First we have to examine what role the clerics and the mages have played in fantasy games. Certainly we have the wizards of Lord of the Rings in which they were angelic beings given human form. In D&D fantasy however the wizard was differentiated from the cleric in a core way. While the cleric is the agent of a divine force, the wizard is a power unto himself.
Now, we've got the roles shifted a bit on Krynn, but I think we can all agree that we shouldn't have half-cleric/half-mages. What we do have however is godly interference so this has to be resolved.
I would thus like to suggest that we approach the WoHS not like a vatican-style clerical heirarchy, but rather a Hellenic mystery cult. The spell formulas and rituals of the WoHS are secrets available only to the initiated. After all, the WoHS are always chasing after spellbooks. Crafting new spells was the sorcerer's shtick in the 5th age. I never saw Raistlin craft a new spell, and there are no spells named after powerful human mages. (Unless the DLCS changed that). Palin's Pyre for example, is a sorcerer spell.
Now, if we must have the gods of magic removing magic from people, at least make it involve a little bit of effort. Instead of allowing the gods to simply remove the power from wizards with a thought, they instead have to be physically present to remove the magical talents.
That would satisfy canon, and make for a reason for white robes to drag them back for trial. Black Robes simply kill them, while white robes deprive renegades of their power by "summoning" the gods to pass judgement and give punishment. After all, given that Krynn's cosmology is now seperate, you can't very well "send" renegades to other worlds now. Thus, there doesn't seem much reason for the white robes to drag a person back.
Being a renegade shouldn't automatically be a death sentence. After all, what if you have a CG mage who is a WoHS who learns that the head of the conclave is mutilating young wizards in order to make ethical points. Frankly, I can see a renegade or two developing from this. But would you, as a white robe, kill them for it? It doesn't seem just. Taking away their magic however, since a break with the conclave and its traditions is a break from responsibility. Taking away their magic seems appropriate. Plus, it gives the opportunity for redemption and forgiveness. Good redeems its own. See the end of "Wanna Bet" where a forgiven renegade promises to attend the next conclave (and bring cake!).
It would also satisfy canon in that wizards still have talent deep within them (Raistlin, Soulforge). It would still allow for the Knights of the Thorn to steal magic from all three moons (something impossible in a divine/cleric relationship). It would also explain why the moon gods could take the power away from Dalamar when he sold them out to the Dark Queen, but couldn't take away the power from Raistlin (whose crimes certainly weren't any less). The conclave and the gods of magic simply hadn't caught him.
Plus, it gives PC renegade hunters a reason to chase after a 20th level insane archmage renegade. They have to help the gods shut him down.
Originally posted by ferratus
It would also satisfy canon in that wizards still have talent deep within them (Raistlin, Soulforge). It would still allow for the Knights of the Thorn to steal magic from all three moons (something impossible in a divine/cleric relationship).
I think the association of the WoHS to a mystery cult (Hellenic or Roman, both of which would work perfectly well) is a fairly good one. It isn't in any real sense like a typical church organisation, its patron deities are removed from the rest of the pantheon, it has strict initiation and entry requirements, and it aligns itself along secretive orders, etc.
The Thorn Knights however gained their magic by the Dark Queen hijacking the magic of the moons and directing it straight to them. She's exhibited this behavior before - Ariakas is, in my opinion, the prototype of the Thorn Knight, with Galen Dracos being a much earlier experiment in the same thing. Takhisis has a fondness for renegades, yet another reason why Nuitari isn't exactly on good terms with her.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Being a renegade shouldn't automatically be a death sentence. After all, what if you have a CG mage who is a WoHS who learns that the head of the conclave is mutilating young wizards in order to make ethical points. Frankly, I can see a renegade or two developing from this. But would you, as a white robe, kill them for it? It doesn't seem just. Taking away their magic however, since a break with the conclave and its traditions is a break from responsibility. Taking away their magic seems appropriate. Plus, it gives the opportunity for redemption and forgiveness. Good redeems its own. See the end of "Wanna Bet" where a forgiven renegade promises to attend the next conclave (and bring cake!).
AFAIK, no product says a renegade is automatically killed once found. They even go on to that "white robes use least violence possible to bring him to the conclave, red robes use porportional violence to do the same thing and black robes force the renegade to join their order or suffer death".
White and Red robes (and in a limited extent, Black robes) allow the renegade a chance to repent by taking the test. If he declines that's where death occurs. You're not saying renegades that want to remain renegades should be allowed free reign, are you?
No mention is made (in previous products) of what is done to WoHS using banned weapons so that is a place that needs expansion. The other situation is in-fighting within the towers. The Last Tower mentions that undeground magical cells are used to hold renegades and WoHS who misbehave so I don't know why you seem to think established products dictate the death penalty for any and all offences.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I think the association of the WoHS to a mystery cult (Hellenic or Roman, both of which would work perfectly well) is a fairly good one. It isn't in any real sense like a typical church organisation, its patron deities are removed from the rest of the pantheon, it has strict initiation and entry requirements, and it aligns itself along secretive orders, etc.
Exactly. What I was thinking is that the moon gods don't give power, but rather give the knowledge necessary for power, and a source of power. The mages learn 'secret rituals' as a result of their initiation into the WoHS. These are the keys that are required for someone to read more and more advanced spellbooks. The moon gods for their part boost the power of the followers when their moon is ascendant, and grant the WoHS special abilities.
When a person goes renegade, they lose the influence of the moons and the special abilities granted by the WoHS prestige class (in a way similar to paladins). They do not however, lose their ability to cast spells. That means that this is the limit of godly control over arcane magic. It also means that renegades (unless they want to start over from the beginning as sorcerers) have to steal knowledge of the secret rituals available to wizards in order to continue to advance in power. That seems to me to be particularly appropriate. Don't you agree?
However, the moon gods obviously can strip the power from a mage. However, to make this simple kills all the fun out of hunting renegades. That is why we should give the gods of magic a complex means of "binding" the magic out of a mages' reach. For example, by giving them an artifact (such as perhaps a heartstone of a Tower of High Sorcery), or a particularly powerful spell (a variation of soul bind).
Then when a renegade is brought back by the white robes for trial, the malcontents are stripped of their power as a punishment and sent back into the world. "Do as thou wilt, good or evil, but not without the power of magic".
If you allow the moon gods to cut off the power at a whim, then the ambitions of the mage will cease to exist. A cleric's ambitions are the ambitions of his diety, for the simple reason that clerics who do not follow the wishes of their gods have their powers stripped. If you go along the path that "moon gods remove magic at will", you will have black robes following Nuitari's schemes and plans, or white robes following Solinari's goals and endeavours. See how Crysania talks at the beginning of "Time of the Twins"? I don't want my players to feel they have to talk like that.
I think that's why we need to set out, in crystal clear terms as well what exactly would cause one to become a renegade, in order to give DM's a guide. For example, I think attaining lichdom would be something that would make a wizard a renegade. Am I correct?
The Thorn Knights however gained their magic by the Dark Queen hijacking the magic of the moons and directing it straight to them. She's exhibited this behavior before - Ariakas is, in my opinion, the prototype of the Thorn Knight, with Galen Dracos being a much earlier experiment in the same thing. Takhisis has a fondness for renegades, yet another reason why Nuitari isn't exactly on good terms with her.
I know. I am giving Takhisis a way to steal magic from the moons. If she has stolen the "spell rituals" from the moon gods, then she has stolen their power. With the Thorn Knights, she collected a following of renegades under her banner (with "white spell rituals", "red spell rituals" and "black spell rituals") who cast their power from all three moons as a result of their stolen lore.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
AFAIK, no product says a renegade is automatically killed once found. They even go on to that "white robes use least violence possible to bring him to the conclave, red robes use porportional violence to do the same thing and black robes force the renegade to join their order or suffer death".
White and Red robes (and in a limited extent, Black robes) allow the renegade a chance to repent by taking the test. If he declines that's where death occurs. You're not saying renegades that want to remain renegades should be allowed free reign, are you?
No, I don't beleive that death should be the automatic punishment. In fact, DLA specifically says that renegades brought back for trial are "exiled" from the world.
However, given that Dragonlance has its own cosmology that isn't connected to the other planes or worlds anymore (except for outer planes directly connected to Krynn), it seems that a new punishment will have to be thought up. It also never really made sense in the first place. A renegade banished with magic is a renegade that can return with magic. Thus, stripping renegades of their magic would be a way to neutralize them.
No mention is made (in previous products) of what is done to WoHS using banned weapons so that is a place that needs expansion.
A little common sense is all that is needed here. Using "fighter" weapons would suffer the same penalties as a monk going chaotic. They simply don't advance in the WoHS prestige class anymore. They might be ostracized for it, or be denied entry into the Tower of High Sorcery. All this would be a natural outgrowth of someone flouting tradition or convention. However, it defies common sense for powerful mages being willing to kill over a mage using a 4 foot peice of metal (and not very well since he is studying magic rather than fencing) is absurd.
The other situation is in-fighting within the towers.
You mean within the orders? That's easy, they are in a constant state of civil war. That's why the towers were created, as "neutral ground". Thus, you have Black Robes in the Dragonarmies, and White Robes following the Whitestone forces. A good adventure seed would be a white robe catching up to a black robed enemy at a tower of high sorcery and slitting his throat. There would hell to pay, but what would the PC's do? The black robe has caused much suffering, and the tower of high sorcery was the only place that the other mage could put an end to his evil once and for all.
