Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 14:38:28	Most of us here are aware that the Dark Sun cities are based off of ancient earth cultures. I have been able to piece most of them together, but I am hoping that the group here can help to figure out what some of the other cultures are based upon: - Urik: ancient Babylonia / Sumeria - Raam: ancient Egypt - Nibenay: ancient China / Angkor - Balic: ancient Greece - Draj: ancient Inca / Aztec / Mayan - Gulg: ancient Congo - Halfling: ancient Polyponesian [sic] What would you say the cultural basis for the following cities are: Tyr {Roman ?!?} Guistinal Eldaarich Kurn
#2 gab Jul 29, 2003 14:54:34	This thread could interest you (from the DSML): http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0201A&L=dark-sun-l&P=R276
#3 Grummore Jul 29, 2003 15:03:44	If you go to the old DS board, there is much information about this. It's as been debated very much. The old board link is on the DS board main page.
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 15:06:49	Thank you much. I'm just trying to get "dictionaries" of the respective cultures (knowing that each of them are unique) to add a little more flavor to the world.
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 15:12:12	As far as Gulg goes, 'oba' is a Yoruba word. The Yoruba come from Nigeria rather than Congo, I think. Raam always struck me as more Indian than Egyptian. I think that Kalidnay was more along those lines.
#6 Kamelion Jul 29, 2003 15:37:22	Well, apart from the Angkor/Thai parallels in Nibenay, one obvious reference is Michael Moorcock's Melnibone - a decadent empire of sybaritic nobles ruled over by an enigmatic sorcerer-king... In fact, did anyone else spot the little picture of the White Wolf himself (complete with Stormbringer and 8-arrowed sign of chaos) towards the back of the DS3e Core Rules? Just what was that all about? Athasian sunbathing as a way to combat albinism?? ;)
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2003 19:59:15	Wow, Kem, your right. I hadn't gotten around to reading the spells yet so I hadn't noticed it. I blame it on Brom since he did tons of artwork for Michael M.'s Eternal Champion reprints, and many of his Elric pics fit the same style he used for Dark Sun. Granted, that pic in the core is all Elric. OOooOoo . . . ideas . . .
#8 Kamelion Jul 29, 2003 23:56:47	Heh heh heh. I can see it now... DM: "You see a tall, slender figure with pale skin, slanting brows and an ethereal quality about him. He appears to be carrying a black metal weapon of some sort..." PC: "An elf? Out here on his own? With a steel weapon?? Ha! Lemme at him!" (Famous Athasian last words #17894...)
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 4:52:18	Umm, Balic always got me more as the Roman Empire than Greek... But it's just me...
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 9:42:52	Sorry everybody for opening a can of worms here. I guess talking amongst off-line friends we all came to the same conclusion about the societies that they represent. As I mentioned, I wanted to see what the "consensus" was so that I could incorporate their languages into my campaign for a more realistic feel.
#11 korvar Aug 04, 2003 13:58:53	Some people have put Tyr as Roman, but apart from having a Senate, there doesn't seem anything very Roman about Tyr. If anything was to be ancient Egyptian, Tyr seemed the place to me. Looking at the pictures of Tyrian buildings from the original boxed set, it does look quite Egyptian to me. Doesn't have the monumental architecture or the statue fetish, though. Tyr's a pain. All the rest (of the occupied cities, at least) have one-line descriptions (It's Babylonian/Greek/Aztec/Indian etc) but not Tyr. Even if the one-liners are a huge simplification, they're not bad. But Tyr's quite the anomaly.
#12 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 04, 2003 14:04:42	I could have sworn Raam was pretty difficult too.... the language is Egyptian, but the culture is based on something different I thought. Tyr is, IMHO primarily Greek with Roman influence, while Balic is primarily Roman with Greek influence. Urik is a "well, duh" one IMHO, being Babylonian, Draj is Aztec, and I forget the others offhand... Only really remembered the ones that were key in my campaign (that the group had been in for a period of time).
#13 korvar Aug 04, 2003 14:07:59	I'd have to say Raam is fairly "duh" too It's Indian - the strong caste system if nothing else.
#14 zombiegleemax Aug 04, 2003 15:15:43	Originally posted by Korvar I'd have to say Raam is fairly "duh" too It's Indian - the strong caste system if nothing else. After thinking about it, I'd have to agree that the culture is Indian, but the language sounds Arabic. Although I'm not really an Arabic speaker.
#15 zombiegleemax Aug 04, 2003 19:44:28	Culture in the Tyr Region is very Roman. Aspects like every city having gladitorial arena and slaves being able to buy there way out of slavery is Roman in tradition (Greek too). I would say that all cultures in the Tyr Region are based off of Greco-Roman (classical civilization), but has slight differences and each city was designed with a certain "Theme" to set them apart. Nibenay's palaces are decorated like Indian temples, but they reside in there own section like Chinese imperial cities. Merchants on Athas follow medieval ways. They belong to a house and not the state or the noblilty. Most cultures place restrictions on their merchants for fear their power will grow.
#16 korvar Aug 05, 2003 2:38:50	Originally posted by Ral of Tyr Culture in the Tyr Region is very Roman. Aspects like every city having gladitorial arena and slaves being able to buy there way out of slavery is Roman in tradition (Greek too). I don't recall much about slaves being able to buy their way out of slavery as a given thing. Where did you find that?
