Is the population of Greyhawk decidedly different? What would factor into those differences, if at all?
I have a couple other thoughts but I'll flesh them out in a later post. Feel free to add or subtract from the above comment.
The world of Waterdeep seems almost static in comparison. There are wars, but they seem to be of little importance, more devices used to drive novels than the real mover and shaker, being the consequences of the actions of small groups of players. Player groups are the most important aspect of Forgotten Realms, with national heroes more likely to be dungeon crawlers than military commanders. Furthermore, the high magic nature often makes warfare impossible. Who would lay siege to Waterdeep when whole sections of wall are kept in nearby pocket dimensions, and thousands of wizards are at the beck and call of its leaders. It often the real world equivalent of protestors with signs and water balloons pitted against a company of Abrams Main Battle Tanks.
If you want a worldview for Grayhawk, you must think of people as constantly wracked by warfare, on every scale from that of a mugger in an alley using violence to "just make a living" to the clash of vast armies on fields. Its people are eternally in a state of Post traumatic stress syndrome, and waiting for the next shoe to drop.
Forgotten Realms commoner: Oh, ho hum. So, what were you saying? Something about Elminster destroying another god?
Magic in Greyhawk, however, takes on a markedly different tone.
Magic is a force in decline and what that does for a worldview may be significant. What we hold in reverence; what we honor and/or respect often derives its value from uniqueness or scarcity (whether in regards to resources, ethics, talent, ability, etc.), and while Greyhawk has its share of epic-level characters, it is primarily a low magic world.
Once, years ago, I played in an extremely low magic campaign, the sort of which you sometimes hear about but have a hard time imagining. The player characters were cautious to use the word 'wizard' for fear of witchhunts, and it was nearly half a year before we came across any significant finds in the way of magic.
When we did, however, the moment was worthy of that new D&D soundtrack. PCs that once confessed to being the worst of munchkins were utterly mystified by the discovery of a glowing +1 longsword.
That was a special moment, but it's an extreme example to make a point about the Greyhawk paradigm. Magic has a unique place in the Flanaess, and draws more respect than it would elsewhere.
I like Delgath's description of FR commoner compared to GH commoner. It was quite amusing.
There is a wonderful tension in the current year of Greyhawk, almost a timeless tension, you might say. It is no different than Midnight or the opening of LoTR, two settings which share the much needed conflict that drives any tale of epic dimension.
The comment that worlds such as FR languish in stasis is correct, for FR is a world that allows for little or no change, whether among individuals or society as a whole. If the old axiom about conflict driving progress is true, then it is remarkable to think FR ever developed to its current level at all.
But Greyhawk has that underlying tension. Even the commoners feel it, it's a nearly visible fog you can almost touch. You can trust no one (that new barkeep might work for the Brotherhood). Even the most powerful who've known each other for years can't be trusted, look at Rary.
Do you think Elminster would allow an evil demi gods control of a "country"? Would he allow that demon to cause a "world" war? He would have known about and averted Rary's betrayal if he would have even allowed the war to happen at all.
Where in FR have orcs taken control of vast areas of land and kept it?
There is always a war going on somewhere in Greyhawk. A merc never has to look far to his next meal or his next job.
In FR the aristacrats adventure for fun, something to do. In Greyhawk the aristacrats, for the most part, are afraid to leave their cities. It's not a safe land, travelers either know how to use the weapons they carry or go with gaurds.
This is our home, we the adventurer, are like current day adrenaline junkies. We live for the fight, the tension, the excitement. Live by the sword, you expect to die by the sword. Not retire to Waterdeep, not to Shadowsdale.
A commoner of the Shield Lands (if he isn't dead or homeless) might be aiding the Shield and Furyondian forces in the crusade to reclaim his homeland.
In general, commoners of Greyhawk are probably more concerned with whether or not they are going to survive.
FR commoners are probably more concerned with how business is going, or gossiping about what more important figures are doing.
Greyhawk is a very dangerous place, even for the NPCs of Oerth.
(I mean hey, if even the Circle of Eight isn't safe...)
FR has never seemed this way to me, especially when it comes to the NPCs of the Realms. Some of them almost come across as pets. As though the setting creators don't want them to get hurt...
