I have a question that maybe people on this forum can answer.
I'm looking for a list of the the most well known cities in the great wheel (and inner planes), and also for maps and guides for them.
I'm pretty new to the Great Wheel cosmology, I missed Planescape when it was in the shops, and apart from the Manual of the Planes, the only books I have are Planescape monster appendix 2 & 3.
The important cities I've heard of are;
Sigil (Outlands)
City of Brass (Fire)
City of Glass (Water)
note - by 'well know cities' here I mean those where planar travellers can go relatively freely, and planar commerce or adventure can be found.
Many thanks
Union(from the ELH)
Tradegate(Outlands, Gatetown)
Dis(The Nine Hells, layer 2)
The City of Minauros within Minauros, the second layer of Baator
The Bronze Citadel on Avernus the 1st layer in Baator
Jangling Hiter in Minauros in Baator
Tantlin, the City of Ice in Stygia in Baator
Abriymoch in Phlegethos the 4th layer of Baator
Malagard in Maladomini the 7th layer of Baator
Grenpoli the city of Dimplomacy in Maladomini
Mephistar within Cania, the 8th layer of Baator
Death of Innocence in the 2nd layer of the Grey Waste (safety amid the grey wasting of the Waste)
Center in the Grey Waste (at a confluence of all 3 layers of the Waste... curious place...)
The Crawling City of Gehenna (NOT advised to go there...)
Nimicri the living city above Chamada in Gehenna. (good place, lots of trade, chance to get eaten by and absorbed by the town...)
All of the Gatetowns in the Outlands (wonderful places)
Tu'nar'ath in the Astral Plane (detailed in Dungeon magazine of late)
There's tons more, I simply don't remember more than what amounts to more than a drop in the bucket off the top of my head. Also, www.planewalker.com will be releasing detailed descriptions and 3rd ed updates to all of the gatetowns. What I've seen so far looks very very nice.
Most cities in the Nine Hells and Hades you mention is far less usable as commercial centers for primes in a regular campaign, IME.
It's a munchkins paradise and its completely out of step with every other city and location in the Planes. I mean seriously, there's epic level gateguards. Hmm, they must sit around all day thinking to themselves, "You know, with my skills I could go out and rule a kingdom of my own almost anywhere on the prime I wished to rule. .... Or I could work for a bunch of Mercanes as a part of a city watch! There's a future I can deal with! Go mercanes!"
I view Union as a hackneyed attempt to have an alternative to Sigil, avoid detailing Sigil, and appealing to those folks who frankly couldn't handle the depth of a campaign centered in the City of Doors. That may sound offensive, but Planescape in general, and a campaign centered around Sigil takes more than the normal bit of involvement and intelligence of the part of both players and DM. Union requires much less.
Union could be used in a general planes campaign, with the Mercanes trying to set up their own alternative to the Cage. After all, Mercanes will go to any length to avoid stepping inside Sigil. They're terrified of the city, and no one knows why. If they inadvertantly step through a portal into Sigil, they're scream, act horrified and attempt to leave through the closest available portal, regardless of where it leads. They, for whatever reason, would take a portal to the Abyss or to the Negative Energy Plane rather than stay in Sigil.
I also don't give the Mercanes the credit, means, and frankly the competance to create a city such as Union. Why are there epic level shopkeepers wandering around in a city they can't influence or be more than a token presence in because the Mercanes run everything. Why aren't these folks in Sigil which has existed for FAR longer than Union would have, possibly since the origin of the planes? And with all these epic level streetsweepers and such walking around, why havn't they butchered the Mercanes yet and taken over themselves? Mercanes aren't exactly reknowned for their personal power after all.
Union, unlike Sigil, doesn't have the stakes at play that the City of Doors has. It's a demiplane, its not the 'city at the center of everything'. There's no great moral, ethical, or philosophical debate centered upon Union, and if one side or the other in any such debate took control of Union, the planes aren't at stake in any way such as with Sigil. Heck, even the Blood War doesn't so much as care about Union, and thats half of Unions possible business there frankly.
Union is a poorly created concept and it would take alot to convince me otherwise. Union is something that people in Sigil and across the planes snicker about by and large.
The concept is just silly.
Make a epic level campaign about whatever you want, but don't take the cheap way out as the writers of Union did. Simply making a city/location that has a whole bunch of other epic level critters, and treating it the same as you would a first level game is nearly an abuse of a players time and effort in building an epic character. The city makes no sense, and so much of a character's abilities would be wasted here.
Mind you, this is an error the writers made, perhaps in your own campaign you've corrected it without even realizing you've done so. It's difficult to judge from a single post.
Epic level campiagns shouldn't be about the adventuring and physical combat anymore. An epic level goal could involve something like - a character returning home to conquer his noble house in Amn, overthrown his evil father and rescue the house honor (done it). Another character becoming a rare human worshipper of Bahamut, and enduring his personal testing before moving to build a temple and pilgramage site (seen it done). The conscious choice of an adventuring party to a develop a list of contacts, blackmail information, favors and so forth with the sole goal of shaving a certain fiendish crosstrader before removing her from the campaign at large (currently doing it).
The best epic level goals aren't "Get money and experience." The best goals are, "Change the world around us." Union is built (and written as it is) for the wrong goal.
This is negativity speaking, and I am sorry about that.
Having previously used Sigil as a base of my campaign, I have to say it wasn`t quite the same.
I have played planar campaigns for years, and loved planescape, specifically the part of planescape that thoroughly details the outer planes. Sigil has never quite struck my fancy, at least not as a DM.
When you have wizards able to cast Gate-spells, or a handy cubic gate, you don`t have the same use for a "City of Doors" that is filled with with mad contradictory groupings who rule it, or even enigmatic godlike beings that flies around mazing those she disapproves of.
Union is not filled with any "philosophers with clubs". It is a trade city where you find most of the stuff you want, if you have the money for it, that is. It is a far more acceptable place to run an epic-level campaign.
What do you mean with "munchkins paradise"'? This is a suggestion that you don`t quite back up with any argument.
Mercanes not powerful? 7HD creatures to begin with, they could have any classes that are available, and still be more powerful than any humanoid.(=a 20th level Mercane wizard is far more powerful than a common 20th level human wizard)
As far as I know, there aren`t any gatekeepers in Union. Union is its own demiplane, and the City Watch does not guard the gates there, I believe.
Who are the epic level shopkeepers? The most powerful shopkeeper detailed is Suplindh, and he is a 17th level sorcerer.
The reason for an epic character to go to Union, must be the Epic Organisations that are broadly based there.
But if you, or others, want to be a bit constructive, please advise me how to conduct an epic campaign in the city of Sigil. That would be much appreciated.
Throw in the Free League across the Outlands, the Merkhants and more importantly the Planar Trade Consortium based out of the gatetown of Tradegate and Sigil itself and the Mercane are little more than a drop in the bucket of planar trade.
Suffice to say, frankly there's little need for Union to exist. There's no purpose for the people detailed as being there to actually be there. It's a poorly designed concept that caters to those who would rather be fighting the next biggest monster and getting the next uber kewl +28 shocking burst vorpal evil bane cleaving mercurial great sword of demon slaying. And so when I say 'munchkins paradise' its because of the 'you can buy whatever you want' attitude that seems to swirl around the city combined with the laughable situation of its very existance.
It's 'Sigil for Dummies' that panders to those less interested in larger, more complex issues across the planes and just where to go to buy the best stuff and then go kill the next biggest thing so you have gold to go buy the best stuff so... you get the point.
I'm being a bit harsh here, but Union as designed fits poorly with every other location across the planes, it seems to have been made with little regards to the history of the planes and established cities. A place like Union wouldn't simply just pop up suddenly without ever having been recognized or mentioned in prior planar canon. I repeat, its a stupid concept.
And its mentioned that the Mercane have a Planar Gate that cycles through connections to other Planar cities. And they mention Sigil. If its to be suggested that the Mercane can build their own portal into Sigil, that's BS. And even if its happenstance and Her Serenity allows the link to Union on a periodic basis, why in the names of all the powers would the Mercane wish to stay within Union. As I said before, the Mercane are horrifed of Sigil for some unknown reason. Perhaps they fear retribution by The Lady for some crime now long forgotten across the planes? The answer is dark to perhaps all but the Mercane themselves.
The planar organizations have a bit of saving grace for the entire thing, but they're overpowered and kitchy. Take a concept, toss in some 38th level characters and simmer.
And the very existance of the demiplane is a death sentance in waiting for the mercanes, be it the Planar Trade Consortium or some other group that sees them even beginning to be a loss in business. Union has no race of Efreeti, nor Baatezu, nor Yugoloth, nor Her Dread Majesty The Lady of Pain to protect it. And if you honestly think that the mercanes can defend themselves like that, I will laugh.
And being even more harsh, and don't take this personally, but I have to question if you really get the whole feel and concepts involved in a rich Planescape campaign. It's not a setting for newbie players, nor for many DM's. It takes a bit of involvement to spin the world and especially the complexities involved in the Blood War, the factions, the City of Doors, etc. If your players are happy and you're enjoying your own world, then its not my place to nay say perhaps, but that you're using and enjoying Union makes me question the campaign and the focus of it and the players.
Not a very new player either, I have been a D&D DM for 13 years.
Well, as I said earlier:
Sigil is a dangerous place. Faction Wars and its history has shown that quite a bit. When the city is ruled by opposing factions, as well as the totally enigmatic Lady, it becomes very diificult for me to see how anyone voluntarily would go there...if not for the gates and portals found there. Remove those, or add them to another city, like Union, and you have a much more stable environment, not only for trade(rs), but also most people.
I don`t know how to compare the Mercane to other races/groupings of traders. They are probably fewer in number than most. But it is said that Union is a rather new city, only 80 years old, and that they spent decades/centuries to build the city and make it a centre for trade, and they are more neutral than groupings like Celestials and the Free League will ever be.
About protecting the city: Many Mercanes are very powerful wizards, even accessing epic spells. The epic organisations that are based there would probably aid where they could if the safety of the city were at stake as well, especially the Union Sentinels.
Many places could be said to not fit in with the rest of the planes. The entire plane of Gehenna is one such place, dubbed boring by many I`ve discussed with, filled with fiends that mostly already exist on other lower planes, filling no real independent purpose, and so on.
I think I have understood the City of Doors. I just don`t like what I see much.
Originally posted by Surcus
Many places could be said to not fit in with the rest of the planes. The entire plane of Gehenna is one such place, dubbed boring by many I`ve discussed with, filled with fiends that mostly already exist on other lower planes, filling no real independent purpose, and so on.
First of all I didn't wish to offend, and at this point it seems that I'm unlikely to persuade you, and you're unlikely to persuade me on the virtues or shortcomings of Union. I think we can leave it at that then.
However, Gehenna boring? *boggle* The stronghold of the Yugoloth race, one of the planes of conflict and likely second only to the Grey Waste in terms of traffic and battlefields for the Blood War. And boring you've heard it described as? Wow. Just... wow.
