I can't figure out what would "tempt" a preserver to defile. I see defilers have all sorts of tasty feats to boost their powers, but they are limited to defilers, so a preserver will not even have the feat, let alone be allowed to use it. Is there some other inherent defiling bonus that is automatic, and needs no feat? Not having any defiler feats, what would tempt a preserver from defiling "just this once" to cast a given spell?
I grant you that defilers are overall a bit more powerful once they have 2 or 3 of those feats under their belt, and the social ramifications compensate for that power, I'm just searching for the tempation process of converting from one side to the other.
I am assuming that since you didn't mention Raze in your post that you may not be familiar with it. Read it and you'll understand a little more about the temptations.
The temptation for preservers to instantly defile is not huge, but it never was huge in 2E either. It lies in the defiling radius' effect on enemies caught within it, and especially plant creatures.
See the old message boards for multiple lengthy discussions on the matter. I'm not going down that road again.
EDIT: Splelling mistake
Hmmmm
I was really hoping for more. The books I read had a fair reference to preservation spells taking longer to cast. I figured defilers would be given a casting time boost (or preservers a penalty). So a preserver needs to cast spells faster, he can suck the energy faster, at a price.
I hope they add some effect that makes a simple defiling tempting. What about efficient razing not requiring a feat, it's just an act of defiling...taking more from what's around you. I think the vast social penalty defiling has compensates for the boost.
I know I know, a million preserver/defiler variants have already been posted. I am not trying to post another, just a hope that there will be some rule that tempts preservers.
I remember one scene from the earlier novels in dark sun, where (and I am forgetting huge portions of this book now, including character names) the woman preserver tried to cast a spell in a very barren part of land. Due to the scarcity of plant life it was taking to long to gather the energy, and she was in fact tempted to draw it faster to cut the casting time down, though she would have defiled to do it. It might just be a matter of a casting time penalty in the more barren areas.
By way of advantage, they have access to 3 or 4 feats that preservers do not, however those feats are not part of the class per se, they still have to spend a feat slot. It's an advantage, but not an overwhelming one as a preserver will be spending those feats on other useful things (empower spell or whatnot). The feats are nice (some of them anyways), but it's not a big advantage. At the moment, just by rules, defilers do have a disadvantage. Add in the social disadvantage, which I feel still counts, and you have several strikes against him.
Now as far as that goes, I don't think it's a big deal, as I say, I am less fussy on balance as some. I realize however that you are creating a wotc mandated expansion, and you need to be fussier on balance. I'd still argue that the defilers need a boost to make up for the disadvantage. In theory, people become defilers, because they don't have the dedication to become preservers, it's arguably "easier" (for some definition of easy).
It could be way to late to change anything now, which is unfortunate, I just think there should be some boost to defilers to counteract the disadvantages, and to make defiling magic itself more tempting.
Xeros, I share your point of view, but I belive that athas.org team can't do it other way due to the restrictions WotC made as this is an official conversion.But: with only a small twist on the official rules you can make defilers more powerful: make the defiler feats a class feature to the wizard class. It would mean a constant temptation to all wizard then to defile, and doesn't cost any extra effort (feat) from the wizard to go to the dark side. But beware, this makes defiling really very powerful!
If you are interested in the speed thing, than you can treat preserving as a slowing factor, the same effect as if PHB sorcerer or bard uses metamagic feats. And defiling has normal casting time. Other good ideas are found in the threads here. Feel free to browse!
If you are interested in the speed thing, than you can treat preserving as a slowing factor, the same effect as if PHB sorcerer or bard uses metamagic feats. And defiling has normal casting time. Other good ideas are found in the threads here. Feel free to browse!
I was going to go this route. A quickened preserved spell would be a standard action. This gives the incentive to defile in a hurry if need be (being a sitting duck can do that)
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
The temptation for preservers to instantly defile is not huge, but it never was huge in 2E either. It lies in the defiling radius' effect on enemies caught within it, and especially plant creatures.
