Recommended Reading - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Recommended Reading

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2003 1:29:28 What Greyhawk based novels do you recommend (if any)?
#2
grodog
Jul 27, 2003 4:49:59 Gygax's Gord novels, of course:

Saga of Old City
Artifact of Evil
Sea of Death
City of Hawks
Night Arrant
Come Endless Darkness
Dance of Demons

Gary also has some Gord short stories in various collections (see his Locus bibliographies of short stories at http://www.locusmag.com/index/s319.html#A7100 and novels at http://www.locusmag.com/index/b210.html#A2839 for full listings).

I've also heard that Robin Bailey's Nightwatch is quite good, though I haven't dug up a copy yet.

Andre Norton's Quag Keep is sort-of set in Greyhawk; I think it's quite overrated and its relevance to Greyhawk is minimal.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2003 6:06:34 sorry, but i love Greyhawk, i think Gygax and Arneson made a fantastic job for D&D and the Rpg indirectly BUT, really, ia cannot say he's a good writer... I read some of his books and i was diappointed, thats the least i can say. LIke alle the novel published by tsr, it sounds like if it was written for kids, and poorly written. THe sorry was not interesting, the characters were poor, and the form was childish. Sorry to write that.
Of course, because i love Greyhawk, i was so happy to read books from its author with reference to this world but..
I would like to see a good author emerging from the heroic fantasy line, Jordan was quite good, but sometime sleepy, and he looks like he was paid for the quantity. The best author are coming from space opera i think.
Thats to say, I would like so much TSR to ^publish books for adults , i am not waiting Lord of the ring in greyhawk but... Who knows?
PS: sorry for my english, thats not my native tongue.
#4
Gnarley_Woodsman
Jul 27, 2003 8:40:47 Don't overlook the newer novels that have been released since 2000. My wife and I particularly like the Paul Kidd books with the main characters Justicar and Escalla. Also Ru Emersons Against the Giants lives and breaths the gritty nature of Greyhawk. The chill that went through my body when the first page simply said 585cy. Whew! I was enthralled. Heres a list of the recent novelizations.

>Keep on the Borderlands, Ru Emerson
>Against the Giants, Ru Emerson
>White Plume Mountain, Paul Kidd
>Decent into the Depths, Paul Kidd
>Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Paul Kidd
>The Temple of Elemental Evil, Thomas M. Reid
>The Tomb of Horrors, Keith Strohm

Now admittedly these are based on the classisc modules, but these adventures are at the very core of what created Greyhawk. If nothing else they immerse you in the world for a time.

The first Paragraph of White Plume Mountain has an Outsiders view of the Flaness. By outsider I mean a being not of Oerth.

Well thats my suggestion for now. As far as reading the Gords stuff. I agree with Grodog. These also would give you an insight into the workings of the world as seen by Gygax.
#5
faraer
Jul 27, 2003 13:55:21 Gygax's novels aren't first-rate, but they're far better written and more adult than most category fantasy, certainly better than most TSR/Wizards books with a more profound imagination; and more importantly, they represent the World of Greyhawk perfectly, by definition.
#6
grodog
Jul 27, 2003 14:47:53 I had forgotten about the Tomb of Horrors novel by Keith Strohm---it's also quite good, surprisingly so, in fact. Thanks for the reminder
Gnarley_Woodsman.

WRT makoma's comments that:

ia cannot say [Gygax is] a good writer... I read some of his books and i was diappointed, thats the least i can say. LIke alle the novel published by tsr, it sounds like if it was written for kids, and poorly written. THe sorry was not interesting, the characters were poor, and the form was childish. Sorry to write that.

I never said that Gygax was Herman Melville or anything ;-> The essence of Gygax's novels, however, is an insight and detailing of Greyhawk that no one else (except perhaps Rob Kuntz) could actualize: the living, breathing details of that define Greyhawk as the first D&D world.

