Great topic! Personally, though I grew up with the 4th Age, I'm sick of it. It's been done and done and done to death. The 5th Age has been my favorite Age since SAGA ushered it in, and the Post-War of Souls era is by far my favorite time to read and game in Dragonlance.
The setup is incredible: Here you have 3 out of 5 Dragon Overlords dead, and the biggest of the lot at that. The Knights of Neraka and Solamnia's patron deities are either dead or made mortal, and can no longer assume responsibility nor lend assistance to their knightohoods. The elves are homeless refugees, and their leadership unsure. The famous Heroes of the Lance are dead, each and every one, paving the way for new heroes of untold origins to come forth and grab the spotlight like a monkey let loose in a fan store!
Ahhh, just think of it! The gods are back like camp counselors walking in on a co-ed jello wrestling match at 4 AM the night before mid-terms! 4 types of magic struggle for control of Krynn's magic users like a used car salesman in a one-horse town. And the organizations of Krynn, the various knghthoods etc, are jumbled like a jigsaw puzzle in a 5-year old's toy chest. I mean, considering all of that, there just doesn't seem to be any better time to play in Dragonlance!
Peace!
For me, Rooks speaks the truth. Dragonlance was stifled in the fourth age. The fifth age was magnificent, and opened tons of possibilities in the world. The world post wos is even better.
But hey, if you want fourth age, you already have it. what are you doing here? You aren't going to find anything you want to read. Dragonlance fourth age was done just fine in 1st/2nd ed, and had lots and lots of modules and novels. find a storyline or a campaign, and go with it. The tales of the lance box set even came with a great map with lots of adventure locales.
For the rest of us, there is the new complete baseline for the essence of everything dragonlance past and future in the DLCS, and the elegant and streamlined 3.5 rules set.
But hey, why should you upgrade to a 2.8 gHz computer running windows xp when your tandy does everything you want it to?
To sum it up, you say Give me Fourth Age. I say Take It.
Dragonlance was at its best with the 4th age/post WotL period. It was left open for campaigns to go where the DM and his/her players wanted.
I never understood why Weiss & Hickman brought about the Chaos War and the 5th age. It really did feel to me liked they jumped the boat on that one and spoilt the setting.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having a metaplot that moves a campaign setting on but I think with the events of the 5th age it was too much and too big a departure.
Still, that aside, I do love Dragonlance as much as the next man, just not that part of it.
Originally posted by Paguz666
Hi there. Dragonlance Campaign Setting is coming next month and after it Key of Destiny Campaign which "will change the face of Ansalon with events that will affect both future games and novels!" (at least they wrote so). So I'm just wondering about the future of Dragonlance. Anyone want's to share some ideas?
They are changing the face of Ansalon again? So is this going to be the 6th Age?
Thank goodness that in my little world Dragonlance never advanced beyond the Tales II series....
Originally posted by JQPublic
They are changing the face of Ansalon again? So is this going to be the 6th Age?
Thank goodness that in my little world Dragonlance never advanced beyond the Tales II series....
It's still the 5th...
Originally posted by talinthas
welcome to 20 years ago krystal.
For me, Rooks speaks the truth. Dragonlance was stifled in the fourth age. The fifth age was magnificent, and opened tons of possibilities in the world. The world post wos is even better.
But hey, if you want fourth age, you already have it. what are you doing here? You aren't going to find anything you want to read. Dragonlance fourth age was done just fine in 1st/2nd ed, and had lots and lots of modules and novels. find a storyline or a campaign, and go with it. The tales of the lance box set even came with a great map with lots of adventure locales.
For the rest of us, there is the new complete baseline for the essence of everything dragonlance past and future in the DLCS, and the elegant and streamlined 3.5 rules set.
But hey, why should you upgrade to a 2.8 gHz computer running windows xp when your tandy does everything you want it to?
To sum it up, you say Give me Fourth Age. I say Take It.
First, I'll say AMEN! I completely agree -- I just feel the 4th Age had it's share of the spotlight, and now is the perfect time to shoulder that aside and get on with the good stuff: the 5th Age!
BUT... that is not to say that I don't like the 4th Age. I'll certainly be buying the War of the Lance supplement, and please don't misinterpret my post as meaning otherwise. I love the 4th Age - there isn't anything I detest about it, and I grew up reading about and playing in the 4th Age - to me, it was Dragonlance. I can still remember feeling the same shock as many of you did after completing Dragons of Summer Flame.
However, in the end, I had to face the fact that it wasn't my fantasy world. It's their's, and if they wanna do somethng to it (regardless of the backstory of having been pressure by TSR, etc), then they can do whatever they want with it. After all, it's a series of fantasy novels, not something that should be unequivocably changing my life. When I see such rash lashing out against the 5th Age, I have to stop and think that someone is taking a fantasy series just a little too seriously. As in:
Chill out dude. It's only a story.
