Blood Sea Isles
Larger population too than I expected for the backwater of the Blood Sea. Every city is of "Large City" size.
Hopefully though this is an abridged version of the Blood Sea Isles description... correct? That's a pretty short regional history, and very few Major Geographical Features. I mean, it doesn't even mention the mountains of Argon's chain.
Plus, I'm confused at how Kothas relates to the empire. Is it a seperate nation? A client state? An independant nation? If the latter two, who rules there? What is their organization? If the first one, why was it mentioned as being a feudal kingdom?
The description is not abridged. =( The short regional descriptions were one of the biggest complaints I've had (except the minotaur Int penalty)
Mithas and Kothas are the two Kingdoms of the Minotaur empire. While technicaly they are two seperate kingdoms, they are both ruled by the same emperor, and for all intents and purposes seem to function identicly.
I mean, look at the Moonshae Isles in the Forgotten Realms book. It has a fraction of both the population and geographical area, yet there is probably twice the information. That is despite the fact that Moonshaes are a minor part of the current forgotten realms and the Blood Sea Isles are the area with the core storyline. Who is in charge of Saifum? It's a republic... a republic of what? Merchants? Farmers? Fisherfolk? Privateer adventurers? Viking-esque barbarians? Where did they come from? Are the people the last remnants of Istar? Ergothian settlers? From Taladas?
I mean, there isn't anything in this geography chapter that I wouldn't know by reading the original modules, except for the fact that the minotaurs are starting to invade Silvanesti.
If I was to grab this setting information alone and write adventures from it, it wouldn't even resemble what Richard A. Knaak is writing about. Plus, it would practically be writing from scratch. All I know is that there are raiding pirates and minotaurs here. I know nothing about the recent coup attempt, I know nothing about the prison camps, I know nothing about the importance of the arena to minotaur culture, I know nothing about the size of the army and the importance of the imperial fleet. I don't even know who frickin Emperor Hotak is.
I thought this was a new age of dragonlance. Except all I see is a bunch of variant rules that are unbalanced or unneccessary and no geographical information. What about the promise that we wouldn't be led around by the nose by the novels anymore? What in the hell do you think is going to happen if we have to rely on the novels for setting information? New era of dragonlance my ass.
The only way I can make the DLCS useful, is by refusing to buy any novels. I'm not going to wait forever for a novel based on a particular area to come out so I know what's there. I'm certainly not going to back and revise everything afterwards. Hell, now I even regret waiting for the DLCS.
So whenever you see a writeup of mine, I don't want to hear any crap about how it isn't canonical with the novels. I'm never buying another one. If I decide to stay with the dragonlance setting, I'll keep up with the gaming materials (and perhaps the Key of Destiny adventure), but I'm going to be making a complete break with the shared world. I have to in order to get any work done at all.
I'm rather sad that I'm going to have to do this. The whole charm of a shared world, rather than a homebrew world, is that you feel like you are part of something bigger. However, with no base information to build up from, there is no possible way to have a shared vision. Thus, I'll be an irrelevant part of something bigger, because the novels will dictate what is in the fantasy setting, as well as what is going on in the continuing plot.
Do you understand what I'm saying? I can run a plot that runs paralell to the plots of the novels, but only if we are running down the same track. If the novel determines the setting info however, then we are not running in the same location, much less side by side.
The geography chapter does not meet my requirements.
Hmm... yep I'm calm enough to post this.
But yeah, i expected a lot more out of this chapter. Or at least a nice fold out map.
Oh wait, people forget about that.
Never mind, continue with yer complaints
Christopher
Originally posted by ferratus
The geography chapter does not meet my requirements.
Then the whole damn book should be burned, right?
Good Lord, man...doesn't anything positive come out of your mouth?
Ansalon is a continent that is filled with tons of geographical info. So much so, in fact, that it would be impossible to cover it all within the main sourcebook.
Chris mentioned that there will be a new Atlas. I think you guys will find the details you crave in there.
The fact is, we shouldn't have to wait for the atlas to get the basic geographical info. The atlas should be to go beyond the basics and get into the details. Things like topography, population spread, ethnography, specific encounter tables, where the smaller towns and villages are.
I don't need tons of geographical info in the geography chapter of the DLCS. I need enough info that I can say in a general way I know what is there.
