http://www.armageddon.org
it is a MUD (multi-user dimension). And I wonder if the Wizards of Coast would be interested in this game? They even have stores online selling products for the game, (t-shirts, mugs, duffle-bags) so they are probably making money off the game. What do you all think?
-Delerak
Originally posted by Delerak
There is a video game on the internet right now, which seems to have taken it's material from Darksun, here is the link.
http://www.armageddon.org
it is a MUD (multi-user dimension). And I wonder if the Wizards of Coast would be interested in this game? They even have stores online selling products for the game, (t-shirts, mugs, duffle-bags) so they are probably making money off the game. What do you all think?
-Delerak
Well, it's a MUD, not the end of the world. From what I saw on their website, the only real thing I could think of that could give you the hint of something like that is that it is set in a "harsh desert world". Mind you, I only glanced over the website, am WAAAAAAAAY too familiar with ancient DIKU MUD code (having been instrumental in making the command interpreter interface for the original), and haven't really gotten any satisfaction out of any MUDs for the last..... 7-10 years.
Anyway (not to get side-tracked) just because a game is set on a desert world, doesn't mean it rips off Dark Sun (after all, there are a few other, well known settings which are based [at least in part] on harsh desert worlds, like Dune, or Star Wars [somewhat].) Even if they borrowed some ideas from DS, if they use some common sense in how to integrate it legally, then it's a non-issue, i'd think (some things can't be chalked up as copyright infringement, after all, if they could, Microsoft would have been squashed years ago).
I'm also not a big fan of someone posting a notification for something like this (in the manner which you had done, btw), on a public forum, as it tends to make you look bad to many who read the forum, and is general "bad form" or impolite. Things along this line I think should be sent in a more personal manner (like e-mails, or other non-public means), get my point?
Well, I don't want you to think I'm really trying to flame or attack you personally, as I really don't know you myself, I'm not a member of WotC, and really don't want to read mail addressed to them posted in an area that is more likely read by their players than their employees (which I know, in many cases, those two words can be interchangeable at WotC).
Check out the race section specifically, I'm sure there is more, that's the one that caught my eye the most though.
Wow, animal section too, check that out. Animals
It's based off play, so if you've ever MUDded, it's hilarious
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
If this isn't a blatant rip off I don't know what is.
Check out the race section specifically, I'm sure there is more, that's the one that caught my eye the most though.
Wow, animal section too, check that out. Animals
Well, it looks like DS and it smells like DS. And teh name sounds so familiar: Zalanthas.
{shrug} not our prob...In case no one has taken the time to, I'm submitting to WOTC the address of the MUD in question. They can then decide for themselves wether the MUD is worth the effort to be held accountable or not. I hate to ruin the fun of those participating in the game itself, but at least give credit where credit is due. Had they not been selling merchandise and had they also at least acknowledged that their material derived from the Dark Sun campaign setting, I think I'd feel otherwise about it. Shame really. I feel cheap and dirty for doing it.
-Delerak
-Delerak
GameMasterNick - A long-time member of the MUDding community.
-D
Thems the breaks.
-D
;)
I WAS petty and vindictive... ....When I was 13.
-D
-D
Oh well, irony is never as effective when you have to explain it... :D
I did a little research because of the blatant thievery this 'game' (not familiar at all with this strange 'MUD' stuff).
For Immediate Release — 31 March 2004
RENTON, WASH., 31 March -- After weeks of negotiation, Wizards of the Coast, Inc. has purchased the rights to ArmageddonMUD. ArmageddonMUD is an online, text-based role-playing game set in the company's Dark Sun campaign. The purchase entails two website domains and licenses to the game's C-based code.
"We're very excited about this new market for our Dark Sun setting," said company spokesman Michael Landers. "The playerbase of these online communities are very loyal. It's really encouraging."