The Last Tower mentions that undeground magical cells are used to hold renegades and WoHS who misbehave so I don't know why you seem to think established products dictate the death penalty for any and all offences.
I can't see WoHS holding mages in underground cells, bound and gagged, for 80 years. Better to simply strip them of their magic and let them go. I can see one particular cell being used as an inward facing "magic circle against magic" which keeps them in place long enough for an avatar or three to cast "magic bind" though.
Thanx
Originally posted by ferratus
No, I don't beleive that death should be the automatic punishment. In fact, DLA specifically says that renegades brought back for trial are "exiled" from the world.
That's my point. Why bring the subject that renegades shouldn't be killed outright if that's not what you think the setting recommends?
However, given that Dragonlance has its own cosmology that isn't connected to the other planes or worlds anymore (except for outer planes directly connected to Krynn), it seems that a new punishment will have to be thought up. It also never really made sense in the first place. A renegade banished with magic is a renegade that can return with magic. Thus, stripping renegades of their magic would be a way to neutralize them.
Ah, no death penalty but torture instead? I like. ;)
A little common sense is all that is needed here. Using "fighter" weapons would suffer the same penalties as a monk going chaotic. They simply don't advance in the WoHS prestige class anymore.
What about those WoHS which don't have levels in the PrC?
They might be ostracized for it, or be denied entry into the Tower of High Sorcery. All this would be a natural outgrowth of someone flouting tradition or convention. However, it defies common sense for powerful mages being willing to kill over a mage using a 4 foot peice of metal (and not very well since he is studying magic rather than fencing) is absurd.
Again you mention killing. No where I can remember does it say a WoHS who uses banned weapons is killed.
You mean within the orders? That's easy, they are in a constant state of civil war. That's why the towers were created, as "neutral ground". Thus, you have Black Robes in the Dragonarmies, and White Robes following the Whitestone forces. A good adventure seed would be a white robe catching up to a black robed enemy at a tower of high sorcery and slitting his throat. There would hell to pay, but what would the PC's do? The black robe has caused much suffering, and the tower of high sorcery was the only place that the other mage could put an end to his evil once and for all.
I don't understand if you mean the PC is the one doing that action or if they are spectators but regardless this action breaks the second fundamental tenet of High Sorcery, the only one of the three which is actually a rule so as its gravest offence I don't see how the white robed could walk way with just a slap on the wrist. Off with his head already!
I can't see WoHS holding mages in underground cells, bound and gagged, for 80 years. Better to simply strip them of their magic and let them go. I can see one particular cell being used as an inward facing "magic circle against magic" which keeps them in place long enough for an avatar or three to cast "magic bind" though.
All the cells have permanent anti-magic effects and they are more like hallow cubes deep inside the earth with no physical connection either between themselves or the Tower of Wayreth. They are also only accessible by the Master of the Tower at Wayreth or some such.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
That's my point. Why bring the subject that renegades shouldn't be killed outright if that's not what you think the setting recommends?
You said so yourself that renegades should be killed if they refuse to take the test, or remain unrepentant. It is also the opinion of many in the dragonlance community that execution is something that the WoHS does routinely. (See the Defenders of Magic trilogy, or John Grubber's Mage hunting clerics, or Jamie Chamber's reference to a pogrom.)
Sometimes however, killing the renegade isn't the most just way to go about it. Black robes simply kill them to remove the problem. They are amoral, so that's they do. White Robes are another matter.
Take the apprentice of Antimodes who finds out that Par-Salin mutilated Raistlin. He says "oh crap, I'm outta here!" and goes renegade. Now should he be hunted down and killed by Antimodes? No, it seems that the only crime of this young man is not being willing to commit to the order and magic with his entire being, no matter what sacrifices that entails. Thus, the appropriate punishment would be to strip him of his magic, and leave him to continue on with his life.
There are numerous other situations in which it wouldn't be morally acceptable to execute someone, when the alternative is available.
What about those WoHS which don't have levels in the PrC?
Well that's a problem I didn't create. By having a WoHS prestige class, it necessarily harder to go renegade, given that most of your special abilities are directly "god-influenced" like the boost they get from the moons.
I just assume that mages without the prestige class are simply not as devoted to the conclave or the gods, despite being members/followers. Thus, the shocking loss of power due to going renegade is less severe for them.
Again you mention killing. No where I can remember does it say a WoHS who uses banned weapons is killed.
It's an unspoken assumption that the WoHS uses lethal force to solve any and all dissent. I want to nip that in the bud.
I don't understand if you mean the PC is the one doing that action or if they are spectators but regardless this action breaks the second fundamental tenet of High Sorcery, the only one of the three which is actually a rule so as its gravest offence I don't see how the white robed could walk way with just a slap on the wrist. Off with his head already!
Oh sorry, I should have been more clear. The PC's in that scenerio would be renegade hunters, either officially or as a favour to the conclave. Thus I assumed killing on "neutral ground" would make one a renegade.
Notice you also say "off with his head already". See what I mean about unspoken assumptions?
All the cells have permanent anti-magic effects and they are more like hallow cubes deep inside the earth with no physical connection either between themselves or the Tower of Wayreth. They are also only accessible by the Master of the Tower at Wayreth or some such.
I still don't see them holding anyone but the most dangerous spellcasters in those cells for 80 years, when they can be just stripped of their magic. Heck, I think the only ones they would store in those cells are not renegade wizards, but scions and sorcerers (who presumably cannot have their magic stripped by the moon gods).
Originally posted by SweetMeats
My knowledge of the Greeks is a little vague here. Could you describe the workings of an Hellenic cult?
Thanx
Which cult? ;)
Okay, basically think of it as a fraternity or masonic lodge, who worship a particular diety. They have their own rituals, microcosmic community, and practices. These were usually centered around acheiving life (or a better life) after death.
For more info, I'm afraid you are going to have to go the library, preferably a university library. Do not trust the internet or the new age book section of your local bookstore for factual information about non-contemporary religious practices.
Originally posted by ferratus
You said so yourself that renegades should be killed if they refuse to take the test, or remain unrepentant. It is also the opinion of many in the dragonlance community that execution is something that the WoHS does routinely. (See the Defenders of Magic trilogy, or John Grubber's Mage hunting clerics, or Jamie Chamber's reference to a pogrom.)
Sure for this instance, what you imply however (and reinforce in this post) is that established products imply the WoHS always kills renegades regardless of the offence.
But I ask again, if a renegade is captured and told to take the test and declines do you think death isn't a plausible penalty and worthy punishment for it?
Sometimes however, killing the renegade isn't the most just way to go about it. Black robes simply kill them to remove the problem. They are amoral, so that's they do. White Robes are another matter.
Good aligned characters kill. Paladins kill. Everything is relative. To the white robe a renegade is seen as an heretic that must repent or burn to the stake so to speak. That renegade may actually be a cool guy and even Good aligned. That still doesn't change the fact that D&D's alignment is an absolute measure of a relative reality. It's not factual and it's always subjective. A white robe would have no problems ridding the world from a menace to High Sorcery after he had given the renegade ample time and opportunity to repent. And he wouldn't change alignment either.
Take the apprentice of Antimodes who finds out that Par-Salin mutilated Raistlin. He says "oh crap, I'm outta here!" and goes renegade. Now should he be hunted down and killed by Antimodes?
No. He would be hunted only if he continued to use spells of x level. No one is forcing him to continue advancing his spellcasting. If he can't stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. That's basically the notion apprentice wizards have of the Test: a necessary evil to prevent mediocre mages from screwing up a spell and hurt their fellow colleagues. So, if the apprentice can't handle the Conclave's decisions he either stops his spellcasting or must accept being hunted down and ultimately erradicated for the sake of High Sorcery.
No, it seems that the only crime of this young man is not being willing to commit to the order and magic with his entire being, no matter what sacrifices that entails. Thus, the appropriate punishment would be to strip him of his magic, and leave him to continue on with his life.
This may work in novels but how do you do this permanent drain in D&D? Is it a spell or perhaps through the Gods of magic? And will the character end up with 8 (or whatever) levels of a now useless class? How will that affect his Character Level? He lost his spellcasting but still has hit points, feats, etc. Should that be a Class Level - 3? -5?
There are numerous other situations in which it wouldn't be morally acceptable to execute someone, when the alternative is available.
Morals are dictated by personal circumstances. From my point of view a white robe is perfectly justified in executing a major threat to High Sorcery as a whole (kinda like Paladins upholding the Greater Good even if that means failing their duties at a smaller scale). Not every single transgression would warrant execution however, that much I can agree with your view but for me, refusing to take the test being aware of the consequences, breaking one of the three rules of High Sorcery and severe overt/covert conspiracies against the Conclave warrant an execution. Banned weapons, failing to pay the rent of your Wayreth laboratory and so on could be dealt with reprimands up to imprisonment.
It's an unspoken assumption that the WoHS uses lethal force to solve any and all dissent. I want to nip that in the bud.
I disagree this applies to every and all transgressions but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
Oh sorry, I should have been more clear. The PC's in that scenerio would be renegade hunters, either officially or as a favour to the conclave. Thus I assumed killing on "neutral ground" would make one a renegade.
They would only suffer consequences if they were WoHS themselves. In fact, I would put it past some wizard to contract the PCs so that a rival could be eliminated without drawing excessive attention to him/herself... at least until an investigation is underway.