Frankly, what I particularly don't understand is that you followed the template of the FRCS almost exactly, but didn't bother to include the information that the FRCS has under those headings. Why couldn't we have as much geographical info in the DLCS as FRCS had inside its pages? I mean, you only had half the nations to cover that the FRCS did. You both had the same number of pages available to you originally, and I know you didn't have any of your geography chapter cut.
Yet, you didn't cover each of the nations individually with the care and attention that the FRCS did. Why not?
So I'm gonna have to rewrite the entire geography chapter myself to make it playable until the Atlas comes out in 2005 and 2006. Based on the DLCS, this is what the Blood Sea Isles look like:
Mithas is a half-barbaric land filled with minotaur pirates. The "Emperor" of Mithas rules over nothing of great import, but adopted the title out of jealousy towards the superior and genuinely powerful empire founded by Minotaurs on the continent of Taladas.
The minotaurs and humans of Kothas ignore this empty bluster by the Mithrian minotaurs, and engage in constant infighting among themselves, with human and minotaur warlords clashing with every spring thaw.
Now, does this sound anything like Richard A. Knaak's books? Of course not... but hey, it is all entirely canonical. That's why I have to break with the novel continuity. I cannot simply wait around forever for all the meaningful information I should have had in the DLCS (and which is in the FRCS) to be fed to me peicemeal. I could have waited for the variant rules, but I cannot wait for the geographical information.
Originally posted by ferratus
Plenty positive comes out of my mouth. I have paid many compliments to the DLCS.
The fact is, we shouldn't have to wait for the atlas to get the basic geographical info. The atlas should be to go beyond the basics and get into the details. Things like topography, population spread, ethnography, specific encounter tables, where the smaller towns and villages are.
I don't need tons of geographical info in the geography chapter of the DLCS. I need enough info that I can say in a general way I know what is there.
Frankly, what I particularly don't understand is that you followed the template of the FRCS almost exactly, but didn't bother to include the information that the FRCS has under those headings. Why couldn't we have as much geographical info in the DLCS as FRCS had inside its pages? I mean, you only had half the nations to cover that the FRCS did. You both had the same number of pages available to you originally, and I know you didn't have any of your geography chapter cut.
Yet, you didn't cover each of the nations individually with the care and attention that the FRCS did. Why not?
So I'm gonna have to rewrite the entire geography chapter myself to make it playable until the Atlas comes out in 2005 and 2006. Based on the DLCS, this is what the Blood Sea Isles look like:
Mithas is a half-barbaric land filled with minotaur pirates. The "Emperor" of Mithas rules over nothing of great import, but adopted the title out of jealousy towards the superior and genuinely powerful empire founded by Minotaurs on the continent of Taladas.
The minotaurs and humans of Kothas ignore this empty bluster by the Mithrian minotaurs, and engage in constant infighting among themselves, with human and minotaur warlords clashing with every spring thaw.
Now, does this sound anything like Richard A. Knaak's books? Of course not... but hey, it is all entirely canonical. That's why I have to break with the novel continuity. I cannot simply wait around forever for all the meaningful information I should have had in the DLCS (and which is in the FRCS) to be fed to me peicemeal. I could have waited for the variant rules, but I cannot wait for the geographical information.
The basics of geography are there. In as much detail as any found in any of the previous "core Dragonlance" books, and in as much detail as that found in the FRCS. There was no way to fit in the amount of geographical information that you apparently wanted, particularly as we had to deal with making the book primarily a "crunchy bits" book and geography is not considered "crunchy."
Our Atlas is on the schedule already, due out in 2004. Not 5 or 6. Yes, our Atlas is "canonical" and meshes with both the novels and with the RPG. It is your right, as it is the right of any DM, to freely add or change whatever they want for their home games. More power to ya
Heck, as a teenager, I redesigned Ravenloft from the ground level up because I didn't like the way they were taking it. Doing that got me prepared for the job I now have ;)Christopher
EDIT: *grumbles* Stupid typing too fast.
And I will grant you one concession...I am also a bit dumbfounded at the lack of any continental map. Not that I need one...but for new players...how are they gonna know what is where?
Originally posted by Stormprince
The basics of geography are there. In as much detail as any found in any of the previous "core Dragonlance" books,
I'll agree with that
and in as much detail as that found in the FRCS.