There's a wealth of material detailing the fourfold furnaces of perdition, just one mount in and of itself could be made a campaign and never actually leave the planar layer. But that's your opinion, and I'll admit I don't share it. *shrug*And the 'loths of Gehenna have a truly noble independent purpose... themselves. *cackle*
On to the City of Union. I, for one, am not a member of that particular venture. Some of my more greedy brethren decidied to gamble on the gold and glory seeking attitudes of those deemed Epic (my mind says Ridiculous) in Deed and Power. It may serve as a profitible investment, but I feel Demiplanes are too remote. As my affairs rarely lead me into Sigil proper, (I have associates and trusted go betweens for that) I find it less and less a growth market after their little faction spat. Tradegate and the Marketplace Eternal hold more lucrative deals and interesting opportunities. And who ever told you the Planar Trade Consortium was unfriendly or even on bad terms with the Mercane? No, no, we are very cordial in our dealings and ventures. I think you take your rivalry with Trade Lord Estevan too seriously Shemeska. But I still relish the first business ventures I participated in, the hustle and bustle of the spaceways... Ah to see the Galleons and Hammerships once again. I do so miss the Rock of Bral.
*tips razorvine tiara* 'I will admit however from what you say that I have a bit more respect for you and your brethren, if Union lets you skim the purses of the powerful, filled as they are with their own naivete. Good luck in your ventures.' (so long as they interfere not with my own....)
Based on the description of Union in the ELH, the city comes off as a near direct copy of Sigil. It has portals to every part of the multiverse, it is a center for trade, and it is repeatedly referred to the place people go to when they want to get some where in the multiverse. This is THE purpose of Sigil. Of course our friends at Wizards prefers not to use Planescape, and thus it seems to me they've created Union as an alternative to using Sigil. The fact that it is merely a duplicate, a half-duplicate of that, and serves no real purpose of its own...well, its not a good start.
The main problem with the city is the plausibility of such a realm existing. As the lady as mentioned, any such realm would be a battle ground between every force the multiverse has. Whats to stop the tanar'ri from invading? Or the baatezu from trying to stop them? Or the celestials from using it as a central point to attack all fiends? In fact, what prevents the deities themselves from moving in and claiming? The mercane? The possibility of any single organization holding off everything the multiverse has to offer is ludicrous.
The description says the Mercane rely on the Union Sentinels to protect their city, and when they fail they "buy" outside help. First the Union Sentinels: They are examples of "city guards"...EPIC city guards. I can only wonder what sorry adventuer who has climbed to epic level retires to do guard duty. A character who, as mentioned, could claim an entire world, lead a legion of planar warriors in any war, and quite possibly face the great fiends themselves...regulated to guard duty. Being payed "gold" no less. I'm sorry, I should think that there comes a time when someone is beyond gold. Can you imagine bribing old Elminster, or even the dread Manshoon. Such individuals have far greater plans then collecting gold of all things. A city of union sentinels discredits epic level characters. NO city should have a legion of epic level defenders. NO epic-level character should be a simple guard.
Should the guards fail, we have the adventuring parties hired for gold and magic items. I once again return to the idea that at some point gold becomes meaningless. Epic parties should not be enticed by gold or magic, their dreams are far grander, greater than anything the Mercane should be able to provide unless they are deities themselves. This all means that there are parties of epic-level characters wondering the plans looking for work...once again we've cheapened epic-level characters.
And in the end, no single force the Mercanes could hire could protect their fair city. It just doesn't make sense. Sigil on the otherhand, does everything Union does AND it has a reasonable explanation for why it works. Your statement that Sigil is a dangerous place gives me the impression that you've been misled by Faction Wars. Sigil has the most able guardian, someone capable of defending the lowest level adventurers from the big leagues. Its "contradictory" factions give it its character, something Union lacks in contrast. Even so, with the factions out of Sigil, the place is likely a bit less politically hectic.
The Manual of the Planes deeply and profoundly sucks.
About the epic-level Union Sentinels: Not all epic characters are alike. Epic characters are characters that are able to, and have done, great deeds. Not all of them WANTS to be heroes of reknown, just able to aid their country or world in a best possible way. At least here in Europe, we have countless examples of great heroes doing fantastic things without wanting the credit for it. I would think that some of the Sentinels are just that to get away from their fame/infamy of faraway worlds.
And besides, what is supposed to happen in an epic campaign ?
If you put great adventures threatening the multiverse in every session, it becomes stale in a while. The campaign needs relative "downtime" to work for a long time, and that means that "normal" activity like aiding the city guard at minor matters in their present site, at times at least.
It should also be mentioned that Union Sentinels have spare time, they have the possibility to take time off to go on an adventure, for example. They are just aligned with the Union council of Mercanes while doing so.
Groupings of great heroes have been in several worlds already. The position as a Sentinel is a very prestigious one, when only the best of the best can enter their service.
The Knights of the Round Table, the Knights of the Griffon(dragonriders) of Thyatis City, Mystara, the Knights of Solamnia(at least Sword/Rose) are all high level groupings in different worlds.
A reason that Union is not invaded all the time, can be that there are alot of these places, as we began this discussion with. Tradegate, City of Glass, Dis, Sigil, and so on.
About Sigil:
I still can`t see why most merchants would go to a place where wars, planar invasions(like in the "Nina" books), closing of gates, and the totally unpredictable Lady on top of that.
The Faction Wars should and would make them search for a better location, or at least an alternative, when Sigil is too "hot".
I repeat my main argument: When you have access to gates via spells or magic items, Sigil is not "needed".
I'm now aware of the intent to release new Planescape material in 3e format - so I'm resisting the urge to buy old material from Ebay. This leads me back to my original question though in a way - does anyone have links to any good web resources for setting details?
Originally posted by Surcus
A reason that Union is not invaded all the time, can be that there are alot of these places, as we began this discussion with. Tradegate, City of Glass, Dis, Sigil, and so on.
About Sigil:
I still can`t see why most merchants would go to a place where wars, planar invasions(like in the "Nina" books), closing of gates, and the totally unpredictable Lady on top of that.
The Faction Wars should and would make them search for a better location, or at least an alternative, when Sigil is too "hot".
First of all, Sigil, unlike those other Planar cities has gates that access virtually every plane of existance if you have the right key. Tradegate has two main gates, one to Bytopia and one to Sigil, thats it. The City of Glass has relatively few portals as well, though its importance, at least in the inner planes, is waxing. Dis again, has relatively few portals accessing elsewhere.
Union, as described, claims a huge number of portals to other planes of existance, making it something like a cut rate Sigil. Unlike the other planar cities mentioned, and only like Sigil these portals would make it an attraction to traders and merchants ideally. It would also make it a prime target for every Abyssal Lord, Lord of the 9, ArchCelestial and Power in all of the multiverse. Sigil can defend itself from this wanton rush for the power the place could bring to any army that held it, Union would not be able to. Epic casters and Epic Union Sentinals included, just as an examble, Bel, Lord of the 1st of Baator could simply keep pumping Baatezu into Union till he overwhelmed the defenders once they ran out of spells. They would stand no chance versus just one of the potential enemies a city with so many characteristics to Sigil would garner like flies to honey.
And aside, to the second thing you mention above that I quoted, I'll agree with you on one thing. Sigil as a city for trade is waning in the short term. The disruptions brought about by the Tempest of Doors shocked many merchants, and The Planar Trade Consortium as perhaps the largest interest in Sigil has altered their trade routes to go by alternate ways rather than through the City of Doors. Trade will likely return, but for the moment Estavan and crew are seeking profit elsewhere.
However Sigil, except for that little spat with the Blood War erupting into the city to form The Slags, is free of invasion and war, except for internal conflict, perhaps more than any other planar metropolis I would argue. [And I'd argue that when the Blood War slipped over into Sigil it was allowed by Her Serenity. Though for what future purpose, I do not know. Nothing She does within Sigil is by mistake or whimsy. Nothing.]
And as far as I know, the Blood War Trilogy (the Nina books you mention) aren't considered canon for the setting. From what I've seen, non of the information therein, or from Pages of Pain, is getting ported into 3rd edition Planescape.
Originally posted by Droo
thanks for all the great posts inspired by my original topic
I'm now aware of the intent to release new Planescape material in 3e format - so I'm resisting the urge to buy old material from Ebay. This leads me back to my original question though in a way - does anyone have links to any good web resources for setting details?
You're welcome. *gracious, fiendish smile*
I know that www.planewalker.com will be releasing the Sigil supplement in the near future, though the Faction Material is the next for public release. And its very very well written. They did a wonderful job on it. I didn't have a hand in any of the faction stuff, but I've read some of it and I'm impressed. :D
And go for the older material on Ebay, it's worth it. I've still got a few pieces to complete for my collection, but Ebay has been a godsend in that regards. For all of the wealth of 2e material out there, some is going to be passed by as its ported to 3e, we just can't write that much in many cases. It's still valid and still usefull however, and in many cases gives more background to some events that will be new once the conversions are released. I can't wait either.
About invading Union: Why would they(for example, the baatezu)
invade at all? It would be a very costly affair for anyone to defeat hordes(at least a few hundred) epic characters, if they could at all, and for what gain? I doubt it would give any advantage against the tanar`ri, really.
I would say Sigil is not invincible to attacks from mighty enemies as well. Sigil has no fields, little natural resources. It could perhaps be starved,its gates could be locked from the other side, etc, etc. To me, the city seems very vulnerable.
But here is part of the problem, for me. It is not that Sigil is so terrible. Factions are cool, I have enjoyed playing Sensates and Sodkillers several times. My problem is that the city is not usable for my epic campaign, and I can`t really see how it could satisfy epic characters.
The Lady keeps out gods from her city. OK. What is a god? A mighty being? What is the difference between a mighty epic character and a god? Will the lady maze or kill a being that is 40, 50 or 100th level, because she feels he could be a threat to her authority or even to herself?
There are not really many attempts listed to take over any of the planar metropolises, that I know of at least. The City of Brass has had a few would be conquerors. But Dis? Tu`narath?Tradegate? City of Glass?
The city in and of itself is not the valuable prize, the portals as a shortcut... now those are the prize, and an infinately valuable one.
Re: the Lady's portals - Sigil has probably been beseiged before. But one thing that Her Serenity's actions do seem to all come down to - She protects Her city. Since it is Her power to open or close the portals, it is Her power to change their location. A concentrated effort to ... hm, as a loose example, to block off all portals to the city that provide water would result in Her switching portals relentlessly until She found a secure one. Beyond which the capabilities of create food and water - as well as other custom variences of this spell would negate the effectiveness of a seige. (Don't get me on the subject of how warfare changes when spells get involved - I'd puncture holes in far too much canon material.)
Beyond that is the issue that over the millenia the imports have 'stockpiled' in a way. You can find dirt and grassy areas, parks, etc in Sigil, only because the traffic of the ages have brought enough dirt into the area. Water probably has cycled as well over time, though it's not likely that this has been addressed in the core books as of yet.
No one knows Sigil's true size (remember there is UnderSigil to count in this as well - Under NewYork is bigger than New York proper...). She has an infinate variety of places to secure resources from, and an infinate number of bounded spaces as well. It's been noted that even the side of the Cage itself would be a bounded space. The sheer *size* of such an undertaking, in combination with the tactical issues of gathering a force to do it would be prohibitive. I could go into a deeper review of how this would be difficult but that would become a *very* long post.