#17 Grummore Aug 05, 2003 8:29:44	The only way to get out of slavery as a gladiator was to become so incredible (win many game) that you would become a potential slave to be set free. Either because you gathered so much gold for your patrons and they doesnt want to see their popularity go down in the eyes of the population by keeping it slave or in the stade, the population asked for mercy and redemption or something like that.
#18 zombiegleemax Aug 05, 2003 12:50:17	It was in the Wanderer's Journal under under slaves. It said that though any member of society can be a slave, nobles and merchants can usually buy their way out of slavery.
#19 korvar Aug 05, 2003 13:01:52	Of course, that may well mean "bribe the [expletive deleted] off whoever's enslaving you" Anyway, I don't think two Roman things (gladiatorial games and possibly being able to buy your freedom) is enough to make the whole Tablelands Roman...
#20 zombiegleemax Aug 05, 2003 15:15:43	There are a lot of other things that are Roman like the absolute power of one man and a noble council, but these things are also prevalant in other cultures as well. Roman culture in fact is not very Roman. It is based of off Estruscan and Greek cultures, which is based of off Phoenician and Egyptian culture which is influenced by ancient near eastern cultures (Sumerian). Roman culture is a collection of all the previous cultures. I think it would be safe to assume that the Tyr region is classical civilization. I think the author of Dark Sun had at least general knowledge of ancient cultures, then while he was writting it all out, he started to add new ideas that would fit in a world such as Athas. Culture would have to be wrapped into the Tyr Region. One important difference in the Tyr Region is that civilizations on Earth have not had to deal with other intelligent beings (Elves, Thri-kreen etc.). They have had to deal with magic (only preceived in their ruler though).
#21 korvar Aug 05, 2003 15:25:26	That's a problem with almost all fantasy gaming The addition of other races isn't that much of a problem - most of the mythical races are actually based off different cultures meeting each other. It's not that much of a stretch from "Roman meeting Briton" to "Human meeting Dwarf". Magic and - particularly in Dark Sun - psionics... now that changes things! Large swathes of the population (enough so that every PC can start with a Wild Talent) have Psionic abilities. The police force (Templars) pretty much all have access to powers (well, assuming their SK is one of the lucky ones!). From the perspective of a "normal" person living in an Athasian city, you can pretty much forget about (non-Templar) Clerical or Arcane magic, but even without them you see (what we would call) magic on a daily basis. What's that going to do to a civilisation? I find myself thinking of the Mutants in Total Recall. Imagine Tyr as a whole city like that... maybe the mutations are going to be less spectactular, but stuff like that's mentioned in the books and modules. Hm. Ramble. No point in sight. Ah, well
#22 zombiegleemax Aug 06, 2003 13:33:22	Note the first time in history when humans, our ancestors, met another breed of humans, the Neaderthals and within a thousand years, Neaderthals were extinct and humans replaced them through out Europe. Same with **** erectus (Java men) in Asia (though, no one knows how long it took for them to go extinct. Psionics turns Dark Sun into the realm of metaphysics and any and every new age book should explain what happens to civilizations that are psionic (I am thinking of all those 60s books and movies about the future were people have psionic powers and all that stuff).
#23 zombiegleemax Aug 07, 2003 9:45:21	I do agree that psionics, clerics, and wizards will definately have an effect on how the population can and will survive.
#24 zombiegleemax Aug 07, 2003 10:02:02	Originally posted by Quarion I do agree that psionics, clerics, and wizards will definately have an effect on how the population can and will survive. Especially that the raiders can also have access to these powers...
#25 zombiegleemax Aug 07, 2003 10:38:58	Originally posted by Nagypapi Especially that the raiders can also have access to these powers... Yes, much to the dismay of or victims, er.. I mean players, yeah players, that's it. :D
#26 zombiegleemax Aug 12, 2003 0:18:35	Urik is more fitting as Assyrian, even Assyria's warlike culture. I have been reading a lot of ancient history books so here are some guidelines for Athasian culture (I found these aspects in a lot of cultures). Civil Servants that work for the king can rise to high places of power, even beyond the nobles (the King trusts them). Nobles: very social, can read and write and play music. They usually have a large house in the city and several estates in the countryside. They may also have a villa vaction home. There estates are managed by a commoner or an educated slave. Commoners: Most are poor farmers and eat just enough to survive. Fathers are the head of the household. Marriages are arranged (that is one thing I rarely see in Dark Sun, characters with family ties (most start the game as wandering loners). Girls marry young and move into their husband's household. Artisans: Nobles prize them. Slaves: Usually captured in war. They may buy their freedom and have a special way to identify that they are slaves (branding, shaved head etc.). There is always state slaves that help with civic duties such as fire watch and temple upkeep. State slaves are usually treated the best. If there is a large number of free commoners, slavery is less common. If commoners are rare, there are large numbers of slaves that work estates. That's all I can think of right now.
#27 korvar Aug 12, 2003 1:19:12	I'd disagree on one point, that makes Athas different: wheras most commoners in our history were poor farmers, in Athas, most of the poor farmers are in fact slave farmers on Noble estates. Almost all of the areas fertile enough to farm (at least those areas close enough to a City to be safe) are under the control of Nobles. Most commoners, as in free people, are artisans or craftspeople. There will be subsistence farmers out there, as well as herders, but their existence will be very precarious without the protection of the cities.