No. Would you like me to go over the differences? In the FRCS, the major cities of the core areas are given their own paragraph. The regional history is not 2 three sentence paragraphs. Even countries such as Lantan, a minor, minor nation of even less importance than the Moonshaes... is given a larger paragraph than you gave Mithas and Kothas put together. I know who rules the Moonshaes, I don't know who rules Mithas, Kothas, or Saifum.
There was no way to fit in the amount of geographical information that you apparently wanted, particularly as we had to deal with making the book primarily a "crunchy bits" book and geography is not considered "crunchy."
Geography makes or breaks a campaign setting. If you take a look at the FRCS, you'll see that it is very rules-lite. There are some regional feats, a few alternate races, some prestige classes. I don't begrudge you those things in the DLCS as well. The fact is you made a deliberate design choice to place alternate rules about setting detail. That is exactly the opposite of what FRCS did, and exactly the opposite of what I wanted.
I'm afraid I also cannot wait until 2004. That's an entire year away. In order to design any adventures, whatsoever, I have to start now. Otherwise I'm languishing for a year talking about centaur artwork. Shoot me now.
It is your right, as it is the right of any DM, to freely add or change whatever they want for their home games. More power to ya
Then I might as well have a home-brew world. The whole thing that makes a shared world fun is that it is a shared experience between many. Sure there are variations on a theme, but we should all be speaking of the same setting when we are on these boards. Right now, the only way we can do it is if we are exhaustive completists, and I don't think that's fair... or a good business strategy. You want people in and talking about the setting as soon as possible.
Originally posted by ferratus
I'll agree with that
No. Would you like me to go over the differences? In the FRCS, the major cities of the core areas are given their own paragraph. The regional history is not 2 three sentence paragraphs. Even countries such as Lantan, a minor, minor nation of even less importance than the Moonshaes... is given a larger paragraph than you gave Mithas and Kothas put together. I know who rules the Moonshaes, I don't know who rules Mithas, Kothas, or Saifum.
Geography makes or breaks a campaign setting. If you take a look at the FRCS, you'll see that it is very rules-lite. There are some regional feats, a few alternate races, some prestige classes. I don't begrudge you those things in the DLCS as well. The fact is you made a deliberate design choice to place alternate rules about setting detail. That is exactly the opposite of what FRCS did, and exactly the opposite of what I wanted.
I'm afraid I also cannot wait until 2004. That's an entire year away. In order to design any adventures, whatsoever, I have to start now. Otherwise I'm languishing for a year talking about centaur artwork. Shoot me now.
Then I might as well have a home-brew world. The whole thing that makes a shared world fun is that it is a shared experience between many. Sure there are variations on a theme, but we should all be speaking of the same setting when we are on these boards. Right now, the only way we can do it is if we are exhaustive completists, and I don't think that's fair... or a good business strategy. You want people in and talking about the setting as soon as possible.
*bang bang*
Ya know, no matter what I say, you've jumped in and made your judgement call.
Sorry for that.
As they say, can't please all of the people all of the time.
Welcome to the publishing world of a small game company. The DLCS is the core book of the campaign setting, not the only book coming out. It is not the WoT campaign setting. It is not Midnight. Nor is it Warcraft. More than ANY other setting out there, we not only had to deal with our license, but also with some of the most diehard fans in the entire industry. Fans who have been disappointed so many times that now they expect to be disappointed. Some, I think, actually go out of their way to find some fault to justify their disappointment.
I look at the DLCS and I see a LOT of things that were cut. Things that have been mentioned and things that have not been. Do you know what it's like as a writer to see your work cut to fit the publisher's image of the book? I can see exactly where things have been changed, where things have been removed entirely. Yet, despite all of that, I cannot help but feel a fierce sense of pride in the book. It was an effort of 6 months non-stop working, of dealing with incredibly tight deadlines and with dealing with the spirit and the rules of the license.
Do I wish that there was a poster map? You're bloody well right that I do. We were told that it was supposed to have one. We didn't find out until we got our copies at Origins that it didn't. Do I think that the maps that are in the book are woefully inadequate? No, I don't. I think that they could have been better, and there have already been some errors that just a cursory glance has caught, but it has just driven me to make sure that the Atlas goes that much better.
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
*bang bang*
Ya know, no matter what I say, you've jumped in and made your judgement call.
Sorry for that.
As they say, can't please all of the people all of the time.
