Playtesting: Half-giant - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Playtesting: Half-giant

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
flip
Jul 16, 2003 23:14:37 (This is something of an example, and something of getting the ball rolling)

The Problem
I've found that half-giants can be deceptivly hard to handle. As melee powerhouses, they're one of the better in existance. We all knew that, and that's not that big of a deal. I've dropped a ... 3rd level (?) HG fighter with a well placed hit from a distant bowman.

My actual issue is that thier biggest apparent weakness isn't as big as it might seem. That is, Half-Giants are among the most likely characters to have a horrendus Will save. But that's less of a disadvantage for a half giant than it is for others, because they're immune to a lot of (especially low-level) mind affecting powers, for two reasons:
They're Giant type, not Humanoid type
Even if they wern't giant type (and they wern't always), they're still immune to a lot of powers/spells, because of their size.

This basically means that the supposedly most easily influenced of the races is immune to things such as Charm Person.

Possible solution:
Smallminded: Half-giants are treated as medium-sized humanoids for all Mind-Affecting powers and spells.

questions
Any rebuttals? Am I just overreacting to things here, and people think that their Level Adjustment (+1) effectivly compensates for that advantage?
#2
nytcrawlr
Jul 16, 2003 23:29:27 Might not be a bad idea, though there are official versions of monsters that are equivalent to the HG and don't have that.

So I think we both may be overreacting.
#3
star_gazer_02
Jul 17, 2003 4:02:40 The fact that I Loooooove playing Drik aside, I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit too and here's my take on the subject:

CHARM
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:Wiz 2, Clr 2, Tmp 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft / 2 levels
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Trhow: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell replaces Charm Person as that spell is a subset of this one. When preparing this spell, choose a creature type, including sub-type, if humanoid. Charm operates exactly as the spell Charm Person except that it may be targeted at types like Giant or Abberation. To Charm a creature, it must have an intelligence of at least 3 and be able to understand a language that you speak.

Long live Drik!

Unlike Charm Monster, which lets you make friends with just about anything, this spell is the equvalent of Charm Giant, Charm Dragon, Charm Orc, Charm Mul... it loses some of the flexibility of Charm Person (any humanoid sub-type) for flexibility in a different area (the ability to charm just about anything, as long as you're prepared for it).
#4
zombiegleemax
Jul 17, 2003 4:57:29 The other option would be simply for modified versions of spells to exist on Athas tailored to exploiting the half-giant's weakness. It makes sense, they are a powerful and valuable slave-race - people are going to want to ensure their loyalty.
#5
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jul 17, 2003 5:01:23 It is a lot easier to add Smallmindedness to the Half-giant, than changing every charm and dominate spell/power.
#6
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jul 17, 2003 5:02:45 The horror of a half-giant is not unveiled until you see one with the Improved Grapple feat. +4 grapple bonus, +4 size bonus, + huge str mod.
#7
star_gazer_02
Jul 17, 2003 8:04:18 I'm against giving them 'small mindedness' their size and type benefits are built into the system. If you really must 'control' them, add a spell tailored to them to the list. Seriously, do the least amount of changing the rules to make an effective change. Making an exception to just one popular Large creature is 'not' an effective use of resources.

Jon, just wait till you see a .5Giant doing 3d6+15/15-20x2 on just one attack action.

Drik (my 5th level .5Giant) character) takes about 45 points of damage from just one encounter, because flip always targets him first, only reasonable, Drik is just under 12' tall... he kinda stands out. The party cleric can't keep up w/ the damage dealt to him, it's disgusting, really.

Oh, I edited Charm, it's now a 2nd level spell. Coupled w/ crappy will saves, any good slaver Templar is going to have this one memorized.
#8
flip
Jul 17, 2003 9:32:05
Originally posted by Star Gazer
I'm against giving them 'small mindedness' their size and type benefits are built into the system. If you really must 'control' them, add a spell tailored to them to the list. Seriously, do the least amount of changing the rules to make an effective change. Making an exception to just one popular Large creature is 'not' an effective use of resources.

