So, essentially, a temptation to defile could be in order. I am open to suggestions, feel free to post your old favorite rejected ideas, but do keep in mind that this must be a *minor* benefit. In the desert, no one can you see defile, so the -20 to Bluff checks is not a big thing in the big picture. It is a situational modifier.
While I might not respond to ideas posted, I'll read all suggestions.
EDIT: This decision is not a result of persistent nagging, but a result of actual playtesting.
EDIT: Do feel free to fry each other's suggestions ]
What about making Efficient Raze open to all wizards, but state that its use requires defiling?
And what about that Fast Raze feat that allows defilers to use Int mod instead of Dex mod for initiative? Or (instead of making it a feat) make it a class feature when defiling, like the defiling radius - small but flavourful.
Nuff said from me on this...
(Edit: just got woken up at 06:00 by ridiculous ship announcement about breakfast, so came back for a swift edit. Grumpy, grumpy Kamelion...)
...Casting spell like this is always defiling.
Simple and efficient...
Example (and it's a bad one, I know, but it's late, sue me):
Defiling Bull's Strength
Duration: 2 rounds/level
Defiling Bull's Strength is as the standard spell of that name, but it's duration is effectively doubled because of the extra power of defiling.
If you tie defiliers advantages to spells then you don't run into balance issues because preservers A) can access them too and B) stay the same as the PHB Wizard.
I would formalize the 'addicted to defilling' mechanics just a bit more, maybe just some sort of acknowledgement that it is an addiction and should be treated as such.
Metamagic that adds 1 level, takes one full round, if it adds 2 levels, then it is 2 rounds and so on. Defilers reduce this to 1/2, minimum full action (instead of the full round).
Using this opton burns the spell memorized AS WELL as a spell of the level needed. Ie extended bull STR would drain the bull STR slot and a 3rd level slot at your choice.
Also, limit the number of times per day you can use this ability. INT mod per day sounds fine to me.
Yeah, in the middle of the desert no one sees you defile, but then if you are alone, you could've also memorized those metamagic feats into the spell before, right?
Edo.
Originally posted by player1
If you change casting of your spell to full-round (not full-round action) you get +1 increase in caster level.
Casting spell like this is always defiling.
Simple and efficient...
But.. who would be tempted by this? It still makes no sense ROLE-playing or ROLL-playing wise.
Edo.
Originally posted by Otakkun
But.. who would be tempted by this?
Anyone who wants extra +1die on damage or +1 to dispel/SR checks.
It still makes no sense ROLE-playing[/b]
You take more time to take higher amount of energy then needed for spell.
or ROLL-playing wise.[/b]
In effect, spell becomes as good as you were one level higher.
System could be tweked by changing duration to full-round action, or changing CL bonus to +2.
Or enchanced by some feats.
EDIT:
This is not considered to be standard Defileing.
This in Enchanced Defileing. You take more time, you get better spells.
Defilers gain +4 Int for max spell level and bonus spells but take subdual damage from casting. I think that this is fairly balanced. It means that the defiler 'class' as a whole is no more powerful than the PHB wizard (I don't think) but there is a strong incentive for individual wizards to turn to defiling, particularly if they do not have a lot of natural talent.
Originally posted by Star Gazer
I rather like the idea of tying defiling (well, hardcore defiling at any rate) to spells. Preservers always preserve, defiliers always defile, but with something like the Raze spells, preservers can defile and defiliers can defile more effectively... since they are 'metamagic' spells, rather, spells that affect other spells, they are easy to balance, and lots of them can be added. In addition to the 'raze' type spells, I would like to see a selection of spells that require you to defile. Give them just a bit more power than standard spells and include a blurb about a VA member being caught with them in her spell book being in a lot of trouble and yer all set.
Example (and it's a bad one, I know, but it's late, sue me):
Defiling Bull's Strength
Duration: 2 rounds/level
Defiling Bull's Strength is as the standard spell of that name, but it's duration is effectively doubled because of the extra power of defiling.
If you tie defiliers advantages to spells then you don't run into balance issues because preservers A) can access them too and B) stay the same as the PHB Wizard.
Nice idea, but the problem with that is that on Athas a wizard usually not enjoy wide variety of spells. Her spells are very eclectic, as it is gained from shady sources, spelbooks from enemies, from old ruins, etc. It is not sure that the defiler can get this spell, not to mention that the 'basic' verison is more common (as it can be used by both preservers and defilers). And no spell - no use of this mechanic.
The same problem was notified and corrected when Path Dexter and Path Sinister feats was changed to give bonus to spells in a given school instead of spells in a spell list.
Originally posted by Kamelion
Just a quick bash at the dead kank...
What about making Efficient Raze open to all wizards, but state that its use requires defiling?
That's a good one, I also suggested that on the old board.
And what about that Fast Raze feat that allows defilers to use Int mod instead of Dex mod for initiative? Or (instead of making it a feat) make it a class feature when defiling, like the defiling radius - small but flavourful.
The elves would stick a small, but flavourful blade into your *** for this... ;) As usually they have better DEX than INT.
Originally posted by player1
If you change casting of your spell to full-round (not full-round action) you get +1 increase in caster level.
Casting spell like this is always defiling.
Simple and efficient...
A good one! It doesn't make defilers too more powerful, as for example a Fireball can't do more dmg than 10d6. Defilers just reach this limit a level earlier. And with other spells like mage armor or summon monster it just makes the duration longer.
But I would not use the casting time increase.
"Quantity over quality; the modern approach."
Grouping together two metamagic feats into a Defiling package.For example Heigthten Spell, and Maximize Spell into one two-option-feat that can only be used if a wizard defiles.
Letting defilers juice up the damage from the defiling radius, putting in spell levels to increase damage, and give other effects to the actual act of defiling. Letting defilers "tie-in" spells to the defiling radius that seems appropriate. - Casting a Charm Person while simultaniously tying-in an illusion spell to cover the actual defiling act.
- Tying in Touch of Fatigue (new 0-level to 3.5) to fatigue victims of defiling.
- Flare (0-level spell)
- Daze (0-level spell)
- Many more...
Make some metamagic feats better or cheaper if the wizard uses them to defile. Give defilers more defiling energy if he actually kills something with defiling. That's my words, and I thank the overcouncel for making DS3ed happen.
Originally posted by Afghan
take subdual damage from casting.
That's a mighty good idea. Subdual damage from defiling.
Could be a great balancing factor for more oomph.
-Efficient razing is a built in effect, not a feat. It's just the bonus for defiling.
-Preserving requires a spellcraft check in infertile terrain or worse to avoid doubling casting time (my favorite), or even simpler, just drop the spellcrafting check
-A simple +1 caster level effect for defiling, or -1 to save checks
-a bonus on concentration checks as you don't have to concetrate as hard.
Actually, after much thought, and actual playtesting I have come to the conclusion that the Defiling Radius is not the advantage I have calculated it to be.
World no longer . . . makes sense
Head . . . spinning
Just when I thought I was out . . . they pull me back in!
*faints*
I'm a big fan of Xeros's ideas, combined with the subdual dmg. idea by Afghan.