If the PCs are working for the Conclave and do this, nothing easier for the conclave to do than to label said WoHS as renegade, thus allow him to be killed within the tower. With this in mind, the conclave would probably don't even need a party of non-WoHSs to do this and just sound the alarm over the Tower's comunications system: "this is not a drill, ex-WoHS now renegade Joe Spill on the 3rd floor. All hands to battle stations. Whoever gets him gets a cookie."
I still don't see them holding anyone but the most dangerous spellcasters in those cells for 80 years, when they can be just stripped of their magic. Heck, I think the only ones they would store in those cells are not renegade wizards, but scions and sorcerers (who presumably cannot have their magic stripped by the moon gods).
What's stopping the renegade who was stripped his High Sorcery from returning with a vengeance with 10 levels in Cleric or Sorcerer? Stripping the magic just postpones the threat to the conclave. And after he's captured again, he's going to be locked/killed because now his magic can't be stripped. Might as well locked/killed him in the first place and get it over with. It would also reduce casualties in the second encounter.
Edit: for clarity (I hope
)So, I don't consider it a done deal even after the Conclave issues a renegade warrant with "dead or alive" written on it. Having said that, in the Soulforge Raistlin enacted justice on those seekers and didn't wait for an official mandate, jury or execution order (though IIRC, he was slapped on the wrist by Antimodes because of his brashness). He simply followed the teachings of the Conclave concerning the protection of High Sorcery. Zealous? Definitely, but that just makes your equation of WoHS with greek cabals that much stronger.
I mean it could be said a renegade is anyone that doesn't follow the rules/laws set by the WoHS, but I believe that's too general.
I mean if a Black Robe kills another Wizard (regardless of Colour) within the Tower's grounds does that make him a renegade or just simply a criminal for breaking a law? Would criminal and renegade be interchangable?
I assumed a renegade was one that broke the more fundamental laws/rules of the WoHS. Like a wizard that draws on all 3 moons for spellcasting, or a wizard that continues to advance in sorcery without taking the test even if he tends to just draw from one of the moons, or a wizard that also becomes proficient in weapons use.
I think in order to determine the proper punishment for a renegade you have to determine exactly what a renegade is.
I mean is a wizard a renegade if he, through desparation, picks up a sword, perhaps after he exhausted his spells, and starts swinging it to defend hisself? I would say: lawbreaker, yes... renegade no.
So what makes a wizard a renegade? Your thoughts?
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Sure for this instance, what you imply however (and reinforce in this post) is that established products imply the WoHS always kills renegades regardless of the offence.
But I ask again, if a renegade is captured and told to take the test and declines do you think death isn't a plausible penalty and worthy punishment for it?
Not when the option of stripping magic from them is available.
There are many reasons when death isn't a viable option. What if a renegade is the brother of a particularly powerful king? If you kill the brother, then you have a blood feud. Return him to the king unharmed, and you might even be thanked for it.
Good aligned characters kill. Paladins kill. Everything is relative. To the white robe a renegade is seen as an heretic that must repent or burn to the stake so to speak. That renegade may actually be a cool guy and even Good aligned. That still doesn't change the fact that D&D's alignment is an absolute measure of a relative reality. It's not factual and it's always subjective. A white robe would have no problems ridding the world from a menace to High Sorcery after he had given the renegade ample time and opportunity to repent. And he wouldn't change alignment either.
Oh, I'm not trying to make a moral judgement on the validity (or lack therof) of capital punishment. I'm simply trying to find a way to make the whole "gods can strip magic from mortals" that the whitestone council and Sovereign Press is insisting upon workable.
If you make the gods stripping the magic from mortals the result of a trial, then you have a time and a place for when the gods can intervene. Otherwise Dalamar being threatened with the loss of his magic, and Raistlin not being threatened with the loss of his magic doesn't make sense. However, Dalamar is threatened with the loss of his magic at the end of WoS, and Raistlin loses his magic in DoSF because both were effectively captured by the gods. It wasn't merely a matter of the gods turning it off with a thought.
No. He would be hunted only if he continued to use spells of x level. No one is forcing him to continue advancing his spellcasting. If he can't stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. That's basically the notion apprentice wizards have of the Test: a necessary evil to prevent mediocre mages from screwing up a spell and hurt their fellow colleagues. So, if the apprentice can't handle the Conclave's decisions he either stops his spellcasting or must accept being hunted down and ultimately erradicated for the sake of High Sorcery.
Yep, which stripping him of his magic would do. It would effectively turn a wizard into a commoner in terms of hit points, BAB, and skill points. Their saving throws might be a bit better, but that would be it.
You have to remember, the WoHS has no moral authority over how anyone lives their lives. "Go and do what you wilt, but without magic" fits them better thematically then "you have done wrong, so you must be punished".
This may work in novels but how do you do this permanent drain in D&D? Is it a spell or perhaps through the Gods of magic? And will the character end up with 8 (or whatever) levels of a now useless class? How will that affect his Character Level? He lost his spellcasting but still has hit points, feats, etc. Should that be a Class Level - 3? -5?
It would be an ability of the gods of magic themselves (perhaps through an artifact of some sort), and would work exactly as a cleric or paladin who has sinned (but not atoned) would work. Essentially it woul be a non-spellcasting wizard.
Morals are dictated by personal circumstances. From my point of view a white robe is perfectly justified in executing a major threat to High Sorcery as a whole (kinda like Paladins upholding the Greater Good even if that means failing their duties at a smaller scale). Not every single transgression would warrant execution however, that much I can agree with your view but for me, refusing to take the test being aware of the consequences, breaking one of the three rules of High Sorcery and severe overt/covert conspiracies against the Conclave warrant an execution. Banned weapons, failing to pay the rent of your Wayreth laboratory and so on could be dealt with reprimands up to imprisonment.
If it wasn't for the fact that the gods can simply remove magic from someone I'd agree with you. There would be no other way to sufficiently deal with the threat except through death. That would simply be the circumstance of this power. After all, you couldn't imprison them, you couldn't cast them to another plane, you couldn't do anything to prevent their menace.
But since the gods can remove magic, then obviously that's another level of control, and one that is more morally acceptable (and oftimes more practical) if available. Especially since the conclave isn't concerned with the enforcement of laws and morals in the wider world. A black robe would never become a renegade for using his power to spread evil, so why would they be concerned if a powerless renegade spreads evil using mundane abilities? White robed mages can stop him if they wish, but it would no longer be the conclaves' concern.
Don't blame me, I didn't bring in the whole "Gods can remove magic" mess into the mix. It would be a lot simpler if they couldn't, and I still agree that the moon gods shouldn't be allowed to. But if what is written in WoS is absolutely sacred, and damn the thematic consequences... well let's just make this work properly then.
What's stopping the renegade who was stripped his High Sorcery from returning with a vengeance with 10 levels in Cleric or Sorcerer? Stripping the magic just postpones the threat to the conclave. And after he's captured again, he's going to be locked/killed because now his magic can't be stripped. Might as well locked/killed him in the first place and get it over with. It would also reduce casualties in the second encounter.
Nothing is stopping them, but it takes years to regain their levels in sorcery. That would in fact be a quandry for the renegade who isn't caught. Start over again with sorcery, or steal secrets and spellbooks as a renegade? The former would be a less rewarding (but less risky) path to power, while the other is fraught with danger and the possibility of vengence.
Besides, what you just said is the way a black robe (and a few red robes) would think. Of course, they are probably advocating declaring war on the Knights of Solamnia and the Clergy of Paladine for the same reason.
The white robes would be a lot more idealistic. Besides, perhaps with a few years without magic, perhaps he'll be suitably repentant and we can let him back into the fold. I hear he makes a terrific devil's food cake.
Originally posted by ferratus
Not when the option of stripping magic from them is available.
There are many reasons when death isn't a viable option. What if a renegade is the brother of a particularly powerful king? If you kill the brother, then you have a blood feud. Return him to the king unharmed, and you might even be thanked for it.
I can see that. As a special attenuating circunstance. Something which would favour the renegade at the trial I mention above. The default penalty can still be death.
Oh, I'm not trying to make a moral judgement on the validity (or lack therof) of capital punishment. I'm simply trying to find a way to make the whole "gods can strip magic from mortals" that the whitestone council and Sovereign Press is insisting upon workable.
It's workable but not exactly common. By your view, why do apprentices who fail the Test have to die?
If you make the gods stripping the magic from mortals the result of a trial, then you have a time and a place for when the gods can intervene. Otherwise Dalamar being threatened with the loss of his magic, and Raistlin not being threatened with the loss of his magic doesn't make sense. However, Dalamar is threatened with the loss of his magic at the end of WoS, and Raistlin loses his magic in DoSF because both were effectively captured by the gods. It wasn't merely a matter of the gods turning it off with a thought.
I'm confused. Do you agree with god's magic toggle or not?
You have to remember, the WoHS has no moral authority over how anyone lives their lives. "Go and do what you wilt, but without magic" fits them better thematically then "you have done wrong, so you must be punished".
They can kill those who fail the Test. It's established that every WoHS is bound by the laws of the Conclave. When one of those laws says that morals have no place inside the towers I'd say that gives WoHS some degree of authority over their members and those who would intrude upon their (perceived) exclusive area of expertise.
