What book or books is the High God mentioned in, and could some people just fill me in on what the High God is in general?
Thanks for you help.
~Silvan
chaos is the other half of the high god.
i have more, esoteric theories, but i'll save that.
Originally posted by talinthas
chaos is the other half of the high god.
That's true according to almost every single source except the Appendix.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
That's true according to almost every single source except the Appendix.
Every source I've seen prior to Summer Flame does not personify Chaos. They generally say that the world was formed out of chaos, but that has nothing to do with the entity Chaos.
To my knowledge, the ONLY source that lists both the High God and Chaos together is the appendix to Dragons of a Vanished Moon.
The question then lies on how Chaos and the High God interreact. Is Chaos a lesser deity than the High God, as mentioned in the appendix to Dragons of a Vanished Moon? Or is Chaos the balancing factor to the High God? Does the High God represent Law?
The question then lies on how Chaos and the High God interreact. Is Chaos a lesser deity than the High God, as mentioned in the appendix to Dragons of a Vanished Moon? Or is Chaos the balancing factor to the High God? Does the High God represent Law?
Now this might be a totally whack theory (and it probably is, you are quite free to throw a shoe at me for coming up with it) but here goes:
What if Chaos is the father of all and nothing? What if he is the High God? How you ask?
Chaos is Mr.Hyde to the High God's Doctor Jekyll (or the Hulk to Banner) The same person, just a different persona. Or, going even farther along the same line of reasoning, maybe they are an actual split persona. Maybe the High God was originally both the essence of ultimate law and ultimate chaos. When Reorx took the essence of chaos when creating the Greygem, somehow the two parts of the same being split up, and two separate beings were formed (perhaps because of some property of the gem, after all it did keep a god trapped inside it). Then when the Irda broke the gem, Reorx recognized Chaos as a part of the High God, the very mad and angry part, and thus called him the father. Chaos being vanquished at the end of the Summer Flame could have meant that the law side of the High God found some way to merge the two back together again with help from the influence of the gem at the very end. Takhisis somehow found out about the law part trying regain his chaos part, and took advantage of the situation thus born where she was free to return to Krynn because Chaos, and any deal made with him, no longer existed (or rather now existed as part of a greater entity). She of course would never have revealed any of this to the other gods.
I told you, whack. ;)
(and lastly) could someone explain to me what was in the appendix?
If I could get my hands on the neck of the person who had that bright idea, I'd...
I wanted to read it
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Every source I've seen prior to Summer Flame does not personify Chaos. They generally say that the world was formed out of chaos, but that has nothing to do with the entity Chaos.
DoSF makes the connection saying that what was once referred to as chaos (lowercase) was actually Chaos (and every SAGA product thereafter). But see my next comment.
To my knowledge, the ONLY source that lists both the High God and Chaos together is the appendix to Dragons of a Vanished Moon.
The appendix presents Chaos as just another god, more powerful perhaps but certainly not in the same league as the High God. The Appendix mentions there were 22 gods in the beginning, including Chaos but leaving out the High God. That's what I was commenting on: Talinthas' mention that Chaos is generally regarded as the other side of the same coin High God symbolises. Something greater (and alien) than Paladine, Takhisis and the other gods. This is true everywhere except in the Appendix since it goes such great lengths to make Chaos more like Paladine & co. and much less like the High God.
The question then lies on how Chaos and the High God interreact. Is Chaos a lesser deity than the High God, as mentioned in the appendix to Dragons of a Vanished Moon? Or is Chaos the balancing factor to the High God? Does the High God represent Law?
These are great questions; made somewhat more difficult to answer with the contradiction between the Appendix and what came before. If you view the Appendix as it is presented, an in-world treatise on the creation of the world, no better or worse than the other creation myths then things get easier. Here's my view:
In the beginning Universe is chaos. The High God comes and begins changing the substance of the universe towards Law (so a world can be created). The chaos (lowercase) is infused with the divine energies of the High God's changes and becomes self-aware, it becomes Chaos.
In many aspects Chaos becomes the nemesis of the High God, destroying what the High God created, fostering anarchy and disorder. But in the grand scheme of things, Chaos is an entity as alien as the High God and not so easily catalogued in an axis of law-chaos. There is a plan and order in the anarchy of Chaos. There is randomness and latitude in the plan of the High God. They are not the same (as DoSF implied) but two sides of the same coin.
Because the other gods were brought by the High God they tend towards his "side" against Chaos. As powerful as Chaos is, it senses ultimate destruction so he lets himself be captured by Reorx into the greygem (how else could Reorx do it - even the Appendix says how Scared Reorx was ). Also, There is another shore you know, upon the other side... supports the theory that Chaos planned this all along.