I will leave the "what epic level campaigns can be played in Sigil" question to Shemeska, as the little fiend is currently running one and is likely more able to answer than I. So far I've only run Alternity and Call of Cthulhu... I enjoy playing too much.
And true, Sigil has few natural resources. Even building materials must be imported. However food and water can be conjured, and in this regards both Sigil and Union are in a similar position. Demiplanes aren't exactly breadbaskets either. Both have comparable situations it would seem.
And as far as sealing off Sigil by locking off its gates from the other side. People have and do destroy gates both temporarily or permenantly from one side or the other. If you're inside the city its likely to win you a one way trip to the mazes most times if becomes a burden to the city. If you're outside no such problem, likely, but in those cases The Lady simple creates a new gate to that location inside another bound space. In order to seal off Sigil you'd have to remove all bound spaces everywhere a portal might open out into. Thats just implausable.
As far as what constitutes a god as far as Her Serenity is concerned, from a game perspective it'd be having divine ranks. But she can bar anyone from the city, not just the powers if they present a threat, however powers gain Her attention for whatever reason especially. Archfiends for example cannot enter Sigil, even if they don't constitute powers. Epic level characters might fall into this, but I'd say it depends on their intentions for the city. If they intend it no harm and the their presence isn't disruptive, such as an Archfiend entering Sigil would be, than they can enter and go as they please. Would she kill a 40, 50 or 100th level being? Yes, without a moments hesitation if they posed a threat to the city. She's done it before. Shekelor of the Incanterium, and the final/first incarnation of Rowan Darkwood being prime examples.
Now as far as the other planar cities, Dis has been rather stable since Dispater is one of the more powerful Lords of the 9, and one of the oldest as well. It's relatively stable as far as Baatorian citadels go.
Tradegate may have a war of sorts looming as the Free League, leaving Sigil for the Outlands seeks to further establish their presence in the burg, while at the same time the Planar Trade Consortium does the same as Estavan more or less abandons many of his plans for Sigil after the Tempest of Doors and facing increased competition from Shemeska and Zadara who have their own designs for the City of Doors.
Tu'nar'ath has its own problems (especially if PS3e takes into accout the death of Vlaakith), and the Githyanki are harshly xenophobic to boot, so as a planer city it may be a poor choice. The Baatezu will at least bargain with you, the Gith may just kill you for not being of their race and entering their capital city.
The city of glass may have problems looming as well with the waxing power of the evil archomental of water, and the burgeoning problem of the shards of the quasiplane of salt massing to invade Elemental Water at some point in the indefinate future.
If there's any holes in my logic for any of these, do point them out, I'm rather enjoying this. My apologies for being a bit blunt earlier.
But really, yes there are infinite armies of demons and perhaps even devils...but those are mostly lesser ones. Invading an epic city like union would cost lives of many powerful attackers, and that is not very desirable outcome.
I also doubt that Union has many portals to strategic sites of the Blood War. It is not mentioned specifically that they have any portals to the lower planes at all.
Do not underestimate epic characters, least of all epic spells.
A very powerful epic spellcaster could probably block the city for a long while, and incinerate very large opposing armies.
If the Godkissed of Union are what they say they are, greater gods will probably interfere very quickly on Union`s behalf.
(The Tu`narath situation is rather interesting after Vlaakith`s death, I think. It will probably open up more than ever before. But there was a relatively large foreign quarter in the city earlier as well, the city was always trading with other races, like the mercanes. It is becoming a focus of my own campaign these days.(they just played the Dungeon 100 adventure))
But my point about the other cities was that they were seldom attacked, by agents of the Blood War or others. Why?
Even though they have gates to many locations.
And why has Dis never fallen to demons?
My guess has been for a while that the parties of the war are very evenly matched, all considered, and that they have little to spare, especially powerful beings that would have to be sacrificed for this purpose.
"But my point about the other cities was that they were seldom attacked, by agents of the Blood War or others. Why?
Even though they have gates to many locations. "
Except that they don't have gates to many location. Of the great planar cities, only Union and Sigil have such a large number of gates.
Tradegate has 2 main gates, neither of great importance to the Blood War. Tu'narath has few gates. The City of Brass and City of Glass are both few in terms of number of gates, and both being on the inner planes are out of the picture nearly with respect to the War Eternal.
And I doubt Dis has fallen in the Blood War simply because of how far into Baator it lies, and that the war rarely penetrates far into either the Abyss or Baator. Most of the fighting takes place across the 3 planes of conflict, Gehenna, The Grey Waste, and Carceri.
And yes, both sides in the war are very evenly balanced. The Yugoloths have a vested interest in seeing that the status quo stays in effect in the course of the Blood War. But something like Union is a prize worthy of sacrifice, even if it takes greater Baatezu. More likely they'd simply hurl least Baatezu at the demiplane along with mercenaries, likely Yugoloths as well if they paid them enough. The 'loths however would be just as likely to keep the demiplane for themselves if successful, and declare the battle a lost cause and quietly restrict access to the portals after slaughtering the Baatezu and Mercane alike. *happily sighs* That'd be the day, the very image brings a smile to my face.
*a smile plays across fiendish lips*
And now as for the Greater Gods banding together to stop Sigil's gates from manifesting, I'd have to first ask why? Is the question just hypothetical?
I'd honestly have to say that, no, they probably wouldn't or would find themselves unable to do so. Such an action on any greater powers behalf would be seen as a blow against the city, and the last power that tried, Aoskar is now floating in the Astral, pierced through with blades, with nearly all of his followers butchered in the instant he himself was killed. I don't see The Lady killing gods left and right, but if a group of them decided to go after Sigil I can see Her slaying one of them to make a point. Just how proactive she can stretch Herself to take action outside of Sigil we really don't know. Aoskar was likely outside of Sigil when he was killed, and its possible that factol Skall of the Dustmen was outside Sigil when he was mazed. The exact truth of each case remains dark, though its interesting to speculate on.
I don't want to say The Lady is all powerful, there's ample precident that she's not, but in some regards she very well may be. Challange Her power or try and harm the city, you fail, pure and simple as that.
Yet it has never fallen, never even been attacked by tanar`ri as far as I know. This city, with more than 4 million inhabitants, probably contains many planar gates, at least the various descriptions of the city hints toward that.
Being on the Inner Planes? Well, but accessible by the Astral(or perhaps you, being the Planescape purist you probably are, are using the old planar pathways?).
About discussing the Lady: It is all relative. We don`t know enough of what the Lady can do, or not do. Speculation is thriving about her.
Can the Lady really stop Greater Gods, especially if they are operating from outside the city? I doubt this. If a god like Pelor can reorganise Elysium(as said in Manual of the Planes), then many Greater Powers working together should be able to isolate
Sigil, altering reality or whatever it is they do. I do not think the Lady is all-powerful, though I can easily accept that she has limitless power inside Sigil.
It is interesting that she dissaproves so much of worship, could it be that she is not a deity at all? Just an epic character, perhaps? If she is 100th level or above, she has the raw power to challenge most beings, even gods.
Oh well..why do you, as a greater Yugoloth, hate Mercanes so, by the way? Your postings seem very aggressive towards them..
IMC I think Tu`narath can be the place both Sigil and Union can`t be...with the resurrection of the deity Gith can the opportunies be endless for the epic ones.
moogle001.
Union is an example of bad game design, a cheap copy of Sigil that makes no sense at all.
Kilamar
Originally posted by Surcus
About Sigil:
I still can`t see why most merchants would go to a place where wars, planar invasions(like in the "Nina" books), closing of gates, and the totally unpredictable Lady on top of that.
Well, planar invasions aside, a quick glance at the history of your Prime Material Earth would suggest that many of that planet's greatest cities have managed to attract plenty of merchants in their time despite war, ruler's caprice, plague &c &c. In fact, in some cases merchants have arrived precisely to exploit those conditions.
IMHO, as a setting, Sigil feels "real" . Union, on the other hand, reminds me of a ten-year-old playing good old-fashioned Basic D&D "Okay, so in this room you see 2 orcs, 7 vampires and a little old lady wearing tennis shoes" - great fun, possibly, but not necessarily a well-thought through, organic concept..
Originally posted by Clueless
Constantinople being a prime (pardon the pun) example.
Not to mention Rome (how many times was that place sacked exactly?), London, Venice, Jerusalem, ...
Originally posted by Droo
thanks for all the great posts inspired by my original topic
I'm now aware of the intent to release new Planescape material in 3e format - so I'm resisting the urge to buy old material from Ebay. This leads me back to my original question though in a way - does anyone have links to any good web resources for setting details?
Since nobody else seems to be interested in answering your question, I'll give it a shot. You can find a whole list of Planescape links on my bookmarks page. (They're a ways down; just search for "Planescape" and you'll get there quicker.) As far as cities go, Mogra is one of my favorite non-canon locations. It hardly qualifies as a trade center, but it's still a really interesting place.
Btw, if you don't want to pay through the nose for some of the harder-to-find supplements on eBay, you might prefer to get them in PDF format from svgames.com. They only cost about $5 apiece there.
Wyvern
And as far as cities goes I'll add Moscow to that list. A city can flourish even with military occupation or being conquered (The Golden Horde) or seige (Napoleon, WWII).
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
If you've got the spare cash I'd go for the paper copies over the pdf downloads. I've not been super impressed with the way some of those have been scanned in, especially when theres a multipage chart, poster, or map. At times its hard to follow. The paper copies on the other hand, much better and easier to appreciate the original art.
Definetely agreed.
Sigil is the most original and richly detailed city I've ever seen for any RPG, hands down. Suggesting that it could be seiged and cut off from the rest of the multiverse is ludicrous. Unless you could gather some massive coalition of gods from all over the planes, The Lady of Pain would just move all the portals and you'd be out of luck. Even if you could get such a huge conglomeration of gods with highly different viewpoints (can you imagine getting... let's say Corellon Larethian, Moradin, Tiamat, and Nerull to cooperate on such a massive scale?) to cut Sigil off and destroy it, why would you want to? Who's to say that the portals won't just vanish without The Lady there anymore? And if they remain, it would create a massive conflict as every power in the multiverse rushed to claim and hold the city. It would be a cataclysm, apocalyptic in scope.
From what I've read of this Union, it sounds rather stupid. Simple altruism doesn't sound like enough to get a bunch of epic level people to be guards. Epic level people are supposed to be a rare sight, how many do you think there are that haven't caught the eye of some deity or powerful organization yet? And even those without the strongest sense of loyaltly can get more from a god than the Mercane can even come close to offering. If you had the choice, would you rather be a proxy of Bahamut... or stand around 8 to 5 in your +10 Anti-Everything Chainmail saying "These are not the modrons we're looking for."... honestly?
Oh yeah, and Jangling Hiter rules.
If we are to look at the ending of Die Vecna Die(and yes, I am very aware of the total aversion/massive discontentment many of you feel about it), she REORDERS the multiverse?? That kind of power is a very clear potential threat to all.
And about the spirit of planescape: I love planar adventures. I like the races, the variety, the ideological conflicts and the like.
But Sigil is not that interesting to me, except to use as a portal.