And just accept the changes and go with the flow.
Again, to me, the 4th Age is awesome. But the 5th Age is where Dragonalnce really shines - the opportunity for adventure is limitless and mostly undocumented. The 4th Age feels scripted and destined - there never felt like a ton of room to craft my own hereoes and legends. Of course, I always feel that way in other people's settings, which is why I don't play established campaign settings, but the point still stands.
And for the record, I was being 100% serious in my posts. :D I'm a bit of an eccentric, especially verbally, and if my prose comes off as slightly skewed and cracked - well, that's how I write LOL!
Now, to answer a slightly different response, the 5th age, Post-War of Souls, is not really a mingling of 4th Age and 5th Age. Elements of each have been altered to the point where they don't feel like carbon copies of their respective selves. Instead, Paguz666, you get a meshing of the two that feels completely new; a unique mingling of older elements and newer ones that makes the Post-War of Souls 5th Age feel incredibly fresh! Think of it - 2 of the Pantheon's leaders are gone from the spotlight, 3 Dragon Overlords are dead and out of action, the knighthoods are in disarray, the minotaurs are making their bid for power, the elves are homeless....
Need I go on?
As a parting note - no one declaring their love for the 5th Age has posted anything resembling a flame towrd the 4th Age. So let's all chill and realize this is not about the 4th Age vs. the 5th Age. It's about the setting that for whatever reason, we all know and love.
Peace!
Originally posted by JQPublic
Thank goodness that in my little world Dragonlance never advanced beyond the Tales II series....
Wow...that sounds boring and stale...
Well...maybe not boring (cause the 4th Age era still kicks ass)...but stale anyway.
Originally posted by Rooks
As a parting note - no one declaring their love for the 5th Age has posted anything resembling a flame towrd the 4th Age. So let's all chill and realize this is not about the 4th Age vs. the 5th Age. It's about the setting that for whatever reason, we all know and love.
That's how it always is. I don't know that I've ever seen an ill note about the 4th Age from 5th Age advocates, ie...I've never seen a "4th Age Bash" thread on any medium. (granted, I've only been "online" with Dragonlance for 5 years or so).
And...well...I don't know where I was going with this. It always feels like the 5th Age is the "red headed step child" (and the War of Souls trilogy did nothing to stifle this feeling). After so many years of being berated for liking the 5th Age and such...I think some of us get a little defensive and jump to conclusions sometimes we shouldn't. It's gotten me in trouble in the past. Which is why for the most part...I try and stay away from debates like this these days.
Summer Flame was jolting. It jumped 30 years, killed a bunch of heroes, got rid of the gods, and basically ended the world. TSR was failing at this point, and the trilogy that W&H wanted to do, that would have told the story leading into their fifth age, was condenced into one.
Revalation. The War of Souls was planned from the beginning.
Then WotC bought TSR, and a new team was brought in to work with DL. They created SAGA (not a great idea) and a whole bunch of products which actually added depth and dimension to Ansalon (Great Idea).
But no one read those, because they were all burned by summer flame. They all blamed losing dragonlance on the innocent writers of the fifth age, or on weis and hickman, when it was really out of everyone's control.
War of souls was meant to bring fourth and fifth agers back together. I don't think it has done that, but i do believe that the world it has set up is the best era for actual campaign play in dragonlance history. For once we aren't railroaded by NPCs who do everything in novels so we can follow their footsteps. There is a lot going on in the world, and we dont have to deal with the same regurgitated tak conquers the world plot. But hey, you want that, don't you?
Don't get me wrong, though. I had a lot of great memories of the fourth age, but i don't allow all of my memories to be blinded to the good only. Remember the DLS series? where they go plane hopping and run into astral dragons? Or the wonderful fourth age preludes and meetings novels? There were a ton of things that sucked about the fourth age, namely that it never actually advanced past the war of the lance. And when it finally did, people complained.
Oh well. before i get into circular reasoning, i'll stop and say that you can play whatever era you want, since dragonlance is still great in all respects. But please, if you want 2nd ed and 4th age, don't complain to those of us that enjoy 5th age and 3e.
And other things.
You might be surprised to learn that I agree with you completely.
Post WotL had such potential (in my eyes at least), but it never seemed to get the support it needed. Instead the powers that be chose tell us again and again (and again) how wonderful and interesting the companions were (and their kids...and their enemies...and their neighbors...it didn't seem to matter so long as they were somehow linked to the companions).
And the setting got stale.