It would be an ability of the gods of magic themselves (perhaps through an artifact of some sort), and would work exactly as a cleric or paladin who has sinned (but not atoned) would work. Essentially it woul be a non-spellcasting wizard.
Yes, but what are the game consequences? For XP purposes is the character considered Character Level -1 (such as a commoner), etc.?
If it wasn't for the fact that the gods can simply remove magic from someone I'd agree with you. There would be no other way to sufficiently deal with the threat except through death. That would simply be the circumstance of this power. After all, you couldn't imprison them, you couldn't cast them to another plane, you couldn't do anything to prevent their menace.
Well, I've described the magic cells beneath the Tower of Wayreth and Tales of the Lance mentions (p91) how White Robes who capture a renegade mage who then declines to join the WoHS is "magically cast out of Krynn".
But since the gods can remove magic, then obviously that's another level of control, and one that is more morally acceptable (and oftimes more practical) if available. Especially since the conclave isn't concerned with the enforcement of laws and morals in the wider world. A black robe would never become a renegade for using his power to spread evil, so why would they be concerned if a powerless renegade spreads evil using mundane abilities? White robed mages can stop him if they wish, but it would no longer be the conclaves' concern.
Sure, but do you see the Master of the Conclave sending messages to the moon gods saying "hmm could you take spellcasting away from that guy... oh and his sister too. They're very irresponsible. I promise, this will be my last request for the week." I don't see it happening. In the case of Raistlin, the gods were directly involved (and Raistlin's power level was much, much higher).
Don't blame me, I didn't bring in the whole "Gods can remove magic" mess into the mix. It would be a lot simpler if they couldn't, and I still agree that the moon gods shouldn't be allowed to. But if what is written in WoS is absolutely sacred, and damn the thematic consequences... well let's just make this work properly then.
Not blaming anyone heh. I do think you're taking it too literally. Gods taking the magic from mortal wizards would explain Raistlin (and a few other rare cases) but IMHO, and there might be others who disagree, I don't think it should be used. It cheapens the gods who seem to be directed by the Conclave and at the same time, push forward the notion that Krynn's deities are very heavy handed in the world's affairs. We've been trying to get away from Fizban/Takhisis during Chronicles. This brings it all back again.
Nothing is stopping them, but it takes years to regain their levels in sorcery. That would in fact be a quandry for the renegade who isn't caught. Start over again with sorcery, or steal secrets and spellbooks as a renegade? The former would be a less rewarding (but less risky) path to power, while the other is fraught with danger and the possibility of vengence.
heh, because of 3E's XP progression a character can reach 20th level before a year in the campaign has passed. I know what you're saying though, but my point is that something that can help explain a novel event shouldn't be (overly) used during the game.
Besides, what you just said is the way a black robe (and a few red robes) would think. Of course, they are probably advocating declaring war on the Knights of Solamnia and the Clergy of Paladine for the same reason.
The white robes would be a lot more idealistic. Besides, perhaps with a few years without magic, perhaps he'll be suitably repentant and we can let him back into the fold. I hear he makes a terrific devil's food cake.
Or perhaps he's so deranged for losing his focused arcane spellcasting (think Dalamar) that he'll stop at nothing before destroying all the Conclave. Goes well both ways. Which, as I think about it, makes great RP opportunities. My reluctance to use the moon gods to fix every problem still stands though.
Hey, you know what, I think this would make a greate article for the Tobril *hint, nudge* ;)
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I can see that. As a special attenuating circunstance. Something which would favour the renegade at the trial I mention above. The default penalty can still be death.
See, I don't see it. The conclave is charged with maintaining the responsible practice of magic.
They are not charged with upholding laws based on a moral code... in fact, moral laws are completely outside their juristiction. The exception to this of course are crimes commited inside the Tower of High Sorcery, but that is less a matter of justice than it is of protocol.
As such, the most effective way to police magic is to remove magic... if such an method is available. After all, we don't want the renegade making a deal with Chemosh do we? We don't want them coming back as a revenant if the soul feels it was wrongly punished. We don't want family members or influential people calling for blood in return for blood. We don't want black robes to realize that a larger number their order tend to die in these trials, because they are more willing to break the rules.
The big question though, is that who gave the conclave the right to decide who can live or die? These mages are all citizens of other nations, and have rights. The mandate of the conclave is to police magic, not to take lives. If the mandate can be fullfilled without infringing on the rights of sovereign nations, so much the better don't you think?
By your view, why do apprentices who fail the Test have to die?
I'm not, when I think renegade, I think of someone who is refusing to take the test, or has already taken it and betrayed the order. I can't see many mages forgetting to get it done. It isn't exactly a hair appointment.
I'm confused. Do you agree with god's magic toggle or not?
I disagree. However, there was nothing I could do to convince anyone from Sov Press or the Whitestone Council how bad of an idea it is. Just as I couldn't convince them about moving up the prestige class requirements for the WoHS to 3rd level arcane spells. So as a punishment, they will have to endure my endless stream of multi-classed renegade wizards. ;)
However, since the "magic toggle" has been affirmed from on high, I am talking about what must be done to make the godly intervention as minimal as possible. After all, if the "magic toggle" is left to the DM's discretion, then it will be completely inconsistent from one campaign to the next about when this power is invoked and under what circumstances. Heck, a player might find himself stripped of magic simply because the DM has decided he has eluded the renegade hunters too long!
The trial marking the point where the gods intervene seems to be the solution then. It allows for the heavy lifting of renegade hunting to be left to the PC's and their ilk, and makes for a satisfying resolution to an adventure.
They can kill those who fail the Test. It's established that every WoHS is bound by the laws of the Conclave. When one of those laws says that morals have no place inside the towers I'd say that gives WoHS some degree of authority over their members and those who would intrude upon their (perceived) exclusive area of expertise.
The difference is that people volunteer for the test and leave of their own free will. It is also the case that failing the test is a rare occurance. Going renegade probably isn't so rare, especially since you have to join them as soon as you can cast pitiful 2nd level spells.
Yes, but what are the game consequences? For XP purposes is the character considered Character Level -1 (such as a commoner), etc.?
No, when the gods of magic shut him down, he is considered a level (x) wizard that cannot cast spells. Just like a cleric who isn't on speaking terms with his diety is a level (x) cleric who cannot cast spells.
Completely unplayable for the long term of course, but one hell of a curse to work up from in the short term if you are willing to seek redemption from the conclave and be restored, probably through a quest of some sort.
Well, I've described the magic cells beneath the Tower of Wayreth and Tales of the Lance mentions (p91) how White Robes who capture a renegade mage who then declines to join the WoHS is "magically cast out of Krynn".
A wizard is just a gate or a planeshift back home, especially if he makes a pact with an outsider who usually has such an ability anyway. Probably why the 5th Age team didn't go with it.
The magical cells would work for short term punishment I agree, along with several other types of punishment. But why keep them locked up when you can just strip away their magic?
Sure, but do you see the Master of the Conclave sending messages to the moon gods saying "hmm could you take spellcasting away from that guy... oh and his sister too. They're very irresponsible. I promise, this will be my last request for the week." I don't see it happening. In the case of Raistlin, the gods were directly involved (and Raistlin's power level was much, much higher).
That's my whole point. The gods are directly involved when removing magic from an individual. That's what makes it possible to even consider being a renegade. The wizards have to catch up with you, and turn your over to the gods for a direct de-magicking.
Not blaming anyone heh. I do think you're taking it too literally. Gods taking the magic from mortal wizards would explain Raistlin (and a few other rare cases) but IMHO, and there might be others who disagree, I don't think it should be used. It cheapens the gods who seem to be directed by the Conclave and at the same time, push forward the notion that Krynn's deities are very heavy handed in the world's affairs. We've been trying to get away from Fizban/Takhisis during Chronicles. This brings it all back again.
Yep, and takes away the ability for mages to independantly scheme.
Appeal to Sovereign Press and the other members of the Whitestone Council. They are the ones who are taking this literally. Myself, I think the power that mages should weild should belong to them, rather than being given and denied by the mages.
If it must be something that the gods can strip away, let's determine exactly how and when it can be done. Requiring a direct capture by mortal hands, a trial, and punishment given directly by the gods seems to be the least intrusive way to handle the assertion that "gods can take away magic".
heh, because of 3E's XP progression a character can reach 20th level before a year in the campaign has passed. I know what you're saying though, but my point is that something that can help explain a novel event shouldn't be (overly) used during the game.
Heh, if that was beleived, we wouldn't have elfsight.
Or perhaps he's so deranged for losing his focused arcane spellcasting (think Dalamar) that he'll stop at nothing before destroying all the Conclave. Goes well both ways. Which, as I think about it, makes great RP opportunities. My reluctance to use the moon gods to fix every problem still stands though.
A reluctance I share. Again, not my fault. I'm just trying to make it workable.
As for the "going insane from loss of magic". Caramon would have done the same if they had killed his brother. Most renegades will have relatives and friends who will want revenge. So the conclave is screwed either way.
I still think the stripping of magic (if it is part of the setting) would be more practical. If the "powers that be" finally decide to listen to reason and make the moon gods unable to strip magic from their wizards, then death is the only sure way to solve the problem with a renegade.
Hey, you know what, I think this would make a greate article for the Tobril *hint, nudge* ;)
I can't write that article until I have the DLCS, the Age of Mortals, and the book on Magic coming in January.