See the old message boards for multiple lengthy discussions on the matter. I'm not going down that road again.
EDIT: Splelling mistake
It really is amazing that this same line of thought keeps popping up, isn't it. :D I don't want to pick on you, I really, really don't, it just seems that a better system needs to be made in an "unofficial" way.
It really is amazing that this same line of thought keeps popping up, isn't it. I don't want to pick on you, I really, really don't, it just seems that a better system needs to be made in an "unofficial" way.
Equally amazing that one is still no closer to an actual solution. ;)
Originally posted by Quarion
Quarion finds a scroll of forgotten lore, and beings to ressurrect a dead and beaten horse.
It really is amazing that this same line of thought keeps popping up, isn't it. :D I don't want to pick on you, I really, really don't, it just seems that a better system needs to be made in an "unofficial" way.
Here's a thought...Why don't you make one then. ;)
P.S. No fair that you know me and me not you, mind sending me an email to enlighten me?
[email=nytcrawlr@crimsonsun.org]Nathan[/email]
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Equally amazing that one is still no closer to an actual solution. ;)
:D Touche' my friend!
Actually the honeymoon was a wonderful place to get ideas for Athas. Before everyone gets crazy ideas, I am talking about Hawaii. All the Athasian landscapes were there with the obvious exception of the sea of silt. Walking over broken a'ah lava gave me a good visual of rocky badlands, and the lava fields a good feeling of the obsidian plains.
I think that I actually came up with a solution to my own personally posed problem, and by sheer coincience answered how psionics and magic can combine into psionic enchantments. When I have found time (I'm at work, so I don't have the time right now) I'll write up my idea for others to throw rocks at it.
Basically the idea is to use the idea of energy gathering again, and increase the amount of points per day a spellcaster can use. Energy can be stored for quick casting (limited by level), and energy can be restored quicker (no 8 hour of sleep needed every day).
Defilers get their kicks by being able to use metamagic feats for "free". They don't care about excess energy, so their spells can really wreak havoc.
More powerful, yes, but IMO not a gamebreaker.
Just give me a bit of patience while I write up something a little less vauge before the storm of slings and arrows come.
Touche' my friend!
I couldn't resist.
Good to hear your honeymoon went well!
Did you take any photographs of the athasian landscape?
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Equally amazing that one is still no closer to an actual solution. ;)
More than 5 good solution came up during the debates... But first please define 'good', as it is essential to understand the point of view you have...
http://darksun.3sins.com
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Nagypapi, read the DS3FAQ and you will know the answer.
But there have been suggestions where defilers, preservers and PHB wizards have all been balanced. You might want to put another disclaimer on there saing something along the lines of, "We couldn't wait forever to put the core rules out. We went for the 'publish and be damned' option."
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
If you get them in a digital format, and would be willing to make your landscape pictures open to the public, that would be very convenient. Do you have a DS website? If not, I'd be happy to post them in the Misc section on my site.
I'll definately get in touch with you once we've figured out where everything is, and have finally unpacked.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Nagypapi, read the DS3FAQ and you will know the answer.
http://darksun.3sins.com
I did, and it is quite good. I understand that within the given parameters you did the best you could do with the wizardly magic system. (I had my fair share from the beating of the dead kank, so no more.
Been there, done that, enough.) But I spoke about house rules here. That's why I asked you to 'define good'. If 'balance' is the key word, the winner is the athas.org team. If somebody is interested more in flavour, and less in game balance there is very much good solutions out there.Sorry if I was misunderstandable.
Then there will always be the discussion of whether a preserver or defiler should be able to linewalk like Sadira does, and whether defiling should work as described in the novels or not.
Although it makes intersting for tempatation purposes.
The general person on Athas believes that the world has been reduced to what it is through Defiler magic, & I am pretty sure that most humanoids don't like the world as deadly as it is, even those in power.