Welcome to the publishing world of a small game company. The DLCS is the core book of the campaign setting, not the only book coming out. It is not the WoT campaign setting. It is not Midnight. Nor is it Warcraft. More than ANY other setting out there, we not only had to deal with our license, but also with some of the most diehard fans in the entire industry. Fans who have been disappointed so many times that now they expect to be disappointed. Some, I think, actually go out of their way to find some fault to justify their disappointment.
I look at the DLCS and I see a LOT of things that were cut. Things that have been mentioned and things that have not been. Do you know what it's like as a writer to see your work cut to fit the publisher's image of the book? I can see exactly where things have been changed, where things have been removed entirely. Yet, despite all of that, I cannot help but feel a fierce sense of pride in the book. It was an effort of 6 months non-stop working, of dealing with incredibly tight deadlines and with dealing with the spirit and the rules of the license.
Do I wish that there was a poster map? You're bloody well right that I do. We were told that it was supposed to have one. We didn't find out until we got our copies at Origins that it didn't. Do I think that the maps that are in the book are woefully inadequate? No, I don't. I think that they could have been better, and there have already been some errors that just a cursory glance has caught, but it has just driven me to make sure that the Atlas goes that much better.
Christopher
Hey Christopher thanks for working on the material that will give us DL for 3.0/3.5. I appreciate it immensly even though I don't have DLCS yet, and it might be Sept. before I can afford it.
Thank You
Dominick
Originally posted by Stormprince
*bang bang*
Ya know, no matter what I say, you've jumped in and made your judgement call.
Sorry for that.
As they say, can't please all of the people all of the time.
Oh, of course not. Frankly, the only ones you should be concerned about is your wallet. I'm just some guy in the middle of nowhere, and one fan among many. While the design choice may not please me, it certainly may please others.
I was talking about this with a friend of mine just this afternoon, as I expressed my confusion as to why I seem to be the only one who is really excited about what is going on plotwise in dragonlance outside of the novels. When DLCS and AoM broke, I expect everyone to be babbling about what is going on here, or here, or there. Certainly, that's what I'd be talking about. That's the information I really want to pump out of people. (I still don't have a population of Flotsam btw.)
The average dragonlance fan seems to be a different animal though. They want to know the stats of the HotL. They want to know how what the art looks like. They want exhaustive rules on gnomish inventions. They want to know the racial abilities of minotaurs and irda, and what the knights of Solamnia or Wizards of High Sorcery look like.
As much as I hate to say it, the direction you took with the book, of putting rules variations above setting detail, was probably the correct one. It still does not please me however. In fact, I'm downright disappointed. However, it is better for one to be disappointed than to alienate your core demographic.
Myself, I like to have adventures where my players can roam around the world and cry havok. They decide where they want to go, and what they want to do. Since adventurers have a lot of gold and muscle, they do great things. I also enjoy, as an immature fanboy who should find something more important to with his free time, writing up adventures and locations and plastering it up on the internet. As a consequence, I need an extremely meaty geography chapter, and you can see why I consider it the most important part of the book.
The average dragonlance fan and dm is probably less free-spirited. The DM likes to tell a story, and tell it a particular way. So since the DM likes to construct a carefully crafted story that his players "run through" (rather than players running him) a geography chapter is less important. The story will be what he needs it to be. For the players, they probably want their characters to reflect the characters they've seen and read about in the novels, because of their adoration for the titanic heroes of Krynn.
So yeah, to sum up. I'm not pleased, most of your current fanbase probably is. ;)
Nor is it Warcraft.
Dragonlance may not be Warcraft, but Warcraft is Dragonlance.
A huge war, followed a few decades later by a demonic invasion? Death Knights? Gnomes with seige weapons and flying machines? It's like dragonlance.... only not a huge mess of contradictions and false starts. You all know how much I like things to be neat.
More than ANY other setting out there, we not only had to deal with our license, but also with some of the most diehard fans in the entire industry. Fans who have been disappointed so many times that now they expect to be disappointed. Some, I think, actually go out of their way to find some fault to justify their disappointment.
True that. I'm not sure if I'm a diehard fan. I only came into the fanbase because I liked "Dragons of a Fallen Sun". So when I went dumpster diving on ebay and the used sections of gaming stores, I wasn't disappointed. Rather, I kept seeing stuff that substandard, recycled, and badly designed. But the potential was always there. So I was kept interested. If Sovereign Press hadn't got the license and the DL novel line died... I'd probably be the only happy dragonlance fan out there. Not happy because I mean Dragonlance any ill will, but because I'd be the only one happily puttering along coming up with new adventures and geographical information. I wouldn't have to worry about working against anybody, and my vision would be the shared vision. After all, like I said, the average dragonlance fan isn't as hot and bothered about geography as I am.