So -
+1 caster level when defiling
efficient Razing built in
bonus to concentration (+2 sounds about right)
x subdual dmg. to the defiler when casting (related to level of spell).
Sculpt Defiling
Requirement: Concentration: 6 rank
When you defile, you can change the form of the defiled area from the standard circle. The new area has to be the same size in square feets (best to measure in 5x5 feet squares, and the caster rearranges the squares on the grid), has to be one continous area (its border could be drawn with one continous line), but can contain spots (empty squares). The new territory has to include the square the defiler stands at the time of casting. If this feat is used the casting time is slowed by one step (similar way when PHB sorcerer using metamagic feat) due to the control needs to be extended by the defiler. This feat can be choosen as a wizard bonus feat at the appropriate levels.
Focused defiling
Requirement: Agonizing radius, Efficient Raze and Sculpt Defiling feats, Concentration: 12 rank
When you defile you can choose one living being as source and snuff out all the energy needed for the spell from that being. The source have to be in line of sight of the defiler, and no farther than 20 feet. The source gain as many negative levels as the level of the spell cast (1 negative level in the case of 0th level spells). The DC to regain these neagtive levels is 10+level of the spell cast. If the source doesn't have enough HD or level to survive the energy gathering (has the same or less HD or level than negative level gained this way) it is dead, turned to ash, and the defiler loose the spell due to broken concentration. If the source survives the energy gathering it can be reused for further spells as source, but due to the stacking of negative levels the probability of loosing the spell is higher. The spell casted this way is considered as cast on an infertile terrain (the terrain modifier is zero). The feat Efficient Raze can not be used in conjunction with this feat. If this feat is used the casting time is slowed by one step (similar way when PHB sorcerer using metamagic feat) due to the control needs to be extended by the defiler. This feat can be choosen as a wizard bonus feat at the appropriate levels.
You can always work in a corruption mechanic but, to my mind, that ends up forcing people to roleplay characters that they don't want to. Corruption should be roleplayed rather than rolled.
Does there need to be a reason why wizards choose to be defilers rather than preservers or is it enough to say that all wizards start off as preservers and end up as defilers when they fail their corruption check? That kind of feels wrong to me.
Originally posted by Afghan
It looks like a lot of the mechanics here would make preservers substantially more powerful than PHB wizards if they have the option to defile.
You can always work in a corruption mechanic ...
Have you read the DS3 rules? There in fact is a corruption mechanic in place. A preserver does have the option to defile, but the repercussions are severe, and operate on a per casting basis. Each time you do it, you risk losing your ability to be a preserver, and slide to defiling permanently.
IMHO the current corruption system is not the best, even within the WotC made guidelines. As defilers loose the ability to preserve the system become a hybrid: it starts with the 'one core class for wizard' conception, but at the end it ends up with two wizard class.
As I see things, there should not be things like this. Not just on DS. Nowhere in a game which dares to call itself _role playing_ game.
Now the changing between preserving and defiling is a game mechanic, but it should be a moral chioce instead. The PHB uses this in the case of barbarians, bards, monks, paladins. If they not held up to certain standards (everybody to her own) and change alignments they can fallen from the class, loose abilities. But the measure to this is _never_ a game mechanic (failed roll) but always a role-playing thing!
In the case of Athasian wizard: she is capable of both preserving and defiling. There is only one restriction: a defiler can not be good. Corruption means to loose good alignment due the using of defiling magic. But the character should not loose the ability to preserve. No logical reason for this. There is no divine power who holds back the spells or erease experience. The character does not loose knowledge. (That would be a go back to 2nd edition with the stupid dual-classing rules). She just simply does not use it. (Except if this is loss intended as an addiction thing, but this one also should be role-played instead of forcing rules.)
See this: if I start a wizard with evil aligment, and I want to defile from the start there is no need for corruption mechanic anyway. An evil character can't be corrupted more. It is not neccessary to make rolls, the results is known from the start. Why the hassle with the rolls?
Another twist: I start an evil preserver. She likes to fry and dominate people, so she is bad. But for that she doesn't have to be turn to defiling magic. A smart killer. Knows the benefits of hidden casting which comes from preserving. And even if she defiles: she is already a devil.
She can't be more corrupted.If I start with a good preserver, who remains on that way, and very environment-friendly: again no need for corruption mechanic. She is an angel.
The only case we need the corruption thing when a good preserver starts to turn to defiling. This one indicates an alignment change sooner or later (corruption). This is the point where the rolls _maybe_ can help the DM and the player to determine where is that point. But this can be only a help, not a governing mechanic. The result has to be come from the DM and the player together as they discuss this thing! If a roll any time supersedes this, that game is not a role playing game any more. There is no rule in the PHB at the paladin how many evil acts can she do before loosing paladinhood, right? You should not include such things in DS then.
Conclusion: the corruption mechanic should be re-tought and handled as a purely role-playing element. Most possibly addiction to defiling should go the same way. It can be mentioned, that if somebody changed alignment due to defiling magic use she can find a druid for redemption, make a quest etc. But no rules and rolls I beg you!
Possibly....POSSIBLY, allow a defiler a spellcraft check with a respectable target number (20 + (spell level *2) maybe, lower if he volunteers to a longer casting time), to be allowed to preserve, if he absolutely had to. It should be physically possible, but not just a simple choice.
Now I say this, and as I type it, I think about it. For instance in tyrian conspiracy, there is a training facility in the mountains with a defiler in it. He's been there for X time training as an assasin....wouldn't the entire complex and more around it be a barren grey patch of land, defiled to within an inch of it's life. So maybe defilers should be allowed to preserve, but only if there is a STRONG temptation to defile, like defiling have a notable advantage. It should also still taint the character somehow.
Yes I know I am being contradictory, no I don't have a better idea right now.
¿Would I be tempted to corrupt myself, to be subject of a -20 on my bluff check (aka no more spellcasting if not in the desert alone), for just a measly (insert rule here)?
If the answer is always yes, then the rule is too powerfull, if the answer if no way in hell, then it is too weak. The idea is to find something that would make you think about it on a pinch.
And I'm not still not conviced on any of the systems presented.
IMHO, Edo.
The idea is to find something that would make you think about it on a pinch.
Exactly. When would it be tempting? Suppose I'm a preserver and I'm out of spells for the day, or I don't have the right material components, or I need to cast a spell quickly. Those situations could be the difference between life and death, and in those situations - a choice between defiling and death - what does a preserver do? Does he risk death and preserve, or does he believe defiling this one time is ultimately for the greater good? I think that is the moral choice that wizards need to be faced with.
As far as the current taint mechanic, I think it works fine. It effectively prevents defilers from preserving which, I think, is necessary. Otherwise, defilers (and preservers) could preserve (or defile) when it was convenient without fear of repercussion.
The mechanic I'm proposing at the moment gives the defiler +4 Int for the purpose of memorising spells. This isn't particularly helpful until you need to cast, say, a 6th-level spell and find that you can't because your Int isn't high enough. At which point, defiling become phenomenally tempting. Fortunately, there's a feat that allows a preserver to gain the +4 Int if he's willing to defile to cast those high level spells.