Did dragonlance need to be revived with some fresh blood? Of course. Did it have to be done with such drastic changes that to many it destroyed dragonlance as a viable setting? I don't think so.
Now, I know a lot of people love the post-Chaos War Krynn, and I don't mean to insult them over it. Its just, for me (and possibly a few others), the Fifth Age just isn't dragonlance.
By the way...I know this subject has been probably been done to death and I apologize...but isn't beating what dead horses were made for? (besides glue, that is) :D
For me, dragonlance is more than an age, its an ideal. The search for hope and the perseverence of faith even when there is no reason for either to exist. Fifth age was a test to see if you could keep the faith. War of Souls is the reward =)
Anyway...
JQPublic, I didn't mean anything by that, personally. Just that...if it never went past Tales II, then you only have...about a third of Dragonlance, I think (or did you mean never went past Tales II in the timeline?)
Well, I too am an avid collector. All the books and such (however I'm missing quite a few of the earlier gaming modules...) To me...the vastness of everything created is what gives DL is appeal....or at least is part of it. But to each his own, ya know? Many people would have probably been happy with a 6 book story...me...I'm super excited it turned into the huge saga that it did.
As for the future of DL (to keep Paguz happy :D) I'm not quite sure what you want to know. Do you mean the future of DL "in world?" If that's the case...I have no idea...and I love that. If you mean, what will happen in the future of the Dragonlance line...I think so long as Hasbro keeps making money...there will be Dragonlance. It's still as popular as ever, and the resurgance of Dungeons and Dragons...and DL into D&D is only going to help the situation. And this time...I think they're going to do it right. I mean...doing 12 modules based on a story that later became a trilogy is a great idea, and an incredible "gimick"...but in the long run could possibly kill the gaming aspect (which it kinda did...evident by dwindling sales and products prior in the early to mid 90's). But I wouldn't trade those for anything! So...so long as DL survives...who care, right?
I think SP is going to do great things with DL. I mean, you only have to look at Sovereign Stone to have proof of that (shameless plug for Tobin's second favorite fantasy world :D)
I am forcing myself to try and read these books again. I just gave up on them the first time. I got tired of having so many wars and so many freakin plot twists. Basically I was lost at the beginning when I found out Sturm's son was evil. So I have went back to Summer Flame and am rereading that. Then onto the War of Souls.
I don't believe the 4th age was stagnate. How could I? It is the only campaign world I have played in that really had a timeline. A time travel spell wouldn't have meant anything in my older campaigns. In 4th age I had the possibility to travel back to the age of Kith Kanan and Sithal, I could play a whole campaign back then. If you haven't read them .. pick up the Elven Nations sometime .. they are great.(Not saying I couldn't do it in 5th age. And I will ... in order to travel back to the 4th age. :D )
But again, let me make the point that I'm not dissing 5th age, just saying that it's not for me.
Originally posted by themeecer
I don't like the 5th age and I don't like people that do. :D LOL
I am forcing myself to try and read these books again. I just gave up on them the first time. I got tired of having so many wars and so many freakin plot twists. Basically I was lost at the beginning when I found out Sturm's son was evil. So I have went back to Summer Flame and am rereading that. Then onto the War of Souls.
I don't believe the 4th age was stagnate. How could I? It is the only campaign world I have played in that really had a timeline. A time travel spell wouldn't have meant anything in my older campaigns. In 4th age I had the possibility to travel back to the age of Kith Kanan and Sithal, I could play a whole campaign back then. If you haven't read them .. pick up the Elven Nations sometime .. they are great.(Not saying I couldn't do it in 5th age. And I will ... in order to travel back to the 4th age. :D )
*readies the cyber ninjas and blowtorches...*
Geez. Great post. I actually had to pick up my eyeballs after reading it and place them in a glass of salt water to purify the demonic scrawl that had laser-beamed itself onto my retinas.
Ahem.
To move back on topic - the future of Dragonlance can only get better. With this kind of talent working on Dragonlance gaming, I'm 100% certain the roleplaying aspect can't go wrong. Novel-wise, War of Souls was perhaps the most incredible Dragonlance series I've ever read, and Knaak's recent work has been great to boot. With the setting (set up as being as rife for adventure as a drunken hoolah dancer on Las Vegas' strip) set up the way it is, the future of Dragonlance is the brightest it's ever been.
I'm very glad the spotlight has been thrown off the heroes of the Lance. I'm ready to hear about players making their own heroes and legends now.
Peace!
I don't think that the Minotaurs will completely succeed in their conquest, though to be perfectly honest there probably isn't any single force that is any shape to stand against them alone. Not unless the Elves can get some help from the KoS.