I have tried earlier here to argue the point about the inability of Sigil to cater to the desires/needs of epic characters and epic adventuring.
I think that the concept of "spirit" of the planescape setting, is quite qrong..because it limits it too much. To me an adventure like Die Vecna Die or Faction Wars, even the Waukeen adventure in Azzagrat, adds to the enjoyment of a planar-based campaign as much as an equally excellent adventure like Fires of Dis, for example.
That some writers do not like the inclusion of some elements of these adventures, makes my point more valid, I think. Because Planescape is not exclusive to writers like Colin McComb or Monte Cook, even though they perhaps are some of the best. Planescape, and planar adventures, have to allow many different writers, and many different perspectives. If something is the "spirit" of Planescape, it has to be that. If you say Planescape is just the Sigil-based work of McComb, Cook and few others, and other stuff is just generic planar adventures, I have to disagree.
Hope I didn`t offend anyone now...seems to be too easy on these boards
Originally posted by Surcus
If the Lady of Pain is so powerful as you all like to claim, she would be a massive threat to any deity,and therefore it COULD be feasible to see a large-scale union of deities with the common goal of destroying her (and Sigil?).
No, she is not, but see later.
Apart from that, a power vacuum in Sigil would be devastating for the multiverse.
Originally posted by Surcus
If we are to look at the ending of Die Vecna Die(and yes, I am very aware of the total aversion/massive discontentment many of you feel about it), she REORDERS the multiverse?? That kind of power is a very clear potential threat to all.
This clearly shows why "Die Vecna Die" was a hastily patched together adventure to justify the rules change in 3e.
The Lady of Pain never used her power outside the cage before. Before this adventure she did not even bend the grass in the outlands.
It is common opinion that the Lady is without power outside the cage.
You should also consider that no one or no thing, apart from the almighty DM, has the power to reshape the multiverse.
Therefore it would not have been possible for the Lady to do this.
Originally posted by Surcus
I have tried earlier here to argue the point about the inability of Sigil to cater to the desires/needs of epic characters and epic adventuring.
Why is that so? Epic may not be the focus of PS, but you can do it without trouble.
Originally posted by Surcus
To me an adventure like Die Vecna Die or Faction Wars, even the Waukeen adventure in Azzagrat, adds to the enjoyment of a planar-based campaign as much as an equally excellent adventure like Fires of Dis, for example.
Faction War and the Waukeen Adventure are very cool. I do not see how PS hinders your enjoyment of these adventures.
Kilamar
I mean, really, what is it that you're looking for in the multiverse that it doesn't have.
I guess it doesn't have ridiculous epic guards and epic merchants lying around the place, but isn't that for the best? I think part of being an epic character is knowing that you can go into a town and sack the whole thing, pretty much on your own. You can wreck havoc--but having a whole town of epic level people gets rid of the epic-ness.
Epic characters should be as the name implies--epic, they should not be normal, there should not be an entire city of them.
End of first rant. On to number two.
It has been said that the Cage is what holds together the multiverse, and I have a hard time seeing a rational disagreement with that statement. What's to keep an infinite number of demons and devils from just coming and sacking the place? I admit, I was too lazy to read all of the arguments going on here--but if you respond with a (logical, plausible, sensible) reason why Sigil shouldn't be used, I will be happy.
Epic characters should be as the name implies--epic, they should not be normal, there should not be an entire city of them.
This is *exactly* the problem with an "Epic City". Epic level characters are epic level not because they have an arbitrarily high (20+) number of levels, they're epic because they are far away and above the levels of ordinary people. If you start all the PCs at level 21, and give every monster, city gaurd, merchant, and peasant 20 levels of various classes, your PC's aren't epic level, they're (effectively) first level. All you've ended up doing is raising all the numbers on everything by proportionate amounts. Moving an epic level campaign to an epic level city isn't moving forward, it's starting over.
It's like watching an episode of Dragonball Z, where the characters summon incredibly high levels of power, only to have their opponents summon equal amounts, leaving them all at the same relative level, only you'd be doing it with every gate gaurd, merchant, and peasant child in the city.
The whole point of playing an epic level character is dealing with your immense power over the "little people" that are all over the place. It's not about what you can beat up, it's about what you do with your influence. You're a 20th level fighter? Yeah, you can beat up the town gaurds. But that's boring.
Originally posted by Surcus
Can the Lady really stop Greater Gods, especially if they are operating from outside the city? I doubt this. If a god like Pelor can reorganise Elysium(as said in Manual of the Planes), then many Greater Powers working together should be able to isolate
Sigil, altering reality or whatever it is they do. I do not think the Lady is all-powerful, though I can easily accept that she has limitless power inside Sigil.
Actually Pelor, nor any other Greater Deity can actually reorganise a planes. They can change their domains at will, but no god has an entire plane as their domain.
But it seems someone, like mrgoat, have some wrong conceptions about Union.
Many in Union are not epic characters. Few merchants have epic skill levels. Many city guards are just high-level. Many ordinary citizens are mid-level, or even commoners. The only requirement for being a citizen of Union, is that they possess wealth enough to be able to live there.
Still, it is an epic city. There is epic magic there, there are alot of epic characters, and epic organizations. Much excitement for an epic character.
Sigil has little of this. The factions are banned after Faction War, few epic characters and challenges in general, proxies/deities forbidden to enter the city(does this include quasi-deities?), and the Lady of Pain has been known to strike down or maze mighty characters for doing things she does not approve of.
The problem with the last thing is that she doesn`t necessarily have to have a reason for doing that that anyone ever understands.
She controls the gates. Does that mean that noone can open a gate without her express permit, or enter the city except through such a gate? Epic characters can use the gate spell quite frequently, if they do not have other devices that could achieve the same effect. They would feel hindered by such rules.
Essentially, if a party of 100th level characters can walk around in Sigil, and then suddenly she decides to close all the gates for a while? They`ll be trapped.
Ok, that was some arguments. To get the full idea of what I am talking about, read the earlier parts of this thread.
About Pelor: The Manual of the Planes states that Pelor, as one of the most powerful deities of the Great Ring, has the ability to alter his plane, Elysium, more than other deities.
But it seems someone, like mrgoat, have some wrong conceptions about Union.
Many in Union are not epic characters. Few merchants have epic skill levels. Many city guards are just high-level. Many ordinary citizens are mid-level, or even commoners. The only requirement for being a citizen of Union, is that they possess wealth enough to be able to live there.
Still, it is an epic city. There is epic magic there, there are alot of epic characters, and epic organizations. Much excitement for an epic character.
Likewise, there's plenty of excitment for epic level characters outside of union, in the infinite planes. City gaurds are almost always no more than 4 levels or so higher than the common residents of the city. Cities that are inhabited primarily by high-level creatures, don't usually have much in the way of gaurds. They have some power structure in place to keep the riff-raff in line. You know why you don't see 20th level gaurds? 'Cause it's just not possible to justify a 20th level fighter who has any reason to sit around playing gaurd duty. Captaining the gaurds, sure, being one, no.
Sigil has little of this. The factions are banned after Faction War,
The lady banned the power structure of factions. There's still plenty of faction-oriented activity going on, it's just not "official" government.
few epic characters and challenges in general,
Wrong. There's plenty of space to make epic challenges in sigil. Here's the kicker: they don't revolve around hurting powerful things. That's not what the setting is about anyway.
proxies/deities forbidden to enter the city(does this include quasi-deities?),
Which makes it even better for epic-level adventures. The good guys and the bad guys can't usually strike directly against each other. They've got to work through intermediaries. Also, yes, the Lady generally bars "quasi-dieties" from Sigil. She bans powers. She bans demi-powers. She generally bans abyssal lords, and the lords of the nine, etc. She bans anyone she pleases, and does so according to certain easily knowable rules.
The problem with the last thing is that she doesn`t necessarily have to have a reason for doing that that anyone ever understands.
*Ahem* Perhaps you didn't read the source material in the second edition setting. She bans those who cause big trouble. The fact that she never really concretely defines how big is one method of controlling the riff-raff and thus, keeping the city intact. It's not a secret. It's well known. She also mazes or flays people that worship her, and Aoskar. That's pretty much it. She could do more though, so I guess those epic level PC's had better be a little bit careful! Don't tell me they managed to live to 20th level without learning how not to **** off the Lady.
She controls the gates. Does that mean that noone can open a gate without her express permit, or enter the city except through such a gate? Epic characters can use the gate spell quite frequently, if they do not have other devices that could achieve the same effect. They would feel hindered by such rules.
Yeah, that means no one can open a gate. No one knows just how much control she has over the gates, but extradimensional travel of all sorts can't pass the bounds of the cage. No teleporting out, no gating out, no dismissals, no gating in friends/fiends, no cubic gates, no wishing yourself in or out. The players don't like it? Tough ****. Epic level stuff gets harder, not easier. Let them learn to deal without that stuff, the way they did when they weren't epic level. C'mon, these characters are supposed to be real powerful, the loss of dimensional travel for a while should be a minor setback. If they're planar, they wouldn't even bat an eyelash.
Essentially, if a party of 100th level characters can walk around in Sigil, and then suddenly she decides to close all the gates for a while? They`ll be trapped.
Yup. Happened in Faction War, though the Lady clearly didn't close the gates long enough to cause any real damage. Did you have a point with that, or was it just a statement? Besides, epic level characters are more than well enough equipped to be self-sustaining for the rest of their lives. It's not like they're going to starve to death. All they've got to do is figure out how to breathe when the air runs out. That shouldn't even phase 100th level characters.
Ok, that was some arguments. To get the full idea of what I am talking about, read the earlier parts of this thread.
They were arguments. They were wrong, but they were arguments nonetheless. I read the rest of the thread too, most of the people defending Union are also wrong.
About Pelor: The Manual of the Planes states that Pelor, as one of the most powerful deities of the Great Ring, has the ability to alter his plane, Elysium, more than other deities.
The Manual of the Planes is Wrong about Pelor. It's just one of many, many things that the Manual of the Planes got wrong, if you're assuming it's related to the Planescape setting. It's not. Pelor can do whatever he wants with his realm, but the other major dieties that have realms in Elysium might take offense to his reordering of the entire plane. I could come up with at least a dozen other major powers that have realms in Elysium.
The Manual of the Planes wrong?? How can you say that? This is an official source, after all. I know someone here would say it is not in the "spirit" of Planescape, but it is not just meant for Planescape.
I find after reading my last post and your counterarguments that I didnt define properly what I mean is epic. A character that has improved his skills to beyond 20 levels wants to control his life most of all, at least in my experience. He doesn`t necessarily want to become a famous character. Not necessarily to be a leader either. Someone who just wants to be skilled enough to protect his city or world from an invasion of demons or dragons. He might just want to serve as a city guard once in a while.
I have a couple of epic characters that has no problem with serving as a guard in-between their adventures.
The problems with Sigil for an epic campaign is just this: Lack of possibility to decide a destiny for himself. The character(s) is bound to follow the various edicts of the lady, and her portals.
As for mazing those who make big trouble: Epic characters ARE big trouble. An epic spell can change the world, potentially, and thereby all epic spellcasters are big trouble. Many epic warriortypes can defeat armies and organisations, at least small ones.