* MINOR SPOILERS *

* MINOR SPOILERS *

* MINOR SPOILERS *

* MINOR SPOILERS *

* MINOR SPOILERS *

* MINOR SPOILERS *

* MINOR SPOILERS *

* MINOR SPOILERS *

Regardless of whether you like Gord in Saga of Old City---as a character, as a literary entity---you can't deny that the catobologne's stone circle, the meal that Gord and Gellor share at Chubb's in Rookroost, the politics of Blemu independence, etc., are wonderful contributions to anyone's Greyhawk games.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2003 23:37:18
Originally posted by grodog
Regardless of whether you like Gord in Saga of Old City---as a character, as a literary entity---you can't deny that the catobologne's stone circle, the meal that Gord and Gellor share at Chubb's in Rookroost, the politics of Blemu independence, etc., are wonderful contributions to anyone's Greyhawk games.

I often hear that sentiment from those who've read the novels but I, for one, can't stand to read them in order to gain such information.

What'd be really cool is if someone could condense the books, extract the good bits and write them up gazetteer style... any takers?
#8
Gnarley_Woodsman
Jul 27, 2003 23:50:57 Well, I found this site a while back which is sort of a summarization of the Greyhawk information that was presented around Gord's adventures. It details the events of the books fairly well for those who either cannot locate the books, or do not wish to read the entirety of the novelizations.

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/gordmain.html
#9
zombiegleemax
Jul 28, 2003 0:00:31 Lots of good stuff on that site. Thanks Woodsman.
#10
zombiegleemax
Jul 28, 2003 10:19:02 Hmm and what about "Quag Keep"? Surprised no one has mentioned this book, the story is based in Greyhawk ... I presume the first.

Cheers
#11
Gnarley_Woodsman
Jul 28, 2003 11:34:41 No problem.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jul 28, 2003 12:11:55 Having just finished "Dance of Demons" I have to say that these books are required reading for a true understanding of the setting and Gary envisioned it. A great series for a look at how the forces of the lower planes act and relate to eachother. Saga of Old City is required for running a game in Greyhawk City IMO. They capture the feel of classic AD&D perfectly.

Gord the Rogue!!!
#13
zombiegleemax
Jul 30, 2003 6:31:44 I would say 'Saga Of Old City' is the only one that is really required reading.
#14
phebius
Jul 31, 2003 3:18:02 All credit to Gary for his contributions to the gaming industry and Greyhawk itself, but the man is not a good novelist. Yes you can get insight into the World of Greyhawk by reading his books, but it's really not worth it. The Gord books have a number of things going against them.

1. Bad prose. In the beginning of almost every chapter is a long bit of descriptive text. This is inevitably followed by a character reiterating what was just read. This gets annoying after the first three times.

2. Bad dialogue. Some gems include Gord pointing out that he can "get a piece of ass in many places," "Obmi yelling "F--- yourself drow *****!" and Tharizidun bellowing "Muhuhuhuhahaha!"

3. No one "says" anything. Everyone either cries, states, bellows, yells, screams, inserts, or avows.

4. Character names. I know that some of these were supposedly actual characters in Gary's Greyhawk campaign, but I can't take seriously a druid named "Curley Greenleaf" because he's bald.

All of this is, of course, my opinion, and you are all free to make your own judgements.
#15
Argon
Jul 31, 2003 7:21:48 Well I must ay that the novel's mentioned above are insights to the world of Greyhawk. But I for one find that the supplements and modules that came out were a better read than any of the novels.
Jordans books are filled with great ideas, but the story lags on and on. Leaving the reader to wonder if the story means to go anywhere at all.
Now their was a really good series on fantasy was the Shadowrun line of books. They were surprisingly well written and even though they are written in the future. Much of what the story contains can be incorporated into a Greyhawk or any other fantasy based campaign.
#16
zombiegleemax
Jul 31, 2003 8:55:00
Originally posted by Damio
I would say 'Saga Of Old City' is the only one that is really required reading.

Yeah, that's probably true. SoOC is all you need to get a good "feel" for Gygax's vision of Greyhawk and Oerik. It's the best novel TSR/WOTC ever put out IMO. The rest are very interesting if you are into the powers behind the scenes on Oerth and the plots and schemes of the lower planes and thier masters. His handling of Graz'zt was great and his court. I got tons of ideas for the Abyss from those books.