(ugh, DMPC pets)
Adventurers out to destroy the evil lord and plunder his obviously ill gotten booty can be very surprised when people of "good" alignment ralley to the hue and cry. Unless the earnest heros can offer something of equal value, it is better to have an evil tyrant who protects his peoples life and property from everyone else then to be left with no protector at all.
My own campaign in Blackmoor is a perfect example of this problem. Most of the leaders are evil, but the people still rally to them. Good types determined to bring the light of Law and Good to a distant wilderness have been forced to walk a very narrow path. The average inhabitant of Dantraden fears the Archbaron, but he fears the mad devotees of Wastri, the koblods of the Burneal, the Egg of Coot, rampaging Frost and Ice Barbarians, and other eviles much more.
This ballance of terror holds the whole land together. Remove Evil from one place and they could bring the whole house down in a bloody war.
No one remembers the how or why behind ancient magic. It's gone. That's it. People can speak of the Suel and their magic but no one can stand up and say THIS was the reason the Baklunish perished. Greyhawk will always have an air of mystery that the Realms do not. That underlying mystery is at work in the subconscious of all commoners.
There is much we do not know...
(I mean hey, if even the Circle of Eight isn't safe...)
I really loved this bit of plot and background. MY old Greyhawk group had interacted with various members of the Circle (of course, without any of us players knowing just who some of our mysterious employers really were). Our DM had set up a small adventure that brought us about as bodyguards for some delegates at the peace treaty where we witnessed the events of Rary firsthand after only moments before learning the truth behind some of the NPCs alleigences to the Circle. It was a crowning acheivement for our DM to have us see poor Tenser slain whom we had formed a friendship with (but assumed him to be just a wise noble). This really drove home that nowhere on Oerth is one safe from villains and evil. It raised some of our more wishy-washy neutral characters into paragons of good and righteousness. Even the groups rogue turned over a new leaf to fight injustice, evil, and tyranny. This one event, played out masterfully by our DM, solidified the views of our seven players regarding Oerth. It was marvelous fun.
Originally posted by Darastrix
Mach2.5 - That was a cool story.
I have to agree with Darastrix. That was a great nostalgic moment. Makes me wish I had played D&D back in the day when there were more published adventures in Greyhawk and players witnessed the history of the setting unfolding before their eyes.
Furthermore, the varied races of Suel, Baklun, and Flan lend the setting an inter-racial vibrancy not unlike that of our own world.
Also, I would agree that Greyhawk's position as a low (read: lower) magic world has a great effect upon the people and their attitude towards wizards and the like.
Lastly, the indeterminate balance between good and evil has created a world where mortality is all too apparent. The value of life has shifted considerably in the last generation or so.
The feeling of community has grown with it as well. Wars polarize populations and bring a sense of community not otherwise felt. The after-effects of the Greyhawk Wars reverberate throughout the setting.
One could argue that the Greyhawk Wars have spurred the second great migrations of Greyhawk for nothing moves more people than famine or war, and in case, almost every group of the Flanaess have been affected in one way or another.
Imagine the large number of people traveling due to these conflicts, each person learning and absorbing from each place they see; the amount of cultural import is staggering. The innovations they learn and bring with them is of no little significance.
Then there is the resulting shift in population that results from the casualties of war. Legions of young men are decimated and their cities feel the effect of these losses. Economies bristle or decline because of such shifts in numbers. People migrate to safer cities, people migrate for employment opportunities, people escape to places where they had never before imagined.
The social and political beliefs is also a matter of interest. New political systems are introduced where hitherto they had been unseen. The same is certainly true for religious beliefs; a deity's name may be carried far and wide by the soldiers who cross the Flanaess.
And these are just broad strokes of change that war might bring to a continent; there are coutless influences felt on a smaller scale.
The differences a commoner would notice would mostly stem from three factors, methinks. First, Greyhawk seems to be more akin to the early middle ages, whileas the Realms is closer to the Renaissance. Second, Greyhawk's political structure is based on the nation-state, where the Realms is based on the city-state. Third, the gods of greyhawk seem more divided into pantheons, where the Realms is more one unified pantheon.
Originally posted by Delglath
Greyhawk commoner: Oh bugger... HEEEEEELLLP!
Forgotten Realms commoner: Oh, ho hum. So, what were you saying? Something about Elminster destroying another god?
Yes Delglath, totally agree with you. It's sad but it sums up quite well the difference between those two world.