Saying that, there is one group that might have the reasorces to stand against the minotaurs, The Legion of Steel. They could have a key role in whats to come.
But since not even the Gods know whats going to happen after the war of souls, this is all just speculation.
The Seekers will rise.
The elves will claim a new home in the desolation, and be corrupted by a tortured land.
Gellidus will be revealed not as a savage beast, that simply growls, eats things, and rolls in the snow, but as a dragon with ambitions so vast and long range that petty politics and conversing with naked apes is beneath him.
Flotsam will be reborn with a glut of refugees, collecting the scum of the blood sea. Gangs will go to war as vice and cruelty reign supreme in the city of slums.
Revolution will spark as the Sunrise party tries to overthrow the shaky rule of the Solamnic Knights.
Mina will purge the knighthood of the disloyal and dishonourable, ensuring that the legacy of Takhisis remains.
I'd write more, but I don't want to give away all of the adventures I'm running. ;)
A little edit here:
I will say that the past was bad. The original modules were good, and pretty much every gaming product afterwards was substandard in comparison to other products on the market at the same time. Heck, even FR shone brighter than dragonlance in terms of quality.
Compare DLA to FRA.
Compare Tales of the Lance to the Forgotten Realms Boxed Set.
Compare Dragonlance modules to FR modules.
However, I will say the future looks pretty bright. As long as I get a decent geography section, some good maps, and an enthusiatic fan base that doesn't wait for stuff to be fed to them, I'll have a campaign world. Everything I don't like I can always put further and further behind me in successive campaigns.
Originally posted by ferratus
As long as I get a decent geography section, some good maps, and an enthusiatic fan base that doesn't wait for stuff to be fed to them, I'll have a campaign world.
Well...I think the Nexus proved the DL fans are not like the second part of that statement (contrary to apparent popular belief).
As for the first part...I seem to remember a year ago or so Tracy saying something about wanting to do a new DL Atlas (because the old Atlas can't be reprinted due to lost plates or something like that...maybe they should check eBay. heh heh) Anyway...so I wonder if a DL Atlas is in the possible future from SP. I don't recall seeing any mentions of it in any of the chats or interviews...but that doens't mean that either a) I missed it, or b) it's in the works but no one has mentioned it yet.
Crap! I should have asked someone to ask Margaret, Jamie, or Chris at GenCon about a possible Atlas in the future.
Personally, I'm willing to go forward, back, and sideways throughout DL. The only age I really don't care for is the Third Age, for a variety of reasons.
As for the future, Margaret's prologue to Night of Blood provided me the seed to link the post-WoS era to my own vision of the Fifth Age, so that's all good. I'm curious about the Knights of Neraka, myself. I'd like to see a charismatic leader (a la Mirielle Abrena in the wake of the Chaos War) step forward and say "Her Dark Majesty has passed from the world, slain by elven treachery, but the ideals she and Ariakan laid down remain valid--an Ansalon united in peace and order by those worthy to claim rulership."
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by talinthas
Then WotC bought TSR, and a new team was brought in to work with DL. They created SAGA (not a great idea) and a whole bunch of products which actually added depth and dimension to Ansalon (Great Idea).
Are you sure? Because I recalled that the SAGA came about BEFORE TSR was acquired by Wizards, about the same time TSR wanted to enter the CCG market with Spellfire.
The SAGA System resembles a CCG about as much as D&D resembles Yahtzee. :-)
Matthew L. Martin, who thinks that SAGA was a gamble that didn't pay off financially.
Ahem.
For one, if WoTC is intelligent, there won't BE a 6th age. I don't recall which book I saw, but it said plainly that there were only to be 5 ages for Krynn. To go against that, something that is well established.... would be asking for trouble, in my eyes. If there ever is a 6th age, well... I won't go into detail with how disappointed I will be.
Anyways. I didn't mind 5th age too badly, what with Jean Rabe's first books and a few of the others... it seemed ok. I remember reading that there were to be 5 ages, and that the last would be the longest and loneliest. did the heroe's need to move out of the light? Yup. Did their kids? Eh. They're their kids, for crying out loud, of course people are going to take notice of them if they find out their linage. It's like the kids of movie stars and such... geez. They don't just drop off the face of the planet, so why should the children of the heroes? What I didn't like was how the last trilogy by weis and hickman explained how the 5th age came about. I mean, comeon... I find it hard to believe that soemone could pull a stunt like that unnoticed!
For anyone who hasn't read the latest trilogy, I recommend you do not go any farther. It will ruin the books. That said, here goes:
Ok. Now that I got that taken care of.