Ordinarily, I'd agree with yout.

However, it is a major point of the half-giant racial character that they are weak-willed followers. Most other large creatures aren't represented as the followers that half-giants are. Dumber than a box of rocks, yes, but not inclined to tag along after someone half their size, simply because he's there.

As such, it's actually jarringly odd that half-giants are immune to most mind-affecting spells, just because they're large. Doesn't mesh with the established character of the race.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jul 17, 2003 11:48:09 They are a little slow, but that doesn't mean they're entirely stupid. Having them immune to most charm spells seems actually ironically appropriate. Yes they are followers and tag along with others, but on a sheer whim of will they leave as if that person or place never existed. Seems to me like they would be easily charmed by a spell or power (as in smallminded or somesuch) but they also easily shrug off the effects of a charm (twice the number of saves allowed or save twice as often).
#10
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jul 17, 2003 12:07:21 As is, you'd be better off maximizing your Bluff or Diplomacy skill to persuade the half-giant not to beat you senseless.
#11
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jul 17, 2003 12:22:22 The small-mindedness could be something due to the magical mixing of a medium-sized humanoid (human) with a large (or huge) giant (athasian giants) - compared to other giants, they are small, and they have been conditioned mentally (as a race) to be subservient (in one form or another) to their smaller masters. Plus, Half Giants frequently copy other races, especially people who they admire - possibly something inside them makes them actually believe they are part of the same race as the person they copy?

Not trying to fan the flames, just giving possible rationalizations as to why "Small-mindedness" makes very good sense when applied to a Half-giant.
#12
Shei-Nad
Jul 17, 2003 12:27:37 The first good thing, and almost necessary thing, would be to have HGs be humanoids again.

Note that the name Half-Giant is more decieving than anything, anyways, since they are not actual crossbreeds from giants and humans (not in any natural sense anyways). As such, I think HGs are closer to being large humanoids than creatures of giant qualities.

On a personal note, I added a "Weak-willed" racial trait to my Half-Giants, which confers a -2 racial penality to Will saves against [mind-affecting] effects. Flavorable and balancing.

For the rest, note that the battle abilities of the Half-Giant aren't that different from those of the Half-Ogre of savage species (same size, reach, 2 points of Str and Con difference, but more natural armor) and Half-Ogres only have LA +1. With 2 HDs (which softens the LA), the ECL 3 HG is surely balanced, at least, according to D&D.
#13
Otakkun
Jul 17, 2003 12:30:06 You should remember why do low level spells/powers have a size limit in the first place. Balance. You don't need to come with explanations for the "small-minded" thing, since size has never been a "mind" issue, it is just to prevent a 1st level wizard/psion/whatever from having a huge tank protecting him.

You should always look things from the other side. If you take away the "size" from the HG, then they are going to be THE target of low level charms, making that spell/power a "cant-play-without-it" one.

On the other side, if you're going to make the HG vulnerable to charms, just because it is a player race instead of a monster, what about the Thri-kreen?

Edo.
#14
nytcrawlr
Jul 17, 2003 12:34:14 We ended up errating the Half Ogre to 2 HD with a LA of +1 making it a ECL 3 like HG in my games.

I still don't think HG's need to have anything added or subtracted to them, other than upping their Str and Con to +10 and +6 respectively.

Maybe that's something to consider if we add the smallminded thing. Otherwise they won't be worth the ECL 3 they are currently.
#15
player1
Jul 17, 2003 17:23:26 I like 1/2gainst the way they are.
They are so small-minded that basic charms don't even work on them.

If you want to Charm them, just use proper higher level spell.
Or several ranks in Bluff/Diplomacy.

P.S.
If normal non-athasian orgre is immune to low level spells, then 1/2ginat should be too.
#16
star_gazer_02
Jul 17, 2003 20:46:55
Originally posted by player1

If normal non-athasian orgre is immune to low level spells, then 1/2ginat should be too.

I agree, you are already paying for the privelige of playing a .5giant with ECLs, meaning that NPCs w/ access to 4th level spells (for Charm Monster) is already a possibility for the party to meet as enemies and that opportunity merely goes up and up as level increases, while the .5giant's Will save does no such thing.

