do it.
Nothing says they can't have their own unique list of powers/SPs to choose from.
Originally posted by Afghan
Well I'm not completely won over by the manifester argument. It doesn't really tie in with abilities like Countersong or Suggestion (which can be dispelled).
Not sure what you mean, psionic powers can be dispelled just as easily as magic is, core isn't using the variant rule.
If however you don't like that, which I don't, they can still be "dispelled" by null psionics field.
On the other hand, if you are not using the variant rule for bards, which, in my vision you wouldn't, where is the problem? Bardic spells/abilities are a blend of psionics, hedge magic and other tricks.
Originally posted by Afghan
So would Countersong still be effective against magic? And would bards, as manifesters, still suffer from the chance of failure when deafened?
According to the way things are ran, yes, although not sure about the deafened thing, I would have to say no there.
If you were using the variant then the former would be no.
On the other hand, if you are not using the variant rule for bards, which, in my vision you wouldn't, where is the problem? Bardic spells/abilities are a blend of psionics, hedge magic and other tricks.
It's all a flavor thing. Mechanically you have to pick one, it can't be all of the above.
Hence why Athas just shouldn't have any spellcasters but wizards, clerics, druids and manifesters in the first place.
It's suppose to be a world where that sort of thing is limited, start adding more and more "spellcasters" in the mix and it seems less so. At least in my eyes.
It's suppose to be a world where that sort of thing is limited, start adding more and more "spellcasters" in the mix and it seems less so. At least in my eyes.
Well, spell-casting is a mechanic rather than a flavour issue. It is a way of representing a particular classes abilities. Mechanics-wise I also don't quite see the problem with saying bardic spells and abilities are affected by Dispel Magic and Nullify Psionics. This is the default anyway.
I'm certainly not talking about bards using overt magic. I'm suggesting using the existing mechanic to represent what Athasian bards can do. It doesn't have to be 'magical'. Mechanically, it would be 'spell-like'. I mean, if bards used spells to represent the various different poisons they knew how to mix, where would the problem be? IThe mechanics could be worked out so there was no ambiguity whether it could be dispelled or nullified. And it wouldn't violate the 'feel'. It's not as though every single supernatural ability or even spell-like ability on Athas is 'sourced'.
1) The class abilities of the Bard don't separate from the Rogue well.
2) Adding the flexibility inherent in some sort of projected power would do quite well. This is the reason PHB Bards can indeed cast spells.
3) The simplest method of adding projected power is - suprise - modeling off of the PHB Bard.
I happen to somewhat agree that the bard seems like a specialized rogue, but that's ALWAYS going to be the case. You can create a 'Bard' by switching between levels of Rogue and Sorcerer in std DnD, so I'm actually not too worried about point one, especially since they have A) Musical effects and B) Bardic Secrets.
2) I agree that bards have lost most of thier flexibility, they seem almost entirely suited to urban adventuring and seem as if they would be 'out of place' in a dungeon type setting, this, I feel is entirely inappropriate for a Core class and something needs be done.
3) Ahhh... the bone of contention. I agree with Afgan in that it is quite easy to explain bardic power as Tricks, Sleight-of-Hand, and Legerdemane (TSL). I also agree with some of the other posters in that psionics is slightly more in keeping with the flavor of DS. But I'm running into a meta-game problem w/ that: nobody is going to be producing additions to the power lists for psionic bards, while there are already many different additions for bards in many other supplements if you choose to to go w/ a spell like paradigm.
I would do one of two things:
1. Use the 'magic' paradigm and call it some corrupted form of the Way
2. Bite the bullet and switch to psionics.
BUT, either way, I would do it as an entirely NEW core class, allowing people to pick and choose.
My 0.2cp
Roger.
Essentially, my new idea is that bards still get the same abilities that they have in PHB - bardic music and bardic spells - but these things, on Athas are psionic in nature. Bardic powers are psionic but they are not 'the Way' - if this makes sense. Bards have to use music, poetry, riddles and gestures to unlock their inherent potential. They cannot simply access these powers by will and concentration. This is not without precedent on Athas - consider the belgoi who use bells to focus their psionics.
So bards use a spell-casting mechanic to represent how they access their powers but they are counteracted and detected as psionics rather than as magic. As such bards exemplify very different abilities to the standard psion due to the very different way in which they tap into their psionic potential.