Besides, I've already been given an assignment for the Torbril. An article covering the Scaled Society, further details on Sable and her realm, and the Blackspawn. I need the Age of Mortals book for that, so I know if Sable is still alive.
I'd also like to do a Torbril article on "The Complete Flotsam". I can start as soon as someone types up the city's description in the DLCS.
Originally posted by ferratus
[b]As such, the most effective way to police magic is to remove magic... if such an method is available. After all, we don't want the renegade making a deal with Chemosh do we? We don't want them coming back as a revenant if the soul feels it was wrongly punished. We don't want family members or influential people calling for blood in return for blood. We don't want black robes to realize that a larger number their order tend to die in these trials, because they are more willing to break the rules.[b]
Heh, as long as they maintain 7 members on the Conclave their authority is maintained and besides, the less black robes there are the more chances those who remain have of getting on the Conclave, sneaky bastards those black robes.
The big question though, is that who gave the conclave the right to decide who can live or die? These mages are all citizens of other nations, and have rights. The mandate of the conclave is to police magic, not to take lives. If the mandate can be fullfilled without infringing on the rights of sovereign nations, so much the better don't you think?
They gave the right to themselves. Who gave Knights of Solamnia the right to decide who is honourable and who isn't? Who gave the Kingpriest the right to decide who is evil? The mandate of the Conclave is to protect High Sorcery at all cost. If that involves killing renegades so be it. If they infringe on the rights of individuals of sovereign nations so be it (unless those nations are dangerously powerful - like Istar was).
I'm not, when I think renegade, I think of someone who is refusing to take the test, or has already taken it and betrayed the order. I can't see many mages forgetting to get it done. It isn't exactly a hair appointment.
To the eyes of the Conclave that makes it worse, doesn't it?
However, since the "magic toggle" has been affirmed from on high, I am talking about what must be done to make the godly intervention as minimal as possible. After all, if the "magic toggle" is left to the DM's discretion, then it will be completely inconsistent from one campaign to the next about when this power is invoked and under what circumstances. Heck, a player might find himself stripped of magic simply because the DM has decided he has eluded the renegade hunters too long!
How about: "magic toggle is only used when characters are in direct presence of the Moon gods after the Conclave has done everything in their power to eradicate the threat" (Raistlin, Dalamar).
The difference is that people volunteer for the test and leave of their own free will. It is also the case that failing the test is a rare occurance. Going renegade probably isn't so rare, especially since you have to join them as soon as you can cast pitiful 2nd level spells.
The problem is that the Conclave just assumes every focused arcane caster capable of 2nd/3rd (whatever) spells falls under the long arm of the Conclave. Whether renegades agree with this or not, and whether they even know about this or not is simply not relevant for the Conclave. Is this reasonable? Don't ask me, but that's what they believe.
No, when the gods of magic shut him down, he is considered a level (x) wizard that cannot cast spells. Just like a cleric who isn't on speaking terms with his diety is a level (x) cleric who cannot cast spells.
But a player character who decides to play a cleric knowingly accepts the divine link and the consequences. A player character who decides to play a wizard does not (at least in the case of straight renegades. Ex-WoHS would be aware of this).
So, the burden is on the PC in the case of clerics so if they lose their spellcasting they still receive XP as if they were spellcasters but with wizards they lost their powers because of the "roleplaying rule" of the campaign. They're not as powerful as their level indicates but still receive the same XP. Since you protect the D&D classes so much, shouldn't you rally against it?
A wizard is just a gate or a planeshift back home, especially if he makes a pact with an outsider who usually has such an ability anyway. Probably why the 5th Age team didn't go with it.
But think of the roleplaying opportunities this brings. ;)
The magical cells would work for short term punishment I agree, along with several other types of punishment. But why keep them locked up when you can just strip away their magic?
Because of the downsides: gods' heavy handed influence in semi-mundane matters, the question of "blame" when it comes to assigning XP by class level, and the fact that previous sources have established the death penalty for all major offences.
Appeal to Sovereign Press and the other members of the Whitestone Council. They are the ones who are taking this literally. Myself, I think the power that mages should weild should belong to them, rather than being given and denied by the mages.
If you stop using the "rule" you're one step closer to making it go away. Kinda like myself with 3.5 weapon sizes... ;)
If it must be something that the gods can strip away, let's determine exactly how and when it can be done. Requiring a direct capture by mortal hands, a trial, and punishment given directly by the gods seems to be the least intrusive way to handle the assertion that "gods can take away magic".
I prefer the one I state above: "magic toggle is only used when characters are in direct presence of the Moon gods after the Conclave has done everything in their power to eradicate the threat"
Heh, if that was beleived, we wouldn't have elfsight.
I think Chris already explained but here it is again, when SP sent the book to WotC it had a different type of "elfsight". When WotC returned the draft to SP it was like the final one. One of those things...
As for the "going insane from loss of magic". Caramon would have done the same if they had killed his brother. Most renegades will have relatives and friends who will want revenge. So the conclave is screwed either way.
Only a significantly powerful nation of non-spellcasters (Istar) or a powerful organization of spellcaster (Knights of the Thorn) could hold off any Conclave action. Caramon might have been a high level Fighter but he'd die after cutting down one or two high level wizards.
I still think the stripping of magic (if it is part of the setting) would be more practical. If the "powers that be" finally decide to listen to reason and make the moon gods unable to strip magic from their wizards, then death is the only sure way to solve the problem with a renegade.
It's not that clear cut. This was somewhat introduced with WoS. Dalamar getting his old magic back, and to explain Raistlin. Moon gods should have the option to turn it off (since they're like "regular" gods and their clerics). Having said that, they should only excercise this option when all solutions have been explored and when the proverbial manure has hit the proverbial fan. ;)
Keeping it a novel-event is perfectly fine with me. I still stand by Tracy's view that the novel world and gaming world need not necessarily be the same.
I can't write that article until I have the DLCS, the Age of Mortals, and the book on Magic coming in January.
Oh come on, fine on the DLCS and AoM count since they're coming within a fortnight or so but surely material on the Conclave would be needed before the "magic" book. And hey, if someone likes it who knows? ;)
Besides, I've already been given an assignment for the Torbril. An article covering the Scaled Society, further details on Sable and her realm, and the Blackspawn. I need the Age of Mortals book for that, so I know if Sable is still alive.
Looking forward to them. Just don't make all of Sable's underlings assassins trying to get rid of their Overlord so they can sell the then drained swamp at highly inflationed prices. =)
I'd also like to do a Torbril article on "The Complete Flotsam". I can start as soon as someone types up the city's description in the DLCS.
Sounds great.
Originally posted by talinthas
hey, can i do an article on the Complete Lantern?
Perhaps I'm brain dead but I can't remember that reference. Anyway, you should email us at [email]tobril@dragonlance.com[/email] with a proposal (doesn't need to be big) for the article so we can get a better idea on what issue it should be done for (themes), how many pages it will take, if you need cartography done, etc.
its a dot there called lantern.
In my spare time i lavishly detail every part of the town, the cult of sirrion that resides there, the gnomish merchants stranded since the cataclysm, the group of librarians who escaped from tarsis to there, etc etc =)
Originally posted by talinthas
Look on your totl map, a little to the east of tarsis.
its a dot there called lantern.
In my spare time i lavishly detail every part of the town, the cult of sirrion that resides there, the gnomish merchants stranded since the cataclysm, the group of librarians who escaped from tarsis to there, etc etc =)
Ah... excellent then. It also sounds like it would make a great home base for PCs. Email us ;).
Originally posted by Richard Connery
They gave the right to themselves. Who gave Knights of Solamnia the right to decide who is honourable and who isn't? Who gave the Kingpriest the right to decide who is evil? The mandate of the Conclave is to protect High Sorcery at all cost. If that involves killing renegades so be it. If they infringe on the rights of individuals of sovereign nations so be it (unless those nations are dangerously powerful - like Istar was).
The Knights of Solamnia are a legitimate authority within the borders of Solamnia. What you are describing is a rogue organization which gives itself the right to indulge in kidnapping and assassination. I simply cannot agree with that.
I think the conclave has to come to agreements with the legitimate rulers of the land in order to have the right to police magic within their borders. Most rulers would gratefully accept, because it allows for some control on weird powers, and makes mages much easier to identify. I cannot agree that the conclave has the power to make war on an entire world. They are a powerful kingdom in and of themselves, but they are not omnipotent.
How about: "magic toggle is only used when characters are in direct presence of the Moon gods after the Conclave has done everything in their power to eradicate the threat" (Raistlin, Dalamar).
We are so, so close to being in complete agreement. We agree that the moon gods have to be present.
However, I think it should be possible for a renegade to die in his bed, in full possession of his power. Extremely difficult (almost impossible) to be sure, but give the players who want to renegade something to shoot for. Everyone needs goals.
So obviously then, the moon gods cannot simply manifest beside the mage whenever they feel like it and strip the magic off. So thus, the mage has to be apprehended in some way. The moon gods can hunt them down themselves through legwork if he is a really serious threat (Raistlin, Dalamar). Most of the time though, for run of the mill renegades, the WoHS makes perfect sense as people to do the legwork of hunting renegades.
The problem is that the Conclave just assumes every focused arcane caster capable of 2nd/3rd (whatever) spells falls under the long arm of the Conclave. Whether renegades agree with this or not, and whether they even know about this or not is simply not relevant for the Conclave. Is this reasonable? Don't ask me, but that's what they believe.