Now I think that this is pretty close to what's in the literature. Preservers like Sadira and Haakar didn't use defiling magic to gain an extra caster level or whatever. They did it to gain power that was beyond them as preservers.
However, with the subdual damage mechanic, preservers take far more damage from defiling than defilers. If a preserver is routinely using defiling magic he's probably better off as a defiler. The same feat that allows a preserver to cast high-level spells as a defiler allows a defiler to cast low-level spells as a preserver so he can still keep up the pretense. It's an insidious mechanic that doesn't need a corruption mechanic.
Admittedly, a preserver must first take a feat to be tempted but not everyone wants to play a preserver walking the line anyway.
With Sadira (and it's been a long time since I've read the PP so I could be way wrong), I had the impression that she defiled out of necessity. That is, it wasn's something she had planned to do, it was something that she did because in the moment it seemed like the best way to survive.
That said, I'm not speaking in any kind of official capacity here, these are simply some of the musings of someone who's been buried in the system for ages.
One way or another, the wizard class has to be balanced against the core wizard class. You all know this, so that's not an issue.
I am not a fan of addiction mechanics. I prefer the concept of "Defiling and Preserving", rather than the concept of "Defilers and Preservers", and to balance the Act of Defiling against the Act of Preserving.
... however, leaving it at that basically allows to much situational flexibility ... you defile when it's advantageous to do so, and preserve when it's disadvantageous to defile.
There are some low-lying assumptions that have been carried over from DS[12] that I've been keeping with me the whole time, about the nature of defiling, which, while consistant with an amount of established flavor, are inconsistant with a "balanced" system.
I don't find the idea of having defiling take longer to be a bad one, for example, though it does break with the established idea that defiling is supposed to be "easier" ...
There are two basic ways to look at why defiling is supposed to be more powerful:
1) It's more powerful because it's easier
2) It's more powerful because you've got access to more raw power.
The first is held up and exemplified in the advancement table of the Defiler class in DS[12] ... it's easier, you advanced faster.
It was also the idea behind a lot of my earlier systems, which basically made life more difficult on preservers by demanding they take lots-of-time to cast their spells.
Making defiling take longer is definately a different approach, and it's based on the second interpretation above. That interpretation, by the way, does not make the teaching of the Champions seem like a contrived contradiction ... Defiling is not the lesser form of spellcasting, achieved because you don't know any better, but is instead the very different act -- deliberately drawing more than you need.
If you assume that energy is drawn at a consistant rate, than it makes sense that drawing more energy takes longer.
Granted, with that concept of what defiling is, you loose the archetype of a defiler who defiles only because he doesn't know any better (though that archytpe hasn't really been practical since we stopped using a skill-based system.) (Such an archetype, by the way, *is* precidented, and the education of these types of wizards is one of the main purposes of the VA)
When you make defiling become an extra step, it ceases to be a non-good act, and becomes an out-and-out evil act.
Just some musing and thinking ....
Originally posted by Gralhruk
I can't tell from your post, but would preservers need to memorize a few spells that they could only cast if they defile? If that's the case, a preserver isn't going to bother memorizing those spells at all - then he can't use them even if he's tempted to.
Yes. That is a weakness of the system. However, if you read the actual system (it's at http://www.brokenlogic.co.uk/DarkSun/wizards.htm) you will see that the way it's set up, it's one of the few uses for higher level spell slots. You could memorise a 5th-level spell instead of a 6th-level one but memorising a 6th-level one just in case is an equally tempting option. A preserver who wants nothing to do with defiling is unlikely to take the feat in the first place.
As I say, the player has to choose to play a preserver who could be tempting in this system. I don't think that this is a bad thing. In fact, if you want strict balance it's about the only way to do it. Otherwise you're just giving the preserver an option of greater power without anything to balance it.
With Sadira (and it's been a long time since I've read the PP so I could be way wrong), I had the impression that she defiled out of necessity. That is, it wasn's something she had planned to do, it was something that she did because in the moment it seemed like the best way to survive.
I did get the impression, and it has also been a while since I read it, that she did plan at least one of her acts of defiling. I seem to remember she did it to cast a spell she would have otherwise been unable to cast. This fits with the 2ed system anyway of defilers gaining power earlier. My memory could just be shockingly bad though.
what if you gave anyone who defiles a +4 to there concentration cheaks to cast on the defensive along with a +2 to the casters inititive.
Mostly these bonuses are things that at low levels and even into the mid levels would be very usefull but by time you hit around 15th level it should be no problem having a concentratoin bonuse so high that you allways get to cast defensve. and it's not that hard to get a magic item to make up for the inititive.
I still don't see any problems with allowing perserver/Defilers to add metamagic feats on the fly. Possibly requireing one full round for each level the feats effect it by. this is balanced to D&D because there are places on some worlds that are deprived of life in which even the best athens caster would be powerless but which a regualr wizard would be uneffected. (if ya think about it many of the elemental planes are compleatly deviod of life or very close to.)
The elves would stick a small, but flavourful blade into your *** for this... As usually they have better DEX than INT.
Heh heh - yes, they probably would. Avaron's suggestion about giving a straight initiative modifier when defiling would be a better solution.
I also thought about another feat (just called "Raze" or "Basic Raze" or something like that). When defiling, this feat replaces any DC/SR bonuses from terrain with equivalent Caster Level bonuses. All wizards can use it, but its use requires defiling. Maybe a bit too powerful for a single feat, though. Thoughts on this, anyone?
If only Sadira hadn't uttered those fateful words "to cast that spell I would need to defile"!! This would all be so much simpler. Jon, talk about re-opening a can of sink worms!! ;)
Originally posted by Kamelion
If only Sadira hadn't uttered those fateful words "to cast that spell I would need to defile"!! This would all be so much simpler. Jon, talk about re-opening a can of sink worms!!
Did she? That's cool. Or at least that fits the system I'm working with.
Did she? That's cool. Or at least that fits the system I'm working with.
Just finished reading PP and I think that it was in Amber Enchantress, when she is trying to get the Sun Runners across the Canyon of Guthay. She needs to cast some kind of dimensional portal spell to do it and says that she would need to defile in order to do so. I have always seen that line as being at the heart of this debate - that and the fact that she defiles when doing the fast energy-gathering thing. Other than these instances, there is very little that she does in the books that is cannot be reproduced under the current system, imho.
Mind you, if you rule that Sadira has already dabbled with defiling (implied in her early scenes with Ktandeo) then you could always assume that she has picked up a Path Sinister feat or two, and get her a caster level bonus that way.
Heh heh - I do seem to be getting somewhat drawn into this thread. Better scuttle back beneath my mekillot...
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Nice idea, but the problem with that is that on Athas a wizard usually not enjoy wide variety of spells. Her spells are very eclectic, as it is gained from shady sources, spelbooks from enemies, from old ruins, etc. It is not sure that the defiler can get this spell, not to mention that the 'basic' verison is more common (as it can be used by both preservers and defilers). And no spell - no use of this mechanic.
The same problem was notified and corrected when Path Dexter and Path Sinister feats was changed to give bonus to spells in a given school instead of spells in a spell list.
