Curse of the Magi: A mage can tax his own health in order to use magic in dangerous situations. Thus, a mage can cast a spell as if it was 2 levels higher (similar to the heighten spell feat). However, he must roll a fortitude saving throw equal to 10+(spell level) or be fatigued. If he fails this fortitude save while fatigued, he is exhausted. If he fails this fortitude save while exhausted, he falls unconcious for 2d4 hours.
What this basically does is allow "an out" for players trapped with an overeager DM. By all accounts the "Curse of the Magi" rule would pretty much screw you over if you are playing a wizard, since a 1st level wizard (with no con bonus) is fatigued 50% of the time when they cast a 0-level spell. It only gets worse as you go up in level.
This allows you to choose when you can afford to be fatigued, and gives you a noticeable benefit for gambling on the saving throw. Suggest this if the DM is insisting on the "Curse of the Magi" rule to be 'true to the books'.
Originally posted by ferratus
This allows you to choose when you can afford to be fatigued, and gives you a noticeable benefit for gambling on the saving throw. Suggest this if the DM is insisting on the "Curse of the Magi" rule to be 'true to the books'.
There are some other interesting variants that have come up on occasion which may also prove useful for those DMs who don't want to use the one in the DLCS. I'd like to see more, if folks are keen to share them, and will offer up the following idea suggested by my friend Clark as we were tooling about Indianapolis this week.
Each time a wizard casts a spell, he accumulates a number of "fatigue points" equal to the spell level he cast. When the total equals or exceeds his Constitution score, the wizard must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. The DC increases by 1 for every point over the wizard's Constitution score. This total continues to accumulate until the wizard either gets his 8 hours rest or fails the save. The DC will of course become more and more difficult the more spells the wizard casts, which is somewhat evocative of the books.
There's no hidden benefit in this variant, of course. For that, I would suggest consulting the Reserves of Energy feat in the DLCS, which more or less does what Terry suggested (increase caster level but at a cost).
Cheers,
Cam
That was in an attempt to maintain balance (which the CotM deffinitely doesn't) without complicating things any.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Is there mage fatigue rules in the DLCS?
There's a variant rule called the Curse of the Magi.
"...whenever a character casts an arcane spell, he must make a Fortitude saving throw against a DC of 1- + the psell's level after the spell is cast. If he succeeds, he does not suffer any adverse effects from the casting. However, if he fails, then he is fatigued. If he fails another saving throw while fatigues, then he becomes exhausted. If he fails a third saving throw, he then falls unconscious."
Although I am guessing its going to make playing a wizard a rarity for my players.
Does it affect Sorcerers as well? I hope so.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Thats good to see. Makes magic more like it appears in the chronicles.
Although I am guessing its going to make playing a wizard a rarity for my players.
Does it affect Sorcerers as well? I hope so.
It says, "whenever a character casts an arcane spell," so I guess it applies to Sorcerers as well. I don't think most people will be using the rule though, as it's just a variant and is very unbalanced (!).
Greets,
M's Claw
You cannot simply slap a crippling disadvantage to one particular player and not expect him to be upset.
Edit: Mental typo corrected.
Well, yes, that is surely a point.
The whole fatigue-thing is something not that acknowledged by th D&D rules. As a whole, fatigue adds a lot of realism to the play going along with complicating the play. Fatigue should be as well something, a fighter has to cope with. Sure, as a fighter you won't be fatigued as quickly. A normal fight doesn't often last longer than some rounds, let's say up to a few minutes. A fighter's fatigue would only become important in large scale battles where fights go on for hours... And in those situations one would switch to mass-combat-systems including fatigue and morale.
So in general the D&D system includes the fatigue in the "normal" rules like hitpoints, requiring a certain amount of sleep for wizards having cast their spells, continued skill checks for climbing cliffs etc.
So the curse of the magi should really be something that isn't weighing on one particular class too much.
Morgion's claw
Originally posted by Morgion's Claw
@ferratus
Well, yes, that is surely a point.