So why then would anyone defile? Wizards are not stupid, they generally understand what they are doing to their surroundings. I doubt most defilers like living in a world of constant heat & high chance of death. I don't think that most wizards are vehement enough to "just defile", when they probably understand that it is, indeed, ripping the life energies out of the world.
It just doesn't make sense if Defiling & Preserving act the same way. I mean, I understand I have yet to provide a solution to this problem, & I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I do think that there is merit to make Defiling more powerful, even drastically so over Preserving. Dark Sun has never been about a silly concept like "balance", nor should it now.
The exchange, *should* be enough to warrant someone willing to undertake both the stigma and the rule penalty of the profession, and should be enough to tempt weak willed preservers from defiling on occasion.
Ideas could include:
-Efficient razing is a built in effect, not a feat. It's just the bonus for defiling.
-Preserving requires a spellcraft check in infertile terrain or worse to avoid doubling casting time (my favorite)
-A simple +1 caster level effect for defiling, or -1 to save checks
-a bonus on concentration checks as you don't have to concetrate as hard.
I appreciate the work the designers are putting into this (I just read the tyrian conspiracy adventure, great stuff). Hopefully this is seen as contructive criticism.
Originally posted by Orias
So why then would anyone defile? Wizards are not stupid, they generally understand what they are doing to their surroundings. I doubt most defilers like living in a world of constant heat & high chance of death. I don't think that most wizards are vehement enough to "just defile", when they probably understand that it is, indeed, ripping the life energies out of the world.
This has been a point of many a debate here, and for those of us who would like to use a non-official wizard class we all have our own desires. Of course this will mean that really unless someone out there comes out with a stupendously fantastic wizard then we'll each have our own versions.
I for one am (slowly) writing up magic rules that make wizards closer to psions and psions closer to wizards. I know that this will suit my purposes (with constructive feedback from the community), but it might not be what anyone else is looking for.
The DS3 (or 3.5) team is / was tasked to create a D&D 3e (3.5e) version of Dark Sun and not a d20 version of Dark Sun. In doing that I give out many kudos and congradulations. However, this doesn't necessarily meet some of the group's desires to see a magic system that meets our vision.
It just doesn't make sense if Defiling & Preserving act the same way. I mean, I understand I have yet to provide a solution to this problem, & I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I do think that there is merit to make Defiling more powerful, even drastically so over Preserving. Dark Sun has never been about a silly concept like "balance", nor should it now.
Well balance is important.
I think I have a repressed memory of a 2nd ed thri-kreen psi / cleric with split mind that proves that you can't ignore balance. However, I do agree with you that most of us were "raised" on the idea that Athas was different, and some imbalances were just fine.D&D3 (or 3.5) says balance is key. So DS3 also says balance is key since it isn't DS-d20.
Trust me, it took me a long time to realize that, and now I feel much more comfortable with what has been and is being done.I hope that by mid-day tomorrow I'll have my initial public draft of my DS-d20 wizard for the group to throw stones at. One thing is sure, this wizard is more powerful than D&D wizards, and defiling is definately attractive.
In the desert, no one can see you defile
To offset the built in penalties that a defiler has which are not counter balanced outside of feats (which I do like the feats though, and don't really allow defilers in my home games it wouldn't matter much to me, but I digress), a -1 to a defiler's save DC. If no one can see you defile, then you also don't have a target to benefit from the tougher save DC, no?
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I think that preservers should equal the PHB wizard with no modification. Defilers gaining extra abilities through feats is just as imbalancing game wise as making the defiler beefier than the core wizard, IMHO.
I'm currently quite fond of the idea of defiling doing subdual damage to the caster. However, you make defiling 'better', you are still dealing with raw, wild energy which causes exhaustion and exhilaration in equal measure. I think it says in the background somewhere that Rajaat's original efforts to invent sorcery nearly resulted in his death so we know it's no walk in the park, right?