Sorry Nagypapi, but this is not the case. Spells are not hard to come by for wizards on athas, they are no harder than for wizards of any other world. That's a piece of flavortext that people took literally. Messing with spell availability is messing w/ CR and that's a no no. You would be putting wizards at a mechanical disadvantage when compared to the other PCs and that's not fair, just or right. Rationalize this to be because the PC's are 'lucky' in some way or something, but artificiially limiting spell availability is wrong.
So, to reiterate: Tie defiling to spells: quick, easy and above all balanced.
Heh, sorry if I sounded harsh, you touched a nerve on that one.
So, let's make some fundamental changes to the athasian wizard and give each style of casting a balanced set of abilities that strikes to the heart of each one. Defilers should not have a mechanical advantage over preservers. I say we extend the Path feat idea some more...
Why not make defiling similar to the antiweave thingy on FR...
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I'm not much for a corruption mechanic, but I did like the idea of addiction rules. Maybe its just me ;)
I think _becoming_ addicted to defiling should not be a rule thing, it should be an agreement between the player and DM. A role playing thing. Not everybody likes to play an addict so no rule should force that.
However _handling_ an established addiction can include role mechanics. Like the caster should make a Will save or extra concentration check to preserving.
Stargazer, the suggestion about making defiling similar to the shadowweave in FR has been made before and I think the main argument put forward against it was that as it required a feat then it was somehow unbalancing. There was a lot of discussion over the point which I guess won't be repeated here.
The real problem here is always going to be over exactly what constitutes balance as that is the constraint that any athas.org rules are working under but coherent and clear explanations/definitions of what constitutes balance or how this is determind aren't available.
However, balance isn't the only issue because while you're right that the wizard could be changed in a fundamental yet balanced way, the idea of fundamentally changing the wizard doesn't seem to be an allowable option. Essentially the gladiator and templar are new classes so don't change anything, the decision has been amde to go with the 3.5 ranger unchanged and to be honest the Dark Sun bard is really related to the standard PHB bard in name only so they are not seen as fundamental changes.
In Dark Sun though, arcane magic is fundamentally different from other fantasy settings because it has an environmental effect and any rules to account for that are fundamental changes that can't be easily transplanted to other settings - but it is a requirement of the conversion that the athasian wizard is easily transplantable. It's a catch-22 situation and I think the only possibility of solving this would be to get WOTC to agree to relax the requiremnets for the athasian wizard/arcane magic system. Hopefully the class of wizard could stay pretty much the same (apart from some minor modifications) and the change would really be in arcane spellcasting rules. Energy gathering is the core difference between preservers and defilers so if we have a mechanic for handling the speed of energy gathering and the spell effects of gathering excessive energy (+ it's effect on surroundings) then there would be no need to change/add spells (the idea of defiling versions of standard spells just seems overcomplicated to me). The 2nd ed spells&magic book had a spell point system defiler variant which had defilers having a faster energy gathering rate than preservers though preservers could always choose to defile to gain the faster rate and the rules for gathering more energy than was needed for the basic spell were essentially forerunners of the metamagic feats where you could extend duration or other features of the spell by gathering more points (essentially raising the level of the spell). I'm sure a system that was more structured than just free metamagic levels from terrain can be produced that would mirror that and be fairly well balanced but it would be a different system to the standard fantasy magic with no cost system that D&D uses. (I'm playing around with such a system and playtesting ideas at the moment so this isn't just blind hope ;) )
Originally posted by Star Gazer
Sorry Nagypapi, but this is not the case. Spells are not hard to come by for wizards on athas, they are no harder than for wizards of any other world. That's a piece of flavortext that people took literally. Messing with spell availability is messing w/ CR and that's a no no. You would be putting wizards at a mechanical disadvantage when compared to the other PCs and that's not fair, just or right. Rationalize this to be because the PC's are 'lucky' in some way or something, but artificiially limiting spell availability is wrong.
So, to reiterate: Tie defiling to spells: quick, easy and above all balanced.
Heh, sorry if I sounded harsh, you touched a nerve on that one.
Sorry, is it mean that I can find shops in Urik where I can buy some scrolls for coin? Beacause that's the case in other worlds. If you remove that from Athas it becomes a normal world, instead of the low-magic world. Wizards are at wrong end of things on Athas. Of course the wizards receive their normal 2 spell when they level up. Of course they can do magical research, albeit the efforts needed to this are greater (e.g. watching constantly for templars, lynch mobs, etc. In FR that's not an issue.). What I mean that spells come harder is that the external sources are more limited. No shops to buy scrolls or spellbooks. Less amount of other wizards who can be beaten and their spellbook taken. Etc. I took this a bit literally in my campaign. I simply rolled what spells are on a found scroll or spellbook, and not using th eusual things. For example: Magic Missile is a no-brainer in FR or GH, every wizard have it. If you beat a wizard you can be 99% sure that MM is in the spellbook. Not on DS. They can have it, but it is not automatic.
And this is not a role mechanic disadvantage, which has anything to do with CR. It is a setting disadvantage. And as that, it can't be balanced, see the very famous quote: "game mechanic benefits can't be balanced with role-playing/setting disadvantage". It works vica versa, too, doesn't it?
No prob to be harsh, meet me before the building in 5 minutes, we will settle this in no time... ;)
Originally posted by Kamelion
I have always seen that line as being at the heart of this debate - that and the fact that she defiles when doing the fast energy-gathering thing.
I think that I have just thought of a way to incorporate the fast-casting thing into my current system.
The idea is that wizards should be able to 'drop' meta-magic. I'm not sure if this is quite that unbalancing. But essentially it means that a preserver can use a spell slot of a level he could not normally cast to memorise a lower-level spell with meta-magic. Then he can either cast the spell as a preserver, without meta-magic, or as a defiler, with the meta-magic.
Essentially, the preserver can't cast the spell anyway, under my system, but could use the slot to memorise a lower level spell. If the preserver can then use the Amphisbaena feat I describe on my website he can then use that higher level slot to gain the option of meta-magic by defiling.
Did I just make any sense at all?
Originally posted by Star Gazer
Sorry Nagypapi, but this is not the case. Spells are not hard to come by for wizards on athas, they are no harder than for wizards of any other world. That's a piece of flavortext that people took literally. Messing with spell availability is messing w/ CR and that's a no no. You would be putting wizards at a mechanical disadvantage when compared to the other PCs and that's not fair, just or right. Rationalize this to be because the PC's are 'lucky' in some way or something, but artificiially limiting spell availability is wrong.
So, to reiterate: Tie defiling to spells: quick, easy and above all balanced.
I don't think it is balanced. It just shifts the imbalance elsewhere (much like a financial statement from Enron). A defiling spell with twice the duration of a preserving one is a spell with a free level of meta-magic. A wizard with access to those spells is going to be significantly more powerful than a wizard who has to use the normal ones (read PHB wizard). Since the PHB wizard has presumably been balanced against other classes that means the Athasian wizard is unbalanced compared to other Athasian classes which match their PHB counterparts.
Hey Jon, unless you are going to tie defiling power directly to spells, my guess is that you are going to have to change the wizard class from standard wotc. Not that that's a bad thing, but I would like to point out how specious the argument "we have to keep preservers like core wizards' is. I can destroy that argument in four words: Bard, Ranger, Templar, Gladiator. If it were true for even a second that we had to keep wizards 'core' then none of those classes would exist in the forms they do.