They took the two MOST powerful dieties of opposing sides down. That's not balanced. Ok, some are going to say "Well yeah it is, there's neutrality, which are neutral, and then 6 each of good and evil" And that's not wrong. But now the most powerful god is a neutral one. Who can go either way. So the balance tips back and forth.... still. If your'e going to take away good and evil's most powerful, then you should take away neutrality's most powerful too. There was a REASON why there were SEVEN in each group. Now they've gone and screwed with it.
As far as future goes:
Honestly, I see more chaos for Krynn. I see the remaining six gods of evil vying for power and control even worse, now that Takhisis isn't there to keep them under her boots, so to speak. I see mishakal becoming more reserved and possibly pulling away from the world some, now that her lover has been reduced in state and will eventually travel away from her with the spirits, leaving her alone. Even the lifetime of an elf is short for a god, and paladine is now an OLD elf, not a young one. (at least that I remember) I see the elves being shoved out of every area by humans, until they end up in some rotten little stinkhole compared to their once lofty home.
Banshee
And as for the War of Souls, I can't sympathize with you Krystal. I thought it was an incredible series that made me love the 5th Age even more. It explained everything clearly, and tied up loose ends. I would like to think fans of the series can approach the series with an open sense of not havig expectations. After all, its the authors' world, and they can do whatever they like about it. Its their art, and it's not my selfish place as a fan to dictate what they should have done.
This ties in with the topic; the future of Dragonlance is like a ripe melon. Crack it open, and inside is a bouty of sweetness that you can dig and dig and dig through until you're full and bloated, frankly because you don't already know what's in the melon. You never know what's in a melon before you buy it, and the future of Dragonlance is much the same. It's ripe, untamed, and dangerously attractive, like a pregnant woman in a lingerie catalog. Possibly capable of causing cerebral hemorrhages while you plot and cackle maniacally as you plot your next gaming adventure.
Or raid on a produce stand.
Either way, things are bound to be good.
Peace!
;)
Originally posted by Rooks
I would like to think fans of the series can approach the series with an open sense of not havig expectations. After all, its the authors' world, and they can do whatever they like about it. Its their art, and it's not my selfish place as a fan to dictate what they should have done.
*shrugs* I'll keep telling people what they should have done. When something is obviously bad, I don't beleive in covering it up with rose coloured glasses and ignoring glaring problems is the answer.
However, one should have the guts to put up an alternative to show just how exactly it could have been better. He should explain just why exactly it could be better rather than just resorting to abuse. He should also be prepared to write up a replacement for whatever he doesn't like rather than just saying "that's not good enough."
I think I've got the first two covered, but I really have to get working on the last one. I've got 36 unfinished projects waiting for a check against the DLCS and "Age of Mortals" companion.
Originally posted by ferratus
*shrugs* I'll keep telling people what they should have done.
And you'll just go on being the bright sunshine on the cloudy day, Terry. ;)
Sorry...heh heh, I don't know where that came from. It's Friday, it's early...and I have a 4 hour meeting in about 20 minutes that gonna last me through lunch...so I'm feeling a bit loony. :D
Oh...and Matt...uh...nice analogy? LOL! The melon one was odd, but I was with ya on that...but that last one...whoa dude. Nice visual. heh heh I think I'm pickin' up what you're throwin' down, though.
Oh...and shoot me an e-mail at my work address, could ya? (or I'll just do it later)
Originally posted by ferratus
*shrugs* I'll keep telling people what they should have done. When something is obviously bad, I don't beleive in covering it up with rose coloured glasses and ignoring glaring problems is the answer.
Correction:
What you see as a problem is not necessarily a problem. And frankly, I don't think anyone wants to hear so much complaining. No one's asking you to sing your praises from on high, but there is a fine line between expressing opinions and just plain *****ing. The latter, by the way, get's tired and old real fast, real soon.
Problems in Dragonlance are precipice of emotion. You'll get opposing views more rabid and protective than a foaming pitbull at a cat show. It's avoiding the pitbull that is the real goal - getting away fom the negativity that plagues the division between Age fans. The equation doesn't even add up - why bother harping? It's the author's world; it's their baby, and they can do what they like. Where some see faults or problems, others see greatness and ingenuity.
Remember that melon? Yeah. Roll it down a hill some and see if it doesn't crack when it hits a rock at the bottom. The same thing holds like rubber cement to the precepts that engage Dragonlance like 2 Star Trek fans doing ritual combat over a signed picture of Capt. Picard. No one needs to have that momentum shoved at them, and the setting doesn't seem to need it either. You'll just get people fired up and start flame wars - not everyone will take it on a whimsy like myself and discuss the finer points of Squirrel Fishing instead.
See my point? Tangled, but a point nonetheless.