Among the changes to take place is a complete overhaul of the administration, with all of prior administrators of the game, the nearly seventy, being downsized. Michael Landers stated that two of the prior administration, known as "Nessalin" and "Sanvean", will remain with the subsidiary, staying for a short while as the game begins a slow conversion toward a full Dark Sun campaign. Four consultants have already signed on to begin the transition of the game.
Among the reported changes to take place in the remodeled Armageddon:
Psionics will be greatly expanded so that most of the skills will be available to all classes as well as added into the capabilities of many NPC monsters.
Mantis and halfling races will be opened up and integrated into the game world so that they're a viable race that can interact (and even party) with the other humanoid races.
Metal, while still rare, will become more common and be available as a reward to those that complete successful dungeon crawls.
Exciting new 3rd Edition Prestige classes like Gladiator, Mind Flayer, Shadow Dancer, and Defiler Hunter.
A new D20-based combat system that will be familiar to WotC fans everywhere.
Play will be available for a low 14.95 per month fee. Established players will be offered a 10% discount.
Funny.
"Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:19 pm Post subject: Wizards of the Coast acquires ArmageddonMUD".
-D
The items I see in their store all seem to be original, related to their logo, and not something specific to the TSR setting.
And, didn't Wizards dump the DarkSun setting into open d20 anyway?
Is DarkSun even still held under IP rights?
I guess I'm not clear on this. It looks like they've adapted this pretty significantly from the information originally in DarkSun, perhaps even enough that it would ultimately be signed over to fair use.
The items I see in their store all seem to be original, related to their logo, and not something specific to the TSR setting.
And, didn't Wizards dump the DarkSun setting into open d20 anyway?
Is DarkSun even still held under IP rights?
Yeah, afaik it's still WotC IP. They have licensed it out to Burnt World of Athas (and Paizo too I think), but it's still theirs.
I guess I'm not clear on this. It looks like they've adapted this pretty significantly from the information originally in DarkSun, perhaps even enough that it would ultimately be signed over to fair use.
The items I see in their store all seem to be original, related to their logo, and not something specific to the TSR setting.
And, didn't Wizards dump the DarkSun setting into open d20 anyway?
Is DarkSun even still held under IP rights?
Are you in league with these *****? You just made an account to post this reply??? Look again at the races and animals sections on their site.
Soemone should again try to report the site to WotC.
:D
Kankherd is just a sockpuppet I use to argue with myself. Sorry about that...
-D
Heh. You guys are silly as hell. On a more serious note, I'll try to contact WoTC to see if they ever did check into Armageddons material.
-D
Silly? Me!? *indignant look*
1) The game has been around since 1991. It was indeed originally inspired by DarkSun as well as Frank Herbert's Dune. I'm not the original creator, who has long since moved on to other things, but I am one of the three people who run it now and pay for expenses like hosting the game and our discussion boards. There are 25-30 volunteers who work on it, all longtime players, and somewhere around 400? 500? players.
2) In the course of the past fifteen years, we've tried to move it away from DarkSun precisely because of concerns about intellectual property. If the remnants of the original influence, which I believe primarily consist of some DS-specific races, are problematic, we can take a few months down and work at removing those, but my impression has been that since this is a non-for-profit enterprise, this is not a problem. I will be contacting the WotC people to confirm that this is the case. No matter what, the game is based on DIKU code, and we are prohibited by that license from charging to play. Nor, frankly, would I or any of the other staff want the headache involved in a commercial enterprise - this game is entirely a hobby.
3) We don't make money off this game. Indeed, over the years, it's been a substantial money-drainer, which we don't mind because it's a fun community and we enjoy it. There has never been and never will be any intent to make it a commerical enterprise. We -have- tried to raise money for advertising, which has generally been an unsuccessful venture, primarily through an Amazon affiliate store, where players of the game can order Amazon books through us. We do have a CafePress store that features artwork created by players; it was created to sell items at cost so players and staff would have access to items depicting the game. Plans are in the works for a POD book that features docs that are specific to the game, such as a game time-line, and biographies of prominent players. No one is selling WotC intellectual property, nor are we trying to rip anyone off.