In this way, the 'feel' of the bard can be maintained (I suspect otherwise they would be far too similar to psychic warriors) but without compromising the 'feel' of the setting - that is bards don't have access to some as yet undiscovered source of power.
Originally posted by Afghan
Essentially, my new idea is that bards still get the same abilities that they have in PHB - bardic music and bardic spells - but these things, on Athas are psionic in nature. Bardic powers are psionic but they are not 'the Way' - if this makes sense. Bards have to use music, poetry, riddles and gestures to unlock their inherent potential. They cannot simply access these powers by will and concentration.
I have no problem with this at all.
Essentially all psions and psywarriors are just people who can loose spell-like abilities with the power of force of will, that's pretty much the PsiHB definition. Making a "psion" that instead can only loose said effects by singing, dancing, poetry, playing a musical instrument, or any other art form imagineable, works for me.
Now we just need a list that distinguishes differently from others. I have no problem with healing "spells" that help with healing poison, but they shouldn't have any other healing powers like I mentioned earlier, and most of their stuff should be tricksy.
Speaking of dancing, I've been thinking about a way of coming up with a Mystic Dancer PrC that was mainly a bard PrC that used that sort of entertainment to help her fight better and have a little psi potential as well. I might actually work on that today.
Now we just need a list that distinguishes differently from others. I have no problem with healing "spells" that help with healing poison, but they shouldn't have any other helaing powers like I mentioned earlier, and most of their stuff should tricksy.
I'll have another rake through the bard list and cull out the healing stuff, but essentially the sorts of things that feel appropriate, to me, are...
Fateweaving (curses, auguries, lucky charms... they're all after me lucky charms)
"Jedi" mind tricks (charm, discern lies, suggestion, modify memory)
Light & Sound effects (hypnotic pattern, sculpt sound... less sure about this one though)
Minor glamers (invisibility, change self)
Poison (plenty of new spells to be had here, I think)
What do people think? Are any of these wrong? Have I missed anything?
Speaking of dancing, I've been thinking about a way of coming up with a Mystic Dancer PrC that was mainly a bard PrC that used that sort of entertainment to help her fight better and have a little psi potential as well. I might actually work on that today.
Sounds groovy.
I rather think that the bardic spells however should be very broad and be capable of rather extended durations. Durations for some bard should extend to the length of the bard's performance, requiring concentration of course. A simpe check system to continue a bardic spellweaving that drains the bard physically (failed checks but the bard at fatigued and exhausted, with possible subdual damage each time as well, 3 failures negate the weave). This kind of system could also port over to other types of 'ritual' classes. I've been looking for a good adaptation of a shaman class for DS (altered flavor of course, but one who uses fetishes and spirit's of the land but is not quite a druid). Dunno, I think I'm starting to stray a bit though.
Originally posted by Afghan
Fateweaving (curses, auguries, lucky charms... they're all after me lucky charms)
"Jedi" mind tricks (charm, discern lies, suggestion, modify memory)
Light & Sound effects (hypnotic pattern, sculpt sound... less sure about this one though)
Minor glamers (invisibility, change self)
Poison (plenty of new spells to be had here, I think)
That's about what I had in mind too.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I rather think that the bardic spells however should be very broad and be capable of rather extended durations. Durations for some bard should extend to the length of the bard's performance, requiring concentration of course. A simpe check system to continue a bardic spellweaving that drains the bard physically (failed checks but the bard at fatigued and exhausted, with possible subdual damage each time as well, 3 failures negate the weave).
Yeah, I was thinking of giving them a spell list and number of spells per day chart thing, that acted as powers, and saying that all the somantic, verbal, and material components are their performance. So one could loose a spell with all three by singing while dancing, and eating fire, or something like that, etc.
This kind of system could also port over to other types of 'ritual' classes. I've been looking for a good adaptation of a shaman class for DS (altered flavor of course, but one who uses fetishes and spirit's of the land but is not quite a druid). Dunno, I think I'm starting to stray a bit though.
Same here, I think shaman fits really well. In 2e I just used the shaman from the 2.5e book Spells & Magic. Have yet to see anything I like this time around.
A) Bards are supposed to be flexible, and that's one of the ways in which they are.