Oh, I have no disagreement with what the conclave thinks. I just disagree that everyone will simply agree with it. I think there should be realms out there where the conclave is almost part of the government, and some nations where they do act as a rogue organization. More variety and all that.
But a player character who decides to play a cleric knowingly accepts the divine link and the consequences. A player character who decides to play a wizard does not (at least in the case of straight renegades. Ex-WoHS would be aware of this).
A wizard does too, acording to the new conception of wizards and where there magic comes from. After all, Cam said it point blank that "the magic of wizards comes from the moon gods". So the divine link is there, and the gods can shut it off. That's pretty much being set in stone.
The problem then is with renegades. 5th Age magic didn't come around until the 5th Age. Therefore renegades must be wizard renegades before that, not sorcerers. If such is the case, we need to define how renegades can exist independently of the gods, while still drawing their power from them.
Thus, my suggestion is that mages use ritualistic magic to summon godly power. The gods are the source of the power, but do not grant it directly. Thus, if a mage goes renegade he still possesses these rituals to harness this power from the gods, and can steal the knowledge of more rituals. The gods to remove the ability of the mage to cast the magic, must be directly present in order to do so. Otherwise there wouldn't be any renegades around at all.
Clear as mud?
So, the burden is on the PC in the case of clerics so if they lose their spellcasting they still receive XP as if they were spellcasters but with wizards they lost their powers because of the "roleplaying rule" of the campaign. They're not as powerful as their level indicates but still receive the same XP. Since you protect the D&D classes so much, shouldn't you rally against it?
Heh, if it was up to me, we wouldn't have the gods being able to take the magic away at all.
This whole writeup is indeed a way to keep wizards from becoming "arcane magic clerics". The writeup directly above is to try to maintain the flavour of wizards, as people with their own powers and their own ambitions, rather than being agents of the moon gods.
Because of the downsides: gods' heavy handed influence in semi-mundane matters, the question of "blame" when it comes to assigning XP by class level, and the fact that previous sources have established the death penalty for all major offences.
As I said before, defining when and where the magic toggle is used is designed to reduce the god's direct involvement. As for prior source material, it is not established that the death penalty is used for all major offenses. Quite the opposite in fact, in both DLA and TotL. The death penalty is mostly used by black robes who solve the matter themselves.
If you stop using the "rule" you're one step closer to making it go away. Kinda like myself with 3.5 weapon sizes... ;)
I was initally against 3.5 weapon sizes, but I kinda saw their point that short swords are not long daggers, and longswords were not short swords. Of course, I'll fudge the rules a little bit, and allow a halfling pick up a human longsword as a two-handed weapon without any penalty.
But this is a matter of world-flavour, not simple rules mechanics. I can't make it "go away" without going against what else is going on in the world. Determining how magic works, determines the storylines involving mages.
I prefer the one I state above: "magic toggle is only used when characters are in direct presence of the Moon gods after the Conclave has done everything in their power to eradicate the threat"
See above. We are so very close to agreeing.
Only a significantly powerful nation of non-spellcasters (Istar) or a powerful organization of spellcaster (Knights of the Thorn) could hold off any Conclave action. Caramon might have been a high level Fighter but he'd die after cutting down one or two high level wizards.
You were saying that a wizard losing his magic would be dangerous. A greiving relative or friend would be just a dangerous, and in fact more dangerous if they are trained in arms. If a powerless wizard can launch a scheme to threaten the conclave, a fighter, rogue or cleric (the relative) can as well. If a fighter cannot fight the conclave alone, so much less so can a powerless wizard.
Keeping it a novel-event is perfectly fine with me. I still stand by Tracy's view that the novel world and gaming world need not necessarily be the same.
It would be fine with me as well. Not up to me though. ;)
Oh come on, fine on the DLCS and AoM count since they're coming within a fortnight or so but surely material on the Conclave would be needed before the "magic" book. And hey, if someone likes it who knows? ;)
Yeah, I guess. Okay, I'll write it up this week and send it in to the nexus, and post it here and the mailing list.
Looking forward to them. Just don't make all of Sable's underlings assassins trying to get rid of their Overlord so they can sell the then drained swamp at highly inflationed prices.
Oh no, they are definately Sable's fanboys. Basically, they are "mentally dragonspawn" but still human. They are impregnated with her personality, so they are all ardent scientists, schemers, and share Sable's adoration for Sable.
Besides, why deprive Iyesta the opportunity to pull the prank of the century? ;)
oh wait, Margaret said that there were no spoilers in the DLCS. never mind ;)
I liked Iyesta *sniff*.
See why I'm not comfortable writing anything without a copy of the DLCS? ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
The Knights of Solamnia are a legitimate authority within the borders of Solamnia. What you are describing is a rogue organization which gives itself the right to indulge in kidnapping and assassination. I simply cannot agree with that.
I think what I'm trying to say is what makes the Knights of Solamnia a legitimate authority? Vinas had an epiphany... or did he? The WoHS are mandated by the moon gods... or are they? To everyone else it's a matter of accepting or not. Every nation has been established by force (physical or psychological) and whether neighbouring nations accept it or not determines their legitimacy?
We are so, so close to being in complete agreement. We agree that the moon gods have to be present.
Except the final gap between us on this issue is more like a chasm. ;)
So obviously then, the moon gods cannot simply manifest beside the mage whenever they feel like it and strip the magic off. So thus, the mage has to be apprehended in some way. The moon gods can hunt them down themselves through legwork if he is a really serious threat (Raistlin, Dalamar). Most of the time though, for run of the mill renegades, the WoHS makes perfect sense as people to do the legwork of hunting renegades.
What makes a renegade "worthy" of being magik-stripped by the moon gods then? I don't see the gods doing that for every little renegade that the Conclave aprehends.
A wizard does too, acording to the new conception of wizards and where there magic comes from. After all, Cam said it point blank that "the magic of wizards comes from the moon gods". So the divine link is there, and the gods can shut it off. That's pretty much being set in stone.
That's what I mean by taking things too literally. Yes the divine link is there but they aren't divine casters. The moon gods amplify the magic of the world (souls in the Appendix) and focus it on the world where wizards can use it. It's not a direct link between moon gods and Joe Wizard but rather a general effect. So the moon gods couldn't turn it off for just one person. We can circunvent this by only allowing the toggle switch to work if the renegade is in direct presence with the moon gods.
The problem then is with renegades. 5th Age magic didn't come around until the 5th Age. Therefore renegades must be wizard renegades before that, not sorcerers. If such is the case, we need to define how renegades can exist independently of the gods, while still drawing their power from them.
See above. This is corroborated by the fact that DLA and TotL mention that while some WoHS actively believe in the moon gods, some do not. This enphasises that although the divine link is there, they aren't divine spellcasters requiring faith.
Thus, my suggestion is that mages use ritualistic magic to summon godly power. The gods are the source of the power, but do not grant it directly. Thus, if a mage goes renegade he still possesses these rituals to harness this power from the gods, and can steal the knowledge of more rituals. The gods to remove the ability of the mage to cast the magic, must be directly present in order to do so. Otherwise there wouldn't be any renegades around at all.
That's exactly how I view it. So, can you see that for most renegades the Conclave aprehends, they won't bother the moon gods but exact mortal justice instead?
As I said before, defining when and where the magic toggle is used is designed to reduce the god's direct involvement. As for prior source material, it is not established that the death penalty is used for all major offenses. Quite the opposite in fact, in both DLA and TotL. The death penalty is mostly used by black robes who solve the matter themselves.
Both Red Robes and Black Robes kill renegades who ultimately refuse to acknowledge the authority of the Conclave. Two out of three. ;)
I was initally against 3.5 weapon sizes, but I kinda saw their point that short swords are not long daggers, and longswords were not short swords. Of course, I'll fudge the rules a little bit, and allow a halfling pick up a human longsword as a two-handed weapon without any penalty.
Hmm a bit OT but my problem with 3.5 Weapon sizes is the sloppy implementation they did rather than dislike the mechanic on a conceptual level. For instance, Monks have listed the damage for Small, Medium and Large creatures only. Weapons have listed for Tiny, Small, Medium, Large but the Tiny extreme in this list doesn't change price whereas Large do. Small costs the same as Medium but has smaller damage. Armor has for all sizes but only changes price and weight whereas AC bonus remains the same (if the armor is smaller and lighter it's probably thinner thus offering less protection and vice-versa).
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I think what I'm trying to say is what makes the Knights of Solamnia a legitimate authority?
They are politically legitimate. Legitimacy is essentially the assent to be governed. Since the Knights of Solamnia are invested with official powers in regards to military affairs and keeping the peace, they have legitimacy within their own borders.
Now of course, you could have revolt (which I'm planning to introduce in a future storyline) then they could lose legitimacy if the revolution is a success. However, enough about the Knights, we are talking about the conclave. If you're going to respond to this, start a new thread.
The WoHS are mandated by the moon gods... or are they? To everyone else it's a matter of accepting or not. Every nation has been established by force (physical or psychological) and whether neighbouring nations accept it or not determines their legitimacy?
Right. Which is why the conclave cannot simply do as they please. The political organization of the wizard's conclave is going to have to play politics if they are going to gain any legitimacy. That means that they cannot engage in practices that will ensure that nobody will do business with them or considers them a greater threat than the renegade mages they are supposed to be policing!
