WoHS and Specialization - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

WoHS and Specialization

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 26, 2003 19:21:09 If I start with a Neutral Good 1st level Wizard and decide I want to specialize in Enchantment, then at forth level I have either stop advancing as a Wizard, or risk dying at the hand of the Wizards of High Sorcery?

(Because Enchantment, as a specialization, is exclusive to Black Robes and a NG character can't be a Black Robe and a character can't change his specialization.)

Or is it possible to join the WoHS without taking the PrC? (It says you gain it automatically after the test...)

Thanks,
Andrew
#2
zombiegleemax
Jul 26, 2003 20:01:34 *erased*
#3
sweetmeats
Jul 27, 2003 7:02:04 In my current 3rd ed game, we use a WoHS from the Nexus site and it has a similar restriction. We decided that the spells choosen before becoming a WoHS don't count for the PrC.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2003 7:43:18 In my game we use a Feat from the Nexus site for those who don't want to take the WoHS PrC, but still want to join one of the 3 orders of High Sorcery (White, Red, Black robes).

Wizard of High Sorcery [general] by Trampas Whiteman

Best wishes Kevin
#5
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2003 21:55:04 I don't have a copy of the DLCS yet, but I'd say that a Wizard who wants the WoHS PrC should be allowed to specialize (or re-specialize) AFTER the Test. Under some circumstances the Test could drastically alter your alignment.

Assuming that specialization is a REQUIREMENT for the PrC this would also work for non-specialist Wizards.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2003 22:04:02 To actually answer your question I believe you can be a member of the WoHS without having the PrC.

I really don't know why specialization is a requirement... maybe limit some things like Necromancy, but I don't see a problem with a white robe enchanter...maybe I ought to look over the definition for an enchanter though...
#7
ferratus
Jul 28, 2003 14:05:16 I haven't looked over the rules for the WoHS, but if the prerequisites are whacked, you might want to take a look at how the Red Wizards of Thay handle it in the 3.5 Player's handbook.

They also have a "prohibited" school that they choose. General Wizards choose a prohibited school upon gaining the prestige class, but are still allowed to cast the spells from their prohibited below the level they joined. For example a 5th level wizard who joins the "Red Wizards" chooses "enchantment" as his prohibited school. He can still cast enchantment spells of 3rd spell level or lower.

Specialist wizards have 3 prohibited schools.

So translating this over to Dragonlance, you can have the WoHS specifically say which school of magic you have to give up.

General Wizard White Robes: Cannot cast higher than 2nd spell level necromancy spells.

General Wizard RR: Cannot cast higher than 2nd spell level of any school of their choice.

General Wizard BR: Cannot cast higher than 2nd spell level of abjuration.

If they had already chosen necromancy or abjuration as a prohibited school, they simply pick another one.
#8
zombiegleemax
Jul 28, 2003 15:18:43 Actually this is handled in the Age of Mortals book. Dalamar is listed as a General Black Robes wizard. In the book next to this they state that its an optional rule to require the mages to adopt the specilization benifit. If you enter as general or not specilized in your robe you do not benifit from that 1st level specilization feat. Hope it helps
#9
zombiegleemax
Jul 28, 2003 18:19:50
Originally posted by Darkend
Actually this is handled in the Age of Mortals book. Dalamar is listed as a General Black Robes wizard. In the book next to this they state that its an optional rule to require the mages to adopt the specilization benifit. If you enter as general or not specilized in your robe you do not benifit from that 1st level specilization feat. Hope it helps

If I understand correctly:
You can take the WoHS prestige class and ignore the Enhanced Specialization feature entirely, but you still need the "specialized in a school of magic" requirement.

or...

You can take the WoHS prestige class without ever being specialized in any school and you ignore the Specialization feature entirely.

Could I get the quote, if it's not too big?

And thanks a lot!
#10
cam_banks
Jul 28, 2003 18:44:32
Originally posted by The Soulforged
You can take the WoHS prestige class without ever being specialized in any school and you ignore the Specialization feature entirely.

It's the latter. The idea is that you can have a wizard who is not a specialist take the PrC at the cost of not gaining one of the PrC's benefits.