The whole fatigue-thing is something not that acknowledged by th D&D rules. As a whole, fatigue adds a lot of realism to the play going along with complicating the play.
Actually, it is. Fatigue and Exhaustion are what occurs when a character goes without food or sleep for too long. It also is what happens after a barbarian's rage ability peters out. Check your glossary in either your 3.0 or 3.5 player's handbook.
It just isn't something you roll a fortitude for every round (6 seconds) like you are expected to do with this rule.
Fatigue should be as well something, a fighter has to cope with. Sure, as a fighter you won't be fatigued as quickly. A normal fight doesn't often last longer than some rounds, let's say up to a few minutes. A fighter's fatigue would only become important in large scale battles where fights go on for hours... And in those situations one would switch to mass-combat-systems including fatigue and morale.
As I said, Barbarians have to deal with it. They release all their energy at once in a tremendous burst of rage that lasts x number of rounds (depending on level and constitution score).
You are correct that fighters do not deal with fatigue, but frankly a fight that goes on for hours is impossible. Generally a combat round of 6 seconds takes about 5-15 minutes of real time, by the time everyone has explained what they are doing, and the inevitable arguments from the cowards who want to absolutely sure they are doing the right thing. A combat that takes hours would take days and days to play through.
So the curse of the magi should really be something that isn't weighing on one particular class too much.
I'm really surprised that variant rule made it through playtest myself. Even a casual glance shows that its unbalanced. I wonder if it was meant to be a core rule, and since the playtesters didn't like it, it was kept as a "variant" one.
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
If you truly want the "variant" that'll work better than the Curse of the Magi, check out the feat Reserves of Strengthon page 86 of the DLCS ;)
Reserves of Strength, that's right. I'd mentioned Reserves of Energy, which is of course not the right name for it. I'm going to blame lack of sleep for that mistake...
Cheers,
Cam
I use a slightly tweaked form of the variant in my game and Miralathas, a first level silvanesti wizard pc, is managing to deal rather well. the players love the unique flavor it adds to the game, even if it is unbalancing.
In the end, it's just a variant and you're the omnipotent dm; if you don't want the Curse than don't have it and if you do then discuss it with your players and see what they think. You might be surprised, in my opinion it depends on what aspects of the game they like- rolling the dice or developing a rich, romantic and truly heroic character (which involves overcoming the odds and other disadvantages).
Originally posted by Silvan_of_Eldamar
You might be surprised, in my opinion it depends on what aspects of the game they like- rolling the dice or developing a rich, romantic and truly heroic character (which involves overcoming the odds and other disadvantages).
Thats my view on it. As I've said before Dragonlance isn't about the same things as regular D&D is. So, this really isn't that mich of a unbalancing rule.
As someone who briefly ran an Age of Despair game, here's what I used to represent spell fatigue (we'll keep the name though):
Curse of the Magi
Upon casting an arcane spell, the spellcaster must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) or suffer 1 point of subdual damage per level of the attempted spell (minimum 1 point). This special skill check can fail upon the roll of a natural 1.
Originally posted by Eidolon
Curse of the Magi
Upon casting an arcane spell, the spellcaster must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) or suffer 1 point of subdual damage per level of the attempted spell (minimum 1 point). This special skill check can fail upon the roll of a natural 1.
This would work fine in D&D 3.5, with only one change - subdual damage is now nonlethal damage. Not a bad option, Eidolon!
Cheers,
Cam
Same applies to sorcer just make it all 6 spells perday they can cast, and don't add cha bonus.
example: 7th lvl wizard can cast 4 1st lvl spells normally without the int bonus. No longer suffers the effects of fatigue from casting 1st lvl spells. Even if he uses all his avable slots.
Why I think this should be added is. At the end of Cronicles 3. Raistlin is casting all sorts of spells with no problem. 20th lvl wizard by then mastered every lvl so he is without fatigue, but becomes fatigue at the end of legends book one. But I think that was due to the major spell he cast for being master of the tower.
Anyways throwing ideas out so wizards/sorcers don't seem too weak.