Peace! :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
And you'll just go on being the bright sunshine on the cloudy day, Terry. ;)
Sorry...heh heh, I don't know where that came from. It's Friday, it's early...and I have a 4 hour meeting in about 20 minutes that gonna last me through lunch...so I'm feeling a bit loony. :D
Oh...and Matt...uh...nice analogy? LOL! The melon one was odd, but I was with ya on that...but that last one...whoa dude. Nice visual. heh heh I think I'm pickin' up what you're throwin' down, though.
Oh...and shoot me an e-mail at my work address, could ya? (or I'll just do it later)
Brim, I don't have your work addy. Shoot me one on my hotmail, or on the pangea list.
Peace.:D
Originally posted by Eldritch
Seeing more of the Legion of Steel wouldn't be to bad. They've been pretty much ignored in the novels most of the time.
Yes! More of the Legion! I love those guys, and they've gotten a novel SHAFT. More of the Legion would be great - they're under-developed, but they have so much potential!
Peace!
Originally posted by Rooks
Correction:
What you see as a problem is not necessarily a problem. And frankly, I don't think anyone wants to hear so much complaining. No one's asking you to sing your praises from on high, but there is a fine line between expressing opinions and just plain *****ing. The latter, by the way, get's tired and old real fast, real soon.
Right, hence my 3 qualifiers for criticism. I always make sure I point out that there is an objective reason for me to harp on certain things. So when I complain about elfsight being a redundant ability that will only be used once out every hundred adventures... that's because it's true. When I complain about the variant rule of "curse of the magi" being extremely unbalancing (given that 1st level wizards will fail their fort saves when casting a 0-level spell 50% of the time) that's because that's true too. By the way, you know what happens when a character is fatigued? -2 str, -2 dex, and you cannot charge or run. That's right, you cannot run away!. What a turkey shoot. As I said, thank God it's a variant rule.
Problems in Dragonlance are precipice of emotion.
No, sometimes it is a matter of bad rules or setting design, plain and simple.
It's avoiding the pitbull that is the real goal - getting away fom the negativity that plagues the division between Age fans. The equation doesn't even add up - why bother harping? It's the author's world; it's their baby, and they can do what they like. Where some see faults or problems, others see greatness and ingenuity.
True, there are different strokes for different folks. I hate numerous ways in which the campaign is going, but I'm willing to go along with these plot elements if it makes sense in the wider whole (my contentions about magic), doesn't duplicate plot elements (my contentions about the minotaur conquest), or reduce the PC's into helpless and insignificant spectators (my contentions about the dragon overlords). If these three elements are used properly however, they'll become tolerable.
Originally posted by Krystal
So the balance tips back and forth....
The balance always tipped back and forth.
Originally posted by Krystal
I see the elves being shoved out of every area by humans, until they end up in some rotten little stinkhole compared to their once lofty home.
Unfounded pessimism like this is what ruins the 5th Age for so many people.
If the story had stopped partway through Chronicles, the fans' reaction ould be the same: People would be saying, "There's no hope, the Dragon Highlords are going to destroy the lands and enslave the humans and kill the elves, boo hoo boo hoo..." But that didn't happen. The powers of good triumphed and a nice setting for gaming was made. The only difference here (in the 5th Age) is that the trilogy ended with some problems remaining, so that it's up to the gamers to bring about the triumph of good this time.
To me, that's an exciting setting to game in.
Originally posted by The Soulforged
Unfounded pessimism like this is what ruins the 5th Age for so many people.
If the story had stopped partway through Chronicles, the fans' reaction ould be the same: People would be saying, "There's no hope, the Dragon Highlords are going to destroy the lands and enslave the humans and kill the elves, boo hoo boo hoo..." But that didn't happen. The powers of good triumphed and a nice setting for gaming was made. The only difference here (in the 5th Age) is that the trilogy ended with some problems remaining, so that it's up to the gamers to bring about the triumph of good this time.
To me, that's an exciting setting to game in.
Ah! Beautifully and eloquently put! You, good sir, are a marksman with words. You've shot straight to the matter of the discussion and hit home. Marvelous!
I feel (as if my blathering isn't an indication) exactly the same. 5th Age or 4th Age - what's the difference? 2 of the Gods are missing? So what? Since when did the Gods or magic make a setting?
In the 4th Age there was insurmountable Dragon Highlords. It took the unparalleled heroism of a group of heroes to over come them.
In the 5th Age there are Dragon Overlords. But this time (at least for the remaining 2 Overlords) there are new heroes to take them down: Specifically, the players of the Dragonlance RPG.
Hazzah. And all that jazz...
Peace!