IOW, the issue you're talking about here only seems to be an issue, it really isn't because after enemies have grown to the point of having access to higher level spells, every single one that demands a will save ends up being a "cast-it-at-the-.5giant-first" spell (can you say Thrall? I knew you could!), just because they generally have Wisdom mods of -1 and their preffered classes have poor will saves. Let them be immune to charm person, they are powerful creatures in their own right and it should take powerful magic to control them. You don't want a farmslave fresh off of the fields handling mekkilots, right? Neither do you want some low level punk (mis-)handling your valuable .5Giant assets.

Another thing: .5Giants are docile and kind. It is easy to get them to do what you want. Esp. since they don't tend to think ahead very far. Most .5Giants will willingly work long hard hours, just for the 'benefits' that they see some slaves getting: food, water, a place to sleep. Who needs Charm Person when all you really have to do is ask? They don't even have to be 'slaves' in the technical sense of the word, just go up to one, say "Hi," and introduce him to his new friends, in your slave pit.

My 0.2cp

Roger
#17
zombiegleemax
Jul 17, 2003 22:18:21 Hmmm . . . interesting take on .5giants. I never really seen them as docile, only if the community or individuals were docile themselves. However, if that docile little group of farmers that the .5giant was emulating were to be suddenly attacked by raiders that sparked an interest in the .5giant's little mind, you would easily see the brute turn on his former workhands as if he never knew them. That's living in the moment for you. Also, though .5giants are generally considered slow and stupid, they can easily have intelligent members among them. Imagine a half-giant that actually remembers and keeps track of all the things he learns from the cultures he interacts with. If he can overcome the stereotype's that the race suffers from, you'd end up with quite the skilled diplomat who needs no bodyguards ;). But that's straying off topic. My bad.

I like em as they are otherwise and don't think they really need to change (but then again, I'm not much for NPCs using charm and such so I guess in my games its less of an advantage to the .5giant anyhow).
#18
flip
Jul 17, 2003 23:14:47 Thrall: 9th level psionic power, mind-affecting. As True Domination

True Domination: 8th level psionic power, mind-affecting. As Domination

Domination: 4th level psionic power, mind-affecting.
You can control the actions of any humanoid of Medium-sise or smaller

(emphasis added)

Synopsis? Half-giants are immune to Thrall. Would be, even if they were humanoid.

In fact, the only way a telepath can control a Half-giant is through Monster Domination. a ninth level power. They can convince the HG not to squash them, via the Charm Monster 3rd level power, but that doesn't do much for their friends.

about a third of all telepathic combat powers in the psihb are ineffective against half-giants. The gap shows up mostly in mid-level power ranges ... which would be more of a problem without scaling rules. However, the domination chain is dead until 9th level powers. A few others, like brain-lock are likewise ineffective.

Having just looked through the psionics handbook at all the telepathic combat powers, there are, admittedly, fewer that Half-giants are immune too than I had initially thought. The few direct powers, like the nearly-requisite Dominiation power, are a toss-up, however.
#19
Otakkun
Jul 17, 2003 23:43:29 Well, that means that the telepath needs new powers, not that the .5giant needs to be smaller.

What about a psionic feat that reduces the duration (or lowers the DC) of domination-like powers but lets you affect any size of creature?

Edo.
#20
Kamelion
Jul 18, 2003 3:50:46 I am reminded of the old "White Dwarf" comic strip Thrud The Barbarian. Thrud (somewhere between Conan and a half-giant) was as dumb as they come but was considered immune to mind-affecting spells on account of targeting difficulties...

(OK - not a serious suggestion, but there you go....)

I think that the half giant should be left as it is. As has already been said, they are ECL +3 and I would say that being a large giant-type is part and parcel of (and paid for by) the high ECL adjustment. It's not just about the Str and Con mods, after all...
#21
Shei-Nad
Jul 18, 2003 12:21:46 You know, that stipulation in the PsiHB about the size of humanoids is overkill... There are NO large sized humanoids that I know of. Those who'd fit are all of the giant type. If someone finds a large humanoid please say so.