Planar campaigning is different. Challenging, the planes are, and much fun, excitement and challenges have been wrought by my epic campaign. In my campaign, the prime world of the PCs has been destroyed, and they are adventuring mostly on the planes.
One of my PCs is a quasi-deity, however, and that should make him lose access to Sigil(he is an einherjar). Or perhaps an einherjar is not a quasi-deity?
Epic campaigns are about possibilities. To make players play characters that can do things "lesser" beings never could hope for. To have PCs that can fulfill their fullest desires, even if that is to be city guard of the Mercane City of Union.
May I interest you in a very rare original draft? Yes, the binding is an unusual sort of leather isn't it?
(;))
Originally posted by Surcus
The problems with Sigil for an epic campaign is just this: Lack of possibility to decide a destiny for himself. The character(s) is bound to follow the various edicts of the lady, and her portals.
As for mazing those who make big trouble: Epic characters ARE big trouble. An epic spell can change the world, potentially, and thereby all epic spellcasters are big trouble. Many epic warriortypes can defeat armies and organisations, at least small ones.
It isn't exactly like Her Dread Majesty walks around all the time making edicts. Only on those rare occasions when something needs to be done in the best interests of Sigil on a large scale such as The Great Upheaval which placed the last group of factions into power and saw the deaths of the ideology of many of the lesser factions in Sigil, or the deaths on a massive scale of the members of many factions. (there's a bit of dark surrounding how the Free League swelled to several million members in the wake of that proclamation and shrank in the years prior down to the tens of thousands. They just... died... But I can sell you the dark of it...)
Lack of possibility to decide a destiny for yourself? BS, unless you do something stupid like directly challange The Lady or attempt to bring harm to Sigil or the Dabus, there's no reason you can't do nearly anything you like within Sigil so long as your actions don't lead to one of the above scenarios.
And contrary to what you mentioned above, Proxies are allowed into Sigil, and there's a number of them around. Namely Unity-Of-Rings, a proxy of Tyr, and Fell the fallen Dabus. (who depending on who you ask for the dark of it, he's a proxy of Aoskar... except Aoskar is dead and floating on the Astral pierced through with blades... care to purchase a portal key to view it?).
Archfiends aren't allowed into Sigil because of their status as quasi-powers in a few cases, or simply for the ramifications of letting such a powerful fiend into Sigil If a noble Baatezu, or even one of the Lords of the 9 entered Sigil, the Tanar'ri in the city would riot, not to mention some of the Celestials or even a few proxies. It would cause too much turmoil in the city, and so for them the portals remain barred.
And now what defines an 'Epic Organization' the catch phrase as far as I'm concerned is devoid of value other than to sound nifty. How are they different from the way an 'Epic' character would operate within a sect or Faction within Sigil? Fighting for a philosophy or a multiversal 'truth' as they see it isn't worthy for a goal for a character once they hit the magic number of level 21?
Even aside from the Factions and the sects, there are other groups within Sigil such as the Guild of Doorsnoops which maps and investigates the portals of The Lady; the Planewalkers Guild which doesn't sound very different from the Planar Cartographic Society in the Epic Level Handbook except that its been around longer and has a history behind it other than the Epic Level tagged latter; on top of that, Sigil has any number of Golden Lords of the Nobles District of The Lady's Ward who have in their hands the wealth of emperors. Wealth to make the Mercanes pale. Jeremo the Natterer of The Palace of the Jester, Factol of the Ring-Givers would match up against any number of characters in Union or virtually anywhere else simply in terms of personal wealth.
Originally posted by FriendlyFiend
My apologies dear ... er ... sir ... er ... madam ... ?? Perhaps I can make some small recompense by offering a generous discount? No? Perhaps the monkey's paw as well? :D
*snort* "Bah! I'm going to go back to the Fortunes Wheel and admire my own reflection now. Maybe hire some Bleakerniks to sing outside Zadara the Titan's mansion..."
...*whispers out of view* "Sell the paw to some ignorant prime and let me know what happens, it should be good to watch. And how many 'Heads of Vecna' have you managed to sell this week through secondary sellers? Got to go, don't want anyone to think we don't hate each other...." *dashes off with lackeys in tow*
The Manual of the Planes wrong?? How can you say that? This is an official source, after all.
Yeah, it's wrong. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last time that an official source is wrong. If they printed a story about Bast beating up Odin with one hand tied behind his back, they'd be wrong. It's no so tough to believe that the authors made a mistake. Just use your head when you read this stuff. "Pelor rearranged Elysium!?" It's not even close to believeable. Besides, MOTP isn't intended to replace Planescape.
Your epic level characters, as the most beautiful Lady Shemeska has already stated (and I don't reccomend you ignore her), can do quite a lot in Sigil. As long as "defining their destiny" doesn't include "harming Sigil".
Epic characters ARE big trouble. An epic spell can change the world, potentially, and thereby all epic spellcasters are big trouble. Many epic warriortypes can defeat armies and organisations, at least small ones.
Gee, I guess they'd better use some discretion when they're in Sigil. There's non-epic spells that could draw Her Dread Majesty's ire too. Epic level characters just have to use the same tiny smattering of common sense that regular characters need to while in Sigil.
I think maybe I don't know what you mean by "Quasi-Diety". Powers great and small can't enter, demipowers generally can't, proxies can. Proxies know better than to pike off the Lady anyway. They didn't get to be proxies by being dumb.
Anyway, I think we're looking at this from different sides. My game started planar, yours seems to have started prime. When you get right down to it, Sigil does a pretty darn good job holding the multiverse together, and the Lady does a pretty darn good job holding Sigil together. No matter how powerful characters get, there's always going to be things they can't do. Sending the multiverse into a big state of upheaval may be among the possibilities, but the veritable apocalypse that screwing up Sigil would bring isn't. There's always limits on possibilities.
And in Planescape, it's all about belief, not the size of your sword or the power of your spell.
Originally posted by Surcus
The problems with Sigil for an epic campaign is just this: Lack of possibility to decide a destiny for himself. The character(s) is bound to follow the various edicts of the lady, and her portals.
Most people call that following the laws of the city. The fact that for once the laws of the city has an enforcer that's *capable* of dealing with high level defiance shouldn't be a problem. Unless the point of an epic level campaign for you is having the ability to tell an entire city's council to shove it. It seems that you're objecting mostly to the fact that it's d**ned difficult to tell Her where to shove it.
The MOTP is NOT Planescape. It's extremely important to keep this in mind. They are different cosmologies entirely, I mean, just look at the inner planes for crying out loud. While I prefer a lot of the 3rd edition material on the planes, just as much I throw out the window to the older stuff. It's important to keep in mind that right now the relationship between Planescape and the rest of the canon is not the same as it was. It used to be the definitive thing on the planes, now it's only definitive for itself.
And as far as Epic characters go, there ARE epic characters in Sigil, if you go by either over 20 levels or hit dice. Prime examples include the ex factol of the Dustmen, Skall. His ambitions however got rather hefty near the end and off to the mazes he went. Though I have heard some chant that some Dusties are claiming to have seem him wandering the halls of the Mortuary...
Lothar the Master of the Bones is extremely high level, somewhere around a level 30 cleric of the abstract concept of Death. And he above all others has been able to keep his own personal ambitions active while not so much as trodding on the hem of The Lady's robe.
Jeremo The Natterer, factol of the Ring-Givers is epic or very close to it as well. And he's bound for great things, so long as the boy knows his place, with me, and with another Lady...
Then there's me *grins* Not quite 'epic' by your definitions of level, etc, but I assure you my pull in Sigil outstrips most, and if I have my way, that most will be all.
First of all mrgoat, I'm flattered you think so much of me. *preens* Mention my name next time you're in the Fortunes Wheel in Sigil, you'll get treated like royalty...
But of course, fair lady. Alas, I fear revealing too much about myself in such a popular establishment as Fortune's Wheel might bring far too much undue attention to me and my machinations in Sigil, hence the need for a pseudonym here. Perhaps best to be nice to everyone in Fortune's Wheel, one never knows who I might be and what I might know.
When I first read the Union thing in the ELH, I thought 'Wow! Cool, an epic city/demiplane!', but after looking over all these good points about Union not maiing sense, i realize it... well... doesn't make sense. OK, now I'm done. What was the original point of this topic again?
I was that bum on the street asking for some change :D .
Just because I also happen to be an epic-level proxy doesn't mean I don't like to go back to my roots sometimes.
Just because I also happen to be an epic-level proxy doesn't mean I don't like to go back to my roots sometimes
Even an epic level character can manage to wine and wench away his last coin . . . . *sings "Hey brother, can you spare a di~me . . ."* There are no certainties in the life of an adventurer and even an epic bubber needs a break every now and again.
As to the whole Union thing, if it works for you, great. If it doesn't, it likely never will no matter how how much chocolate you coat the dust mephit in. Same thing with Sigil. Many people were turned off because they didn't like Sigil. Although why that would be since its got more pubs than Dionysus got grapes . . . and you don't have to worry so much about that whole bacchae thing. Union also has overpriced ale. That just don't sit too well with some folks. I like my ale stout and cheap. So its Sigil all the way for me.
Mach.
Epic Level Drunk.
Cavorting the planes, one pub at a time.
IMC, I have to continue using Union, though as my players have a house in Sigil, they will never be that far away...and I hope to be able to have a real adventure in the city sometime.
And this from a guy who was never a real big PS fan
Why Union hasn't/isn't taken over by either celestials, fiends, or anyone else.
Ok you've all made wonderful arguments but most of you have never stopped to think about this part of your arguments. Yes yes, Union has epic level characters, yes yes they would be able to smite a crap load of would be conquerers... Thats not my point... The reason the "would-be conquerers" would try to conquer Union is for its abundance in portals. Now, has anyone ever stopped to think... Wait a second... who runs these portals? Who makes sure they go where they go and etc? AKHA! A clue! (Sorry sarcasm always kicks in lol) Wonderfully powerful individuals. So... who is needed to keep those portals running? Well, those wonderfully powerful individuals... ahem... anyone see my point? Or am I just sounding like an addle-coved leatherhead? To make my point blunt, Union hasnt been conquered yet, in its short life span, because of the epic level characters guarding it, because the portals are run by those epic level people and killing them would not keep those wonderful gates running, and because ITS ONLY 80 YEARS OLD.... this just means no attempt has been made yet to take it over
That means yet, this could mean that it does... But again it would kind of seem redundant to take over a city if its portals stop working because the wonderful all powerful wizards arent keeping em nice and fresh for us... and you have an all powerful wizard in your employ WHY THE HELL GO TAKE SIGIL OVER!!! You could make your own homemade portals *Sobs* and thats just beautiful hehe. I think I made my point as best as I could on this section.... Let us go forth!Concept of Union,
First of all you cant get an uber sword+90 of diety slaying in Sigil... You can commision it of course... at a price and it is never gold
Anyone that can make that probably will make you go through hell, back, to the abyss, back, to god knows elsewhere, and then to some even scarier places (if thats even possible)... So its not an easy thing. As for epic level community... Well they arent all epic levels, there are a bunch given. The wonderful planescape setting has infinite variety and wonderfully powerful individuals... so it is entirely possible that a bunch could congregate into one city aka Union. While you may not like it, it is possible and to say otherwise would be saying the Planescape setting does not have a bunch of powerful individuals, which it does and you now it so pike it berk!
