Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 saurstalk Jul 14, 2003 16:57:36	I'm drawing this event from the Blood Wars trilogy. My players' characters are close to a crossroads of sorts that could easily send them down this road. I know that eventually they'll need to find their way out, or else they will whither away against the fall. The problem: how to calculate damage from such a constant fall. d6 per day? d6 per hour? d20 per day? What? I imagine that they will have a few run-ins during this fall and eventually find the corpse of a dead demon careening into the depths of this endless drop. On that corpse - salvation - a book of portals. Sound familiar? (If you read the trilogy, it should!) Anyhow, any assistance you can provide would be most useful. Thanks!
#2 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jul 14, 2003 18:21:22	Ugh, for as much as Planescape rocked, the Bloodwars trilogy was simply one of the worst takes on a setting EVER. All of the novels stank and did not do the planes justice, at all. While I also think that Pages of Pain was actually a decent book, you have to treat it as utterly seperate from Planescape to appreciate it since it makes the mortal sin of trying to explain Her Dread Majesty. Unforgivable...
#3 saurstalk Jul 14, 2003 18:24:19	Well, I'm not trying to pass judgment. I'm simply trying to integrate certain themes and/or environments into my campaign that I thought would be fun for the characters to encounter. The Lady's maze is another that comes to mind. So, back to it - trying to devise how to institute the falling effects from the 665th lair?
#4 the_dm-s_revenge Jul 14, 2003 21:20:35	What level are these characters? Because a near infinite fall should do at least 20d6+ damage....that's a lot... you could just ask for a Fort save. If they save they take all but 1 hp of damage to each character, and then give them a bunch of subdual damage on top of that.... if they fail, well it was a really long fall....bye bye.
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2003 23:31:23	I think some things shoud be played out without resorting to mechanics. Truly, a fall from anything more than a few stories will have a 80% likelyhood of instant death on impact. A fall from higher than 8 stories has a 50% chance or so of the victim suffering a fatal heart attack on the way down, with the chances of death on impact risng significantly. A fall from, say 665 atmospheric heights, say 7 miles each, give or take, for a grand total of 5,320 miles . . . yup, no rules could do it justice. You either kill them off (as its rightly so under any aspect of realism), or just wing it with fantasy (as is rightly so under any aspect of fairness). Damaging the characters but not killing them rather seems to trivialize the whole descent itself. Resorting to some 'miraculous way to save the players as only a good Planescape DM sould do' would probably be the better route.
#6 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jul 15, 2003 0:29:32	Out of curiousity, where's the source of the 665th layer of the Abyss being a bottomless void? And if it's bottomless, where's there a ground for the PC's to eventually hit? Each layer is infinate, and so the void would simply have them fall forever unless they got picked off by some flying Tanar'ri or floating debris in the void perhaps, or died of thirst or starvation. If you fall into the void of the 665th layer, its not like you'll hit the 666th layer... *confused*
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 16, 2003 15:40:55	Now, I'm not much of a physicist, but once you reached terminal velocity wouldn't you stop getting an extra 1d6 damage per 5 ft. fallen? After all, you're going as fast as you can. Of course, I don't know how fast it would take you to reach terminal velocity, so I'm not really any use at all. *Feels insignificant* :sad: ;)
#8 saurstalk Jul 16, 2003 18:12:05	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Out of curiousity, where's the source of the 665th layer of the Abyss being a bottomless void? And if it's bottomless, where's there a ground for the PC's to eventually hit? Each layer is infinate, and so the void would simply have them fall forever unless they got picked off by some flying Tanar'ri or floating debris in the void perhaps, or died of thirst or starvation. If you fall into the void of the 665th layer, its not like you'll hit the 666th layer... *confused* In the first book of the Blood Wars trilogy (or was it the second?), the main characters and their party went through a portal into the 665th lair of the abyss and fell. The lair was described as a bottomless void. The only way the characters survived a prolonged exposure to the fall, i.e., wind, stress, fatigue, etc., was to land on the back of a large oversized dead demon. Whilst on the back, they could rest, recuperate and figure ways out. (Eventually, they escape through a book of portals . . . the book itself being a portal.) So, in effect, these PCs will never hit bottom. But there must be a point where the fall becomes, first, stressful, then, unduly stressful, then, life-threatening. I'm simply trying to figure out how this would play game-wise. I want them to feel the pressure of the fall and the dire need to escape, without obviously killing them outright. (Actually, while I want the fall to be fairly serious, I wouldn't want this to be so life-threatening that the environment I 'put' them in could end them right there. I.e., it may turn out that they have no choice but to go through the portal and into the abyss. As for hitting ground . . . there is no ground. So, ground can't kill them. The fall could. Also, during the fall, I'd need to figure out how to do concentration checks on spells. So, this is where I'm at.
#9 Thailfi Jul 18, 2003 8:07:29	Why would falling itself become life threatening? People do it for kicks all the time. After a while I would imagine the realization that they will never hit bottom would sink in. Then falling would probably get boring. The anxiety would be generated by the worry about how to escape.