So it might be easier to drop the size clause for that spell/power and treat HGs as large humanoids.
#22
zombiegleemax
Jul 18, 2003 12:53:20 I don't like HGs. I forbid them as playable race in my 2e DS campaigns, and will do the same in 3e. Causes waaaaay too much headache to handle them, and integrate in the party. Good for NPCs, tough.

To have a size limitation on telepathic powers is stupid, I would not use them. Well, okay, a first level psion can befirend a HG than. See the chances: first level telepath, the save DC is d20+4 on average (1st level power, +3 CHA mod.) HG has d20-1 in average. Approx. 70% chance of success. But if the HG rolls his save than the psion can be really flat under the HGs hand... Not to mention than Charm Person is not a long duration power at low levels, so the HG can reroll the save in every 2-3 days. Would a psion take that risk?
#23
zombiegleemax
Jul 18, 2003 13:18:13 A first level psion shouldn't be taking that chance with a half-giant since the .5 giant isn't a first level character. A psion of equal level as the .5 giant does have a chance if he relies on more than just charming. Daze works to keep the beast at bay as does control object by creating obsticles, displacement if the .5gint gets too close (and with reach, your not going to be closing in on him for a touch attack without it). If you have a poor con modifier and hence low hit points, toss a few astral constructs at the .5giant. Tossing fate link on a the half-giant and one of the constructs that is almost dead, and then killing the construct yourself is also a good one. No psion worth his weight in sand would rely entirely on a single power (charm or dominate) to overcome an enemey. These are also all 3rd level and lower powers that any 5th lvl psion has access to (5th lvl psion being equal to a 1st lvl .5giant). And no self respecting 1st level character takes on a 5th level character and expects to live.
#24
zombiegleemax
Jul 18, 2003 13:46:08 The PsiHB clause does seem to be a little bit on the overkill side but there are balance issues with allowing 1st-level enchanters to go around with half-giant lackeys.