I like Union because it is a city which has powerful inhabitants (it is logical), and yet it is not as mysterious as Sigil and the wonderful Lady. Before you burst out in flames and self-barbaque yourself finish reading my post, you will notice a bunch of other stuff hehe. Union is a gathering for the filthy rich and powerful. Yes some of the guards are epic, just think of them as adventurers taking a break and doing something to pay the bills. The powerful organizations could have come to Union because they felt they were afraid of the lady, and come on she is scary (hell dieties dont take her lightly). Union is a good alternative, its run by Mercanes, planars out for your money hehe, and its relatively as safe as Union. The Sentinels do a great job of scarying the crap out of people out to break the law. Its been a big investment by the Mercanes, who have attracted many customers... Its still in its testing phase because its still really young, hell its a baby, as planar cities go.
To sum this section up, I like the idea of Union and its powerful inhabitants and I do not believe its cheapening "epicness." Its just showing those wonderful epic characters "You arent alone, not even by a long shot." Makes them more humble, which is a good thing cause you can scare em off with 1st level commoners MUAHAH (I fooled em once into believing a 1st level aristocrat was in fact a 30th wizard, their expressions on their face when their enemy hit him once was priceless). Thats just a thought... And besides Union is a city of coin in the planes, I like that, money is wonderful... oh yes, before I forget, Epic level characters, they can be bought and paid... some cant but a bunch can... A wizard that has gotten powerful and needs money to pay for his experiments... there you go :P Adventurers can be persuaded with money and magical items all the time. Those magical items might allow them to achieve their other goals, such as nation building, evil smiting, good vanquishing, your pick.
On to Sigil,
First I love Sigil because its a scary place and one of much mystery. Its a great place for all kind of adventures, even epic ones. As a city goes its far more important than Union, firstly Sigil is the supposed center of the multi-verse... I doubt Union can top that. Portals open up and close up in Sigil constantly... you could be carrying the key to a portal in your pocket... heck that unfinished cheese could be a key... you never know... that is what makes Sigil amazing... the possibilities... Epic adventures are definately possible in Sigil. The epic characters either would have to take an indirect approach to vanquishing their enemies (and or accomplishing their goals), or just not p*ss off the lady. Personally, I've only seen the lady once... and *sobs* my friend had the bright idea of throwing a pale of water on her face... (he was a very confused halfling) Alas, *sobs* that is the last time we ever saw him... Poor Penny-wise... I think I actually saw the lady with a very unhappy frown on her face... hehe. Anyway, I digress... I apologize... Sigil is a city of nearly infinite possibility, unlike Union... I believe each fills a certain niche that is needed in planescape... One of wonder and amazement, and the other of power and wealth. Both Sigil and Union are very large and powerful cities... While many of you planars out there might not like the concept of Union that much, you nearly all like Sigil. Hey where you hang out is your choice... I love em all.
Grrr... I forgot half my argument now... rattled my bone-box too much... Oh yes...
Faction wars = just plain bad in my book. I didnt like the way they changed everything that was soooooo peeerrrty... My opinion, unchangable just like most of yours out there.
Remember your campaign is whatever you like most, if you are the stupid hack-n-slash adventurer so be it (sometimes a hack-n-slash can be fun but not all the time), if you like intrigue so be it... Have fun in whatever setting you want.
I really cant remember everything else I wanted to say... Anyway it probably was as moronic yet brilliant as all my previous junk
Maybe some garnish would make me remember... after all jink can go a long way. Oh yes... I think I've made everyone mad, so I am perfectly prepared for severe verbal... errr.. text bashing... I am prepared so dont hold back lolOriginally posted by Amoun
Now, has anyone ever stopped to think... Wait a second... who runs these portals? Who makes sure they go where they go and etc? AKHA! A clue! (Sorry sarcasm always kicks in lol) Wonderfully powerful individuals. So... who is needed to keep those portals running?
Choose you favourite XYZ Greater God, that will do.
Kilamar
Portals are a rare thing indeed, more a quirk of the planes and not simply created at the drop of a hat, epic level caster or not, in my view. That's what makes Sigil such the gleaming jewel of the planes that it is. Union can't compare in number or utility of portals.
*goes back to lunch with Ramander the Wise 'the master of portals' ... silly berk that he is.*
Originally posted by Amoun
err. I actually fail to see the point in your statement.. please clarify..
That powerful agressors do not need the inhabitants of Union to maintain the portals.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
As an ethereal demiplane I find it hard to believe many dieties would be acting so directly on it. Normally they don't do much outside of their own domains on a given plane, or on the prime worlds that support them by worship. That's what proxies are for.
Ok, they would not go themselves, but their proxies would do it and if they are not powerful enough they would use their might through the proxies.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
For a greater power to sweep in to control portals, such as in Union it then begs the question, why not simply ignore union and create their own portals for themselves on their own plane for their followers to use?
If it were that easy to create a planar bus-station with portals to anyplace, don´t you think we would have more cities like Sigil?
The fact that there are not any (except Union), seems to hint at a fundamental law of the multiverse that even powers can create only a limited number of interplanar portals in close proximity to each other.
For the portals to work there must be another portal in the "Destination" place, which is linked with the portals in the city. That fact considerably limits the number of destinations reachable from Union (as opposed to Sigil, which virtually reaches anywhere).
The mercanes control the linking-opening of the three portals. If conditions are not safe on both locations (Union-Destination) prior to the linking, the portals are not opened at all, or shutdown inmediatly.
Only the mercanes know how to operate the portals. And they need a powerful artifact to operate it. The portals are useless to an invading army if they don't know how to operate the portals.
Even if the city fails to a sudden assault by overwhelming epic hordes of epic fiends & Archdevils, the Mercanes can always scape from Union or destroy the portals, thus, making the assault effortless.
Is convenient to remember that Union's portals are limited, artificial and lead to specific and limited destinations, while Sigil portals are infinite, natural, and lead everywhere in the multiverse.
So everyone relaxe and look at the big picture. Anyone associated with the PS3E should not rule out any of the new material no matter if its in the Epic Handbook Manual of the Planes or even Dragon Magizine.
Oh and one other thing the Lady aint all powerful thats been proven and no one is messing with the City of Brass with the Grand Sultan still on the Charcoal Throne.
Heh
Ignatz
And within Sigl, the Lady is all-powerful. What do you mean that it's been proven otherwise?
Good point
Dont get me wrong I love Sigil and Planescape
Ignatz
It is possible that a city like Union could exist and survive (at least for a while). Its just really a matter of opinion and preferance whether to use the city or not. So lets stop hacking at each other :P Alas at least this blood will stop chattering his bone-box.. but dont get me wrong if ya want to keep chattering go ahead... a good way to occupy my hours of boredom.Troubling thought is it not.
I had a DM (don't we all) who ran Planescape and he based all his adventures out of Sigil, like many others do. There was just one problem he was the WORST DM I have every seen or heard of. He ruined Sigil for both myself and the group (hence, we don't play with him anymore). As such I will NEVER play in that city again and I refuse to even go near that damn city.
So I use Union and replace it with Sigil. Sigil never exists in my game and the Lady can maze herself.
Sorry I'm venting
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Once you get past the street thugs, the less-than-welcoming ruler, the faction battles, fiend populations, barmies on the loose, and sewer system from hell (sometimes literally), it's not a bad place to live.
*emotional sniff and wipes away a tear* Well said Council Chairwoman Rhys... *sighs*I do so love to call Sigil home...
Oh, you should add a, 'once you get over arrogant, overbearing Titan named Zadara' to that list too, as one of the bad things to go with all that good stuff you listed.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder:
Council-Chairwoman Rhys
Hey, the in-game Rhys may be council-chairwoman, but the multiverse is telling this tiefling that if you don't give me my proper title, I will have no choice but to kick you from here to Gehenna.
That's gotta be one awful DM to do all that in one campaign.
This all happened in 2nd edition of course and this "adventure" (I use the term loosely) was the last straw in the nightmare I blocked out of my memory to avoid going insane. This didn't happen in Sigil BUT is an example of what he did.
We had been hired by a good (I when I say good I mean he knew his stuff) merchant who wanted use to go to Dis and locate a minor non-magical artifact. When we discovered it we were to come back and tell him were it was BUT if we could we were to "liberate" it form its holding place. Okay, no big deal when all knew we were being used and that we were cannon fodder (in Sigil that happens ALOT). So we got paid half up front (I forget excalty how much) and went off on are merry way.
So off we went to the portal town to go to the 9 Hells (the protals in Sigil were down, the Lady knows why) and once we got there the "mayor" of sorts wanted a bribe to allow us to go throught the portal, which none of use complained about since that happens alot. So when asked the mayor rattles off a number and as we add up the amount we realize were off by 100GP (now were 1st Level Characters with no wealth) so we freak, what are we to do. Well we decided to look for work on the side to get the money, no adventuring jobs. We figure lets wait until Sigils portals open. We find out there closed for a year.
Do you want to know how we earned the money?
-the two fighters got jobs as blacksmiths
-the cleric got a job as a minor healer
-I a Psionic said screw it and became a person of the street so to speak.
I took 2 MONTHS to earn the money needed to bribe the damn mayor.
One time (Damn I sound like I'm related band camp stories) we were playing in Sigil (tenth Level) and we had to get mazed on purpose for some stupid quest for a Holy sword that turn out to be a rusty sword that someone put a permanency and light on it. We quested for god knows how long for that stupid thing and of course after that we had to get out of the maze.
These are just some small examples of the crap that idiot put use though.
Crafty sod though... His sword, almost universally regarded as a near artifact level weapon and likely intelligent since when he fought it appeared as if the sword itself moved him, telling him where to slash and parry, the opposite of how it normally is for a swordsman. *grin* No, Lightbringer was simply a +1 weapon with a permenant light spell cast upon it. Timlin was simply that good of a swordsman and allowed everyone around him to think it was simply due to his sword, and not his actual skill. A smart, smart, deliciously devious move on his part to allow everyone who might challange him to underestimate his ability.
And as far as being a Paladin? *laughs* Far from it. Timlin was his own man, he didn't go around serving laughable powers and doing good for the sake of good. *rolls eyes at the very idea* Of course I can see how legends of him and his faction, and his sword especially, might evolve and warp over the years. Certainly that was the reason why once his maze was located, no less than two factions lusted after entering and recovering his sword.
Sad fact is, he killed most of the ones sent in to steal his sword. They certainly had no intent of releasing Timlin. All they wanted was his sword. However Timlin, not aged a day older since his mazing over 1000 years prior, managed to get from his would be thieves of Lightbringer, the key to, and location of the one portal out of his maze. And he took it, stepping out into a Sigil that had largely forgotten him, and his faction's philosophy.
I hear that Timlin stepped into the first portal out of the City of Doors, not wishing to tempt his luck versus the shadow of The Lady should she be angered by his release or escape from the maze she had condemned him to so long ago.
Makes you wonder where he is now, what he might know, and what he's up to. Doesn't it? Now take a seat, palm over some jink or something a bit more than simply that, and listen to me spill the dark of it...
