At 1st level, athasian wizards gain the special feat Defiler Metamagic [Instant Metamagic] instead of scribe scrool.
Each time the wizard takes this feat, he can once per day use a single metamagic effect of any metamagic feat he knows on a spell without preparing it before hand. The wizard spell works as if prepared with the metamagic feat, except it uses the same spell slot.
The cost of doing so, however, is that in using the feat, a wizard must defile. Every time a wizard defiles he must make a Will Save against DC 10 + spell level + amount of times previously defiled. Failure means the wizard becomes a defiler and cannot preserve anymore.*
You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you gain one additional instant metamagic per day.
As usual, a spell cannot be instant metamagiced beyond the wizard's maximum spell level.
As a result, every time a wizard uses this feat he will be risking becoming a defiler, as sadira risked many times. Your player will decide being a preserver and restrict himself only to the starting feat using it only if desperate or not using it at all; or the player may wich to abuse from it and become a defiler and then take this feat multiple times since he is already a defiler and cannot preserve anymore.
The only means a defiler has of redeeming himself is to seek out a druid and plead for mercy and redemption. The druid, if willing and able to, can cast a atonement spell upon the defiler only if the defiler truly is willing to redeem himself. The defiler loses enough experience points to reduce his wizard level to just have achieved 1st level in the wizard class. The wizard is now a preserver and must accumulate experience points to increase his level as normal. This is truly an exceptional situation, and only a handful of such radical conversions exist in history.
I urge for comments...
To some extent, it also forces the defiler's hand as he must use his 1st-level feat to get any benefit from being a defiler. Otherwise he too is also weaker than the PHB wizard.
Originally posted by Afghan
Hmmm. It means that preservers != PHB wizards as they do not get Scribe Scroll. Therefore, there is a balance issue.
To some extent, it also forces the defiler's hand as he must use his 1st-level feat to get any benefit from being a defiler. Otherwise he too is also weaker than the PHB wizard.
Wrong.
Preserver = PHB wizards but... can cast a instant metamagic once per day (at the risk of losing the preserver status).
Since they get this for free. the loss of scribe scrool is a balance issue to compensate this advantage.
Same for defiler. Defiler = PHB wizard but... can cast a instant metamagic once per day (since you have already lost your preserve status, you may consider taking the special feat Defiler Metamagic multiple times, gaing one additional instant metamagic per day each time).
Originally posted by Kelsen
Maybe you were confused by this line:
Your player will decide being a preserver and restrict himself only to the starting feat using it only if desperate or not using it at all.
The starting feat here, isn't the bonus feat you get at 1st level.
You can keep scribe scrool if you wish.
You can't have any one class in DnD3e (or 3.5) being more powerful than any other class, because there are other players in the game and they are going to feel shafted when the player who's playing a Defiler get's to do more, be more and basically have more say in every situation than anyone else. It's not fair to the other players, pure and simple and as long as that's true, then there's something wrong with the system. It has nothing to do w/ Dark Sun, and everything to do with the Unforgiving Gods of Game Balance. It simply can't be done.
The only way I could see something like that would be if Perservers weren't allowed to specialize in Evocation and Necromancy and Defilers weren't allowed to specialize in Abjuration and Conjuration. That might be balanced, but then it changes the core wizard, which we specifically have to avoid doing.
The system presented in DS3 works. It allows Defilers to be more 'flashy' with out compromising game balance... besides, (and this is just personal opinion) I HATE playing Evokers... fireball mages are glorified artillery, where's the subtlety? (Where's the BBEG? Not any more.> so gauche. Conjurers, now there's a fun class to play...
Don't worry, you have good ideas, it took forever for people to come up with that plan and you got right to it. There's Plenty of things that need working on... see what people are calling for help on and get your feet wet that way. I'd love to have someone other than me working on magic items, there are people who are working on Monsters and NPCs and the smaller settlements... pick one and go for it!
Solution: use it as a house rule.
Some personal rumblings: the real problem with all the game balance issue that WoC simply doesn't trust the players. It is understandable given the public pressure on a RPG making company. They make a dedicated game balance, as they have to make it such way, minimising uncovered spots usable against them by newscasters, overly zealous preachers and many many other.
But: DS is a for advanced players, it was always so. The real feeling can go out only in that playing environment, with veteran players and DMs. Experienced players can handle if the game balance is not 100% as soon as it doesn't drop too low (say less than 80%). If somebody can't accept that his character can have disadvantages over an other then she should go back playing Greyhawk (which is fun nevertheless). And anyway: if a defiler, as a boosted wizard is not acceptable by game balance wise, what about the templars? They can put any character into prison or sentenced to death! And there is no saving throw against it! Even a 10th level defiler with instant metamagic boosts is pale against it! But is there any attempt to remove that? No. Because it is an integral part of Athas that templars are powerful by default. From that point on the 100% game balance on Athas as first priority is hard chase...
Originally posted by Afghan
In any case, role-playing balance and game mechanic balance are very different things. In some respects, the defiler's role-playing disadvantage vs the templar's role-playing advantage can actually work out in the defiler's favour mechanically... the defiler is going to have a far more exciting life than the templar and is probably going to gain XP far faster as a result.
