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Ur-Flan

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 16, 2003 12:16:53 Information on the dark arts practiced by the Ur-Flan, or the Ur-Flan themselves, seems scarce.

The Living Gazeteer mentions very little about them.

The other Greyhawk sources I have contain nothing on the Ur-Flan at all.
I couldn't find anything on the subject at Canonfire either.

Know of any sources pertaining to the Ur-Flan?
#2
zombiegleemax
Jul 17, 2003 20:38:17 I think that the Ur-Flan were a tribe of the Flan people that were the ones that had a yuong and ambitous man named Vecna born into them. The rest as they say, is history.
#3
eric_anondson
Jul 17, 2003 22:49:54
Originally posted by Necrodancer
Know of any sources pertaining to the Ur-Flan?

I believe the original source to mention the Ur-Flan is the unpublished Ivid the Undying, by Carl Sargent. It mentions them quite a bit, as a matter of fact.

Eric Anondson
#4
grodog
Jul 18, 2003 0:23:37 Here are Jason Zavoda's index entries on the ur-Flan:

Ur-Flan [PPL]
DRG#208 Pg# - 54
DRG#291 Pg# - 92,95
DRG#293 Pg# - 90
DRG#294 Pg# - 96
IVID
LGG Pg# - 5,23,34,146,157,161
LGJ#1 Pg# - 29
LGJ#3 Pg# - 15,27
LGJ#4 Pg# - 7

As you can see, there's not a lot of material out there....
#5
zombiegleemax
Jul 18, 2003 1:35:42 Wow, I always thought I was just missing the book or adventure that gave more detailed info on the Ur-Flan. My old DM never really did anything with them, but I always wanted to delve a little into the Ur-Flan history and such. Thanks for the index list Grodog.
#6
grodog
Jul 19, 2003 20:50:15 De nada. It's all Jason's effort, I'm just the messenger :D
#7
zombiegleemax
Jul 20, 2003 18:00:06 Some GTers have detailed the Ur-Flan Maybe they were the Horned Ones who may have been of (or predated?) the Old Faith? Maybe the Ur-Flan were the first necromancers and demonologists, who strayed far from the bosom of Beory and whose fell creations and summonings blighted the Oerth Mother? Maybe Vecna and Acererak were both Ur-Flan? The ur-priest of the Book of Vile Darkness may be suggestive too.

Interpretations of the Ur-Flan should be sensitive to the meaning of the prefix. "Ur" means "original" or "prototypical" and is German in origin. I'm not a linguist, so I don't know if this word's etymology connects it to the ancient city of "Sumer in southern Mesopotamia on a site in present-day southeast Iraq." See Dictionary.com/ur, at http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ur. While I know relatively little about ancient Ur, the idea of moon/night worship and/or nocturnal activity seems useful.

Finally, literary critics use ur- as a concept when analyzing Goethe's Faust, which (like many art-works) existed in several different drafts (like Greyhawk?).
#8
extempus
Feb 12, 2006 2:47:50 Maybe it's meant in the same vein as Thomas Covenant's title of Ur-lord...
#9
Mortepierre
Feb 12, 2006 3:04:36 I've always imagined them as a caste of Flan spellcasters which began as druids but slowly evolved into druids-sorcerers and, finally, turned into conjurers-necromancers.

Once, looooooong ago, they probably worshipped Beory but got greedy with the powers she bestowed upon them. Since they weren't willing to lose their powers, they searched for ways to take from Beory what she used to give them willingly (hence the Ur-Priest PrC). What they found was Oerthmagic and it only got worse from there.

Amusingly, when I ran recently the LG Clipping Wings adventure, I was surprised to find the author had apparently had a similar idea (though his own interpretation was innovative to say the least).

I find intriguing the concept of Pact magic (as described in the soon-to-be-published Tome of Magic) and vestiges. Is Vecna's "Serpent" a vestige? It could go a long way toward explaining a few things...
#10
extempus
Feb 12, 2006 3:34:01 There is this intriguing line in the LGG (p. 34):

Legend says that the numerous mounds and standing stones throughtout the archbarony were created by the Northern Adepts of Old Blackmoor (presumably a cabal of Ur-Flan sorcerers) to constrain the encroaching Black Ice.

IMC, the Land of Black Ice was created by a magic-techno disaster of some sort, apparently centered in Rigodruok, the Rainbow Vale (aka the City of the Gods). The adventurers don't know it yet, but the surviving Flan wizards actually did create the standing stones some 2,000 years ago to prevent the ice from spreading farther south. Perhaps "Ur-Flan" in this instance means that their particular civilization was based on both magic and technology...
#11
OleOneEye
Feb 13, 2006 1:12:05 I have always viewed the Flan pantheon as being based on a Good vs. Evil paradigm. Pelor and Rao were in continual warfare against the depredations of Nerull. Those Flan that followed the good gods were they typical Flan. Those that followed Nerull were the Ur-Flan. Of course, all happened under the auspices of Beory, for she is omnipresent.
#12
crag
Feb 13, 2006 20:08:58 Canonfire has an several articles on the Ur-flan, including GVD's extermely interesting take on the philosophy of the Ur-flan as well as their future plans.