What makes a renegade "worthy" of being magik-stripped by the moon gods then? I don't see the gods doing that for every little renegade that the Conclave aprehends.
Well, that's the issue. What makes one renegade mage "worthy" of beig magik stripped and another not being worthy? My solution is that the moon gods have to catch them first. WoHS hunting renegades for trial was a way of the moon gods "catching them".
That's what I mean by taking things too literally. Yes the divine link is there but they aren't divine casters. The moon gods amplify the magic of the world (souls in the Appendix) and focus it on the world where wizards can use it. It's not a direct link between moon gods and Joe Wizard but rather a general effect. So the moon gods couldn't turn it off for just one person. We can circunvent this by only allowing the toggle switch to work if the renegade is in direct presence with the moon gods.
So we agree then. For the moon gods to turn off the magic of "Joe Wizard" first they have to catch him. If you don't want to do it through renegade hunting and conclave trials, how do you want the moon gods to "catch" them?
I've never disagreed that mages have their own source of power that is god-influenced or controlled, rather than being theirs to give.
The way I see it is this. The moon gods took the arcane magic of the world, and locked it behind a door. The spells used by the WoHS are the keys needed to open this door and access the magic.
When Takhisis stole the world, the door was shattered and the magic streamed back out, allowing sorcery to be used once again. The wizards are attempting to close that door again, but it is difficult and until then sorcerers will run wild.
That's exactly how I view it. So, can you see that for most renegades the Conclave aprehends, they won't bother the moon gods but exact mortal justice instead?
Well there are two problems with that.
1) when does the conclave bother the moon gods? What makes one renegade mage more worthy of being "magik-stripped" than another?
2) It seems rather anti-climactic to drag him in for a death penalty, when the adventurers could have just killed him out in the field.
Both Red Robes and Black Robes kill renegades who ultimately refuse to acknowledge the authority of the Conclave. Two out of three. ;)
Actually, I read over DLA and it goes like this:
White robes drag renegades back for trial unless such a thing is absolutely impossible. In such cases, lethal force is sanctioned.
Red robes will either kill or capture a renegade depending on which course of action is most expedient.
Black robes either convince them to become a black robe, or else to remain a renegade. If they show interest in becoming a white robe or red robe, they are killed.
Now, obviously the last doesn't quite fit the flavour of the Wizard's conclave anymore. So I'll assume that Black Robes simply kill them, or are more likely to work with renegades or capture them depending on which furthers their own ambitions.
For the red robes, they need a qualifier other than their own lust for power. However when could it possibly be more expedient to simply capture somebody for execution rather than simply executing them right there? If the King likes his renegade wizard brother, and capturing him for magik stripping and returning him could mean the difference between a "thank-you" and a blood feud... well then obviously the brother should be captured. If it means a blood feud anyway because we execute our renegades, why not just kill him now? Then you have the problems of the white robes which we've already discussed. It simply isn't moral to kill someone when an equally viable alternative of rendering him harmless exists.
So, if you die and get brought back to life, make sure the Gods of Magic aren't paying attention to you. Or rather, make sure it isn't them who's bringing you back.
Cheers,
Cam
Now, since we all agree that the ability of the gods of the moon to strip magic in the world wil profoundly influence how magic is controlled and policed... will someone tell me what the straight dope is?
Can the gods of magic strip magic from mages? I need to know now so I can adjudicate it in my games, not in January when the guide to magic comes out.
Originally posted by ferratus
Can the gods of magic strip magic from mages? I need to know now so I can adjudicate it in my games, not in January when the guide to magic comes out.
I thought your players didn't really care one way or the other, Terry.
Seriously, I am not in any real position to make this call for you. I'm just shooting out suggestions and possible explanations. While I'm sure the situation will be cleared up in January to some degree, you may also want to wait until you have a copy of the DLCS and AoM for more information, or simply go with what you think is best for your campaigns.Cheers,
Cam
Tell you all what, my insignificant self in this shared world will start writing up my finished draft on wizards, sorcerers, and renegades tommorow, and finish either Thursday night or Friday afternoon. I pretty much know what I'm going to say.
I'll be going without the magik-stripping btw, simply because I don't want them to be arcane casting clerics, and this is the simplest way to avoid that confusion.
As for DLCS and Age of Mortals... won't come for another 3-4 weeks. I will say I'm not as anxious about the DLCS anymore as I was a week ago. Still looking forward to Age of Mortals though.
The Moons say/mandate/whatever 'Hey. You Magic-Users. Do what though wilt with your powers, but don't go around blasting the world out of alignment, dig? Or else.' So the wizards think 'Holy Hell, we need to keep ourselves strictly under control or the Moons are going to totally flip. Let's set up a system of controlling all magic-users worldwide to make sure we know what they're doing, how they're doing it, and all that good stuff. And anyone that doesn't agree, we force to agree or we drive them out of spellcasting - By life or death.'
It seems to me, personally, that most of the renegade controlling is being done by the mortal magi, not the Moons, who (being Gods), could probably care less. Until someone big and world-changing pops in front of their eyes and they go 'Whoa now. That wasn't supposed to happen...'
Eh, just another way to look at it.
I like to think that the moon gods are fairly indiscriminate when it concerns the power of High Sorcery. This power is put forth into the world, so that those talented with magic can tap into its power. After all, the WoHS are all about discovering magic for yourself. For example, the WoHS prestige class gives you a free magic item. The wizard must discover for himself what powers it possesses.
Ah, but what about renegades? I think this is where free will comes into play. Yes, a renegade can wield arcane magic, although the moons don't affect their magic. With free will in mind, the mage must make the choice for himself whether to follow the Orders of High Sorcery, or to stay a renegade. The gods don't have to get involved, as the WoHS will take care of the situation.
As for the Knights of the Thorn, I'm pretty convinced that Takhisis stole the magic of the moons, and granted it to the Thorn Knights. Stealing magic is one of her better tricks. ;)
So, I guess my answer to this is that the gods can take magic away if they wished, but they generally won't.
I know that doesn't really answer your question, but that's my thought on the matter.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
As for the Knights of the Thorn, I'm pretty convinced that Takhisis stole the magic of the moons, and granted it to the Thorn Knights. Stealing magic is one of her better tricks. ;)
I don't like that explanation simply because it repeats the plot of WoS. Wouldn't it be much easier to say that Takhisis seduced a bunch of mages from all three orders into following her banner? Then you simply draw upon all three moons because they have the knowledge necessary to draw upon the moons. Thus, the renegades who joined the Knights of Takhisis are renegades who joined the Knights of Takhisis.
It is only an unworkable explanation if the Gods of Magic can turn off power to whichever mage they choose, whenever they choose. That is why we need to know now. It will completely affect the ways wizards work no matter what storyline you use involving them.
So, I guess my answer to this is that the gods can take magic away if they wished, but they generally won't.
I know that doesn't really answer your question, but that's my thought on the matter.
No it doesn't, because I need to know when they magik-strip, and how they do it. Otherwise, it seems completely random and contrary. Not really something that fits with the dieties who all have lawful alignments and rule over the rigid hiearchy of the WoHS.
Originally posted by ferratus
I don't like that explanation simply because it repeats the plot of WoS.
That's called continuity. ;)
No it doesn't, because I need to know when they magik-strip, and how they do it.
There's this little bar in Sanction. Ask for "Lusty Luni".
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
That's called continuity. ;)
No, the continuity is just that a bunch of renegades joined up with Takhisis. That's just apocrypha developed by the fan community based on what happened during the War of Souls, in a world where mages can be stripped of magic by the moon gods. If the moon gods couldn't strip magic, Takhisis wouldn't need to steal it.
My explanation is just as canonical... if you don't have the moon gods stripping the magic from renegades. So what's the answer already! Can they strip magic or not?
There's this little bar in Sanction. Ask for "Lusty Luni".
That's completely unhelpful. ;)
When you look upon the shining castle on the hill, or towards a horizon, the view is breathtaking. In your heart, you feel the mystery. In your mind, you imagine what exists there, and it is a glorious place.
Yet if we travel to this castle, or over the horizon, the truth of the matter may be something different. Suddenly, your pristine image of the castle is replaced with maps of the castle sewers.
The point is, some things should remain a mystery. Not everything has to be explained, nor should it. The battle between Fistandantilus and Raistlin, for example, should never be explained, IMHO. It would take away from the imagination of the reader if the winner was ever declared.
If there are any two things in Dragonlance that should remain mysterious, it should be magic and the gods.
One other thing I would like to add to this is that Dragonlance is a world of tales and legends. Sure, some of those tales don't match up, but such is also the case with King Arthur.
Now, with the WoHS, the gods of magic, and renegades...
We know how the WoHS deals with renegades. We know that there are renegades. We know that there are tales about the gods of magic taking away magic, but we do not know if this is a fact or not. After all, it is a tale, a legend.
My advice on how to proceed is to go with what you know, and run with it. If a renegade ever shows up in your campaign, make a judgment call on how they should be handled, and whether the gods of magic will interfere or not.
I sometimes think that DMs don't think for themselves, or make judgment calls often enough these days. Too much emphasis is placed on the "official ruling" on things. Again, I refer everyone to Guardians of Order's Gaming Manifesto. One of the key things in there (paraphrasing) is that there are no official rules, just official opinions.