Ranger = 3.5 PHB ranger. Templar = new class. Gladiator = new class. Bard = totally rewritten class without spells (as per DS2 bard). Your four word argumentation has failed to convince me.
Originally posted by Afghan
I think that I have just thought of a way to incorporate the fast-casting thing into my current system.
(snip)
Did I just make any sense at all?
I think I am getting what you mean, but could you give a couple of hard examples of this in play? I wanna be sure I properly understand what you mean...
-defiler hindraces: almost impossible to hide spellcasting (-20 Bluff), allies can be the victim of defiling effects (-1 to rolls)
-defiler benefits: special feats to boost defiling, enemies can be the victim of defiling effects
As the defiling radius is both a blessing and a curse, it is situational. But getting the defiler feats costs feat slots, so it is again not a benefit, as it has its cost. That's why I think Jon feel that defilers need a bit extra. Here was a lot of suggestion, but I liked best the Efficient Raze feat (terrain modifiers for spellcasting is one better if the caster defiles), as it is quick and easy. If instead of this we move with the '+1 to caster level' variant we can justify the so many times quoted sentence from Sadira. As this +1 level was enough for her at the ravine for her dimension door spell to reach and last as long as was needed for the elf tribe to get thorugh. More powerful or more complicated benefits lead to imbalance and slowing the game.
On top of that the current corruption system is not acceptable, see my rumblings earlier (main point: in the end we will have two wizard class if defilers loose the ability to preserve).
So how to make me a satisfied customer? Modify the following in the current official magic system:
-give efficient raze feat or +1 caster level as class feature for defiling
-modify the corruption rules as was written: no rolls, corruption means alignment change to evil due to defiling, no loose of preserving for corrupted wizards.
That's all! I tried to think with the head of the athas.org team to find a solution to the issue, hope it helped!
Originally posted by Kamelion
I think I am getting what you mean, but could you give a couple of hard examples of this in play? I wanna be sure I properly understand what you mean...
Okay say we've got a 12th-level preserver with Int 15. This means he's got 2 6th-level spell slots but is unable to cast 6th-level spells. He takes the Amphisbaena feat which gives him +4 Int when working out what level spell he can cast,but he has to defile to cast those spells.
Not wanting to memorise spells that force him to defile, he uses the 6th-level slots to memorise a Quickened Levitate and a Silent Teleport. Now when the ground suddenly opens underneath him he can cast Levitate as a Free Action but he has defile to do so.
Later, he finds himself bound and gagged. However, he can still cast his Silent Teleport but again he has defile, because he cannot cast 6th level spells. On the other hand, if his captors had neglected to gag and he still wanted to cast Teleport he could 'drop' the metamagic. Effectively, it would be as though he used the 6th-level slot to memorise a 5th-level spell. He does not need the defiler Int bonus to cast this so he does not have to defile to do so.
Similarly, if he had found himself with time to spare when casting Levitate he could abandon the Quicken Spell, bringing the spell back down to 2nd-level and he could cast it as a preserver.
(Edit for spelling).
Originally posted by Kamelion
Gotcha - I think. It's an intriguing system (but I have to say that magic systems aren't really something I feel I'm any good at myself...) I'm not sure I follow why a 12th level preserver would be unable to cast 6th level spells, though. And are the metamagic feats you apply in your example "free" or part of the preserver's normal repertoire? I do like the feel of the Int bonus, though. Apologies if I am being obtuse - I'm probably better off back beneath my mekillot in threads like this one...
(Edit for spelling).
The meta-magic feats would be part of the preserver's normal repertoire. But normally he wouldn't be able to use them on spells if they took the spell up to 6th-level.
The reason the preserver can't cast 6th-level spells normally, in this example, is because he doesn't have a high enough Intelligence. Remember, for wizards, they must have an Int score of at least 10 + the level of the spell to be able to use it. If a wizard has spell slots of a level higher than he is able to cast then he as to use them to memorise lower level spells.
Heh - now I really feel stupid! I missed the point about Int 15 in your example. Doh! Makes perfect sense now. Cool idea, Afghan...
The problem is it only really applies to combat spells. I think defiling should be tempting for any spell casting.
How about this
+2 (+3?) initiative, OR +1 caster level effect. Neither I think will break the bank. It reflects either taking the same energy faster, or taking a bit more energy in the same time as a preserver, either reflecting a faster draw of energy leading to the defilement of the plant.
Off hand, are there any non combat spells where caster level has NO effect on the outcome? This is rhetorical I suppose, there are plenty of spells with fixed effect and duration, so this rule does not help them, but I think it's enough to offer an effect none the less, it's a temptation, which is all we're looking for.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
So how to make me a satisfied customer? Modify the following in the current official magic system:
-give efficient raze feat or +1 caster level as class feature for defiling
-modify the corruption rules as was written: no rolls, corruption means alignment change to evil due to defiling, no loose of preserving for corrupted wizards.
The first point could be good.
And, while I understand why you don't want the corruption rules (I don't particularly like the idea either) what is your counterbalance for the completely situational spellcaster? Defiles only when it benefits them, preserves otherwise? (Like, if there's a crowd watching, of if they're taking the Green Test ...)
That's the issue that the corruption mechanic was intended to solve ... to eventually punish the line-walkers who would otherwise enjoy the best of both worlds indefinately
Originally posted by AvaronGansdell
Defileing seems like the dark side of the force quicker, easyer more seductive, requireing less concentration and seemingly greater in power, it seduces the young and those in pain or danger, but older more focused perservers don't seem as likely to go down that path.
what if you gave anyone who defiles a +4 to there concentration cheaks to cast on the defensive along with a +2 to the casters inititive.
Mostly these bonuses are things that at low levels and even into the mid levels would be very usefull but by time you hit around 15th level it should be no problem having a concentratoin bonuse so high that you allways get to cast defensve. and it's not that hard to get a magic item to make up for the inititive.
I still don't see any problems with allowing perserver/Defilers to add metamagic feats on the fly. Possibly requireing one full round for each level the feats effect it by. this is balanced to D&D because there are places on some worlds that are deprived of life in which even the best athens caster would be powerless but which a regualr wizard would be uneffected. (if ya think about it many of the elemental planes are compleatly deviod of life or very close to.)
I am sort of out of this conversation because I dont really like talking mechanic about wizard, since I saaaaww tooooo much different system, but this idea here sound interesting, about the concentration.
a) someone who doesn't care about the ecosystem, but might care about people, friends, family, and helping out (how many decent people do you know that litter or drive big cars etc..., not the best example maybe, but you get the idea)
b) someone who can't help it. They don't have the disipline or know how to be able to preserve. They may want to atone, for which they'd need a druid's help, they may hate the fact they defile, but can't help it.
PS, What's wrong with big cars?
Originally posted by flip
The first point could be good.
I like first point too.
Originally posted by flip
The first point could be good.