Vuron has already been intruducted to my game, the PC's trusted him when he gave them a magic sword to "help" them....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 1:29:28	What Greyhawk based novels do you recommend (if any)?
#2 grodog Jul 27, 2003 4:49:59	Gygax's Gord novels, of course: Saga of Old City Artifact of Evil Sea of Death City of Hawks Night Arrant Come Endless Darkness Dance of Demons Gary also has some Gord short stories in various collections (see his Locus bibliographies of short stories at http://www.locusmag.com/index/s319.html#A7100 and novels at http://www.locusmag.com/index/b210.html#A2839 for full listings). I've also heard that Robin Bailey's Nightwatch is quite good, though I haven't dug up a copy yet. Andre Norton's Quag Keep is sort-of set in Greyhawk; I think it's quite overrated and its relevance to Greyhawk is minimal.
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 6:06:34	sorry, but i love Greyhawk, i think Gygax and Arneson made a fantastic job for D&D and the Rpg indirectly BUT, really, ia cannot say he's a good writer... I read some of his books and i was diappointed, thats the least i can say. LIke alle the novel published by tsr, it sounds like if it was written for kids, and poorly written. THe sorry was not interesting, the characters were poor, and the form was childish. Sorry to write that. Of course, because i love Greyhawk, i was so happy to read books from its author with reference to this world but.. I would like to see a good author emerging from the heroic fantasy line, Jordan was quite good, but sometime sleepy, and he looks like he was paid for the quantity. The best author are coming from space opera i think. Thats to say, I would like so much TSR to ^publish books for adults , i am not waiting Lord of the ring in greyhawk but... Who knows? PS: sorry for my english, thats not my native tongue.
#4 Gnarley_Woodsman Jul 27, 2003 8:40:47	Don't overlook the newer novels that have been released since 2000. My wife and I particularly like the Paul Kidd books with the main characters Justicar and Escalla. Also Ru Emersons Against the Giants lives and breaths the gritty nature of Greyhawk. The chill that went through my body when the first page simply said 585cy. Whew! I was enthralled. Heres a list of the recent novelizations. >Keep on the Borderlands, Ru Emerson >Against the Giants, Ru Emerson >White Plume Mountain, Paul Kidd >Decent into the Depths, Paul Kidd >Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Paul Kidd >The Temple of Elemental Evil, Thomas M. Reid >The Tomb of Horrors, Keith Strohm Now admittedly these are based on the classisc modules, but these adventures are at the very core of what created Greyhawk. If nothing else they immerse you in the world for a time. The first Paragraph of White Plume Mountain has an Outsiders view of the Flaness. By outsider I mean a being not of Oerth. Well thats my suggestion for now. As far as reading the Gords stuff. I agree with Grodog. These also would give you an insight into the workings of the world as seen by Gygax.
#5 faraer Jul 27, 2003 13:55:21	Gygax's novels aren't first-rate, but they're far better written and more adult than most category fantasy, certainly better than most TSR/Wizards books with a more profound imagination; and more importantly, they represent the World of Greyhawk perfectly, by definition.
#6 grodog Jul 27, 2003 14:47:53	I had forgotten about the Tomb of Horrors novel by Keith Strohm---it's also quite good, surprisingly so, in fact. Thanks for the reminder Gnarley_Woodsman. WRT makoma's comments that: ia cannot say [Gygax is] a good writer... I read some of his books and i was diappointed, thats the least i can say. LIke alle the novel published by tsr, it sounds like if it was written for kids, and poorly written. THe sorry was not interesting, the characters were poor, and the form was childish. Sorry to write that. I never said that Gygax was Herman Melville or anything ;-> The essence of Gygax's novels, however, is an insight and detailing of Greyhawk that no one else (except perhaps Rob Kuntz) could actualize: the living, breathing details of that define Greyhawk as the first D&D world. * MINOR SPOILERS * * MINOR SPOILERS * * MINOR SPOILERS * * MINOR SPOILERS * * MINOR SPOILERS * * MINOR SPOILERS * * MINOR SPOILERS * * MINOR SPOILERS * Regardless of whether you like Gord in Saga of Old City---as a character, as a literary entity---you can't deny that the catobologne's stone circle, the meal that Gord and Gellor share at Chubb's in Rookroost, the politics of Blemu independence, etc., are wonderful contributions to anyone's Greyhawk games.