Originally posted by The Soulforged
As a very simple way of handling it, I was thinking of giving WoHS characters the ability to know and cast (once per day) a single spell of his specialized school that is one level higher than the highest level spell he can cast in exchange for imposing the Curse of the Magi on all WoHS characters.
That was in an attempt to maintain balance (which the CotM deffinitely doesn't) without complicating things any.
i'll use this variant with two exeptions: 1; the check is a concentration check, and 2; primal sorcerers do not sufer the CotM
Curse of the Magi:
Due to the strain of spellcastin, a wizard who has exhausted his daily spell slots is fatigued until he can get 8 hours of rest.
This way you don't hit hard on wizards and allow them to go all blast-a-roo in combat, but once they have used up all their spells for that day, they are fatigued and will remian fatigued until they can properly rest.
Our wizard players (myself included as NPC) like it and it gives that extra "fighters must protect the wizard without spells" edge.
For example we just got into a fight with four salamanders. i used a spell of my own design: summon Para-Elemental and summoned an Ice Elemental and used it to wipe the floor with them (chill metal against fire beings is a naasty naasty thing). However, the exhaustion of the spell has my wizard "hanging back near the entrance to the cave, the heat and strain of summoning the Ice elemental have left him momentarily tired." Which of course means that I'm NOT charging over to the bridge to fight what we are sure is a Red Dragon. I'm hanging back out of harms way!
See the major problem is that you are sacrifing a lot WITH NO GAIN! The Barbarian gets fatiqued, but he get some serious bonus before that happens! And Raistlin, who was the only mage character who had the serious fatique that everyone wants to copy though he is the only mage who I can find who has it (yes others get "tired" but they can still think and act normally, they are just out of spell energy.... WOW! just like how the 3.5 Wizard works... they cast all their spells and can't cast more... ammazing!). But Raistlin has a huge benefit: Fistandulious (sp?!). This man is full of important information (i.e. the lecture on the Dragon Orbs in Dragons of Winter Night; allowing Raistlin to control Dragon Orbs; take over the Tower of High Sorcery; you know making him super powerful which most regular mages wouldn't have been able to do!).
What i see happening is the opening move on a campaign against those of us who like the spell casting classes. We are hampered by low hit points, low saves, low BABs, almost no weapon selection, no armor, and a few paltry spells at lower levels, somewhat matched at higher levels. To make magical items to help our casting costs an arm and a leg in steel coins, and also Exp Points which DELAYS our going up levels. Maybe not by much, but it would get noticable if you made enough scrolls to actually make a difference.
Now to the point of this little rant:
The Curse of the Magi is, I believe, a device designed by some poor person who has never had the experience of playing a mage, or had an abusive DM when he or she did so. Abuse tends to travel down from one DM to a new DM.
Rather then getting mad, what we should do is an Intervention! I say we all go down to WotC headquarters and buy this person a nice cup of tea and tell them that we care about them, that we love them, and that we want to help!
I think whoever said that this is a variant rule because the playtesters didn't like it was right, but this poor person felt no love from the playtesters so insisted on its inclusion.
BUT DON'T WORRY! WE ALL LOVE YOU! And as the Chronicles showed, love can conquer all evil: even evil unbalanced rules! SO everyone say how much you love the DLCS design team so this one person won't feel unloved and will wash away the need to abuse!
Rosisha, who actually loves the DLCS team for doing the product, even the one person who did the Curse of the Magi Rule. I forgive you!
I like the idea of taking sub dmg. But I think it should still be a fort save. Even with the curse of the magi that comes with the book it is not really all that un-balancing. Put a 7th magi up against a 7 th lvl ftr and see what happens, the magi is gonna win. Then do it with the curse of the magi. The magi is still probally gonna win. Mages are so damn powerful. I have also noticed that the DLCS spells are powerful for the lvl. Look at Palin's Pyre and Dalamar's Lightning lance.
Originally posted by Rosisha
The Curse of the Magi is, I believe, a device designed by some poor person who has never had the experience of playing a mage, or had an abusive DM when he or she did so. Abuse tends to travel down from one DM to a new DM.