The adventure itself is quite well written IMNSHO, however it really sounds like the DM who ran you through it was neither a competant DM, nor did he have even a basic grasp of the themes, feel, or proper way of running a Planescape game.
Even the best material can be butchered by an incompetant DM, so please don't reject that adventure outright. It does the original authors a disservice.
I feel the need to defend that adventure because it led to so much good stuff in my continuing planescape campaigns...
After he got out, he had the group of barmy planeswalkers that freed him take him to the Infinite Staircase they meantioned. There, he met with the Planeswalkers Guild and wooed them with certain ideas, getting them to give him some help restarting his faction. 'Course, he began to get pushy and caused the fast-growing Illuminated to get very angry with the Planeswalkers. The Guild then told him he'd have to leave.
He did, and the three groups were on bad terms for a very long time... Until some friends of all three group leaders got them to sit down and realize they were perfect allies...
So Green Marvent, Vartus Timlin, and (those other two) began to help eachother, and all three moved themselves into Sigil at the factions' moment of weakness, using a cure they purchased from some adventurers for the Iron Shadow, a philosophic disease which someone made its way into the cage.
Because of the way they aided the city, the factions have not forcibly tried to remove them, though they have not made them feel welcome. Marvent has actually said on numerous occassions that the Lady allowed the disease into the city specifically for them to cure... Timlin adding that the old factions should be very careful, as they are already on their way out.......
So yeah. I like that module. You had a bad DM.
I'd suggest you go back and read through the adventure again. It's within the Well of Worlds module.
I don't have the module he did that is why I didn't know it was a published adventure.
The adventure itself is quite well written IMNSHO, however it really sounds like the DM who ran you through it was neither a competant DM, nor did he have even a basic grasp of the themes, feel, or proper way of running a Planescape game.
Probably both. To defend him (even though it pains me) he was one of those DM's who was all book knowledge and didn't have the creative mind to put the pieces together.
Go Eata Pita
You had a bad DM.
Yeap, I completely argee HE is why I will never EVER go to that damn city again. I have nothing againist the city (yes, I do) but ever time I think about Sigil memories of those *cough* adventures come to mind.
Oh and some good did come of that adventure I got to flash the Lady and then I took that rusty sword and shoved it down the person who order that adventure's throat (I died, but it was well worth it).
*the elegantly dressed and groomed fiend takes Ramander aside, out of earshot, and whispers to him* 'I'll accept my cut of your portal profits for the past month now, after all, you've been safe from Her Serenity thus far, and my protection does not come cheap or granted at whimsy. But all that aside, the compliment earlier was most appreciated.' *preens*
"Of course," he says smoothly, "I owe you quite a bit for your protection. Your cut of the portal profits is already being delivered, as per our earlier agreement."
He watches Shemeska for a moment with a quiet smile before the smile slowly widens across his face. "And now, most beautiful of all fiends, may I buy you a drink?"
(blaugh, my players have to come here and pick on me in character too :P heh)
Aaaanyways, where the heck was this thread before it got derailed by random fun little RP?
Anyway, we seemed to be ranting about the pointlessness of Union, followed by a discussion on Timlin and his would-be faction.
As yes, Union/Sigil and factions...
And yeah, maybe there are a bunch of epic level characters there, but that doesn't matter. There are millions of demons and devils and the generals of the Blood wars wouldn't even flinch sending in huge forces just as cannon fodder. They do it everyday for the Blood Wars.
But, as I said in my previous post, I think that's the direction Union City should go. It's only 80 years old, a brief second to an immortal. Perhaps only now have they had time to notice the place. Pretty soon, the Mercanes will see the folly of creating a Sigil-like place as the demons begin pouring through the gates. The Devils, not to lose footing in the Blood War, soon follow suit and the whole place erupts into chaos until some power steps in to sort the whole thing out... which might anger another power... and so on and so on.
Every time PCs get to Union city, it's a whole new ballgame with someone else in charge... for a while... Doesn't that just add a whole new element to the name of the place: Union City.
Then the place would make sense. That's why all the people there are epic level. They have to be just to stay alive. I could see a 20+ level shop keeper in a town where one day you have to trade with Demons who've just taken over the city and the next a couple of Celestials that have just cleared out all the demons. Even the epic level Guards would be nessesary to protect low-level merchants... that is if those merchants are rich enough to afford epic level guards...
Personally, that's the only way I could justify such a place on the planes.
I still support Union, of course, but I have become much more aware of the opposing arguments, after running many more planar adventures for my players.
But I guess this isnt really about Union, but a way to fit it into the cosmology of Planescape 2e. If you disregard that, Union can of course stand for itself in a world without the Blood War and the old ways of managing the Outer Planes.
But ok, I can still try to defend Union in a planar system that is vaguely based on Sigil, the Blood War and etc: Union is an unattached demiplane, which means, as well as I have got out of the 3e rules, that it cant be accessed by any normal spell, like Plane shift, Astral spell, etc, even Gate, as all of these demand access to the Astral to function. That leaves artificial portals to the city, as those three on the islands(Planar Gate, Material Gate, Staircase Gate) and a few others. All of these are heavily guarded, and I doubt that demons, devils, daemons or the like would get easy access to these gates, but of course it is possible. Union is still not a place where everyone can go, but since it caters so much to the needs of epic-level characters, at least more than Sigil, it is interesting. Though after the introduction of Planar Handbook and the new description of Sigil there, this changed somewhat.
By the way, as I have briefly mentioned in my former arguments, why are so many cities untouched by the Blood War, even if they do possess wealth, magic and a plethora of(or even just one or two more relevant) portals? Not only the major metropolises like Tu`narath and City of Brass/Glass, but also gatetowns and the like, as well as locations like Evergold and the Eternal Marketplace?
How powerful are these hordes of the Abyss and the Nine Hells, even coupled with daemon mercenariess? Can they challenge and defeat entire races on their native plane, like githyanki? Can they defeat gods?
Ok, that is it for now.
By the way, as I have briefly mentioned in my former arguments, why are so many cities untouched by the Blood War, even if they do possess wealth, magic and a plethora of(or even just one or two more relevant) portals? Not only the major metropolises like Tu`narath and City of Brass/Glass, but also gatetowns and the like, as well as locations like Evergold and the Eternal Marketplace?
Wealth is largely meaningless for if the Blood War would touch them or not. It's position and strategic relevance; portals or gates that hold relevance to either side in the War. Tunarath is entirely neutral with respect to the Blood War in any use, plus any war there would be incredibly costly and almost certainly it would invoke the wrath of the The Guardian of Dead Gods. And that's not something that likely the fiends would consider worth it, especially when the city has no intrinsic worth to them. The inner planar cities are similar, their cost doesn't make them worth anything they might have to offer. They're targets for gaining political influence within, not for outright military conquest.
Union, by virtue of the gates it has, makes itself a target.
Gatetowns do, at infrequent intervals, become targets for one fiendish army or another. It's not often, but it has happened. The only problem with that though is that if you march a fiendish army into one of the lower planar gatetowns, the entire town is likely to shift into that plane, destroying any future worth the town might have to you outside of the immediate military advantage of holding it. They're all one trick ponies, and the fiends are again, more likely to hold political control, sometimes direct political control, over the gatetowns leading to the various lower planes.
How powerful are these hordes of the Abyss and the Nine Hells, even coupled with daemon mercenariess? Can they challenge and defeat entire races on their native plane, like githyanki? Can they defeat gods?
Yes, they're that powerful. Entire worlds on the prime material have been rendered lifeless by spillovers from the Blood War. If the fiends put their minds to it they could eradicate entire races from existance, though they would normally be unlikely to take the time and effort to divert the required forces away from the normal flow of the War Eternal to do so.
And yes, they could defeat gods. Normally true deities do not take part in the Blood War, they haven't since the very early days of the War. During that period of time, gods openly fought on one side or the other, till a deity of chaos simply died as their divine essence suddenly, spectacularly and irreversibly fragmented into nothing. All of the deities taking part in the Blood War paused and realized that something similar was also happening to them as well, albeit slightly slower. In horror they withdrew their efforts and ceased their interference, and in turn the damage to their own divine essences halted.
The exact reason for this is unknown, but it is thought that the fiends, either one group of them (the 'loths probably) or all of them, grew tired of deific interference in their Blood War, and began a campaign of wholesale, genocidal slaughter against the mortal worshippers of each and every deity taking part in the Blood War. Regardless though, the message was heard and gods no longer interfere in the Blood War.
And beyond this, on their own planes, the fiends largely hold the cards when it comes to fiend vs deity conflict. It rarely comes to any real conflict since the fiends and deities largely leave one another alone (based on past experiences), but for instance, Levistus the Lord of the 5th of Baator is currently at war with both Set and Sekolah at the same time, regarding the size of each of those deity's divine domains within Levistus' entire layer of Stygia. Ever so slowly, Set's domain has been shrinking over the course of the conflict.
While it's not a 'fiends will always win' thing at all, the fiends are certainly capable of taking down deities, and they have in the past. It's just rarely an issue since gods and the fiends tend to mutually not bother one another; their aims and goals are largely divergent so no need to mess with the others.
I guess there are ways for demons/devils to enter Union en masse, but it wont be easy, especially since the shifting of the portals most likely are supervised not only by mercanes, but also platoons of Union Sentinels.
I think other cities or locations would be far more popular. But really...
if demons/devils have unlimited with forces, why arent they everywhere? Why arent they in control of every major highway (like the Infinite Staircase) that could conceivably reach the plane(s) of the opposing side, every magical source that could aid their cause, and so on?
On Oerth the Crook of Rao could banish all demons(if not all evil outsiders?) from the world and make them unable to enter the world again. Couldn`t such items exist in Union, if not superior versions? I think it unlikely that it is impossible to resist such creatures, although I have to admit that some sources at least might agree with you in this, if you interpret them with a small amount of goodwill (like Faces of Evil, or even the original Monstrous Compendium in 2e).
Also...I realise you all are Planescape fans here. But Planescape can be many things, not only Sigil. I like many things about the "setting", most of the planes(even the vastly unpopular and unnecessary plane of Gehenna), sects, most of the rules, planar connections(i.e. that a cleric in Seven Heavens can have relations/contacts in
Planar campaigns, even more epic planar ones, need immense opportunities.
Epic characters of certain levels are able to change things. Even major things. But Sigil is more a stabilising factor in the planes, as I see it. It, and its Lady of Pain, is a conservating force that makes major change unlikely or impossible, unless it originates from there, that is.
I just cannot understand this argument. Sigil is the ultimate place for epic level characters. Truthfully I can think of no other place in all of rpg that is so ripe for powerful PCs.
What does Sigil not have? It has gates to everywhere in the multiverse. It has some of the most powerful and influencial individuals and organizations anywhere. Any and all magic items and artifacts regularly pass through the city of doors in trade.
I just don't understand the arguments against it. On one side you say that Sigil doesn't offer a 'cool off place' for epic level PCs because of all the upheaval like the recent Faction War, but on the other hand you claim the place is far to stabe and unchangable because of the Lady.