The reason? All three deities of magic would have to agree to deny the renegade wizard of their power. This seems highly unlikely with their differing alignments. To me, I would think each god of magice would try to coerce the renegade into joining their respective order and most importantly keep the renegade from joining one of the others. If only one of the deities cut a renegade off, that would still leave the other 2 to lend him their power and would thus just weaken the denying deity and lend strength to the others. All the deities need followers and so each deity would rather not refuse magic to a wizard. They would rather simply wait and try to coerce the renegade into joining their order only.
I think that a renegade will only be denied of his magic if he is using it it a blatantly terrible and unbecoming way. It pretty much would have to offend all three gods, and make each of them never ever want the renegade amongst their order. Then and only then *poof* the magic is gone. ;)
I think the conclave has to come to agreements with the legitimate rulers of the land in order to have the right to police magic within their borders. Most rulers would gratefully accept, because it allows for some control on weird powers, and makes mages much easier to identify.
I'd equate the WoHS to a multinational corporation that has purchased permanent possession of their company headquarters (much like having an embassy of your own, except all you have are embassies). The Towers of High Sorcery are completely their property, and they are the legitimate rulers of what happens inside their property (and they still follow the laws of the land pertaining to criminal acts such as thievery and murder when it concerns the people of the land not under their jurisdiction).
Now a member of the WoHS, while a member of the WoHS, is still also a citizen of the land where the Tower of High Sorcery is located, and under the jurisdiction of the government of the land when pertaining to matters not concerning the WoHS.
And, when a matter arises that pertains to both the land and the WoHS, the Conclave and the rulers of the land can come together and decide together what the ruling on the matter should be.
The Conclave themselves are like the wealthy business leaders of multinational corporations. They are treated by the rulers of the lands where their towers are in as people who are good to have on your side and are thus treated with the utmost respect and allowed to give advice, some might even say ruling, on even the most high level decisions.
First, what are the different categories of spellcasters that there are and how do they relate to categorizing renegades:
A1. Those who only know the bare basics of spellcasting and have no intention of developing their skills further.
A2. Those who are getting better under the tutelage of a WoHS member (or self-learners like Gerrand DiThon) and are going to take the test and join the WoHS.
A3. The members of the WoHS who have passed their test.
B1. Those who are getting better on their own, and are not planning to take the test, and don't want anything to do with the WoHS.
B2. Members of the WoHS who have broken against the three rules.
B3. Members (or nonmembers) of the WoHS who are seeking knowledge forbidden by the Conclave and/or the three gods of magic (like anything from the Lost Citadel).
C1. Spellcasters who do not use moon magic.
C2. Spellcasters whose magical abilities are natural (dragons, draconians etc.).
C3. Spellcasters who gain their magic from all three moons.
None of the A1 are a problem to the WoHS. They are not powerful enough to be considered a threat to neither themselves or to others.
The A2 take the test, the incompetent are weeded out, and the survivors join the WoHS.
The A3 are, to all appearances, all on the side of the WoHS (more on this in B3).
Now B1 are the largest section of the troublemakers. They come in all shapes and sizes and every one of them is a potential problem (from the perspective of the WoHS) which is further highlighted by the fact that most of them aren't powerful enough to actually do any real harm to the WoHS, and some of them might actually be quite decent people who just want to be left alone.
The B2 are clear cut prime rib renegades. No question about it, and the easiest group for the WoHS to deal with in that they have directly offended the gods of magic.
The B3 are the most problematic to the WoHS. Most of them already belong to A3, and to identify them one must learn of their actual research first. And if the person in question is already a high ranking WoHS, well, it spells major trouble.
C1 are somewhat of an enigma to the WoHS. They use forms of magic most of the WoHS have no understanding of, they have no relation to the three gods of magic, there is no need to weed out the incompetent ones because they usually have an innate understanding of their own breed of magic, and no WoHS rules apply to them.
C2 are completely clear of any interference by the WoHS. They have innate understanding of their magic, their magic is part of their very being, and there is no way to separate them from their talent. To go after any of the C2 would be comparable to xenocide (that is, when it relates to control over their use of magic).
C3 come in two forms. First the few chosen of the three gods (like Knaaks grey sorceror), who are either completely hidden from the knowledge of the WoHS, or known only by the Conclave through the gods, and are granted access to all three moons by the gods themselves.
Secondly the renegades who steal moon magic (like the Knights of the Thorn), who are mortal enemies of the WoHS.
Now did I mention something of resources at the beginning? Ah yes. The WoHS (and the three gods of magic) have limited resources. This is only natural.
Now take into account every category of spellcasters there are. The WoHS need to know of the A1 to make sure they don't turn into B1s. They need to train the A2 and supervise (to an extent) the A3. They are having constant problems trying to find the B1 and trying to make sure the harmful ones are taken care of. B2s crop up time to time and the WoHS have to see to them. Then they have to somehow find out about the B3s and bring them down. And then there are the B3s (and the occasional B1s) who are so powerful that they cause even the Conclave problems (and some of them ones who are too powerful to take by any means other than cloak and dagger). The C1 make a mess of the nice clear picture of the world the WoHS would like to have and the WoHS have no idea how to react to them. The C2 are a logistical problem when they appear a threat to WoHS members. And finally there are the renegade C3 who are highly organized (because of their very nature, and a god other than the three gods of magic backing them up) and with a primary goal to see the WoHS hurt badly.
In other words: the WoHS (and the three gods of magic) are completely swamped. Their resources are constantly being stretched to their limits and in all directions at once. And then you ask why the renegade issue is such an unclear and muddled matter.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
We know how the WoHS deals with renegades. We know that there are renegades. We know that there are tales about the gods of magic taking away magic, but we do not know if this is a fact or not. After all, it is a tale, a legend.
We don't know how the WoHS deas with renegades. How they deal with renegades all depends on whether or not they can remove magic from wizards. That is another layer of control. If they cannot remove magic, much more responsibility falls on the WoHS, who will be much more ruthless as a consequence.
As for the "do what you think is appropriate", the problem is that it is a shared world. It doesn't just matter for my campaign, because I want to post stuff online, such as adventures. If I don't know that gods can strip away magic, and when, and I write an adventure... then it becomes contradicted later. If it is contradicted later, then I have might have to toss the adventure out, because it no longer "fits" with the overall canon and continuity of Krynn.
For example, if I have a mad renegade mage who serves Morgion, and later the magic sourcebook comes out that serving another god is an offense which the moon gods strip magic from their mages for... then he can't very well be a valid villain can he?
It is a simple yes or no question. Can the gods strip magic from wizards? Why in the heck is everyone being so damn coy about it?
Originally posted by ferratus
We don't know how the WoHS deas with renegades. How they deal with renegades all depends on whether or not they can remove magic from wizards. That is another layer of control. If they cannot remove magic, much more responsibility falls on the WoHS, who will be much more ruthless as a consequence.
How the WoHS deal with renegades is in the DLCS, and I believe even mentioned in both DLA and TotL. This is fairly well documented.
I think your question is more of how the moon gods deal with renegades.
As for the "do what you think is appropriate", the problem is that it is a shared world. It doesn't just matter for my campaign, because I want to post stuff online, such as adventures. If I don't know that gods can strip away magic, and when, and I write an adventure... then it becomes contradicted later. If it is contradicted later, then I have might have to toss the adventure out, because it no longer "fits" with the overall canon and continuity of Krynn.
Why?
No matter what you write, it will be considered unofficial and a fan work. It's already not canon.
Look at Dark Lance. That's about as non-official as it can get. Despite this, I hear about how fans use War of the Dark Lance in their campaigns.
Dragonlance is a world of tales. Not all tales are true (canon), but they're fun nevertheless.
It is a simple yes or no question. Can the gods strip magic from wizards? Why in the heck is everyone being so damn coy about it?
That's a question that I think only the Dragonlance creators themselves can answer, and I doubt they ever will. It's that "shining castle on the hill" thing, my man.
I'd recommend that you e-mail one of the guys at Sov. Press. If you get an answer, great! Please share it with us. If not, don't be surprised.
Good luck!
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Why?
No matter what you write, it will be considered unofficial and a fan work. It's already not canon.
Of course I know that. However, people can still read over the adventure and enjoy it, or even play it at home as part of their own campaigns if it "fits" with the overall vision.
This is all about limiting my ability to share with others. That's why you have a shared world rather than a homebrew one. That's why I'm kinda cheezed that we don't have a longer geographical chapter. When you are selling a shared world, you are in a sense selling a community.
in mine the WoHS are like a mystery cult or esoteric order, they do what they believe is necessary and operate outside the limits of mundane society. in my campaign the WoHS appear ruthless and secretive to outsiders and rumors float around about dabblers dissappearing in the night and the houses of sorcerers being burned, etc...and now, because of those rumors, the characters in the game don't trust their white-robed silvanesti companion and his pc is somewhat tragic. he knows the truth behind those rumors and feels horrible that the WoHS need to participate in such distasteful acts in order to protect magic, and he questions whether or not putting magic before his morals is truly worth it.
i can very well imagine the toll it would take on people like Par-Salian, having to sign death orders presented to him by Ladonna or Justarius....it would age him prematurely and his consience would be constantly troubled.
of course it may turn out that some of this information is nothing more than rumors spread by ignorant folk...but nobody but the dm knows, and i'll decide when i'm good and ready.
Interesting.