Another alternative is to allow generalist wizards to take the PrC, and become a specialist from that point on, using the rules for specialization. You'd have to choose from one of the schools the Order advocates (such as Divination or Abjuration for the White Robes) and you wouldn't gain the enhanced specialization bonuses, just the standard ones for being a specialist.

DMs should talk to players who intend on playing a wizard and come up with some kind of long-term strategy which allows for their prerequisites to be met. In other words, if you abide by the PrC requirements in the DLCS, make sure Good wizards don't decide to become Evokers.

Cheers,
Cam
#11
ferratus
Jul 29, 2003 2:37:18 Hmm... this all seems confusing. I guess between trying to keep things canonical, the release of 3.5 and WotC producing one book and Sovereign Press producing another... some things didn't turn out exactly as the designers would have liked.

But, not every product is perfect. After all, it didn't take very long for everyone to realize how much the ranger sucked in the 3.0 player's handbook, or how unbalanced the archmage prestige class was in the FRCS.

In comparison the WoHS seems to just need a slight bit of tweaking. I'll probably do a little tweaking and post an "unnofficial errata" page for the WoHS class and a few other things.

Edit: For clarity.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jul 29, 2003 8:14:18 I'm quite confused now. At 4th level you take the test and then your PC is required to take the WoHS PrC?
#13
zombiegleemax
Jul 29, 2003 8:24:58 No at fourth level you do not have to take the Tower Prestige class.
#14
Dragonhelm
Jul 29, 2003 10:10:18 One thing I've noticed throughout the years role-playing is that some people feel that they must follow the rulebooks to a T. Likewise, there are just as many people who have their own campaign rules as well.

Having a Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class was a decision the designers made, which they felt best represented the organization and also served the purpose of game balance.

Undoubtedly, there will be those who just want to play a straight wizard, rather than take on the prestige class. There is nothing wrong with going this route. In Dragonlance terms, you just have to figure out when the Test is taken, and how the moons affect the wizard.

I would highly recommend that players and DMs take a look at Guardians of Order's Role-Playing Game Manifesto. You can find it in any of their products (such as Silver Age Sentinels, BESM d20, etc.), or in the following free download:

Tri-Stat Rules

Long story short, play the WoHS however you wish - specialist or generalist, base class or prestige class. It's all good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 26, 2003 19:21:09	If I start with a Neutral Good 1st level Wizard and decide I want to specialize in Enchantment, then at forth level I have either stop advancing as a Wizard, or risk dying at the hand of the Wizards of High Sorcery? (Because Enchantment, as a specialization, is exclusive to Black Robes and a NG character can't be a Black Robe and a character can't change his specialization.) Or is it possible to join the WoHS without taking the PrC? (It says you gain it automatically after the test...) Thanks, Andrew
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 26, 2003 20:01:34	erased
#3 sweetmeats Jul 27, 2003 7:02:04	In my current 3rd ed game, we use a WoHS from the Nexus site and it has a similar restriction. We decided that the spells choosen before becoming a WoHS don't count for the PrC.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 7:43:18	In my game we use a Feat from the Nexus site for those who don't want to take the WoHS PrC, but still want to join one of the 3 orders of High Sorcery (White, Red, Black robes). Wizard of High Sorcery [general] by Trampas Whiteman Best wishes Kevin
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 21:55:04	I don't have a copy of the DLCS yet, but I'd say that a Wizard who wants the WoHS PrC should be allowed to specialize (or re-specialize) AFTER the Test. Under some circumstances the Test could drastically alter your alignment. Assuming that specialization is a REQUIREMENT for the PrC this would also work for non-specialist Wizards.
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 22:04:02	To actually answer your question I believe you can be a member of the WoHS without having the PrC. I really don't know why specialization is a requirement... maybe limit some things like Necromancy, but I don't see a problem with a white robe enchanter...maybe I ought to look over the definition for an enchanter though...
#7 ferratus Jul 28, 2003 14:05:16	I haven't looked over the rules for the WoHS, but if the prerequisites are whacked, you might want to take a look at how the Red Wizards of Thay handle it in the 3.5 Player's handbook. They also have a "prohibited" school that they choose. General Wizards choose a prohibited school upon gaining the prestige class, but are still allowed to cast the spells from their prohibited below the level they joined. For example a 5th level wizard who joins the "Red Wizards" chooses "enchantment" as his prohibited school. He can still cast enchantment spells of 3rd spell level or lower. Specialist wizards have 3 prohibited schools. So translating this over to Dragonlance, you can have the WoHS specifically say which school of magic you have to give up. General Wizard White Robes: Cannot cast higher than 2nd spell level necromancy spells. General Wizard RR: Cannot cast higher than 2nd spell level of any school of their choice. General Wizard BR: Cannot cast higher than 2nd spell level of abjuration. If they had already chosen necromancy or abjuration as a prohibited school, they simply pick another one.
#8 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2003 15:18:43	Actually this is handled in the Age of Mortals book. Dalamar is listed as a General Black Robes wizard. In the book next to this they state that its an optional rule to require the mages to adopt the specilization benifit. If you enter as general or not specilized in your robe you do not benifit from that 1st level specilization feat. Hope it helps
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2003 18:19:50	Originally posted by Darkend Actually this is handled in the Age of Mortals book. Dalamar is listed as a General Black Robes wizard. In the book next to this they state that its an optional rule to require the mages to adopt the specilization benifit. If you enter as general or not specilized in your robe you do not benifit from that 1st level specilization feat. Hope it helps If I understand correctly: You can take the WoHS prestige class and ignore the Enhanced Specialization feature entirely, but you still need the "specialized in a school of magic" requirement. or... You can take the WoHS prestige class without ever being specialized in any school and you ignore the Specialization feature entirely. Could I get the quote, if it's not too big? And thanks a lot!
#10 cam_banks Jul 28, 2003 18:44:32	Originally posted by The Soulforged You can take the WoHS prestige class without ever being specialized in any school and you ignore the Specialization feature entirely. It's the latter. The idea is that you can have a wizard who is not a specialist take the PrC at the cost of not gaining one of the PrC's benefits. Another alternative is to allow generalist wizards to take the PrC, and become a specialist from that point on, using the rules for specialization. You'd have to choose from one of the schools the Order advocates (such as Divination or Abjuration for the White Robes) and you wouldn't gain the enhanced specialization bonuses, just the standard ones for being a specialist. DMs should talk to players who intend on playing a wizard and come up with some kind of long-term strategy which allows for their prerequisites to be met. In other words, if you abide by the PrC requirements in the DLCS, make sure Good wizards don't decide to become Evokers. Cheers, Cam
#11 ferratus Jul 29, 2003 2:37:18	Hmm... this all seems confusing. I guess between trying to keep things canonical, the release of 3.5 and WotC producing one book and Sovereign Press producing another... some things didn't turn out exactly as the designers would have liked. But, not every product is perfect. After all, it didn't take very long for everyone to realize how much the ranger sucked in the 3.0 player's handbook, or how unbalanced the archmage prestige class was in the FRCS. In comparison the WoHS seems to just need a slight bit of tweaking. I'll probably do a little tweaking and post an "unnofficial errata" page for the WoHS class and a few other things. Edit: For clarity.
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 8:14:18	I'm quite confused now. At 4th level you take the test and then your PC is required to take the WoHS PrC?
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 8:24:58	No at fourth level you do not have to take the Tower Prestige class.
#14 Dragonhelm Jul 29, 2003 10:10:18	One thing I've noticed throughout the years role-playing is that some people feel that they must follow the rulebooks to a T. Likewise, there are just as many people who have their own campaign rules as well. Having a Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class was a decision the designers made, which they felt best represented the organization and also served the purpose of game balance. Undoubtedly, there will be those who just want to play a straight wizard, rather than take on the prestige class. There is nothing wrong with going this route. In Dragonlance terms, you just have to figure out when the Test is taken, and how the moons affect the wizard. I would highly recommend that players and DMs take a look at Guardians of Order's Role-Playing Game Manifesto. You can find it in any of their products (such as Silver Age Sentinels, BESM d20, etc.), or in the following free download: Tri-Stat Rules Long story short, play the WoHS however you wish - specialist or generalist, base class or prestige class. It's all good.