I own the 5A material, and I've read through it. The thing that struck me is how much narration gets done by the DM. In the Heroes of Sorcery, Heroes of Hope and Wings of Fury modules, you are constantly watching events unfold around you, but unable to take a decisive role in events. Why? The dragon overlords were on the move, but you were unable to do anything about it. That's why they never bothered to give you the stats for those huge dragons.
There was only one storyline that overshadowed everything else, and you realized, while playing it, that anything important wasn't going to be resolved by you, but simply wrapped up by the authors in a later book. Instead, Saga went bust, and it was given to Weis and Hickman to resolve in WoS.
With the Key of Destiny and further modules, we'll finally be able to do epic storylines to influence the campaign setting, rather than being spectators for super-powered NPC's.
Originally posted by The Soulforged
Unfounded pessimism like this is what ruins the 5th Age for so many people.
Heh, I wouldn't call it pessimism. I like the fact that the elves are in exile. Qualinesti and Silvanesti were such boring archetypal elven kingdoms. Now I get to set a bunch of them up in a corner of Flotsam, ruled over by a terrifying gang known as the Sissinrath (poison-thorns). Check this out also:
Just a few short decades ago, I was a golden haired girl dancing in a royal ball in the Tower of the Sun. I laughed under the bowers of aspen trees, and drank sweet wine rather than thirsting for water.
That was before our exile. That was before many of us turned to the Desolation, empty and unclaimed due to the ravages of the monstrous red dragon. The elves have always been in tune with the land, with the harmony of life. Unlike humans who conquer the land, we commune with the land, and it claims us for its own. Thus my fair skin turned a dusky shade, and my golden hair became blacker than a raven's feathers. I became hard in a hard land, turning from a dancer to a runner. Where minuets once left me breathless, miles and miles of empty waste barely leaves me winded.
I commune with the land, and it tells me how it has suffered. We dream of fire, pain, death... so much death.
I don't think it has much to do with pessimism as it does with exploring new adventure seeds. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
There was one major difference between the dragon overlords and the Dragon Highlords.
I own the 5A material, and I've read through it. The thing that struck me is how much narration gets done by the DM. In the Heroes of Sorcery, Heroes of Hope and Wings of Fury modules, you are constantly watching events unfold around you, but unable to take a decisive role in events. Why? The dragon overlords were on the move, but you were unable to do anything about it. That's why they never bothered to give you the stats for those huge dragons.
There was only one storyline that overshadowed everything else, and you realized, while playing it, that anything important wasn't going to be resolved by you, but simply wrapped up by the authors in a later book. Instead, Saga went bust, and it was given to Weis and Hickman to resolve in WoS.
With the Key of Destiny and further modules, we'll finally be able to do epic storylines to influence the campaign setting, rather than being spectators for super-powered NPC's.
Hmmm...
*taps finger against lips...*
Yes and no. Wait, let me clarify - I sound as ambiguous as a drunk physics major attempting to describe the logical layout of a Rubik's Cube to a High School chemistry class.
What I mean is, your view of the 5th Age SAGA modules is not far off. Now don't get me wrong, I loved (and still cherish with an unabating fondness) the SAGA system. But I never used the modules. I credit it to the fact that I've never used any modules ever, but I still get your point. They were very out of the player's control, and truly, they did give the feeling that nothing you did could really alter the way things were gonna be.
[i]Except[i/] that the modules always include tips for Narrators to take the series into their own hand and change things. But that's par for the course on any module.
However, I see one miscalculation in your judgement: SAGA does not equal the 5th Age. Don't attempt to seamlessly blend the two. for a time, they were one and the same. But that simply isn't the case anymore, and to credit the 5th Age as the result, manifestation, or offspring of SAGA is a rash decision.
Peace!
The Minotaurs will invade Ansalon. Considering this an outrage, once the KoS learn of this and the rest of the Solamnics, KoS's ranks will swell, similarly to America post-Pearl Harbor. However help will still be needed, the Elves will band together, but they will demand land to call their home. The humans will be slightly offended, but will promise the Elves their Homelands of Qualinesti and Silvanesti out of desparation. The gnomes will design siege engines for defense against the invasion, and the dwarves will do what they always do, seal themselves in Thorbardin.
Will the Minotaurs take total control of Ansalon? I can't say, but I sincerely doubt it. They will however, take at least a small portion of the continent.