And, while I understand why you don't want the corruption rules (I don't particularly like the idea either) what is your counterbalance for the completely situational spellcaster? Defiles only when it benefits them, preserves otherwise? (Like, if there's a crowd watching, of if they're taking the Green Test ...)
In that case the caster is evil or maximum neutral, considered to be defiler. The good wizard preserves, and defiles only in utmost emergency. The counterbalance is the taint. If you want game mechanic counterbalance... well, it is again an interesting thing. First the defiler is suspectible to the spell Defiler Scent. Okay, it is situational again. What about penalty to the social CHA-based rolls? The taint can be felt by others... "Okay, she preserves, but something not feeling right." 2e DS had such penalty for defilers.
That's the issue that the corruption mechanic was intended to solve ... to eventually punish the line-walkers who would otherwise enjoy the best of both worlds indefinately
If you go with the 'one wizard class' setup it is not avoidable. Magic is a tool, the man decides how he/she uses it. The Green Test as a solely measure is also an obsolate thing with that. Something more elaborate should be used, like sending the suspect into a tembo cave and see if she defiles. (The tembo can be an illusion of course.) This is more appropriate anyway I think, to test a candidate long before accepting. A bit ridiculos that the VA simply put a flower before the candidate, ask to cast, and if the flower is ok the wizard is a buddy in the next moment... Green Test can be the part of the tests. A small flower can be hidden in the tembo cave before, and if the candidate defiles inside (safely, she thinks, as rock not turning to ash) they just check the flower afterwards. No flower-no cookie...
Originally posted by Grummore
I am sort of out of this conversation because I dont really like talking mechanic about wizard, since I saaaaww tooooo much different system, but this idea here sound interesting, about the concentration.
The problem with concentration is, that it doesn't need any bonus. I used a 12th level psion as NPC, he had combat manifestation. He never had to roll for manifesting defensively, as with his Concentration skill and the feat he automaticaly did the DCs, even if he would roll 1. The same goes with wizards.
Originally posted by Xeros
You know, I don't think defilers have to be evil. It's traditional, but a defiler could be
a) someone who doesn't care about the ecosystem, but might care about people, friends, family, and helping out (how many decent people do you know that litter or drive big cars etc..., not the best example maybe, but you get the idea)
b) someone who can't help it. They don't have the disipline or know how to be able to preserve. They may want to atone, for which they'd need a druid's help, they may hate the fact they defile, but can't help it.
Point A is the neutral alignment. Defiler can't be good, but she can be neutral.
Point B is not possible with the 'one wizard class' setup, as every wizard knows both method by the start. Except if the 'preserving needs a feat' idea had been used than you would have been right. This guy would be the wizard without the feat. But the current setup is not this.
A bit back to point A: this way leads to the ancient big point of alignment in the game: the character defines her alignment, or the alignment defines the character? The first one is a more realistic setting, with places for shades of gray. Evil fights evil in this version. The second one is more like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings type. More heroic. Evil unites against the good in this version, no internal struggle. Both is acceptable style, but I think for DS the first one is better. So if somebody starts defiling, her alignment will change.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
That was always my take on things as well and why I was never fully comfortable with the druidic atonement and why I'm more in favor of an addiction mechanic rather than corruption. This view came from many of the innitial adventures for DS that had most any NPC wizard you came across as a defiler, unless he was one of the very select few involved in the veilled alliance.
I think if somebody is a wizard she needs all the power she can get to survive. If she has to cast a spell (a bad situ already) she will need all the extra edge defiling gives. So she will grab every opportunity to get more power: she will take the defiling feats!
It makes sense in 3e, too, that the NPCs are defilers mostly. As most of the NPCs are enemies, fight happens. So they will also try to use maximum power to win => they defile. If somebody sees them casting it doesn't matter any more anyway. Only the moralist (good alignment) says: I dont' defile even than. But it is rare. So most of the enemy spellcasters will defile in fight.
Originally posted by flip
And, while I understand why you don't want the corruption rules (I don't particularly like the idea either) what is your counterbalance for the completely situational spellcaster? Defiles only when it benefits them, preserves otherwise? (Like, if there's a crowd watching, of if they're taking the Green Test ...)
That's the issue that the corruption mechanic was intended to solve ... to eventually punish the line-walkers who would otherwise enjoy the best of both worlds indefinately
I don't really see a problem with walking the line if you've paid for the privilege. The spirit of my solution is that whilst preservers can always defile, they only get any benefit from it if they take a feat to do so. Defilers gain greater benefit from defiling but sacrifice the ability to preserve in order to do so.
Originally posted by Afghan
spirit of my solution is that whilst preservers can always defile, they only get any benefit from it if they take a feat to do so.
So they would in fact, never ever do so (defiling). What does that gain you? We are trying to devise a mechanic that would tempt a perfectly average preserver to use defiling magic. Taking a feat rather commits you to the path. We need something that will dangle a lure in his face, urge him to try it, just once.
Originally posted by Xeros
So they would in fact, never ever do so (defiling). What does that gain you? We are trying to devise a mechanic that would tempt a perfectly average preserver to use defiling magic. Taking a feat rather commits you to the path. We need something that will dangle a lure in his face, urge him to try it, just once.
No we're not, for a number of reasons.
First off, not every player will want to role-play the 'tempted preserver'. You don't need to build the possibility into the class itself. It should be an option available to the player who wants to explore that aspect of the preserver. It doesn't need to be a fundamental aspect of the class.
Secondly, you can't without unbalancing the preserver. Either the preserver gains all the benefits of PHB wizard class without defiling - in which case any extra advantage the preserver could gain by defiling would make him more powerful than the PHB wizard. Or you balance the option to defile against the PHB wizard - in which case the 'straight' preserver is disadvantaged.
Using a feat to represent the extra advantage the preserver would get from defiling strikes me as about the only way to balance the 'pure' preserver and the 'tempted' preserver.
Defiling, under my system, is far more tempting than the others presented here. This is probably what allows me to get away with delegating preserver defiling to a feat. It opens up really significant levels of power to the wizard without making the defiler 'class' overall very much more powerful. The temptation is much stronger because you are talking about allowing wizards to use spells of a level they would otherwise be unable to use. It also keeps the temptation up... if you are a preserver who is defiling regularly you are better off as a dedicated defiler.
On the other hand, the 'sugar' of +1 caster level or an Initiative bonus or whatever really doesn't strike me as enough, certainly if you are using a corruption mechanic. If you are not using a corruption (to some extent, even if you are) it's just a freebie.
Originally posted by Xeros
So they would in fact, never ever do so (defiling). What does that gain you? We are trying to devise a mechanic that would tempt a perfectly average preserver to use defiling magic. Taking a feat rather commits you to the path. We need something that will dangle a lure in his face, urge him to try it, just once.
That would be the efficient raze feat as class feature for wizard: the terrain modifier is one better if she defiles. Same if you go with the '+1 caster level if the wizard defiles' idea. To get more powerful things the wizard has to commit itself => take the defiler feats.
Originally posted by Afghan
No we're not, for a number of reasons.
First off, not every player will want to role-play the 'tempted preserver'. You don't need to build the possibility into the class itself. It should be an option available to the player who wants to explore that aspect of the preserver. It doesn't need to be a fundamental aspect of the class.