I know that role-playing balance and game mechanic balance are very different things. But hey, real life is also not fair. Nor Dark Sun. That's way it goes.
By the way a templar's life is typically _not_ a boring one with all the background machinations and politics...
Is the thing what I always loved so much about DS, there is no balnce (good vs evil, water vs earth, ......) That's what makes Ds so interesting and sets it apart from the FR, BR, DL and other campaigns.
In my opinion, playing a preserver should be harder than playing a Defiler cause that's against the mainstream of the world. Just like playing a druid or a cleric is harder than playing a templar. Just because you're in an world that tends toward "evil".
Otherwise what would be the fun in playing a cleric or druid or preserver in Athas.
Hell yeah, the defilers need to be advantaged as does the templars, it's up to the players to get the balance back by good roleplaying.
But this is just my humble opinion.
Similarly, for defilers, they must be mechanically balanced against the other classes, particularly the PHB Wizard. This means if they are mechanically more powerful in one respect, this must be counter-balanced by a mechanical disadvantage. The fact they are hated in the setting does not balance that because they could just plane-shift somewhere else or something. Then they'd be more powerful without any penalty.
Even if you don't agree with the need for mechanical balance, it is something that Wizards insist on in the official version. It's a given.
However, I would say that gaining power through defiling is not something that was in the original Dark Sun setting. Defiling was never more powerful, only easier. Defilers tended to be more powerful only because they advanced quicker, not because defiling was itself any more powerful.
This is a point where, in my personal opinion, the official rules do fall down. They don't capture why people defile. Admittedly, defilers can get an advantage over preservers by taking prestige classes but that's not particularly faithful to the setting.
I have worked out a system which I think - a) does capture the feel of the setting better than the official system - and - b) does meet the strict criteria for an official system - but, as the magic rules have already been finalised, it's a bit useless now, although I might use it myself.
And regarding the defiling not powerful, only faster: it is the same thing Yoda said about the dark side of Force. But it seems he didn't read the rulebook... :D
You are right that if defiling only faster it is not a temptation. But there is one other problem with it: the handling of the preserver-defiler transition if a wizard choses the dark path.
And getting back to one of my earlier comments: somebody (I think Jon or Nyt) said that most player would play a preserver rather than defiler. I think it's true. So -at least for house rules- it's a nice idea to make defiler an NPC class, with powerful abilities. And preserver = PHB wizard. This can work fine for any group where the players are not interested for defiling, and an easy solution for these groups.
My post was only based on my experience during gaming sessions.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Afghan, any link to your version? I would like to have a look on it.
And regarding the defiling not powerful, only faster: it is the same thing Yoda said about the dark side of Force. But it seems he didn't read the rulebook... :D
You are right that if defiling only faster it is not a temptation. But there is one other problem with it: the handling of the preserver-defiler transition if a wizard choses the dark path.
No write up as yet but I posted an early version of my idea on this board perhaps a couple of weeks back. The only changes I've really made since are the way it handles the 'preserver/defiler transition'.
I'm currently in the process of debugging a relativistic 3D engine so the write-up probably won't happen for a couple of days. However, I'm planning an assault on some outstanding Dark Sun material for my website this weekend. If I get bored of bards I'll try and throw together some design notes, if you're interested.
Wizards in Dark Sun
The fact was, that although you were a Preserver, Defiling was WAY easier, & gave so much more power, but was essentially a jet-fueled action of entropy, destroying the earth. So while playing a Preserver, you always had this "draw" to want to Defile when you were in tough situations, there was always that temptation.
Originally posted by Orias
The fact was, that although you were a Preserver, Defiling was WAY easier, & gave so much more power, but was essentially a jet-fueled action of entropy, destroying the earth. So while playing a Preserver, you always had this "draw" to want to Defile when you were in tough situations, there was always that temptation.
That's not quite true, to be fair. The idea that preservers could gain extra power by defiling was a very late innovation in the setting. It made some sense, I suppose, but it was really thrown in to try to represent some of the things that happened in the Prism Pentad.
The point is, the preservers who turned to defiling to gain the extra pwer were few and far between. Sadira was hardly a standard preserver and the only other example that springs to mind was Haakar.
I remember when balance was put aside to make the rules match the story when gods didn't need stats and sorcerer kings could crush any mortals who got in there way. Those where the days.
I am not saying I don't love 3ed eddition and 3.5 but sometimes I very much miss the days when a wizard was balance because he started out terribly weak and eventualy became very powerful. when balance and control where looser and when a DM didn't have to worry if he was giveing out too much treasure.
I will toast to 2ed eddition, for all it's flaws it told one hell of a story.
P.S. Sorry for the spelling.
It doesn't really matter if the uber-characters in the books turned to Defiling or Preserving, it's a matter of how the game is to be ran. It was always describe as being tempting to Defile rather than Preserve, & just because a few hearty heroes didn't succumb to that, doesn't mean it didn't exist.
I agree about "balance".