Also, a side note: While I perfer the 4th age, I feel that gaming in the 5th age is better, mainly because it is then that the PC's will form the future of DL in games. With 4th Age games, while still fun, there is no way to have a large impact on the gaming world without tweeking the timeline to include the PC's as famous heroes or villians. It's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
My lists of Possibilities:
With no dark queen to hold him back, Sargas will certainly take the lead for the Forces of Night. The minotaurs will do the obvious, they'll conquer
:fight!:
The Elves are now homeless due to a case of "If you don't go out to the world, the world will come to you. Always" :D They'll be exiled for a decade or two fighting off the minotaurs, Titans and their ogre minions, the human tribes of the Planes of Dust who don't want the elves on "their" land. And ofcourse, Mina and the Knights of Neraka
will exact their revenge on all elves everywhere. Not a good combination is it.Solamnia will likely have a period of "Reconstuction" now that Skie is gone. They'll probably lock horns with Ergoth and the Dark Knights with their mercenry settlers in Qualinesti.
Three uber dragons gone means less compatition for the remaining uber dragons.
The possibilities are overwhelling, with alot of potential adventure seeds ;)
Now, I can understand that they breed slower, etc., and have been occupied and abused.
But 1000? I think that's a little low....
I could see them having 1000 *troops* left....which could leave a civilian population of 10-20000 or more. But 1000 elves? Period?
Banshee
Two thousand seems low. But considering everything that's happened to them, it should be low. At this point, if things don't turn around, some major breeding programs may be needed to keep them going.
So they can try to put a breeding program in, but due to genetics, they can't go any faster than when they can concieve.
-Krys
these days elves live shorter lives, and are fertile a little more.
the sylvan veil is a wonderful guide to elven lifestyles. Read it, and you'll have a great idea of life and society.
oh wait, its fifth age. never mind.
-Krys
His whole post is correct.
Elves used to live over 1,000 years (I think the average was 1,200 or so) back in the day...waaaay back in the day. Modern elves do not live so long (I think it's closer to 400 years or so, now).
And, the Sylvan Veil IS about as close as we ever got to a racial book on elves. (much like Rise of the Titans is for Ogres) But, maybe we can expect race books from Sov Press. After all, they're doing it with Sovereign Stone...so maybe we can expect the same for Dragonlance. :D
(Spoiler Warning!!!! If you haven't read the war of souls, dont read further!!!)
Now, after the War of Souls ended theres alot going on, and characters have plenty of chances to make a difference again in the world. I'm very anxious to see what becomes of paladine and takhisis. What will Paladine do now that he is mortal ? Will he just be a wondering advisor figure now? And what happened with Takhisis' body? You know her dedicated followers will scramble and try to find a way to bring her back. Think of the Nastiness!
I don't see reviving her as a possibility.
-Krys
Originally posted by Krystal
Correct me if I'm wrong, but she's dead. That's why her body disappeared.
I don't see reviving her as a possibility.
-Krys
Actually, her body didn't disappear. Mina grabbed it carried it away for a secret burial.
As for reviving Takhisis, never say never, but it will probably take ten years and a new edition of D&D for that to happen. Even then we may find that Sargonnas fills the void readily enough, and that want a new definition of evil to fill the void.
Bane came back because he was the evil of the lawful blackguard, where Cyric was the evil of the chaotically insane. There wasn't really a god to take Bane's place. Takhisis... I think Sargonnas will pretty much do all the things that Takhisis once did. I mean, he's already trying to follow in her footsteps and conquer Ansalon. Since he could prevent Takhisis from forcing him to bear the children, I don't think he's going to have much success. I mean, he isn't exactly a guy that easily commands a lot of respect after reading that. ;)
The only thing I have a problem with is (if my memory serves, it's been a few years) that at the end of the "Dragons of Summer Flame" it's pretty clear that the God's leave on their own accord. And Raist' jumps on the back of a Dragon with Palidin and fly's off into the sunset. Then all of a sudden in the war of souls their world was snatched from them. Mabey I'm missing something or mabey my memory is failing. I still loved the books though.
On a Side note I think that Tracey Hickman and Magaret Weis have developed as writeers. Sir Gerrard has become my favorite personality in all of the DragonLance stories. They really developed a "real" person that is so easy for me to relate with. I'm looking forward to the future. It is set up to be great.
For you see, when the world was snatched and the Dark Queen owned the land she had to cement her hold. It wouldn't do for the mortals to learn of her deception or they might just do some foolish things: i.e. searching for the gods, fighting back at her, etc.
So what does she do? She uses a simple ruse. Fake Raistlin (she knows old Raisty very well and can probably immitate him with no real effort) appears and tells the tale of the gods' sacrifices. Fake Paladine (Tak's bro, elder god, been around a few eons, she knows how he talks and acts) appears and rides off with Raistlin. Noone's the wiser.
It's fiendish in its simplicity. Sure it seems like a poorly done ret-con, but I think its a very reasonable action for the Dark Queen of All Evil to pull such a simple ruse. A few words and everyone thinks that all of the gods are gone! HAHA!