It is not class aspect, it is the way magic works on Athas. If somebody doesn't want to play a tempted preserver, well, she should use only preserving magic than! No temptation, no corruption.
Secondly, you can't without unbalancing the preserver. Either the preserver gains all the benefits of PHB wizard class without defiling - in which case any extra advantage the preserver could gain by defiling would make him more powerful than the PHB wizard. Or you balance the option to defile against the PHB wizard - in which case the 'straight' preserver is disadvantaged.
Currently the preserver=PHB wizard. The option of defiling has it's benefits as well as hindraces, it doesn't make the wizard more powerful without any negative effect.
Using a feat to represent the extra advantage the preserver would get from defiling strikes me as about the only way to balance the 'pure' preserver and the 'tempted' preserver.
Defiling has (and has to have) instant advantages for any wizard, or there would be no temptation. But then you are right, the feats the way to go of the more inclined defilers.
Defiling, under my system, is far more tempting than the others presented here. This is probably what allows me to get away with delegating preserver defiling to a feat. It opens up really significant levels of power to the wizard without making the defiler 'class' overall very much more powerful. The temptation is much stronger because you are talking about allowing wizards to use spells of a level they would otherwise be unable to use. It also keeps the temptation up... if you are a preserver who is defiling regularly you are better off as a dedicated defiler.
Yes, your temptation version is more powerful, but I think it won't go through the balance gurus. They screamed on the '+1 caster level' idea at the start, what would they say for the use of more powerful spells than level allows? ;)
On the other hand, the 'sugar' of +1 caster level or an Initiative bonus or whatever really doesn't strike me as enough, certainly if you are using a corruption mechanic. If you are not using a corruption (to some extent, even if you are) it's just a freebie.
Regarding the 'sugar' see my prev. comment. Regarding corruption: it was not a question to have corruption. The question was how to handle it: with game mechanic or with role playing. The second question was what corruption means: loosing preserving ability, or change of alignment.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Currently the preserver=PHB wizard. The option of defiling has it's benefits as well as hindraces, it doesn't make the wizard more powerful without any negative effect.
Defiling has (and has to have) instant advantages for any wizard, or there would be no temptation. But then you are right, the feats the way to go of the more inclined defilers.
No. The tempted preserver thing is not that key. The important thing is that the straight preserver and the straight defiler are balanced. These are, and always were, the key archetypes.
Essentially, 'straight' preservers and 'straight' defilers are different classes. They have to be balanced against each other and against the other classes. There should also be a real distinction between the two 'classes'. There should be reasons for playing a defiler rather than a preserver just as there should be reasons for playing a fighter rather than a wizard.
So allowing a preserver to act as a defiler is similar (not the same) to allowing a wizard to temporarily gain the advantages of a fighter. You don't give that away for free. Even if you introduce a corruption mechanic or something else the option is still quite valuable and enough to make the preserver more powerful than the PHB wizard. And if defilers don't have a significant advantage over preservers anyway, then there is no temptation to defile.
Yes, your temptation version is more powerful, but I think it won't go through the balance gurus. They screamed on the '+1 caster level' idea at the start, what would they say for the use of more powerful spells than level allows?
But my version doesn't do this. You haven't understood it. It doesn't allow you to cast more powerful spells than your level allows. It only allows you to cast higher level spells than your Intelligence allows. You still have to have the spell slot available.
Defiling isn't more powerful. The defiler's potential is not substantially greater than the preserver's. It's just that the defiler can realise that potential more readily.
Do you understand now?
It only allows you to cast higher level spells than your Intelligence allows
Not that there is any kind of inherent flaw with your system, I just don't think it is focusing on the right track. I still think the system should be an off stage system, which is what yours is. Its a fine system, just not particularly appealing though.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Its a fine system, just not particularly appealing though.
Have you read the full system? The link's on the first page of this thread.
If you can, I'd like some constructive feedback on why it doesn't appeal. I'm fairly pleased with it, you see. I think it captures the right feel. But I'd like to know why it doesn't work for you.
Defiling Metamagic
Prereq: One metamagic feat
Benefits: Choose one metamagic feat you know. You can use this feat while casting spells without memorizing it to your memory, and without using spell-levels as long as the terrain modifiers allows it (see below). The caster must defile to cast the spell for this feat to function.
You cannot exceed your normal level limitations due to spells being cast.
+0 Desolate & Barren
+1 Infertile
+2 Fertile
+3 Abundant
Special: You can gain this feat more than once. Every time it applies to a new metamagic feat.
It seems to me that the athas.org team supports the idea that defilers should have the choice to become more powerful, but preservers can hold on to versatility as their primary function.
I can't think of any mechanical way of doing this, but I'm sure it'll pop up if that ever becomes nessecary.
One more thing; I don't understand the initiative discussion.
Is it possible to give defilers an initiative boost at all? Doesn't that conflict with the simple initiative system in 3d ed?
Why should a defiler be faster at swinging weapons then preservers?
Keep up doing good things athas.org, and I'll keep on liking it
This thread is determining what X is.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
The way the feat works, since is boosts the ability to memorize spells of higher level than your intelligence would otherwise allow, a preserver taking this feat would have to knowingly opt to memorize a few spells to defile with.
Well you could always memorise spells you can cast with optional meta-magic. You can cast the spell without meta-magic as a preserver or with meta-magic as a defiler. And, remember, wizards don't have to memorise all their spells at once. As Sadira did, the wizard could discover that he needs to cast a spell that he can only cast by defiling and then sit down a memorise it from his spellbook.
But, yes, it does take a little more premeditation than other systems proposed. On the other hand, it makes defiling significantly more tempting and manages to maintain balance. It is a trade off though, I grant you. I don't think this is a bad thing, in some ways. It means that the player is going to agonise more over it. It also means that if the player just doesn't want to explore that aspect of the preserver character, he just wants to play a hero for whom the end does not justify the means, he is not penalised for doing so.
This is a backstage method and hence, one I'm not fond of. Also, the feat neglects the fact that if a wizard is of high enough intelligence, then there is no need for the feat, no boost to the defiler or preserver. Its a feat that removes a stat based handicap for having to low of an intelligence. So a wizard with a high intelligence score would see absulutely no benefit by taking this feat at all.
So, a wizard who has sufficient talent and dedication to master the complexities of preserver magic doesn't need to defile? This always struck me as the point of defiling magic. It is the easier route to power. It draws the jealous and the greedy. It's easier, not more powerful.
A defiler with high Intelligence will still get bonus spells, mind.
Originally posted by Afghan
No. The tempted preserver thing is not that key. The important thing is that the straight preserver and the straight defiler are balanced. These are, and always were, the key archetypes.
Essentially, 'straight' preservers and 'straight' defilers are different classes. They have to be balanced against each other and against the other classes. There should also be a real distinction between the two 'classes'. There should be reasons for playing a defiler rather than a preserver just as there should be reasons for playing a fighter rather than a wizard.
So allowing a preserver to act as a defiler is similar (not the same) to allowing a wizard to temporarily gain the advantages of a fighter. You don't give that away for free. Even if you introduce a corruption mechanic or something else the option is still quite valuable and enough to make the preserver more powerful than the PHB wizard. And if defilers don't have a significant advantage over preservers anyway, then there is no temptation to defile.