There might be a case for a metapsionic feat, say Half-Giant Handler, which allows a psion to use his powers against half-giants as though they were medium-size humanoids. That way, at least, they're not getting something for nothing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 flip Jul 16, 2003 23:14:37	(This is something of an example, and something of getting the ball rolling) The Problem I've found that half-giants can be deceptivly hard to handle. As melee powerhouses, they're one of the better in existance. We all knew that, and that's not that big of a deal. I've dropped a ... 3rd level (?) HG fighter with a well placed hit from a distant bowman. My actual issue is that thier biggest apparent weakness isn't as big as it might seem. That is, Half-Giants are among the most likely characters to have a horrendus Will save. But that's less of a disadvantage for a half giant than it is for others, because they're immune to a lot of (especially low-level) mind affecting powers, for two reasons: They're Giant type, not Humanoid type Even if they wern't giant type (and they wern't always), they're still immune to a lot of powers/spells, because of their size. This basically means that the supposedly most easily influenced of the races is immune to things such as Charm Person. Possible solution: Smallminded: Half-giants are treated as medium-sized humanoids for all Mind-Affecting powers and spells. questions Any rebuttals? Am I just overreacting to things here, and people think that their Level Adjustment (+1) effectivly compensates for that advantage?
#2 nytcrawlr Jul 16, 2003 23:29:27	Might not be a bad idea, though there are official versions of monsters that are equivalent to the HG and don't have that. So I think we both may be overreacting.
#3 star_gazer_02 Jul 17, 2003 4:02:40	The fact that I Loooooove playing Drik aside, I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit too and here's my take on the subject: CHARM Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting] Level:Wiz 2, Clr 2, Tmp 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25ft + 5ft / 2 levels Target: One creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Trhow: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell replaces Charm Person as that spell is a subset of this one. When preparing this spell, choose a creature type, including sub-type, if humanoid. Charm operates exactly as the spell Charm Person except that it may be targeted at types like Giant or Abberation. To Charm a creature, it must have an intelligence of at least 3 and be able to understand a language that you speak. Long live Drik! Unlike Charm Monster, which lets you make friends with just about anything, this spell is the equvalent of Charm Giant, Charm Dragon, Charm Orc, Charm Mul... it loses some of the flexibility of Charm Person (any humanoid sub-type) for flexibility in a different area (the ability to charm just about anything, as long as you're prepared for it).
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 17, 2003 4:57:29	The other option would be simply for modified versions of spells to exist on Athas tailored to exploiting the half-giant's weakness. It makes sense, they are a powerful and valuable slave-race - people are going to want to ensure their loyalty.
#5 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 17, 2003 5:01:23	It is a lot easier to add Smallmindedness to the Half-giant, than changing every charm and dominate spell/power.
#6 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 17, 2003 5:02:45	The horror of a half-giant is not unveiled until you see one with the Improved Grapple feat. +4 grapple bonus, +4 size bonus, + huge str mod.
#7 star_gazer_02 Jul 17, 2003 8:04:18	I'm against giving them 'small mindedness' their size and type benefits are built into the system. If you really must 'control' them, add a spell tailored to them to the list. Seriously, do the least amount of changing the rules to make an effective change. Making an exception to just one popular Large creature is 'not' an effective use of resources. Jon, just wait till you see a .5Giant doing 3d6+15/15-20x2 on just one attack action. Drik (my 5th level .5Giant) character) takes about 45 points of damage from just one encounter, because flip always targets him first, only reasonable, Drik is just under 12' tall... he kinda stands out. The party cleric can't keep up w/ the damage dealt to him, it's disgusting, really. Oh, I edited Charm, it's now a 2nd level spell. Coupled w/ crappy will saves, any good slaver Templar is going to have this one memorized.
#8 flip Jul 17, 2003 9:32:05	Originally posted by Star Gazer I'm against giving them 'small mindedness' their size and type benefits are built into the system. If you really must 'control' them, add a spell tailored to them to the list. Seriously, do the least amount of changing the rules to make an effective change. Making an exception to just one popular Large creature is 'not' an effective use of resources. Ordinarily, I'd agree with yout. However, it is a major point of the half-giant racial character that they are weak-willed followers. Most other large creatures aren't represented as the followers that half-giants are. Dumber than a box of rocks, yes, but not inclined to tag along after someone half their size, simply because he's there. As such, it's actually jarringly odd that half-giants are immune to most mind-affecting spells, just because they're large. Doesn't mesh with the established character of the race.