Rather then getting mad, what we should do is an Intervention! I say we all go down to WotC headquarters and buy this person a nice cup of tea and tell them that we care about them, that we love them, and that we want to help!
I think whoever said that this is a variant rule because the playtesters didn't like it was right, but this poor person felt no love from the playtesters so insisted on its inclusion.
BUT DON'T WORRY! WE ALL LOVE YOU! And as the Chronicles showed, love can conquer all evil: even evil unbalanced rules! SO everyone say how much you love the DLCS design team so this one person won't feel unloved and will wash away the need to abuse!
Rosisha, who actually loves the DLCS team for doing the product, even the one person who did the Curse of the Magi Rule. I forgive you!
Actually, I designed the original rule... I also designed all the initial spells in the DLCS and AoM, wrote the chapters on magic in both books, and regularly play wizards...including the wannabe White Robe Solamnic Farm Boy in Jamie's campaign (when we actually have time to play it ;.;)
Gotta tell ya, wizards are my #1 love...which is why that's a Variant rule. It's a rule that was put in to fit with the original "flavor" of Dragonlance, long before everything was reduced to "NEED MORE CRUNCHY." ;) Wizards aren't supposed to be walkin', talkin' spell factories... that Curse of the Magi, while harsh, encourages the wizards to use their spells sparingly and wisely instead of flinging meteor swarms right and left. ;)
Granted, I wrote that in 3.0 and some of the text was tweaked around, but in the end, I'll take the blame for this one ;) Perhaps it was a subconscious dig for havin' done all that work on the Gnomish Invention Creation rules ;.;
Christopher
Hehehehe hey if you like the rule great, but I really don't see that it is necessary. My wizard doesn't throw spells around left and right. He considers his actions very carefully and only casts spells at need (though that last battle, against the Salamanders, I probably should have cast some more as two of our players were knocked unconcious for a bit defending me while I picked and choose which spell to use). When I do finally act I am a relatively minor addition to a fight, one that can tip the balance if used correctly however (i.e. summoning a ParaElemental of Ice against fire creatures was sheer brillance. It used the special ability Chill Metal before wandering away into the ether disarming two of our opponents. Our Druid took the other two and chill metaled their weapons. Without weapons we were able to keep them at bay and actually inflict damage against them, which was nice). However in most cases I am lucky if my wizard even gets involved. My spells tend to border on defensive spells, or illusion/divination spells. Actually our sorcerer is probably the most likely to "throw spells around" but usually doesn't because she needs to save her magic for when it is desperatly needed. Like when the guy sitting across the chasm turns into a red dragon and kills us all. We're a dead party, but it was late and we ended the game before the final humiliation
And as I have said by looking at the limitations already on spell casting, a wizard has to use their spells intelligently. Any wizard who wastes their two spells a level on nothing but combat spells is a moron and one that will easily be countered by an intelligent DM. I have very few combat spells. The ones I do have I researched on my own when I finally felt the need for them. Most of my spells I look at as problem solving spells, spells that can be used to solve otherwise unsolvable problems (i.e. using a Tenser's Floating Disk to levitate our thief into a position to use his crossbow to backstab the main bad guy, which killed him outright in one hit which let me have access to his spell book.... good times that!).
If I ever had a game where the players had nothing but attack spells I would split the game into three encounters, the first would be deadly, and the wizard would blast their way out of it. The second would be a little less deadly bringing out the last of the wizards spells, and hopefully absorbing the spells of the clerics, then finally I would have them meet the bad guy and before they get killed off have them rescued by a low level party that simply looked for a back door, found it undefended because of the rucus the first party made, so they looted the place, realized there was still a fight came to join it, win it, and make the players feel like fools.
Thats the way to handle that sort of thing, not annoying rules which make people think throwing limitations on an already well balanced and limited class is a good idea!!!!! That thought is almost as scary as letting a Kender take the place of Paladin in the ranks of the God's, and there is no way we would contemplate that now woudl we?!
Rosisha, about to be lunch for a Red Dragon!