And are you disappointed that they have no clerics?
they tried to give the moon gods a clergy, but its a bad idea.
on the wizards of the coast dragonlance page there are description for the robes of the clerics who serve all the gods, including nuitari, lunitari and solinari.
in my campaign i'll probably just make a house rule that includes clerics who serve those deities in the setting.
Dragonlance Adventures was a bit unclear on whether the moon gods had clerics or not, IMO. Tales of the Lance said that moon gods had clerics, although they had to be 5th level wizards first.
The compromise, IMO, would be a prestige class, like one of the two moon disciple PrCs on the Nexus. The moon disciple idea is that of a wizard who functions like a cleric, but still casts arcane spells.
I think this is one of those topics where people will have differing views no matter what, and many people will come up with their homebrewed rules.
I have never subscribed to the fact that gods HAD to have worshippers to survive, or even wanted them. The high god has no worshippers. The moon gods are divine entities that are focused on the the flowof magic in the world, they exist, thus magic exists. No churces, no clergy, no worship needed.
So I would like clerics of the moon gods to emphasize that WoHS don't need to act like clerics. I would be equally satisfied if it was made clear in some other manner.
Originally posted by Xeros
No clergy for moon gods!
What are the Wizards of High Sorcery if they aren't clerics of the moon gods! :fight!:
Originally posted by ferratus
Heck, Raistlin Majere doesn't make sense. He didn't act like a cleric, now did he?
So I would like clerics of the moon gods to emphasize that WoHS don't need to act like clerics. I would be equally satisfied if it was made clear in some other manner.
How is a cleric supposed to act? A cleric of Sargonnas is likely a blood-thirsty killer... does that make him any less of a cleric. Raistlin loved magic with his whole being and was a true disciple of the moon gods until he decided he could ursurp them all.
-Gilles
#1) Their portfolio is Arcane Magic and aspects of arcane magic.
#2) The three gods purposefully set themselves apart from the other gods, removing themselves from the "heavens" for a closer connection to the world through the moons.
#3) The Orders require that Arcane Magic comes first, above all other things. How could the gods that represent the "ideals" of Arcane Magic also deal with Divine Magic, without seeming to betray one of the basic precepts of the laws they established?
#4) In a way, the Orders of High Sorcery are the only clergy that the gods of magic need. When other gods "left" after the Cataclysm, the Orders of High Sorcery continued in the same path they always had - they knew that their own gods had not abandoned them. At least the Heads of the Orders knew that for sure, as Par-Salian communed with them in regards to chosing his "sword" - Raistlin. The Orders maintained their "faith," so the gods would not abandon them.
There are many other reasons we could pull out as well, but in the end, it boils down to the fact that there are "more than enough" gods with clerics, but only three gods with "wizards." (Well, until the Gray Robes appear during the Chaos War, but you know what I mean!) ;)
Christopher
If anyone has it, check out pages 44, 46, and 47. Basically under each catergory for solinari, lunitari and nuitari, we have a section called "Follower's abilties. " These things were suppose to be available for clerics who follow the particular gods. under each, the spheres of arcane magic listed. i.e. under solinari, the spheres of white robe sorcery were available.
So, based on the AD&D1 rules, a cleric of Solinari had the spheres all, Abjuration, charm, conjuration, divination, enchantment, and evocation. They didn't get spells from the healing sheres. they could cast spells while wearing armor. As a trade off, they need to use wisdom, for spells that assume Intelligence is the primary ability stat. They gained levels at different rates to the AD&D1 wizards.
Now, Tales of the Lance expanded on what what written in DLA, making the Clerics of moon gods like todays 3e prestige class. They needed have a certain level as wizards before they could be clerics. And a lot of people didn't like it.
And in Tears of the Night Sky, the dislike from fans, was translated into the charater Valin, who was Crysania's representative to Solinari in her church. He didn't pray to Solinari for his spells.
There's ample evidence in Dragons of a Vanished moon, that suggest the three magic gods certainly have enough power to ressurect Palin and Dalamar, which i believe is divine more than arcane.
So, am i upset? nah. As trampas said, there are moon disciple prestige classes which i think are very much the same thing as that described in TotL. I can live with them or without them. The choice is up to the DM. but they shouldn't be commonplace NPCS in the campaign.
As chris pointed out, there's a lot of reasons why moon gods shouldn't have divine spell casters. and given the nature of healing and 3e cleric's ability to switch out a spell for a healing spell that will cause gameplay issues.
Originally posted by Stormprince
#4) In a way, the Orders of High Sorcery are the only clergy that the gods of magic need. When other gods "left" after the Cataclysm, the Orders of High Sorcery continued in the same path they always had - they knew that their own gods had not abandoned them. At least the Heads of the Orders knew that for sure, as Par-Salian communed with them in regards to chosing his "sword" - Raistlin. The Orders maintained their "faith," so the gods would not abandon them.
So what does this mean according to Dragonlance flavour?
1) Do Wizards in the Dragonlance Saga lose their powers at the whim or wrath of the moon dieties?
2) Do they have to do things like seek out a cleric of an aligned diety for an atonement spell?