I look at the DLCS and I see a LOT of things that were cut. Things that have been mentioned and things that have not been. Do you know what it's like as a writer to see your work cut to fit the publisher's image of the book?
Nope, can't imagine that. I could imagine if I was your publisher though. There would probably be enough conflict and sparks flying that we'd get a sitcom offer from Fox!
You realize though that even if nothing got cut, my complaints would still be the same. The issue isn't about whether or not you worked hard, but the decisions you made which were not the decisions I would have made. Even if it had all of its pages, I'd still think that the geography chapter wasn't well done, and as a consequence the book doesn't meet my requirements.
Do I think that the maps that are in the book are woefully inadequate? No, I don't. I think that they could have been better, and there have already been some errors that just a cursory glance has caught, but it has just driven me to make sure that the Atlas goes that much better.
Yeah, about that. Is it Thea Harbour or Zhea Harbour in Southern Ergoth? I remember this has been used both ways in earlier products, so I'm not surprised it showed up on your Southern Ergoth map. I just want to know which is the correct spelling.
The only reason i haven't been jumping all over it? No one else cares. My excitement for DL has been ignored so long that these days i don't even bother in public forums. But man, when i saw the plains of dust entry, and the entry for claren elian, and the entry for nordmaar, and khur, my campaign meter just broke.
You don't know how much i'm anticipating the beginning of the school year, when my players will come back, and my campaign in port balifor will resume.
Not to mention the pages and pages of material on Lantern that i've been sitting on waiting to see what the DLCS brings.
The geography chapter starts on page 136 and endson page 183. Not what i was hoping for, but damned good compared to what we have. almost. The fifth age boxes and time of the dragon were the benchmark, and this book comes close in a lot of regards.
After this book, the standings are as follows. Best map- Tales of the Lance. This will never be topped.
Best cultural data- Time of the Dragon. Dude, ansalon cries out to be even in the same city as the level of detail that Taladas got.
Best Timeline- DLCS all the way. This new core book finally consolidates all of dragonlance into one easily referenced product. Best innovation ever.
But lets ignore all this.
[hardcore fanboy mode]
What do I want to see?
MAPS. Lots of em. Big ones. Poster size. Gridded maps. city maps. ocean maps. star maps. bumpmaps. bitmaps. whatever.
But you say there is a full atlas coming out. Thus, that desire is sated. But this new atlas, it has to be usable. Adding extras to the back, like a nice gridded perforated mat, or a template for ariel battle maps, or templates for temples and buildings of krynn, maps of trade routes, explanations of the various economies and countries, populations, racial breakdowns, languages, dialects, religious leanings, skin tone... You know, things an atlas would have.
Oh, and a must for any atlas- A full global map of krynn, ala otherlands.
---
What else do i want to see? Well, that race book, but its coming. The magic books, but they're coming. The god books. right, we get the idea.
But seriously, i want more than the standard superficial books. I want details. I want to run a dragonlance game anywhere on krynn and be able to have information for me. I want to know what is in the depths of nordmaar, or where the mischta are now, or what the sirrionic cults of mount nevermind did when they were stranded in tarsis after the cataclysm, or why lord soth has different armor than normal solamnics.
I want to know tactics. How do solamnics act in battle?
I want to know governments. I postulated in an article i posted that Solamnia was run by a republic of knights.
I want to know populations. where did the KoT come from?
I want to know how civilization evolved pre and post cataclysm. what do people look like? how did they reform governments? 300 years is a long time.
I want to know how solamnia managed to be such a huge swath of the continent. what happened to kharolis? Throt?
I want to know why the goblins of sikket hul arent good anymore. Or if the kender are still afflicted.
I want to know about Mercy and northern ergoth.
I want to know about the blood sea. Saifhum. The dimernesti.
What about the sky? are the only stars in the constellations?
What effect do moon orbits have on tides? How was that changed when the one moon came?
What about the overlord planet? Will we see others invading from there as well? It could be rad.
I trust that cam and andre will cover all the cool monsters, so that isnt an issue.
but you know what i, in the depths of my deepest desire, really want?
i'm sure you do.
come on, guess.