Summer of Chaos, Irda let him out. He resumes his plan for the destruction of the universe. Saving his strength and amassing magical energies inside the greygem Chaos is now more powerful than all the 21 gods or so he thinks. He underestimates mortals and is ultimately defeated by them.
In the confusion, takhisis steals the world and the rest is history (or present depending on your point of view).
Originally posted by jonesy
Chaos is Mr.Hyde to the High God's Doctor Jekyll (or the Hulk to Banner) The same person, just a different persona. Or, going even farther along the same line of reasoning, maybe they are an actual split persona. Maybe the High God was originally both the essence of ultimate law and ultimate chaos. When Reorx took the essence of chaos when creating the Greygem, somehow the two parts of the same being split up, and two separate beings were formed (perhaps because of some property of the gem, after all it did keep a god trapped inside it). Then when the Irda broke the gem, Reorx recognized Chaos as a part of the High God, the very mad and angry part, and thus called him the father. Chaos being vanquished at the end of the Summer Flame could have meant that the law side of the High God found some way to merge the two back together again with help from the influence of the gem at the very end. Takhisis somehow found out about the law part trying regain his chaos part, and took advantage of the situation thus born where she was free to return to Krynn because Chaos, and any deal made with him, no longer existed (or rather now existed as part of a greater entity). She of course would never have revealed any of this to the other gods.
I told you, whack. ;)
You'd be surprised actually. DoSF so heavily implied this that a great deal of fans thought this was true. Eventually MWeis and THickman said that was not the intent and that the High God and Chaos were not the same (I believe you can find plenty of instances where Tracy says this on the Q&A part of his newsletter).
True or false, it does make sense even if the High God/Chaos's ultimate goal must be a great unknown then.
Chaos was pricked. The gem was sealed. The gem detonated, and....
Chaos, the 20 remaining gods, and Raistlin are standing in the middle of nowhere (no relation to the book) completely dumb f*****.
The big C-man must have known Krynn was not destroyed and probably informed the others that Him didn't do it. But where did Him go? Did Him just shrug, laugh at them, and/or just pranced off into the sunless-set? Did Him begin a search for the High God to get back the 5 steel He owned Him? And with Krynn back into play, did Chaos sneak back in to goof up the works later?
It'd b stupid if Chaos got free again. It'd b like a crappy cartoon where the evil guy appears 25 times and a half only to b defeated by the heroes again and again and again.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
The appendix presents Chaos as just another god, more powerful perhaps but certainly not in the same league as the High God. The Appendix mentions there were 22 gods in the beginning, including Chaos but leaving out the High God. That's what I was commenting on: Talinthas' mention that Chaos is generally regarded as the other side of the same coin High God symbolises. Something greater (and alien) than Paladine, Takhisis and the other gods. This is true everywhere except in the Appendix since it goes such great lengths to make Chaos more like Paladine & co. and much less like the High God.
Huh. I didn't quite see it like that, but I understand where you're coming from.
I'm not sure how I feel about the High God and Chaos. On the one hand, I like the Law/Chaos axis correlation. On the other, I sort of like the appendix representation to a degree. I guess I do see the High God as the most powerful of them all.
*shrugs*
I think this will be one of those debates where there will never be a clear answer.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
DoSF makes the connection saying that what was once referred to as chaos (lowercase) was actually Chaos (and every SAGA product thereafter). But see my next comment.
The appendix presents Chaos as just another god, more powerful perhaps but certainly not in the same league as the High God. The Appendix mentions there were 22 gods in the beginning, including Chaos but leaving out the High God. That's what I was commenting on: Talinthas' mention that Chaos is generally regarded as the other side of the same coin High God symbolises. Something greater (and alien) than Paladine, Takhisis and the other gods. This is true everywhere except in the Appendix since it goes such great lengths to make Chaos more like Paladine & co. and much less like the High God.
I've heard mention of this Appendix before.....but neither my copy of Dragons of Summer Flame, or any of the 3 War of Souls novels has an Appendix....am I missing something?
Banshee
I've heard mention of this Appendix before.....but neither my copy of Dragons of Summer Flame, or any of the 3 War of Souls novels has an Appendix....am I missing something?
As of right now, the appendix is found in the hardcover version of Dragons of the Vanished Moon only
Originally posted by lost_boy_84
It'd b stupid if Chaos got free again. It'd b like a crappy cartoon where the evil guy appears 25 times and a half only to b defeated by the heroes again and again and again.
What...you mean like Krynn and Takhisis?
Well...at least this time we're rid of her for good. :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
What...you mean like Krynn and Takhisis?
That's why I think DoSF inovates the setting. Takhisis isn't the main villain for once (in the main storyline books).