3) Can you become a renegade for being an apostate?
4) Do you have to worship the dieties, and if so, what precepts do you have to follow? Do you have to swear to serve them, to serve magic, or both?
5) If the Wizards are clerics, then what is the difference between allowing their god based magic, rather than the mystic-based magic of the mystics? It seems the only thing different is spell effects rather than flavour.
6) Do you get new spell formulas "inspired" by the gods, or do you research them?
7) If the WoHS are clerics of the moon gods, what are dabblers in magic? Do they have to worship a moon god to gain magic, or only after they pass the test? Is this a key factor of why many seek to avoid the test, since this means the magic will no longer be their own?
8) Are sorcerers the ones who really learn and study magic, while the wizards simply chant spell formulas which are prayers to the moon gods in disguise?
So what does this mean according to Dragonlance flavour?
1) Do Wizards in the Dragonlance Saga lose their powers at the whim or wrath of the moon dieties?
Technically, yes. But: 1) I think the moons are too lawful to their own rules to reject the abilities of one who abides by the laws they've set down (whether they like it or not; and 2) Using the tactics of a renegade and casting the spells on your own you can circumvent the moons.
2) Do they have to do things like seek out a cleric of an aligned diety for an atonement spell?
I think the moons have separated themselves enough from the other gods, so that atonement would likely need to be achieved by either the moon god him/herself or at least another one of the others (which may mean switching robes). But then again, as I said, being a renegade is always a second option.
3) Can you become a renegade for being an apostate?
That's more or less the definition of it, less you never were of the Towers to start with.
4) Do you have to worship the dieties, and if so, what precepts do you have to follow? Do you have to swear to serve them, to serve magic, or both?
The gods are mostly concerned with the magic. So, by worshipping the magic (in essence), you worship the diety... even if the mages aren't dropping their knees and faces to the floor when one of them shows up.
5) If the Wizards are clerics, then what is the difference between allowing their god based magic, rather than the mystic-based magic of the mystics? It seems the only thing different is spell effects rather than flavour.
Divine magic is based on faith (either of a deity or in one's self); arcane magic is based on a manipulation of the world around you (either through the power of a moon deity with the ritual of memorization and focus on the casting technique, or through the pulling of the energy directly.. well, from the world around you).
6) Do you get new spell formulas "inspired" by the gods, or do you research them?
Could be both; could be just the second. Branchala may inspire the bards to make new art, but then again a bard can just write something on his own too.
7) If the WoHS are clerics of the moon gods, what are dabblers in magic? Do they have to worship a moon god to gain magic, or only after they pass the test? Is this a key factor of why many seek to avoid the test, since this means the magic will no longer be their own?
Think of it this way. The arcane magic is a gift from the moon gods that doesn't 'originate' from the moons themselves. Instead of Tower Mages pulling the magic directly too them, they use the lawful teachings of the moon to temper the magic prior to use.
8) Are sorcerers the ones who really learn and study magic, while the wizards simply chant spell formulas which are prayers to the moon gods in disguise?
Sorcerers are those that work with the arcane magic directly, pulling it in, shaping the spell to their wills, and releasing it. Wizards memorize the spells, keeping to a spell structure, and use the magic after it is processed through the gods. The moons are a middleman which are there to prevent the chaotic expansion of unchecked magic.
The structure spell formulas may be the equivalent to prayers to the moons, but the energies the moon gods receive is not truly because the mages worship the moons (although they might), but it because the mage is showing faith and respect to a process and order that the moons created. A renegade however uses the process in spite of the gods. The disrespect or intentional neglect of the gods prevents the 'worship' energies from reaching the gods and feeding them.
I might be off with this, but maybe the sorcerer is the physicist and the wizard is the engineer; both of whom have the ability to apply their studies.
Originally posted by ferratus
4) Do you have to worship the dieties, and if so, what precepts do you have to follow? Do you have to swear to serve them, to serve magic, or both?
Like Carteeg said, I don't see a difference, since all (or nearly so) the gods of magic care about is magic. The WoHS structure is the best example of how it all fits in: the orders have different moral views on the world and even perhaps on how magic should be used (kill/protect would be a crude way to put this), but they all revere magic before all else, and seek to develop it to the best of their abilities.
So do they in fact should have priests? In my campaign I kind of put a little of both sides: the gods of magic have clerics directly worshipping them, but the latter are more like special servants that seek to defend magic and preach its good use in the world. However, since the WoHS are (and should be) the "main" focus of the gods, there are only seven of these Chosen (nothing to do with FR, i just liked the sound of it) for each god of magic at any time on the planet.
This can make for very good role-playing and plot elements, especially when one of your players is the youngest Chosen of Solinari :D. Since they're so few and discover their calling through signs their god sends, they have no real formal organisation, and as a matter of fact they still are Wizards of High Sorcery ( because we started with TotL in 2nd ed... ) This way, each wander around the continent spreading the word of their god (revere magic and use it well) and they usually only encounter each other in Wayreth or by chance (yeah right...) meetings.