....
Yup.
TALADAS
And if you want me to put my money where my mouth is on any of the above, i'll be glad to.
[/hardcore]
yeah terry, i know how you feel. I've been there and still am. But when the masses want raistlin, who's going to listen to the voice that wants feal thas or verden leafglow?
oh, and just for you-
Flotsam (large town, pop 3,785)
Flotsam is a large, dirty town on the edge of a bay sheltered by cultivated hills. The city's port is cupped in a valley and is composed of rickety wharves leading out to deepwater moorings. The eastern front of flotsam is edged by a stony bluff, upon which the town's few respectable buildings rest. Flotsam fairs only slightly better than Port Balifor. Nearly half of the town was destroyed by Malystryx. Since the great red dragon was slain, the people of Flotsam have slowly been rebuilding their home.
(oddly enough, silvamori is bigger than flotsam, with 4,549 people)
And in the book, its Thea Harbor.
Originally posted by talinthas
The geography chapter starts on page 136 and endson page 183. Not what i was hoping for, but damned good compared to what we have. almost. The fifth age boxes and time of the dragon were the benchmark, and this book comes close in a lot of regards.
Mmm.. I'd be very surprised overall if the DLCS does not exceed the information given in the 5th Age line. Other than Northern Ergoth in "Heroes of Defiance" and Khur in "Heroes of Hope" the geographical information was severely lacking there too. Plus, the 5th Age had the serious problems of their info being scattered across a dozen very small boxed sets. DLCS at least will have everything there in one place.
After this book, the standings are as follows. Best map- Tales of the Lance. This will never be topped.
We still need a political map. As for the topography of the Tales of the Lance map.... there is too much desert for me. I prefer the map in the original modules, where Khur is a steppe rather than a desert, and Nereka is mountain valleys instead of desolate badlands. This is especially true now that we have the desolation.
Best cultural data- Time of the Dragon. Dude, ansalon cries out to be even in the same city as the level of detail that Taladas got.
Oh yeah, Taladas is the best dragonlance sourcebook pre-3e. Bar none. You know an unexpected side benefit to this whole geography shortage is that I can define Mithas and Kothas in such a way that it doesn't infringe on the glory of the Minotaur League of Taladas. After all, if there is nothing about legions, fleets and a powerful ocean-spanning empire... there doesn't have to be. Then I don't have the plot duplication. Of course, I'd have to ignore Richard A. Knaak's novels.
I want to know governments. I postulated in an article i posted that Solamnia was run by a republic of knights.
I want to know how solamnia managed to be such a huge swath of the continent. what happened to kharolis? Throt?
I solved the problems about Solamnia by postulating that Solamnia was a federated republic of city states and their surrounding territory. What bound them together was their loyalty to the knighthood and a system of laws based on the Measure. The knights didn't rule per say, but they weilded a lot of power through their military might and their control of their manorial estates. The senate and Lord Mayors of the cities controlled money and population.
Wasn't Kharolis and Throt covered in the geography chapter of the DLCS? If not, I know where it is now. See issue #1 of the Torbril.
oh, and just for you-
Flotsam (large town, pop 3,785)
Flotsam is a large, dirty town on the edge of a bay sheltered by cultivated hills. The city's port is cupped in a valley and is composed of rickety wharves leading out to deepwater moorings. The eastern front of flotsam is edged by a stony bluff, upon which the town's few respectable buildings rest. Flotsam fairs only slightly better than Port Balifor. Nearly half of the town was destroyed by Malystryx. Since the great red dragon was slain, the people of Flotsam have slowly been rebuilding their home.
Ah! Excellent. So it was as I suspected, I'll need some immigration. Luckily Ansalon is packed with lice-ridden refugees, so all they have to do is come off the boat. Of course, I still have to wait for Age of Mortals, but since half the buildings are destroyed, I don't have to worry about them being in my way. I can plop and entire elven neighbourhood down and not displace any landmarks. Getting it back up to a large city of about 12,000 will take about... 10 years? 20? I'll have to see how much I want to fast-forward other parts of the campaign world. I need to make room for Desolation Elves, Seekers, Kender senators in Ergoth, Lemish breaking away from Solamnia, and the rise of two dieties. Better make it 20. ;)
As for Kharolis, I'd have to see what the DLCS said about it. I always assumed that it wasted away when the steppe of Southern Ansalon turned into the plains of dust.