B) Bards are NOT just poisoners, they are alchemists, it's an exclusive skill for that class, there is plenty of room for them to have minor healing abilities, and low level (5th and under) healing spells fit that bill perfectly.
Originally posted by Star Gazer
B) Bards are NOT just poisoners, they are alchemists, it's an exclusive skill for that class,
Not anymore, no such thing as an exclusive skill in 3.5.
Healing is probably something to look at again after the core bardic spell list is sorted out. I'm sort of neutral on the matter. To some extent the 3rd edition bard has always been a support class, bolstering other party members rather than doing stuff himself. Having said that, I think it would be more amusing for the Athasian bard's 'help' to be a little more double-edged...
"I know just the charm for this occasion. It is called the Chant of the Amorous Braxat. With my aid, lord, your enemies shall be scattered before you."
"Dragon's teeth! Not again. Keep your tricks to yourself, bard."
Brief history: ran DS off and on for about five years starting the week the first boxed set was released, stopped when I could find other players and have just found my way home and am very ahppy. I am about to rekindle the old campaign w/ 3E.
That said, I was quite happy with the non-magical bard I found.
To me, they are no more a glorified rogue than a ranger is a glorified fighter. They are their own class, and the class, as designed, should be left alone.
I know that DS is under new management, but keep the core classses in step with the intent of the original developers.
That said, do what you want with your home campaign, but for official development, don't muck with the bard by trying to add magic or psionics.
There are several sterotypes at the DS bard which are similar than the case of two-wepon fighting ranger. Like:
-poison use
-every bard is an assassin
-magic/psionic tricks
I had the problem in 2e that I would like to play a bard who are just a musician and entertainer. It was always hailed as an assassin. This is unacceptable! Free the bard! Freedom to the legal tricksters who are not killing! Down with racism!
And more importantly: get rid of the stereotypes the way as 3.5 rightly corrected the ranger sterotype. We can do the same with the bard.The main point: we call a bard a bard is music and entertainment. That should get the most focus in the class. It's OK if they have tricks here and there, but if we get too much emphasis on it (like in 2e DS: bard=assassin) than we get something which is bard only in her name.
I liked very much the non-magical bard created by the athas.org team. Had a bit too much underworld/illegal skill (poison use, smuggling, etc.), by my taste (what if I would like to play a legal entertainer with good background and no shady connections), but quite OK anyway.
Sorry if I was a bit off, it's only my opinion about the bard on Athas.
Since the beginning, athas.org "had" preached for spelless ranger and bard. I was quite happy and very fond of this. I though it was the best decision and to tell you something, I would rather have used these in a FR setting. I dont know why, but a bard or a ranger casting spell... it's just wrong.
The only thing I ask is that before releasing it is that you rethink to the 3.5 ranger (or bard) ask yourself why you wish to change something you had in mind for about 2 years (spelless).
I think that a ranger with psionic is no more than a psychic warrior. This is surely something different that can be done IMO. But I will have a look at my 3.5 books when they will arrive before complaining
As for the bard, oh yes, psionic would be a better choice than magic. I can't get myself to accept the fact that it's not real magic... damn, it's the in the wizard spells list that they're gonna take choose their spells. It's no mundane or strange magic, it's magic.
I am not advocating bardic spells because of some dogmatic idea that "3rd ed bards should have spells". However, I do feel that the way the Dark Sun bard works at the moment is closer to a prestige class than a core class. There is not a huge level of flexibility and, although they get a variety of abilities, these are all geared towards a particular sort of activity.
In any case, bards have supernatural powers as it stands. But I certainly wouldn't start from the position that 'bards need a spell list'. The only reason I suggest the idea is that this is how bards are represented in core and it seems a good way of representing the abilities they currently have, although in a slightly more consistent and flexible way. But I'm certainly not shooting for 'magical' or 'psionic' bards. I'm trying to see if the feel of the Athasian bard proper can be captured with a spell-casting mechanic.
To make it further: It would be an intersting concept, that makes emphasis on the 'jack-of-all-trades' part of the bard: she multiclass more easily. Maybe getting the negation of multiclass XP penalty as class feature of the bard class. Then she can more easily dabble in the business of other class, getting 1-2 levels as fighter, and/or rouge and/or psion on Athas/sorcerer on other worlds. She would be a mystery man then, as you can never be sure what she knows (i.e. which classes she got). Only we have to take care that bardic abilities (music, knowledge) is based on total character level instead of class level (as the later would kill the benfits of this setup for the bard).