4) While this is somewhat beside the point, I do want to point out that Delerak is a longtime player of Armageddon, who has been banned several times and that his post has an agenda behind it beyond concerns about WotC's welfare.
I'm glad to answer questions about the game here or in email, and can be reached at [email]sanvean@armageddon.org[/email]. I am mailing the WotC administrators separately.
This was a way for me to find out if I should even consider to start building my Darksun mud. Considering Wizards never responded to this thread from almost 4 years ago, I went ahead with it. So obviously they don't care. So I didn't care.
Anyways I think this thread has had it's fair share of resurrection. Pointless, and no doubt Wizards probably doesn't give a **** about some text-based game using Darksun stuff.
:P
I'm past that immature stage in life for sure. But banning me for a thread like this is pretty immature too. That's just my opinion.
I'll swallow my pride and look on the brightside of it, I get to login to my mud more often now.
'I have to say they've got a cool logo. It looks good on the stuff they've got in their merchandise section. That's the fashion designer speaking...
Has there ever been any DS merchandise? Just curious how that looked like. Just thinking to do a spoof DS collection. But then I've almost started doing that when I was at fashion college...
(1999)
... although I somehow don't think that people would wear this kind of stuff for a stroll through their local town centre... maybe I should do a wearable collection after all
Lastard >8)'
Uhh. You're trying what now? I'm confused. Maybe make a new thread.
Lastard >8)
I don't think they can sell it. Because 4-5 authors total have all contributed to it.
I think that since thouse authors wrote their material for TSR and TSR paid them for their contributions. And WotC bought TSR, I think WotC corporation would be the one with the rights to do with Dark Sun as they pleased.
Anyone have any insights or rumors about the possability of someone buying it outright?
-J
BUT. Tolkien still owns the rights to ALL of his Intellectual Property, regardless, even now that he is dead. In his will it stated that all the rights would then pass to his children, whom each owned a certain % in Tolkien Inc.
Anyway you slice it, when you the author copyright something, even if you have it published through a publishing company. YOU still own the rights to that work.
Copyrighting something also lasts for almost 100 years by the way.
-D
TSR may have paid them for writing the stories and who knows all the others they had to pay to write the Wanderers Journal and all the rest of the original material.
BUT. Tolkien still owns the rights to ALL of his Intellectual Property, regardless, even now that he is dead. In his will it stated that all the rights would then pass to his children, whom each owned a certain % in Tolkien Inc.
Anyway you slice it, when you the author copyright something, even if you have it published through a publishing company. YOU still own the rights to that work.
Copyrighting something also lasts for almost 100 years by the way.
-D
I think the circumstances behind the writing of Lord of the Rings is alot different then the writing of Dark Sun material. You may be right that there is some residual rights for the original authors that needs to be considered, but the difference is Tolkeen wrote for himself and got published late in his life. Dark Sun was commissioned by TSR. I think it would be similar to the situation that Ravenloft had in '03 with another company. Anyone know how much Ravenloft went for?
-J
Apparently one of the setting's original creators has tried to buy the rights to Dark Sun (offering a wad of cash, if the rumors are correct), and so has a game company (AEG?). Both were turned down. WotC are still hanging on to the setting. Smart move, because it would be a strong seller and that's not something that it makes business sense to release to a rival, even if they never plan to re-release it themselves.
I wonder if athas.org's work is going to prevail in whatever revival AotC decides on?
When you write for WotC (or TSR) as a staffer, you don't own the product at all - it's the IP of the company that employs you. When you write for them as a freelancer, you sign away those rights in the same contract that gives you payment for your work. So in both cases, the IP for the setting belonged to TSR - and now WotC. It's a little different for artwork and comic strips, for example, but for written game material you don't have any IP rights to it as an author.
Apparently one of the setting's original creators has tried to buy the rights to Dark Sun (offering a wad of cash, if the rumors are correct), and so has a game company (AEG?). Both were turned down. WotC are still hanging on to the setting. Smart move, because it would be a strong seller and that's not something that it makes business sense to release to a rival, even if they never plan to re-release it themselves.