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2003 23:37:18	Originally posted by grodog Regardless of whether you like Gord in Saga of Old City---as a character, as a literary entity---you can't deny that the catobologne's stone circle, the meal that Gord and Gellor share at Chubb's in Rookroost, the politics of Blemu independence, etc., are wonderful contributions to anyone's Greyhawk games. I often hear that sentiment from those who've read the novels but I, for one, can't stand to read them in order to gain such information. What'd be really cool is if someone could condense the books, extract the good bits and write them up gazetteer style... any takers?
#8 Gnarley_Woodsman Jul 27, 2003 23:50:57	Well, I found this site a while back which is sort of a summarization of the Greyhawk information that was presented around Gord's adventures. It details the events of the books fairly well for those who either cannot locate the books, or do not wish to read the entirety of the novelizations. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/gordmain.html
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2003 0:00:31	Lots of good stuff on that site. Thanks Woodsman.
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2003 10:19:02	Hmm and what about "Quag Keep"? Surprised no one has mentioned this book, the story is based in Greyhawk ... I presume the first. Cheers
#11 Gnarley_Woodsman Jul 28, 2003 11:34:41	No problem.
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2003 12:11:55	Having just finished "Dance of Demons" I have to say that these books are required reading for a true understanding of the setting and Gary envisioned it. A great series for a look at how the forces of the lower planes act and relate to eachother. Saga of Old City is required for running a game in Greyhawk City IMO. They capture the feel of classic AD&D perfectly. Gord the Rogue!!!
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 6:31:44	I would say 'Saga Of Old City' is the only one that is really required reading.
#14 phebius Jul 31, 2003 3:18:02	All credit to Gary for his contributions to the gaming industry and Greyhawk itself, but the man is not a good novelist. Yes you can get insight into the World of Greyhawk by reading his books, but it's really not worth it. The Gord books have a number of things going against them. 1. Bad prose. In the beginning of almost every chapter is a long bit of descriptive text. This is inevitably followed by a character reiterating what was just read. This gets annoying after the first three times. 2. Bad dialogue. Some gems include Gord pointing out that he can "get a piece of ass in many places," "Obmi yelling "F--- yourself drow *****!" and Tharizidun bellowing "Muhuhuhuhahaha!" 3. No one "says" anything. Everyone either cries, states, bellows, yells, screams, inserts, or avows. 4. Character names. I know that some of these were supposedly actual characters in Gary's Greyhawk campaign, but I can't take seriously a druid named "Curley Greenleaf" because he's bald. All of this is, of course, my opinion, and you are all free to make your own judgements.
#15 Argon Jul 31, 2003 7:21:48	Well I must ay that the novel's mentioned above are insights to the world of Greyhawk. But I for one find that the supplements and modules that came out were a better read than any of the novels. Jordans books are filled with great ideas, but the story lags on and on. Leaving the reader to wonder if the story means to go anywhere at all. Now their was a really good series on fantasy was the Shadowrun line of books. They were surprisingly well written and even though they are written in the future. Much of what the story contains can be incorporated into a Greyhawk or any other fantasy based campaign.
#16 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2003 8:55:00	Originally posted by Damio *I would say 'Saga Of Old City' is the only one that is really required* reading.** Yeah, that's probably true. SoOC is all you need to get a good "feel" for Gygax's vision of Greyhawk and Oerik. It's the best novel TSR/WOTC ever put out IMO. The rest are very interesting if you are into the powers behind the scenes on Oerth and the plots and schemes of the lower planes and thier masters. His handling of Graz'zt was great and his court. I got tons of ideas for the Abyss from those books. Vuron has already been intruducted to my game, the PC's trusted him when he gave them a magic sword to "help" them....