Well...at least this time we're rid of her for good. :D
Nah... I'm sure one of the evil gods will allow one of their clerics to resurrect Takhisis at some point in the future (and that's assuming you don't even take D&D rules at face value and allow a cleric to resurrect her and only suffer the divine consequences afterwards).
Any evil god (but mostly chaotic ones) would see benefits in this. Takhisis would be eternally grateful (or at least that's what thinks) and would probably make second in command replacing Sargas. Hiddukel would be a prime candidate in my view. Or perhaps Chemosh strikes a deal with Takhisis' soul (if she has one) and makes her immortal (and undead).
Cheesy, contrived way of bringing back the Queen of Darkness? Perhaps, but completely plausible which is more than can be said of some stories IMHO.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Any evil god (but mostly chaotic ones) would see benefits in this. Takhisis would be eternally grateful (or at least that's what thinks) and would probably make second in command replacing Sargas. Hiddukel would be a prime candidate in my view. Or perhaps Chemosh strikes a deal with Takhisis' soul (if she has one) and makes her immortal (and undead).
Ah, but think of the flipside to this.
For millenia now, all the evil gods have been working under the thumb of the Queen of Darkness. With her out of the picture, they can finally act on their own.
Plus, why would anyone bring back a potential rival?
I really don't think it is likely, although you never know.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
For millenia now, all the evil gods have been working under the thumb of the Queen of Darkness. With her out of the picture, they can finally act on their own.
Plus, why would anyone bring back a potential rival?
I really don't think it is likely, although you never know.
Like I mentioned, what thinks Takhisis will do does not necessarily mean it will happen. Greed for power clouds the minds and sound reason goes out the window.
And let's say, for argument's sake, that the gods are now balanced. Bringing a companion to the evil side will upset the balance and give power to the Evil gods. This is especially true if they can also capture/kill Valthy. The good gods would have to step in and would probably restore the balance by resurrecting/rescueing Valthy but how different is this from Takhisis' schemes in the 4th Age et al?
No one told Taki that her brainless plans had no chance in hell (or Abyss) of succeeding before so no one will tell that Takhisis will NOT honour her part of the bargain and make her lieutenant and that in fact, she will probably backstab as soon as she has the chance. Evil turns upon itself and all that... :D
On the other hand, I have some interesting campaign ideas involving Artha and Takhisis...
Originally posted by Eidolon
The way I see it, not even the Sinister Six :D would be willing to help Takhisis...
Doctor Octopus, Electro, Vulture, Mysterio, Hobgoblin (or Kraven the Hunter), and Sandman?
Wow! Takhisis has invaded Marvel Comics! ;)
The High God isn't representative of Law at all. If one were to put an alignment on him, he'd be True Neutral. I've always pictured him as a preserver of balance not order. He did invite chaotic deities to his domain after all.
I've always had trouble with this "Chaos" figure. According to DoSF, the ultimate state of chaos is oblivion, right? All his little minions were always talking about that. Why would utter nothingness be chaotic? Seems to me that it's the perfect embodiment of Law. Everything's the same, nothing is out of order. To me, "Chaos" is just a poor choice of name for a god of destruction. Maybe he should be called "Super-Duper Destructionface" or "Unhappy Destroyer McWhiney-Pants" or even "He Who Cannot Abide By Others' Enjoyment And So Is Forced To Ruin Their Fun By Stomping On The Sand Castle Of Creation"
Anyway, that's my take on it
=============
If you've seen the Japanese anime of dragon ball (not z, but the original series), then you are familiar with a character called Kami-sama. This green being was chosen to be the guardian spirit (aka God) of earth, and provide it with the dragonballs and such. But to assume the position, Kami had to excise all the evil and chaos in his body. This matter became the demon Piccolo, who was then killed by the hero Goku. As he died, he spit out an egg to create the current piccolo character, one not quite as evil or chaotic.
What does this have to do with Dragonlance? Well, first you have to be willing to go beyond whats written in DLA. use your imagination, if you will. Consider the proposition that Krynn is in a pocket dimension. A universe created solely for it. The high god of krynn was granted this commision from beyond, to create and nurture this world. To do so, he had to become the essence of law and creation. The excised portion became the essense of Chaos, and the material from which the DL universe was forged.
Like the Mystical Hero slaying the demon, High God tamed the wild chaos and created order out of it, but as the last blows were struck, chaos spit out an egg. A grey egg. A grey gemstone egg. And need i tell you what hatched from this egg? A new chaos. A chaos which could easily call itself the father of all and nothing, since the high god had created everything from its essence.
So where did the rest of the pantheon come from? The high god as Observer called forth to the beyond. Given the above explanation, the Beyond is all that isnt part of the High God/Chaos. Now if the High God is everything, and Chaos is the opposite of that, what is beyond even that? We must then believe that the gods came from the id of the High God. the subconsiousness of creation is beyond everything and nothing.