Honestly, I think persistance is the key. Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman were able to secure the ability to develop and procude written, published game materials for Dragonlance -- which is arguably a bit more popular of a setting than Dark Sun. WotC's control over the DS license, while loosening the Dragonlance one bears more scrutiny. Especially as they had let go of the Ravenloft one even earlier (and the terms of the Dragonlance IP were drastically affected by the results of what happened with Ravenloft).
What this tells me is... there's something going on in the background over Dark Sun that we aren't necessarily aware of. Being a strong seller or not seems to not be the issue -- Dragonlance is a strong seller. Giving the IP over to a rival also seems to not necessarily be an issue... because Ravenloft was given to White Wolf (well, Sword & Sorcery Studios), which is one of their biggest rivals; and Sovereign Press, Margaret Weis' publication company is also a rival (much lower-key). AEG primarily focuses on d20 products, and thus helps WotC's sales of their core rulebook (PHB), so are not necessarily a direct rival (well, especially compared to White Wolf).
Just have to respond here.
First, Delerak, my god. I've been playing a game with you for a decade, and I still can't get over your attitude.
Secondly, all of you people should be -glad- that there is a mud that is as close to Dark Sun as there is. It is a great environment and the game has spawned hundreds of unique plots and countless hours of entertainment. The staff that runs Armageddon doesn't make -****- off of it, and they have done a lot of hard work over the past decade.
Third, Armageddon has taken the initiative to remove all WoTC (and DIKU) IP from the game, now, which will allow them to write books, sell more merchandise, and actually make money off of -their- art. Are you all happy that there will no longer be any Dark Sun material on a quality MUD?
I came to this site looking for a Dark Sun beastiary so that I could start coming up with alternative fauna for the new Armageddon (animals that are -not- Dark Sun intellectual property), and was just amazed at Delerak's pettiness, and the hostility of this forum towards a -damn- good game.
I told people many times on Armageddon that they need to check into the IP of Darksun and no one ever listened to me. I ask a question 4 freaking years ago on these forums, and now everyone thinks I've been trying to sabotage the mud all this time.
Unreal. I can't believe the players are surprised I came here seeking opinions on the mud. And the god damn well-being of the mud by doing so.
Wow. Just have to respond here. First, Delerak, my god. I've been playing a game with you for a decade, and I still can't get over your attitude.
Welcome to the boards. Quite a first impression, seeing this is your first post. I fail to see what you have to gain from registering on these forums simply to attack a community member who apparently is a former member of your own community (check his post count - it´s 1)
Secondly, all of you people should be -glad- that there is a mud that is as close to Dark Sun as there is. It is a great environment and the game has spawned hundreds of unique plots and countless hours of entertainment. The staff that runs Armageddon doesn't make -****- off of it, and they have done a lot of hard work over the past decade.
Unlike Armageddon, there actually are online non-profit RPG projects that have permission from Wizards of the Coast to use Dark Sun setting material. We´re quite happy for these. It is not a matter of putting in hard work, it is a matter of legality. I am sure intellectual property pirates work hard too, but that doesn´t make their activities legal.
Third, Armageddon has taken the initiative to remove all WoTC (and DIKU) IP from the game, now, which will allow them to write books, sell more merchandise, and actually make money off of -their- art. Are you all happy that there will no longer be any Dark Sun material on a quality MUD?
Armageddon could have simply contacted Wizards of the Coast and avoided any discussions. David Jackson-Boyd did and got permission, so I fail to see why it was an issue for Armageddon. I don´t think most community members here personally have something against the Armageddon mud, but fact remains they have used intellectual property they did not have the rights for. It is good that Armageddon is cleaning out their closet. They have to, if they want to go commercial.
I came to this site looking for a Dark Sun beastiary so that I could start coming up with alternative fauna for the new Armageddon (animals that are -not- Dark Sun intellectual property), and was just amazed at Delerak's pettiness, and the hostility of this forum towards a -damn- good game.