Hmm, it's a bit similar to the 2e oriental ninja class, as they have to have an other class as "cover class".
Anyway it's just a couple of toughts, but maybe starts somebody's creative jiuces...
In DS1&2, the Bard did indeed equal assassin, the original plan, apparently, was to call it the Assassin class, but for some reason, they were not allowed to do so. So, they called it the 'Bard'. Unfortunate? Yes. But that's ok, because the DS3 bard is still an 'Assassin' class with a built in cover. No biggie. When you think Athasian Bard, instead think Athasian Assassin and you'll have wrapped your mind around the core concept of the class.
I think you'll find a lot of people who would agree that the bard class on Athas would be better as a PrC, but you have to realize that it also fills a needed niche in DnD3e games: purveyor of hidden knowledge, something that the Athasian bard does extremely well. Remember, this is NOT a d20 product, this is a DnD3e product and as such, it should map rather more consistently than a d20 product has to. The Bardic knowledge skill is not something that should be only given by a prestige class, the ability to have 20 levels in the skill is, IMO, needed. If there are any changes that do need to be done I think I must agree that Bards have no XP penalties for multiclassing, as they are indeed JoaTs.
Why?
In the Real World bards, and their many parallels in non-Celtic societies (skalds, rhapsodes etc), were the custodians of oral history and learning. Athas, as a largely illiterate and unschooled world, would probably have a lot of people fitting this type: from halfling tribal story-tellers to entertainers travelling from city to city. In a world without universities and writing is preserve of the elite, it is the 'bards' who preserve the knowledge of the Athasians.
The 'city bard' or 'assassin' presented in DS2e can be seen as a unique adaptation of this mould to life amongst the noble houses of the city. Such a repository of knowledge is too dangerous to leave in the hands of an enemy noble. By turning their hand to treachery bards ensure they themselves do not become targets for assassination. If you know that a bard's allegiance is for purchase then he becomes a valuable commodity to be bartered for rather than a danger to be eliminated.
However, I do't think that such a role is representative of the wider bard archetype - and I think that archetype is importan tenough to warrant a core class. However, it faces a problem in Dark Sun. In other worlds, it is perfectly acceptable to represent the bard's forgotten knowledge and symbolic social role with magic spells. In Dark Sun, however, magic is something very specific. It does not permeate in the same way that it does in other settings.
In Athas' past, the bard most likely functioned much as the historical bard did - as a travelling teller of tales and keeper of wisdom. Because of their value, the bard would have been allowed access to cities, estates, temples and all manner of other places where their knowledge would be welcomed.
As life on Athas deteriorated, it seems likely to me that the bard would have begun to evolve into a natural assassin. Initially trusted and welcomed in all locations, the bard makes the perfect infiltrator and spy. It is not too great a leap from there to see how murder would soon follow.
Nowadays the athasian bard's reputation is nothing like it once was - they are seen for the assassins that they have become - but somewhere in the past it was probably not this way. The bards of the Green Age may well have resembled the bards of other game worlds, in both ability and attitude.
(I had some similar ideas about the cultural evolution of defiling and preserving magic, but I am so not going to go there....)
But now the assasin exists as a prestige class, and with a small work (converting her spells into psionics, almost all her spells have a direct psionic equvivalent) it is perfectly adaptable on Athas.
Therefore we should keep the bard as a real bard, not the assasin. There is always a possibility if somebody wants to play a bardic assassin to get levels in that PrC.
The idea about the keeper of the culture is a good one to flesh out a real bard. I can see the following main points in the Athasian bard class:
-entertainer, who can manipulate people
-keeper of secrets
-jack of all trades
To make it a game mechanic: the first two is mostly covered by PHB (bardic music and bardic knowledge). The last one is covered by wide range of class skills, we can put to it some rule about easy multiclassing (like always getting at least 4 skill points/level even if she takes a level in an other class with less SP/level, always can treat bard class skill as class skills even if she takes a class in another class, no XP penalty, bardic music and knowledge is based on character level instead of class level) and that's it! And if we even than feel it weak, we can use some of the bardic secret ideas as bonus.
Ideas/comments?