So then we can reconcile both the fact that the gods came from Beyond, and the claim that chaos is the All Father. First came Paladine and Takhisis, intrinsicly linked, opposites yet equals, in essence lesser analogs of the High God and Chaos, but along the good evil spectrum.
But while the High God and Chaos could draw upon the universal subconsiousness for their neutral ground, the mortal pantheon needs a solid anchor for the balance. Through time Gilean is found and granted with the knowledge of creation, or the High God's framework for Chaos.
Now the rest of the gods came as explained in DLA. The Beyond is in this case the mind of the High God. The stars were sparks cast off from the forging of the planet, or in essence chunks of chaos entrapped by the essence of the high god. These spirits were harnessed by the three factions and filtered to the prime material, bound to an alignment along the good-evil axis.
Now, let us return to our egg. This egg had a consiousness, and a will to defy the highgod, in revenge for the eternal entrapment in the guise of creation. So with the help of chaos, we had corruptions of the original spirits.
From there, DL progresses as normal, and Lo! DoSF makes sense now!
The fifth age and the Grey are discussions best left for another post.
But before i end, let's discuss the home of the gods, since thats what this was originally about.
Good- Dome of Creation. Evil- Abyss. Neutral- Prime material/hidden vale. Now the Good and Evil domains are pretty standard heaven and hell analogs. Where each individual diety lives isnt really important in the greater scheme of things. Now Neutrality is a different matter. Gilean lives in his constellation, holding the framework of creation together. Zivlyn is everywhere, the extension of the High God's id never fully separated. Sirrion is present in every flame, both physical and creative. Shinare lives in the essence of trade and economy. Chizlev is the nature of Krynn, alive and omnipresent. Reorx wanders the world, having completed his task as the forger. And lunitari is kinda there, ya know? floating in space, doing her thing =).
edit- i've written so much on the relationship of chaos and the high god, and posted it all over, so its hard to keep this kinda summarized and coherent. I dont even remember where i posted it last =)
Originally posted by carteeg
Ionthas: (n.) An Atomthas which has lost its Electronthas.
Lol!
I believe that Matthew Martin derived that name from Io, the nine-fold dragon, as a tribute of sorts. Glad Chaos was given a name.
Originally posted by carteeg
Ionthas: (n.) An Atomthas which has lost its Electronthas.
*thwaps Carteeg.*
The Book goes to great lengths to say that Gilgeam is an idiot as are all the other gods of Neutrality. The High God is portrayed as Lawful Good all the way through and more or less throws the idea of balance out the window.
Its all for the purposes of good and love that everything exists with the other gods direly mislead or flawed.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
...that Gilgeam is an idiot...
Someone seems to have the worlds mixed up. ;)
Anyway, Gilean is far from an idiot seeing how he managed to stay the most powerful god on Krynn despite all the ranting about maintaining balance.
Originally posted by Old French Admiral
Some idiot (the guy that wrote it, I can't remember his name) decided that Dragonlance was too morally relativistic (or something) for his tastes and, since he was given the power of writing the appendix, decided to rewrite the whole mythology according to his beliefs.
:OMG!
This will be interesting to watch... That wasn't very nice, OFA.
Wizards of the Coast, not Tracy, made the decision to drop the appendix in paperback format so that they could publish a preview of Night of Blood.
Matthew Martin is an established and respected board member who has quite a knowledge of Dragonlance. It is not fair to him to insult him in such a manner simply because you do not agree with his point of view.
I know the appendix has caused some controversy, but what is done is done. While you may dislike it, there are other board members here (self included) who do like it.
Anyway, back to topic.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I know the appendix has caused some controversy, but what is done is done. While you may dislike it, there are other board members here (self included) who do like it.
Not to mention, the whole second half of his post is nothing more than a blatant personal attack on Matt...which just ain't cool.
(okay, shutting up now)
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
And realize this is spoken with Paladines CONSIDERABLE bias...
The Book goes to great lengths to say that Gilgeam is an idiot as are all the other gods of Neutrality. The High God is portrayed as Lawful Good all the way through and more or less throws the idea of balance out the window.
Its all for the purposes of good and love that everything exists with the other gods direly mislead or flawed.
Gilean's response to the Appendix (along with Mina's, and Valthonis' counter-responses) is in the drafting stages, although it won't be 'official'. :-)
As for the Balance, it depends very much on your perspective. Paladine sees the Balance as a means to produce true Goodness in the world, and something that will pass away when Time ends, the story of the world is complete, and all souls have forged their destinies. Gilean sees the Balance as an end to itself, and thinks that if the world had any purpose, Chaos' influence has swerved it away from that, and Krynn exists now for its own sake.
Matthew L. Martin