The Return of the Ur-Flan Pt1
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=484

The Return of the Ur-Flan Pt 2
www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=483

Enjoy!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 16, 2003 12:16:53	Information on the dark arts practiced by the Ur-Flan, or the Ur-Flan themselves, seems scarce. The Living Gazeteer mentions very little about them. The other Greyhawk sources I have contain nothing on the Ur-Flan at all. I couldn't find anything on the subject at Canonfire either. Know of any sources pertaining to the Ur-Flan?
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 17, 2003 20:38:17	I think that the Ur-Flan were a tribe of the Flan people that were the ones that had a yuong and ambitous man named Vecna born into them. The rest as they say, is history.
#3 eric_anondson Jul 17, 2003 22:49:54	Originally posted by Necrodancer Know of any sources pertaining to the Ur-Flan? I believe the original source to mention the Ur-Flan is the unpublished Ivid the Undying, by Carl Sargent. It mentions them quite a bit, as a matter of fact. Eric Anondson
#4 grodog Jul 18, 2003 0:23:37	Here are Jason Zavoda's index entries on the ur-Flan: Ur-Flan [PPL] DRG#208 Pg# - 54 DRG#291 Pg# - 92,95 DRG#293 Pg# - 90 DRG#294 Pg# - 96 IVID LGG Pg# - 5,23,34,146,157,161 LGJ#1 Pg# - 29 LGJ#3 Pg# - 15,27 LGJ#4 Pg# - 7 As you can see, there's not a lot of material out there....
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2003 1:35:42	Wow, I always thought I was just missing the book or adventure that gave more detailed info on the Ur-Flan. My old DM never really did anything with them, but I always wanted to delve a little into the Ur-Flan history and such. Thanks for the index list Grodog.
#6 grodog Jul 19, 2003 20:50:15	De nada. It's all Jason's effort, I'm just the messenger :D
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 20, 2003 18:00:06	Some GTers have detailed the Ur-Flan Maybe they were the Horned Ones who may have been of (or predated?) the Old Faith? Maybe the Ur-Flan were the first necromancers and demonologists, who strayed far from the bosom of Beory and whose fell creations and summonings blighted the Oerth Mother? Maybe Vecna and Acererak were both Ur-Flan? The ur-priest of the Book of Vile Darkness may be suggestive too. Interpretations of the Ur-Flan should be sensitive to the meaning of the prefix. "Ur" means "original" or "prototypical" and is German in origin. I'm not a linguist, so I don't know if this word's etymology connects it to the ancient city of "Sumer in southern Mesopotamia on a site in present-day southeast Iraq." See Dictionary.com/ur, at http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ur. While I know relatively little about ancient Ur, the idea of moon/night worship and/or nocturnal activity seems useful. Finally, literary critics use ur- as a concept when analyzing Goethe's Faust, which (like many art-works) existed in several different drafts (like Greyhawk?).
#8 extempus Feb 12, 2006 2:47:50	Maybe it's meant in the same vein as Thomas Covenant's title of Ur-lord...
#9 Mortepierre Feb 12, 2006 3:04:36	I've always imagined them as a caste of Flan spellcasters which began as druids but slowly evolved into druids-sorcerers and, finally, turned into conjurers-necromancers. Once, looooooong ago, they probably worshipped Beory but got greedy with the powers she bestowed upon them. Since they weren't willing to lose their powers, they searched for ways to take from Beory what she used to give them willingly (hence the Ur-Priest PrC). What they found was Oerthmagic and it only got worse from there. Amusingly, when I ran recently the LG Clipping Wings adventure, I was surprised to find the author had apparently had a similar idea (though his own interpretation was innovative to say the least). I find intriguing the concept of Pact magic (as described in the soon-to-be-published Tome of Magic) and vestiges. Is Vecna's "Serpent" a vestige? It could go a long way toward explaining a few things...
#10 extempus Feb 12, 2006 3:34:01	There is this intriguing line in the LGG (p. 34): Legend says that the numerous mounds and standing stones throughtout the archbarony were created by the Northern Adepts of Old Blackmoor (presumably a cabal of Ur-Flan sorcerers) to constrain the encroaching Black Ice. IMC, the Land of Black Ice was created by a magic-techno disaster of some sort, apparently centered in Rigodruok, the Rainbow Vale (aka the City of the Gods). The adventurers don't know it yet, but the surviving Flan wizards actually did create the standing stones some 2,000 years ago to prevent the ice from spreading farther south. Perhaps "Ur-Flan" in this instance means that their particular civilization was based on both magic and technology...
#11 OleOneEye Feb 13, 2006 1:12:05	I have always viewed the Flan pantheon as being based on a Good vs. Evil paradigm. Pelor and Rao were in continual warfare against the depredations of Nerull. Those Flan that followed the good gods were they typical Flan. Those that followed Nerull were the Ur-Flan. Of course, all happened under the auspices of Beory, for she is omnipresent.
#12 crag Feb 13, 2006 20:08:58	Canonfire has an several articles on the Ur-flan, including GVD's extermely interesting take on the philosophy of the Ur-flan as well as their future plans. The Return of the Ur-Flan Pt1 http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=484 The Return of the Ur-Flan Pt 2 www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=483 Enjoy!