The idea of a typical wine, women, and song bard doesn't mesh well with my idea of athasian flavor. Turning them into poison toting assassins does.
If you don't like the assassin reputation, then just downplay it. That is, bards are primarily reknowned as entertainers, storytellers, and keepers of history. They can use their knowledge for evil ends, but that isn't their primary function.
I am slightly reminded of the Maesters in George R. R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice. Masters of knowledge and generally considered above suspicion, yet they can and sometimes do use their intimate knowledge of healing (and poisons) to kill.
Originally posted by Gralhruk
I don't know, everything on Athas has been mutated into something more deadly. Look at the races, the monsters, the undead; heck even the domestic animals have adapted new methods of attack and defense.
The idea of a typical wine, women, and song bard doesn't mesh well with my idea of athasian flavor. Turning them into poison toting assassins does.
You can always do that, with the assassin prestige class. But it is just one way to go. There are much other. And if the bards in your eyes are assassins, than simply make a core assassin class. That's my problem with the whole thing: why call we it a bard, when she is an assassin? The class should be named after its most important aspect, shouldn't it?
If you don't like the assassin reputation, then just downplay it. That is, bards are primarily reknowned as entertainers, storytellers, and keepers of history. They can use their knowledge for evil ends, but that isn't their primary function.
The problem is that you can't downplay it if it such integral part of the character as you see. Because they are -contrary to what you wrote- primarily reknowned as killers for hire. Because it is an assassin with some musical talent, not a real bard where the music and such things are the main thing in the class.
I am slightly reminded of the Maesters in George R. R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice. Masters of knowledge and generally considered above suspicion, yet they can and sometimes do use their intimate knowledge of healing (and poisons) to kill.
"Sometimes do" is good for only to give a possibility for the class to get into that direction (with PrC for example), not for put it as an integral part of the character. Especially that we have a flexible multiclass system with the 3e.
If your just refering to a name change though, then by all means, call them assassins. I don't think there's a real need for the assassin PrC in Dark Sun anyhow.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
The way its stands now though, you could, with character development or PrCs, play up either the bard aspect or the assassin aspect. I always took it as this. Not all bard's are assassins, but many, many assassins are bards. Those bards who are not assassins are mere NPC class performers. Those assassins who are not bard's are members of another class (fighter, ranger, etc. who kills for money). But the assassins of the Tablelands have integrated themselves into the bardic culture so much over the years that they have become inseperable. Its the cover for the killer and in order to keep that cover, they must keep up appearances and learn not just how to kill, but how to stay hidden under the guise of a simple performer. Hence, on Athas, a bard is a nobody. You don't need a whole class devoted to nobodies who can just play a merry little tune.
Well said.
If your just refering to a name change though, then by all means, call them assassins. I don't think there's a real need for the assassin PrC in Dark Sun anyhow.
IMO the assassin PrC should be allowed, in expands on the bard's ability to be an assassin. We could add a bard requirement if need be to make it to where you have to have a few levels of bard to take the PrC, and remove one of the other abilities, like I did with MyD (it's been scaled down to 2 levels of bard).
This way you have the bard that is jack of all trades, and then you have the bards that take the assassin PrC to become better assassins, or take the poison master PrC (Wheelock (sp?)) to become better at poisons, etc.
Originally posted by Gralhruk
I don't know, everything on Athas has been mutated into something more deadly. Look at the races, the monsters, the undead; heck even the domestic animals have adapted new methods of attack and defense.
The idea of a typical wine, women, and song bard doesn't mesh well with my idea of athasian flavor. Turning them into poison toting assassins does.
I'm not sure. You know. The PHB bard is still fairly dangerous for a wandering minstrel if you ask me.
Anyway, it's not that I don't think poison toting bards don't have their place on Athas, it's just that I think the class as a whole should be more flexible than that. There are a lot of 'bards' where I don't see the assassin model being so appropriate.
Take, for instance, a halfling story-teller - the repository of the tribe's oral history and knowledge. He's not out to assassinate anyone. On the other hand, I can see him having other abilities, such as the use of various charms and fetishes to ward off evil. Or a group of escaped slaves hiding out in the desert... I can see them having a bard along with them keeping their spirits up with songs and stories, hell I can even see the character as a PC, but again, the assassin schtick doesn't fit.