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 17, 2003 11:48:09	They are a little slow, but that doesn't mean they're entirely stupid. Having them immune to most charm spells seems actually ironically appropriate. Yes they are followers and tag along with others, but on a sheer whim of will they leave as if that person or place never existed. Seems to me like they would be easily charmed by a spell or power (as in smallminded or somesuch) but they also easily shrug off the effects of a charm (twice the number of saves allowed or save twice as often).
#10 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 17, 2003 12:07:21	As is, you'd be better off maximizing your Bluff or Diplomacy skill to persuade the half-giant not to beat you senseless.
#11 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 17, 2003 12:22:22	The small-mindedness could be something due to the magical mixing of a medium-sized humanoid (human) with a large (or huge) giant (athasian giants) - compared to other giants, they are small, and they have been conditioned mentally (as a race) to be subservient (in one form or another) to their smaller masters. Plus, Half Giants frequently copy other races, especially people who they admire - possibly something inside them makes them actually believe they are part of the same race as the person they copy? Not trying to fan the flames, just giving possible rationalizations as to why "Small-mindedness" makes very good sense when applied to a Half-giant.
#12 Shei-Nad Jul 17, 2003 12:27:37	The first good thing, and almost necessary thing, would be to have HGs be humanoids again. Note that the name Half-Giant is more decieving than anything, anyways, since they are not actual crossbreeds from giants and humans (not in any natural sense anyways). As such, I think HGs are closer to being large humanoids than creatures of giant qualities. On a personal note, I added a "Weak-willed" racial trait to my Half-Giants, which confers a -2 racial penality to Will saves against [mind-affecting] effects. Flavorable and balancing. For the rest, note that the battle abilities of the Half-Giant aren't that different from those of the Half-Ogre of savage species (same size, reach, 2 points of Str and Con difference, but more natural armor) and Half-Ogres only have LA +1. With 2 HDs (which softens the LA), the ECL 3 HG is surely balanced, at least, according to D&D.
#13 Otakkun Jul 17, 2003 12:30:06	You should remember why do low level spells/powers have a size limit in the first place. Balance. You don't need to come with explanations for the "small-minded" thing, since size has never been a "mind" issue, it is just to prevent a 1st level wizard/psion/whatever from having a huge tank protecting him. You should always look things from the other side. If you take away the "size" from the HG, then they are going to be THE target of low level charms, making that spell/power a "cant-play-without-it" one. On the other side, if you're going to make the HG vulnerable to charms, just because it is a player race instead of a monster, what about the Thri-kreen? Edo.
#14 nytcrawlr Jul 17, 2003 12:34:14	We ended up errating the Half Ogre to 2 HD with a LA of +1 making it a ECL 3 like HG in my games. I still don't think HG's need to have anything added or subtracted to them, other than upping their Str and Con to +10 and +6 respectively. Maybe that's something to consider if we add the smallminded thing. Otherwise they won't be worth the ECL 3 they are currently.
#15 player1 Jul 17, 2003 17:23:26	I like 1/2gainst the way they are. They are so small-minded that basic charms don't even work on them. If you want to Charm them, just use proper higher level spell. Or several ranks in Bluff/Diplomacy. P.S. If normal non-athasian orgre is immune to low level spells, then 1/2ginat should be too.
#16 star_gazer_02 Jul 17, 2003 20:46:55	Originally posted by player1 If normal non-athasian orgre is immune to low level spells, then 1/2ginat should be too. I agree, you are already paying for the privelige of playing a .5giant with ECLs, meaning that NPCs w/ access to 4th level spells (for Charm Monster) is already a possibility for the party to meet as enemies and that opportunity merely goes up and up as level increases, while the .5giant's Will save does no such thing. IOW, the issue you're talking about here only seems to be an issue, it really isn't because after enemies have grown to the point of having access to higher level spells, every single one that demands a will save ends up being a "cast-it-at-the-.5giant-first" spell (can you say Thrall? I knew you could!), just because they generally have Wisdom mods of -1 and their preffered classes have poor will saves. Let them be immune to charm person, they are powerful creatures in their own right and it should take powerful magic to control them. You don't want a farmslave fresh off of the fields handling mekkilots, right? Neither do you want some low level punk (mis-)handling your valuable .5Giant assets. Another thing: .5Giants are docile and kind. It is easy to get them to do what you want. Esp. since they don't tend to think ahead very far. Most .5Giants will willingly work long hard hours, just for the 'benefits' that they see some slaves getting: food, water, a place to sleep. Who needs Charm Person when all you really have to do is ask? They don't even have to be 'slaves' in the technical sense of the word, just go up to one, say "Hi," and introduce him to his new friends, in your slave pit. My 0.2cp Roger