I can't see why epic level PCs would have a problem with the Lady. She only has one rule: Sigil belongs to her. Anything else is fine. She doesn't care about a robbery here or a murder there. She only cares about the safety of the city. She is the least invasive form of government in all the multiverse. If epic PCs have a huge problem with the Lady, then why wouldn't they have a problem with the Mercanes and their 17+ level guards? The Lady doesn't have guards sitting at every portal. The Mercanes sounds as though they are far more restricting than the Lady.
What exactly do your epic level PCs want to accomplish that can't be done in Sigil. The only thing you can't do in Sigil is 1) Try to overthrow the Lady, 2) Try to worship the Lady, and 3) Try to destroy massive portions of the city. Are any of your epic PCs wanting to do this?
I can understand if you simply don't like the flavor of the city. Everyone is entittled to preference. I would take Oerth over Toril any day of the week, that's just me. If that is the case, just say it. However, I find any logical argument that puts Union City above Sigil for purposes of running epic level campaigns is just flawed and goes against everything that is canon, not just for PS, but all D&D in general. Sigil has massive amounts of material written about it and infinite possibilites. Union city has one poorly written write up that I know of. There simply is no comparrison between the two.
But then, this is just my opinion. You are right, this is a PS board and I am a PS fan. I get more heated up when people start talking smack about Sigil than I do about religion and politics, so please don't take any of this personally.
Anyway, as I said, I still see myself as a fan of Planescape. I love the planes, always have, and liked all books detailing them further. But they do not need Sigil to make them playable or interesting. And, no, my players didnt try to worship or challenge the lady, much. But perhaps that is because they already feel the hopelessness of it all.
I`ve played through most of the planescape adventures, and liked them all. DVD and other related adventures were nice too. According to DVD, the Lady reorganises the multiverse and thereby affects things far beyond Sigil. If she can do that whenever she feels like, I can easily see major players of the multiverse band together to fight her power. She seems to me as an unfallible overpower, and that, I feel, was the flaw of 2e Planescape...creating creatures like that, and always making clear things that could not be changed.
2. Explicating the Lady of Pain to that degree was, I think, the major flaw of Die Vecna Die, and a lot of us consider it to be uncanonical for that reason (among several other good reasons that I don't feel like going into right now).
The Lady of Pain should not be an obtrusive force. The Planescape boxed set recommended she only show up in person, at most, once. Ever. The PCs shouldn't even know for sure that she's real unless they do something incredibly stupid. Things should not get to the point where they consider her an adversary. She's not an NPC; she's just a symbol, and very, very, very rarely she's a behind-the-scenes plot device.
I vehemently disagree with the notion that she can affect anything beyond Sigil. Maybe she can, but the PCs shouldn't ever know that. I think it's much more interesting if the Lady doesn't appear infalliable, especially because, in the game books, she's not - the seals on Sigil aren't perfect, and occasionally things slip through. Sigil may not be the perfect defense some believe. I think there's a little more space for tension in adventures.
There are plenty of ways they can change the face of Sigil without upsetting the Lady; as long as they don't try to claim the city as their personal fief (as Darkwood and the Expansionist factol did), they don't destroy large portions of it (as a Blood War army once did), and they don't build a temple in her honor, they should be okay.
I agree with Inarus that the mercanes of Union are far more obtrusive, with their swarms of epic cops and their need to maximize the city's profit. Union exists just to be something that even epic characters can't mess with; it exists so that the mercanes can make money. A group of PCs might think it makes an awesome stronghold, but the moment they start hurting the mercanes' bottom line (or a new client comes along with a better offer) they're out of there.
Some can read a single good accessory, like Planes of Chaos or even PS1, or an adventure like Deva Spark, and base entire campaigns on these, ignoring all others.
But really...uncanonical? To me all planar accessories are official products, even if I am not using much from some, and of course feel that some are far better written than others. Even now I have faith in editors of Wizards that make things somehow fit together (though some dissappointments have come over the years). Planescape:Torment is the best pc game I ever played, but I can`t consider it official wizards material. The books published from TSR/Wizards, though..
Why isn`t more energy spent in fitting things together instead of trying to find the few "proper" sources that are usable?
By the way, about PS1...is this accessory considered "canonical" information in the eyes of the Planescape community, preceding the origins of Planescape as it is, although packed with planar material? Little here has ever been countered with planar material published later, to my knowledge at least.
It's certainly an official product, but it can't be considered part of the Planescape setting, or part of the 3rd edition planar continuity.
Some of Die Vecna Die was accepted as canonical by Planewalker.com, but not all of it. Their version of the events of that adventure was explained in Chapter 6 of their 3rd edition campaign setting. Long story short: Vecna took over the Armory and resurrected Ely Cromlich. The Lady of Pain apparently let him in on purpose and watched the events without interfering. Vecna eventually was forced to leave, though by who isn't entirely clear (presumedly a party of adventurers, but most Sigilians don't know that). The multiverse wasn't rearranged.
Torment, I think, is worthy of being considered entirely canonical, though it isn't an official WotC or TSR product. The two don't necessarily go hand in hand; I judge such things by how well they fit with the established continuity. Torment fits, Die Vecna Die does not. Guide to Hell and Warriors of Heaven are also not acceptable as Planescape references, while many d20 products, like Green Ronin's Book of Fiends and Malhavoc Press' Beyond Countless Doorways, work fine with Planescape. Whether or not something is an "official product" doesn't enter into it.
What's PS1?
I haven't read it, but from all I've heard of it, yeah - it should be canonical.
. Well, some adventures in it are quite good.Personally I don`t find contact with deities that bad, in the real-life norse or olympian religions there were lots of such encounters. Well, perhaps not where Greater Powers are involved, though...that just seems weird. Demipowers or even Lesser ones, though.......
Lots of direct contact with between PCs and deities in PS1
OP1, you mean.
I don't necessarily dislike direct contact (even full-body contact) between deities and PCs, but I think it ought to be kept somewhat rare; many gods did move among mortals, almost always in disguise, but there are so many mortals and so few gods in comparison (even avatars) that I think it helps suspension of disbelief if casual hob-nobbing is kept to a minimum. I haven't read OP1, so I don't know if it's too much for me or not.
I thought that Union was created because most D&D 1e purists hate PS & claim that the planes are only for epic level PC's to adventure in; so they needed somewhere to shop for phat lewt.
I'm sure that was involved somewhere along the line. Some folks have a disturbing hate-on for PS, though I'm never sure if it's for anything specific in PS, or just that they have an irrational loathing of anything from 2nd edition in general.
I'm sure that was involved somewhere along the line. Some folks have a disturbing hate-on for PS, though I'm never sure if it's for anything specific in PS, or just that they have an irrational loathing of anything from 2nd edition in general.
From what I've seen, I don't think they hate 2e, I think they really hate PS.
Which when you compare their logic for disliking PS with our logic for disliking Union, it's kind of funny. The 1e guys argument is that PSers think outside the box and are willing to cheapen the idea of how the planes can be played...yet here we are, criticizing DM's that use Union because they are thinking outside the box and willing to cheapen the idea of how the planes can be played :P
Now I'm wanting to get 1e guys opinions about what they think about Union
Union, as written, is a garbage interpretation on what could've been a =great= concept. I think houwever that the =idea= of Union is something worth looking into.
First of all, as others have said, I love Sigil, Planescape, and alot of the "non-cannonish" stuff, Die Vecna Die, etc.
Sometimes those "great Rules" need to be broken, just to shake things up.
I'ld buff Union up as a home for D&D "oddities" if you will . . . Magic of the Incarnum, Epic Level Psionics and the like.
I'ld add gates to nonstandard campaign worlds, like say, the Iron Kingdoms, and the homegrown "Infernus" campaign.
Once you add all those special interest groups, I would make a patron deity that would be a symbol of the City, perhaps a lost shard of Aoskar that survived? I'ld combine it with some other deity like say, Urbanus . . . and perhaps some other patron as well. There you go.
He'ld certainly have a stake in "sticking it" to Sigil & the Lady.
Re: Mercanes and the Lady and some past offenses:
Theory is perhaps the Mercane and Dabus have some common element of evolution?
Perhaps Mercane are Dabus that never signed on with and/or broke faith with the Lady?
Just some food for thought. . . .
I'ld also stick a couple Illumian Cabals and Rogue faction or Sect elements in there, just to round the setting out. Perhaps a few escaped Convicts from the Mazes as well . . .
I am really curious on how one would incorporate a major Planar cross-roads that would vie and compete with Sigil for commerce, power and the title of being the "hub" of the Multiverse. If Necessity is the Mother of all Invention, surely Competition is the Father of Innovation.
Sigil (though I must state again for clarity that I LOVE it as written in 2nd. Edition lore), soon becomes portrayed as the factionalist and internally conflicted "Microsoft" or "Bell Telephone Company" of Interplanar Trade . . . simply put: It's a Monopoly with a capital "M".
It'd be good to see Union or some other Interplanar crossroads rewritten or retooled as a City worthy of giving Sigil and that Prickily Lady of Pain a good Run for their 'Jink.
Perhaps an adaptation of Michael Moorcock's Tanelorn?
Ideas anyone? I think the idea of two fantasy cities, each interplanar crossroads with their own strengths and exploitable weaknesses, would make for a really cool backdrop.
And somehow, I doubt the City of Brass actually qualifies, nor does the Infinite Staircase, no matter how cool they are as plot devices.
What do you all think?
I think I'll keep most of the info in that book, but limit things like dwarves and halflings to the particular families and NPCs described there - they're powerful, but not numerous. Fortunately, the book doesn't give exact population figures in most cases, and where it does the populations are pretty tiny, so there's room to add hundreds of thousands of other sapients. The various districts will be mainly populated by humans, genasi, and elemental races. Races from all the elemental planes, not just the Elemental Plane of Water - the city nicknamed the Sigil of the Elements isn't going to be limited to the plane it happens to be based on.
I might change the map scale, too, and make the city a little bigger.
The nature of the portals that the city is supposedly filled with is also very vaguely described. We know there are portals, but we don't know where they came from or even what they look like. Are they natural? Are they created by the city's inhabitants? The book doesn't say.
Wow. . . . did I really kill this thing dead? No one had any input on anything I said? Anyone? Anyone?
I am really curious on how one would incorporate a major Planar cross-roads that would vie and compete with Sigil for commerce, power and the title of being the "hub" of the Multiverse. If Necessity is the Mother of all Invention, surely Competition is the Father of Innovation.
Sigil (though I must state again for clarity that I LOVE it as written in 2nd. Edition lore), soon becomes portrayed as the factionalist and internally conflicted "Microsoft" or "Bell Telephone Company" of Interplanar Trade . . . simply put: It's a Monopoly with a capital "M".
It'd be good to see Union or some other Interplanar crossroads rewritten or retooled as a City worthy of giving Sigil and that Prickily Lady of Pain a good Run for their 'Jink.
Perhaps an adaptation of Michael Moorcock's Tanelorn?
Ideas anyone? I think the idea of two fantasy cities, each interplanar crossroads with their own strengths and exploitable weaknesses, would make for a really cool backdrop.
And somehow, I doubt the City of Brass actually qualifies, nor does the Infinite Staircase, no matter how cool they are as plot devices.
What do you all think?
*bumps*