You should take a look at Terrors of Athas and Terrors of the Dead Lands from athas.org. These are creatures you *cannot* use for your fauna, so that way you´ll know which creatures to stay away from.
Now I am not a copyright lawyer or anything, but announcing that you are coming to this board in hopes of finding material that you can in theory "rip-off" and then use it to make a new product to sell sounds like it could lead to problems.
Now I am not a copyright lawyer or anything, but announcing that you are coming to this board in hopes of finding material that you can in theory "rip-off" and then use it to make a new product to sell sounds like it could lead to problems.
Kathandrix, I said I was coming here to find out which animals were intellectual property of WoTC so I could -avoid- them. I want to know what creatures on Armageddon currently can stay. I'm certainly not interested in stealing -anyone's- ideas.
I don´t think most community members here personally have something against the Armageddon mud, but fact remains they have used intellectual property they did not have the rights for. It is good that Armageddon is cleaning out their closet. They have to, if they want to go commercial.
They used intellectual property as much as -every- gamer who has -ever- played in a Dark Sun setting.
That's all it is, people getting together to play a game. It is not a commercial venture. They sell t-shirts with -their- logo on them to help pay for the internet connection and machine upkeep.
You could call it a donation and a gift, if you want.
Between WoTC IP and DIKU licensing with the mud code, they are -extremely- limited in the ways they can raise money, and are (and may forever be) non-profit.
Armageddon mud isn't going to be a "commercial" effort, after the DIKU license and WoTC IP are gone, either. Just to clarify, I mean that people will be able to write books and such using their characters and the setting, and it will not be IP of WoTC because it's full of tembo, braxat, sorcerer-kings, and those fun-loving cannabalistic feral halflings.
Unlike Armageddon, there actually are online non-profit RPG projects that have permission from Wizards of the Coast to use Dark Sun setting material. We´re quite happy for these. It is not a matter of putting in hard work, it is a matter of legality. I am sure intellectual property pirates work hard too, but that doesn´t make their activities legal.
Jon, Oracle, Whatever... This is the kind of hostility I'm talking about. You just -assume- that Armageddon never spoke with WoTC (or TSR before them). What if Armageddon -did- have contact with the Intellectual Property owners of Dark Sun at various times over the past 15 years, would you change your tune?
The original -teenagers- who made the game based it -heavily- on Dark Sun. Over the past -decade- there has been a complete staff change, and countless non-Dark Sun elements have been added, evolving the game into the unique and beautiful beast it is today. I might add that in those past ten years there have been little to -no- new additions to the game that have anything to do with Dark Sun.
The Dark Sun chapter of Armageddon is ending. Soon all of the Dark Sun elements will be removed in some sort of catastrophe, and time will be moved forward to a world without WoTC IP.
I would like to ask the forum to give Armageddon a shot, while it's still related to Dark Sun at all. Maybe you will find that it is a quality game, with great staff and great stories. That way you can all get addicted, and we need all the players we can get to flesh this world out. There are only a few months worth of the Dark Sun material left. Come witness it!
Anyhow. Perhaps I will find a thread appropriate to the information I seek, and post again... Maybe I will merely lurk forevermore.
Either way, Peace.
Jon, Oracle, Whatever... This is the kind of hostility I'm talking about. You just -assume- that Armageddon never spoke with WoTC (or TSR before them). What if Armageddon -did- have contact with the Intellectual Property owners of Dark Sun at various times over the past 15 years, would you change your tune?
I was using hyperbole, not calling the Armageddon staff intellectual property pirates, but I see that my statement could be interpreted as such and thus be labeled hostile. It is irrelevant whether Armageddon contacted Wizards of the Coast if they did not receive permission to use the IP - and do not have it today.
If the Armageddon staff could provide us with a copy of the contract they have with WotC, which includes WotC granting them permission to use Dark Sun intellectual property for their MUD, then that would be a different matter. I suspect they cannot, since I *assume* such a contract does not exist.