For 3rd ed. I made the Chosen a prestige class that requires arcane caster levels ( being a WoHS... ), and that can cast both arcane and divine magic. I won't go into details here, but I may post it either here or on the Nexus later. It's slightly powerful as it is, but the fact that there are only seven and that the DM gets to choose when they appear in the campaign doesn't brake too much game balance. Plus, since there is no real clergy, my player is more in a "discover my powers and destiny gradually" than in a "I'm the uber-wizard, fear my skillz" mood. As it should be. ;)
Originally posted by Halabis
Honestly, this is one aspect of the DLCS that I didnt like. They made WoHS to be more like clerics than like true mages. It just doesnt sit right with me. I mean consider if a young lad stumbles on a scroll one day and uses it to teach himself magic (he is a very bright lad). Now this kid would know nothing of the gods of magic, yet the DLCS would make him out to be a cleric of these gods.
The Wizards of High Sorcery aren't clerics of the Gods of Magic. They rely on the moon gods for the rituals and traditions bestowed upon them after the First Conclave and for the power sent to them to use, but they don't pray for their spells, the magic is arcane and not divine, they can't heal, affect undead, carry holy symbols, or conduct any of the traditional offices of clergy.
The hang-up here I think is the description of wizardly magic as "from the gods" when, ultimately, all magic on Krynn has its origin with the gods. Even mysticism and sorcery are left-over or derived from the creation of the world and the divine spirit of life. Wizards recognize and follow the edicts of the gods of magic but they're not clerics. Much the same as a dwarven blacksmith reveres Reorx for the power of the forge and the skill of smithing, a wizard reveres one of the gods of magic for the power of magic and the skill of wizardry. One assumes Reorx could lift the fire of the forges from the world if he really felt like it.
Cheers,
Cam
While wizardly and clerical magic does originate from the gods, how the gods grant that magic is the difference between the two.
Clerics have a connection of sorts with their respective deity. A cleric's deity directly grants magic to the cleric. In order for the cleric to possess his magic, he must pray each night, and perform whatever rituals.
The gods of magic, though, are different. They provide the magic, but they allow wizards to discover it for themselves. They don't require worship, although wizards do revere each of the moon gods, especially the one corresponding to their alignment.
Think of magic as a drinking pool. If a cleric is thirsty, he asks his deity for a glass of water from the pool. If a wizard is thirsty, he goes to the pool and gets himself a drink. Either way, the water in the pool is provided by the gods.
Hope that helps.
Originally posted by Halabis
and on that note, I dont realy undertstand how they dont grant spells or have domains. Under 3e ALL gods of devine rank 1+ have at least 3 domains. They may not grant them to thier followers, but they at least have them. =)
That's the basic assumption with Deities and Demigods, but the gods of magic aren't quite playing with the same rules for the Dragonlance campaign.
Cheers,
Cam
it goes something like this:
"the WoHS believe they hold a secret traditional science communicated to them by the three gods of magic, this is the Art. it has been enriched and revised from time to time by great wizards. it concerns little-known powers of the mortal mind. they are so secretive because their knowledge has such far-reaching consequences that if it fell into the "wrong hands" it could result in irreparable damage to Krynn. the Art of magical science holds spiritual truth, but is a mental, not spiritual, discipline."
now, that's a brief version of what i kind of see it as. they use symbol, ritual and formulae that becomes increasingly difficult to uderstand but once you do your mind is opened up to new possiblilities and thus through understanding they become closer to the gods they hold so dear....but that's just my take on the matter.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The hang-up here I think is the description of wizardly magic as "from the gods" when, ultimately, all magic on Krynn has its origin with the gods.
Nah, the hang-up is the assumption that the gods can simply remove magic from wizard characters with a thought. That is what makes them clerics.
That's a pretty damn big leash to put on ambitions of the mages, making them do what the gods want them to do. It also is almost impossible to do powerful renegade mages. Why is Dalamar almost stripped of his magic for selling out the moon gods to Takhisis while Raistlin, Fistandantilus, or Galan Dracos, or Ariakas were not?
The simple answer would be that Dalamar was effectively in the moon gods' custody when they made the threat, while the others were not. Obviously then, it would make sense for the moon gods to be able to strip magic from a mage, but only with great difficulty.
Originally posted by Halabis
and on that note, I dont realy undertstand how they dont grant spells or have domains. Under 3e ALL gods of devine rank 1+ have at least 3 domains. They may not grant them to thier followers, but they at least have them. =)
I'm currently statting out the Magic Gods using D&DG. I'm basically going with: although they don't grant divine spells or have clerics, they still have access to three domains for their own personal godly use (spell-like abilities and domain granted powers mostly) as the domains reflect the sum of their powers and portfolios.
Solinari gets: Good, Law, Magic
Lunitari gets: Law, Magic, Trickery
Nuitari gets: Evil, Law, Magic
I'd be for it. After all, when all the Gods left the world, they left too. The moons were gone, only a small pale orb left in their place.
After all, think of the synergy involved, if you could worship said god while also be a mage. Great way to introduce the Mystic Theurge into Dragonlance.
-Robert