#10 saurstalk Jul 18, 2003 9:44:28	Originally posted by Thailfi Why would falling itself become life threatening? People do it for kicks all the time. After a while I would imagine the realization that they will never hit bottom would sink in. Then falling would probably get boring. The anxiety would be generated by the worry about how to escape. Okay, I've never leapt from great heights - planes, choppers or even bungee jumping for the matter. The highest I've jumped from was a 50 ft. cliff at the quarry from the movie Breaking Away. As such, I couldn't tell you what it'd be like to free fall for great lengths of time. However, I can imagine that the sheer constance of falling and all its associated variables, including body tension to control a fall, wind sheer, and the like, would eventually lead someone to a point of exhaustion. Likewise, to be blasted by wind for gross amount of time would at first chafe the skin and then eventually possibly rub the skin raw and produce wounds. Also, there's the issue of people dehydrating. And I could imagine that eating and drinking at such velocities would be quite problematic. Of course, I doubt these thoughts could ever be tested unless there really were a 665th lair of the Abyss in which it could be tested. (I could also imagine that the constant mental stress associated with falling and wondering when you're going to hit bottom would equally lead to fatigue.) So, in effect, you'd be looking at subdual damage occurring first, and that it'd occur over a period of time. Eventually, once subdual damage equals the actual hps, people'd begin to suffer from actual damage. My thought is that the fall would, over time, produce a constant dwindling of hit points, lead to fatigue, and so forth. My problem is figuring out how to reproduce this in game so that it'd seem "realistic." P.S. I can't see this sort of fall as ever "getting boring," especially with all the constant stressors I've noted. If anything, I see the possibility that people could likely collapse from exhaustion during the fall and plummet into unconsciousness. (This may also be a variable to introduce.)
#11 zombiegleemax Jul 19, 2003 2:42:37	Note that there's a very, very big difference between a controlled fall (skydiving, bunjie jumping, etc.) and a not so controlled fall (oops, I fell off a cliff). The first is exhilerating thrill knowing that there's only a chance of pain or death and perhaps a slim one at that depending on your confidence. The second is the imminent threat of pain and death. A very, very big difference. No amount of self confidence can over ride the survival instinct completely. Hence, people who realize that their parachute doesn't open or that their bunjie cord just snapped often times suffer a heart attack during the fall, even if they survive the landing. And these are people who jump often with confidence. Those who have fallen from great heights (planes and such) in an uncontrolled circumstance will still flail about the entire way down, grabbing at nothing but air, even if the jump lasts for 45 seconds or more. Instinct kicks in and over rides the common sense and rational ability of most normal people.
#12 saurstalk Jul 23, 2003 12:26:34	So, mechanically, I need to devise: 1.) An initial shock effect once the fall begins. Note one problem with this is that this lair of the abyss is void of light. (If I go with the books description - every being in this lair looks as if they do in broad daylight, i.e., well-lit, but surrounded by absolute blackness.) Hence, they won't see ground. They'll just feel the plummet. 2.) After recovery, assuming someone doesn't die of a heart attack, then we start to deal with fatigue, wind burns, dehydration, etc. I'll need to calculate stages of effect into this, as well as damage incurred. Also, I'll need to account for spells like fly, feather fall or levitation, the natural ability to fly, like with an avariel, and the sheer constance of the fall. . . . so, back to square one.
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 24, 2003 17:01:26	I think d6 per day sounds very reasonable. We're talking about the damage incurred by the constant pressure of wind resistance, but there are some other variables you might want to consider. Is gravity in the 665th layer of the Abyss about average? If there is a stronger or weaker pull of gravity, the terminal velocity of falling objects would raise or lower respectively, thus wind resistence would be affected. Are there very powerful gusts of wind (in either or both directions) that could effect the speed or even direction of the fall? Are there walls or jags to crash into? Are there significant changes in temperature? Is the air ever toxic? If I were going to run this, I would fill the layer with hurricane-type weather, acrid (if not acidic) rain, toxic clouds of gas, and sharp shards of stone or volcanic glass to keep the PCs from getting too comfortable. Just my two cents.
#14 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 3:41:39	Out of interest did you run this scenario, and if so, how did you go?
#15 primemover003 Oct 31, 2003 15:11:33	Actually in a game sense I would find this layer extremely boring as a player unless there was some sort of story element involved. Why is your Party on layer 665? For the mechanics I would look into the Plane of Air, minus the subjective gravity traits. Unless I miss my guess this plane wasn't specifically mentioned in the Book of Chaos but it was a suggestion for a layer. I think it would be a good layer, but only if you are there for a tangible reason.
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 31, 2003 18:32:23	Originally posted by solomanii Out of interest did you run this scenario, and if so, how did you go? Unfortunately, this campaign went to the DM's graveyard. We were a small group of three, then went down to two, and come January, the last player will be joining the Army. So, it's collecting dust right now until I can get a new group started. As for primemover003's comments, this was a way-station of sorts. The group wouldn't have been there long, but would have needed to find a way out before dying of fatigue from the fall. As for other comments about terrain - there is none. It's just blackness to fall through.