As for changing tone, if you would like to be an active part in this community, then avoiding attacking its members in your first posts would be a good start. Addressing me as "Whatever" does not lend credibility to the content of your post, nor does it invalidate my points. Peace. ;)
And then there are the people who write Dark Sun stuff and/or have negotiated access to using the materials and feel surprised/shocked that someone is doing what they perceive as a 'rip-off' of these things.
I think these are two different philosophical positions. So you can't draw the line between right and wrong here that easily. Both positions do what they do out of the same premise, it seems.
Lastard >8)
Hmh, I can understand both positions. So there are people who have created a game out of enthusiasm for Dark Sun - and they are surprised that their way of keeping Dark Sun alive is not accepted by other Dark Sun fans.
I can see it from that point of view, but my stance has as much to do with the way people present their case. This discussion is actually several years old. The reason it has been brought up again is because psionic_fungus signed up and introduced himself with a personal attack on Delerak. This has been the approach of most people speaking in favor of the Armageddon Mud that I have witnessed, which is a shame, as it doesn´t contribute to a constructive atmosphere. I don´t know Delerak personally, but he certainly seems to act in a more amicable manner.
And then there are the people who write Dark Sun stuff and/or have negotiated access to using the materials and feel surprised/shocked that someone is doing what they perceive as a 'rip-off' of these things.
I am not surprised at all that someone would like to incorporate Dark Sun elements in a game, movie, book, art or anything else. In fact, I support such projects as long as they are done by the book. Unless you want to risk Wizards of the Coast cancelling all fan agreements, there are certain rules and processes that must be abided.
I think these are two different philosophical positions. So you can't draw the line between right and wrong here that easily. Both positions do what they do out of the same premise, it seems.
As a musician you probably can relate well to positions on intellectual property rights. That can actually be rather black/white. Either you use intellectual property rights within a legal frame or you do it illegally.
By the way, often the legally purchased rights are the most worrying as they are often not directed by creative intentions, but by commercial reasons: how often has a good song (especially dead people's songs) been abused by advertising and has ended up with a stigma attached to it (nina simone and car advertising? tchaikovsky and yoghurt?) and do you remember how michael jackson purchased the beatles song rights against their will or companies buying other companies to run rivals into the ground?
i am not writing this as an attack here, just to blur the black and white a bit ;)
If the Armageddon staff could provide us with a copy of the contract they have with WotC, which includes WotC granting them permission to use Dark Sun intellectual property for their MUD, then that would be a different matter. I suspect they cannot, since I *assume* such a contract does not exist.
My memory might not be the best, but this is how I remember things:
In 1997, when WoTC bought TSR there was a lot of worry around the Armageddon community about what that would mean for the game, as far as intellectual property issues are concerned. After a bunch of needless stress, information was found on WoTC's website's FAQ stating that use for MUDs and other games of a non-commercial nature was fair.
Why would you seek a contract for something that is declared fair use?
It's just assumed that it's still fair use to run a game with the setting (or elements of the setting) as long as you're not selling it.
Now, I can't find -any- information about what is considered fair use on the current website, but it's been a -decade- since then.
Also, as far as Delerak, he was young, yes, but from what I know he was using -stolen- code from the game in question to try to set up his own game, and was trying to use this forum to shut-down Armageddon, thus eliminating his competition.
Weak sauce, and his petty attacks contaminated the view of potential players towards what is still a damn good Dark Sun adaptation.
What if the first time you had heard about the game it had been a -positive- view instead of a negative one?
Hey! There's this really cool text-based game I found that is adapted from Dark Sun. It has Muls, Sorcerer-Kings, Gith, and... Everything! The staff is focused on providing a quality roleplaying environment and the players are great! You guys should really check it out, because it's the best MUD I've ever seen, and I've tried out hundreds!