#17 zombiegleemax Jul 17, 2003 22:18:21	Hmmm . . . interesting take on .5giants. I never really seen them as docile, only if the community or individuals were docile themselves. However, if that docile little group of farmers that the .5giant was emulating were to be suddenly attacked by raiders that sparked an interest in the .5giant's little mind, you would easily see the brute turn on his former workhands as if he never knew them. That's living in the moment for you. Also, though .5giants are generally considered slow and stupid, they can easily have intelligent members among them. Imagine a half-giant that actually remembers and keeps track of all the things he learns from the cultures he interacts with. If he can overcome the stereotype's that the race suffers from, you'd end up with quite the skilled diplomat who needs no bodyguards ;). But that's straying off topic. My bad. I like em as they are otherwise and don't think they really need to change (but then again, I'm not much for NPCs using charm and such so I guess in my games its less of an advantage to the .5giant anyhow).
#18 flip Jul 17, 2003 23:14:47	Thrall: 9th level psionic power, mind-affecting. As True Domination True Domination: 8th level psionic power, mind-affecting. As Domination Domination: 4th level psionic power, mind-affecting. You can control the actions of any humanoid of Medium-sise or smaller (emphasis added) Synopsis? Half-giants are immune to Thrall. Would be, even if they were humanoid. In fact, the only way a telepath can control a Half-giant is through Monster Domination. a ninth level power. They can convince the HG not to squash them, via the Charm Monster 3rd level power, but that doesn't do much for their friends. about a third of all telepathic combat powers in the psihb are ineffective against half-giants. The gap shows up mostly in mid-level power ranges ... which would be more of a problem without scaling rules. However, the domination chain is dead until 9th level powers. A few others, like brain-lock are likewise ineffective. Having just looked through the psionics handbook at all the telepathic combat powers, there are, admittedly, fewer that Half-giants are immune too than I had initially thought. The few direct powers, like the nearly-requisite Dominiation power, are a toss-up, however.
#19 Otakkun Jul 17, 2003 23:43:29	Well, that means that the telepath needs new powers, not that the .5giant needs to be smaller. What about a psionic feat that reduces the duration (or lowers the DC) of domination-like powers but lets you affect any size of creature? Edo.
#20 Kamelion Jul 18, 2003 3:50:46	I am reminded of the old "White Dwarf" comic strip Thrud The Barbarian. Thrud (somewhere between Conan and a half-giant) was as dumb as they come but was considered immune to mind-affecting spells on account of targeting difficulties... (OK - not a serious suggestion, but there you go....) I think that the half giant should be left as it is. As has already been said, they are ECL +3 and I would say that being a large giant-type is part and parcel of (and paid for by) the high ECL adjustment. It's not just about the Str and Con mods, after all...
#21 Shei-Nad Jul 18, 2003 12:21:46	You know, that stipulation in the PsiHB about the size of humanoids is overkill... There are NO large sized humanoids that I know of. Those who'd fit are all of the giant type. If someone finds a large humanoid please say so. So it might be easier to drop the size clause for that spell/power and treat HGs as large humanoids.
#22 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2003 12:53:20	I don't like HGs. I forbid them as playable race in my 2e DS campaigns, and will do the same in 3e. Causes waaaaay too much headache to handle them, and integrate in the party. Good for NPCs, tough. To have a size limitation on telepathic powers is stupid, I would not use them. Well, okay, a first level psion can befirend a HG than. See the chances: first level telepath, the save DC is d20+4 on average (1st level power, +3 CHA mod.) HG has d20-1 in average. Approx. 70% chance of success. But if the HG rolls his save than the psion can be really flat under the HGs hand... Not to mention than Charm Person is not a long duration power at low levels, so the HG can reroll the save in every 2-3 days. Would a psion take that risk?
#23 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2003 13:18:13	A first level psion shouldn't be taking that chance with a half-giant since the .5 giant isn't a first level character. A psion of equal level as the .5 giant does have a chance if he relies on more than just charming. Daze works to keep the beast at bay as does control object by creating obsticles, displacement if the .5gint gets too close (and with reach, your not going to be closing in on him for a touch attack without it). If you have a poor con modifier and hence low hit points, toss a few astral constructs at the .5giant. Tossing fate link on a the half-giant and one of the constructs that is almost dead, and then killing the construct yourself is also a good one. No psion worth his weight in sand would rely entirely on a single power (charm or dominate) to overcome an enemey. These are also all 3rd level and lower powers that any 5th lvl psion has access to (5th lvl psion being equal to a 1st lvl .5giant). And no self respecting 1st level character takes on a 5th level character and expects to live.
#24 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2003 13:46:08	The PsiHB clause does seem to be a little bit on the overkill side but there are balance issues with allowing 1st-level enchanters to go around with half-giant lackeys. There might be a case for a metapsionic feat, say Half-Giant Handler, which allows a psion to use his powers against half-giants as though they were medium-size humanoids. That way, at least, they're not getting something for nothing.