Yeah, bardic assassins are cool. I don't want to see them go. But there is room in the class for other, non-trivial aspects of the bard.
Outside of the spellcasting, what else would you like bards to get that they don't already?
As far as Bard==Assassin, it isn't like they get death attack or even sneak attack damage. They get some initiative bonuses and the ability to make and use poison. Outside of that, their abilities are mostly defensive.
).The point is the general concept of the bard in the PHB is just as applicable in Dark Sun as anywhere else. Not the magic use, I admit, but certainly bardic music and bardic knowledge (neither of which seem quite right for the assassin bard).
But one thing that I think, and people really don't see to agree with is...
Spell-casting mechanic != magical powers.
I'm not asking people to agree with this idea. But I seem to be having difficulty getting the idea across, which is starting to frustrate me a little. And it's hot here. And I spent four hours on a train today.
Phew!
They are in a position to spread information to powerful people - information which may or may not be true. They can easily become puppet masters, start trade wars, coerce noble houses into feuds, rile up the common people, influence the veiled alliance and templarate alike.
And if, along the way, they need somone to die mysteriously - either to protect their cover or as the catalyst to some other plot - they have the means to do so.
I like that image much better than a bunch of minstrels skipping along:
We love to sing
and make your day
so very gay
But that wasn't quite what I was saying.
What I was saying was that the bard class represents, like most other classes in the PHB, a fantasy archetype. The Athasian bard, as it stands, doesn't quite have that sort of breadth or iconic strength. Don't get me wrong, it's a great character. It would make a superb prestige class. I think even without a prestige class the character should be represented by the bard class. But I think the bard class should represent other aspects of the archetype as well.
I also think that the bard worked quite well in 2ed Dark Sun... but the designers of that work didn't have the mechanic of prestige classes to work with. I'm sure if they had, the 2ed bard would have been one. It would be a good one.
And I'm not say the PHB bard can stand hook, line and sinker either. But making over the spell list, I think, still represents the best way of realising a 3rd ed Athasian bard. As soon as I get Jon's last map done, make some headway with my project and have some time to sit down, I'm gonna work on it.
And there aren't going to be any wandering poppinjays with lutes either.
Originally posted by Afghan
Spell-casting mechanic != magical powers.
Uh, what does it equal then. If I cast a spell I'm using some sort of magical power, whether it's arcane, psionic, druidic, or faith based. Either way you look at it it's magical power.
I agree that the athasian bard -as written- is more of a niche player. Still, I think the spells had to go and the abilities that replaced them are certainly interesting and logical enough to facilitate some good play.
Originally posted by Afghan
And I'm not say the PHB bard can stand hook, line and sinker either. But making over the spell list, I think, still represents the best way of realising a 3rd ed Athasian bard. As soon as I get Jon's last map done, make some headway with my project and have some time to sit down, I'm gonna work on it.
And there aren't going to be any wandering poppinjays with lutes either.
Take my advice. When you get ready to do this, make a whole new feedback thread for this using flip's rules for format.
Post your idea of the bard class there.
You are going to get alot more people that matter in the decision making process to not only take a look at it, but possibly give you feedback as well. Hell it might even get acccepted if it's good enough. Keep on it by all means, don't back down.
It's this sort of thing that might finally let the mystic class I wrote see the official light someday.
Nothing is 100%, but this will help if anything.
By the by, to give an idea of what I mean by non-magical spells...
Dragon's Venom
Transmutation [Poison]
Level: Bard 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Touch
Effect: 1 weapon
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort
Spell Resistance: No
Dragon's Venom is one of the most potent poisons in the bard's arsenal. The bard coats a blade with a paste mixed from certain rare herbs, defiler ash and tembo's blood onto a blade. The paste reacts with the air to form a deadly blade venom. The bard traditionally chants and gestures during application but this is a matter of tradition rather than necessity.
The venom retains its efficacy for 1 hour after casting. The poison itself cannot be dispelled or nullified. A victim struck with the poisoned blade must make a Fortitude save or die, in addition to the weapon damage. Even a successful save incurs 8d6 damage as the venom courses through the victims veins like liquid fire.
The poison is good for only one successful blow. The bard does not have to strike the blow himself, only prepare the weapon. Neutralize Poison is of no benefit against this spell, so swiftly does the Dragon's Venom work.