My memory might not be the best, but this is how I remember things: In 1997, when WoTC bought TSR there was a lot of worry around the Armageddon community about what that would mean for the game, as far as intellectual property issues are concerned. After a bunch of needless stress, information was found on WoTC's website's FAQ stating that use for MUDs and other games of a non-commercial nature was fair.
Not to sound harsh, but without written proof, it will be difficult to validate your recollection of the events surrounding the old FAQ. Conditions may have been altered since then, as well.
Why would you seek a contract for something that is declared fair use?
There are other online Dark Sun game projects that have dealt with the Wizard of the Coast and Hasbro legal departments. I have been provided with a copy of such a contract, and it was quite an effort that was put in to get the papers in order. If it had been fair to use the Dark Sun IP all along, then why would the process be so tedious?
It's just assumed that it's still fair use to run a game with the setting (or elements of the setting) as long as you're not selling it.
I hope you don´t mind me asking, but why then are the Armageddon staff removing the Dark Sun elements?
Also, as far as Delerak, he was young, yes, but from what I know he was using -stolen- code from the game in question to try to set up his own game, and was trying to use this forum to shut-down Armageddon, thus eliminating his competition.
Unless you can prove these claims by solid evidence, I will continue to label them as speculation and personal attacks.
What if the first time you had heard about the game it had been a -positive- view instead of a negative one?
My stance would still be the same concerning the need for abiding by rules and processes for fan creations based off WotC IP. Like I said earlier, I am happy to support Dark Sun fan games, as long as they are done by the book. If policies were different 10 years ago, then the legal situation may have been different as well. However, the rules of today are what we have to contend with now, and contracts have become the standard.
Not to sound harsh, but without written proof, it will be difficult to validate your recollection of the events surrounding the old FAQ. Conditions may have been altered since then, as well.
No doubt. I'm just letting you know how I remember things happening a -decade- ago. Obviously things change.
Keep in mind that MUDs were very popular then, one of the only online gaming communities, and certainly the most popular of them. There were Forgotten Realms MUDs, Dragonlance MUDs, and even Spelljammer MUDs... It was probably a lot easier back then to just say "Everyone, as long as it is a free game, we don't care what you use."
I hope you don´t mind me asking, but why then are the Armageddon staff removing the Dark Sun elements?
I'm sure they are tired of this issue popping up every few years, and after a -decade- of writing they have decided that they want to actually own the material they are creating. Many of the staff are writers, and it wouldn't suprise me if they wanted to market stories from the game commercially in the future.
If policies were different 10 years ago, then the legal situation may have been different as well. However, the rules of today are what we have to contend with now, and contracts have become the standard.
Indeed. And perhaps that's another good reason to get away from Dark Sun. The staff of Armageddon has said that this is their choice, however, and there is no legal pressure, or pressure of any kind, from WoTC to shut down or remove Dark Sun materials.
Anyhow. I still haven't found the material I was looking for about fauna. The Terrors of Athas pdf seems like a good start, though... It seems to be missing some fauna I thought was from Dark Sun (Sunback Lizards)? I may start another thread with a list of Arm's fauna, asking specifically for people to eliminate Dark Sun material...
That's cool, right?
In theory everything posted at various DS sites around the net that isn't official Athas.org stufff would be illegal but it either isn't or WoTC realises that they are no threat to their bottom line and would choose their legal battles carefully. By its nature RPGs tend to be largly homebrewed affairs and the net is just someplace to share ideas or even play games. Not sure if WoTC would even own the legal right to things like Kanks or Mekilots as plenty of fanatasy creatures have entered generic use and they're not exactly iconic to the D&D brand like say an Illithid.
Anyhow. I still haven't found the material I was looking for about fauna. The Terrors of Athas pdf seems like a good start, though... It seems to be missing some fauna I thought was from Dark Sun (Sunback Lizards)? I may start another thread with a list of Arm's fauna, asking specifically for people to eliminate Dark Sun material...
That's cool, right?
Sure thing! Regarding sunback lizards, I can´t recall ever seeing a reference to such a creature.