I see your point of view, but I don't agree, especially with your fighter-wizard analogue. The wizard doesn't gain any new abilities if she defiles and I think that's the key. That limits her powerfulness in case of defiling. She just does magic a bit other way, destroying environment, exposing herself as wizard to every bystander, hurt enemies and allies in the vicinity and gaining some boost to her current spell. But this trade-off is decided on a case-by-case (or I should say spel-by-spell) basis. That's why if this trade-off is balanced than the wizard in general becomes balanced, and not just the 'straight' versions of it. The shades of grey between white and black will be there, too. If the athas.org team had moved with 'two-wizard class' option, than you should have balanced the two endpoints only. But this is not the case.
And yes, defiling is more powerful than preserving, giving a boost to the spell instantly. This is a small but important advantage. There are bigger advantages to gain with defiling, but for that the wizard should dive in the dark arts of defling more, i. e. get the defiler feats. To make a counter to that empowering I suggested the neagtive modifier to CHA checks, that would be the long-term disadvantage for defiling.
So in short term (ocassional) defiling giving short term benefits (spell boost, hurting enemies) and short term hindraces (ash, hurting allies). On long term the real defilers enjoy further benefits (defiling feats) and further hindraces (CHA rolls with penalty), altough this part is not in the official conversation.
But I do think the sort of ground we're going over here is ground that we've been over before. There is a fundamental problem with the temptation mechanic. And it is this, it is either not balanced or not tempting.
Either you are giving a preserver the option to gain an advantage or there is no reason to defile. I am not saying that this is a bad idea. I think that for a Dark Sun d20 game having the preserver voluntarily forgoing that power would work very well. But it isn't Dungeons & Dragons.
A preserver is a wizard who has chosen not to defile. That is the point of being a preserver. To then say, the only way to get the best out of a preserver character is by defiling is a bit like saying the only way to get the best out of a paladin character is to commit evil acts. And I'm sure there are systems that present just that dilemma to paladin's but they are not D&D. D&D doesn't penalise characters mechanically for having scruples.
There are two types of preserver you could play, the scrupulous preserver for whom the ends do not justify the means, or the tainted preserver who will defile when really pushed. If a player wants to play the second type then the system should allow him to. But a player shouldn't be penalised for playing the former type either. The two have to be balanced. The only way I can see to do that is by providing the benefit of defiling through a feat.
You know, I could have missed something. I'll listen. But how do you balance the 'pure' and the 'tainted' preserver?
Disadvantage:
-20 penalty to bluff attempts for somatic concealment, effectively meaning they *can't* do it (they can, but -20 is huge)
-pain penalty to all people nearby, which will usually be his allies
Advantage
-Pain penalty to enemies iif they are nearby, however that scenario is far less likely, especially for players
-damange to plant creatures, very uncommon benefit as you will not meet them very often
Currently, the disadvantages outweight the advantages, which is why Jon started this thread. So we discuss what else goes under the advantage category. An inherent bonus associated with the act of defiling. If we go with the +1 caster level for example (it's a simple example, leaving aside the argument of whether it's a balanced idea), then we add a bonus to defiling. Defilers get this bonus at all times, though they still get the disadvantages above. Preservers do not get it, but also don't get the disadvantages. Preservers can choose to adopt this boost if they feel they need the extra push, they need a bit more damage on their fireball, or an extra magic missle, or a longer duration buff. They must take the disadvantage at the same time, plus the taint mechanic that may slide them to the defiler side. It's a temptation. Some won't ever do it, never for any reason. Possibly due to role play reasons, they just feel it is wrong, or from fear of the corruption it can bring, put the carrot is always there. It's always a dilemma in their life.
I think I have a plan to adapt my mechnanic. It is a corruption mechanic but it is also deterministic - so doesn't involve randomising the corruption.
It is also unbalancing - it makes the basic preserver slightly better. On the other hand, I think the advantage is potentially only slight. So here goes...
A preserver, even without the Amphisbaena feat can still get a +2 Int bonus to determine max spell level but he must defile. Once he uses this bonus, he can only cast spells of that level or higher by defiling. If he uses it again then he loses the ability to cast another level of spells as a preserver.
Once he takes the Amphisbaena feat this penalty goes away. The Amphisbaena feat allows you to defile without losing spell levels to defiling.
What do you think?
Okay, well first off, I want to apologise for having been a little on the aggressive side here. I don't think it's helpful so I'm sorry. I've just worked very hard on the system that I'm plugging here
Its all good Afghan. We weren't going to lynch you, honest *calls off the posse'*. We all get a little stressed sometimes about things that we put are hard work and energy into. Its entirely understandable ;)
I must confess that I did not place an Defiler against my group yet, but they have heard so much from rumors about these types of spellcasters that they are all afraid of meeting one! That fact alone makes the Defiler the most respectfull villian on Athas!
A Defiler automatically Razes (via the appropriate spell from DS3e) while spellcasting. So he automatically defiles, deals subdual damage to people and also causes an Initiative-penalty on creatures within the defiling area. (I modified the Raze-spells a bit, sorry for that...)
A Preserver instead can opt to Raze, so its on his own will to do it or not.
However, I am still not satisfied with the fact that defiling is actually a temptation to an arcane spellcaster. From several novels we ve learned, that defiling brings the feeling of power to the spellcaster and so he/she is actually tempted to defile even if he wants to preserve. A Preserver therefore must willingly avoid defiling. To reflect this in game terms, I am still searching for the perfect rule. From an other game system, there is the idea of a spellcraft check against a "defiling DC" for the Preserver to learn if he is able to resist the temptation.
In the "Defilers and Preservers" accessory it is mentioned that the Veilled Alliance will possibly test spellcasters wheater they defile or not. The question is, how can we handle this in game terms? Just noting that somebody does not defile because he IS a Preserver seems not to be a good way to play this situation. I need to let Tyr´s VA test one of my players and I am really in trouble to find a way to play that away that makes his hands wet...
Originally posted by bromleylaerchenheim
In the "Defilers and Preservers" accessory it is mentioned that the Veilled Alliance will possibly test spellcasters wheater they defile or not. The question is, how can we handle this in game terms? Just noting that somebody does not defile because he IS a Preserver seems not to be a good way to play this situation. I need to let Tyr´s VA test one of my players and I am really in trouble to find a way to play that away that makes his hands wet...
The Green Test in itself is not enough IMHO, but I have a comment to this in this thread on the 2nd page, when I suggested to throw a would-be VA member into a tembo pit instead of simply ask her to cast a spell in the bushes... Check it out!
-all wizards are able to preserve and defile
-terrain level modifiers apply to both preserving & defiling
-if a wizard preserves=>PHB wizard (there are no sorcerers)
-defiling means the following modifers: ash circle (-1 modifier to rolls), -20 to Bluff rolls to hide spellcasting, +1 spellcasting level (see later why this). This plus spellcasting level stacks with the bonus coming from the 'Path Sinister' feat.
-Corruption: if a wizards defiles too much she will loose good alignment (if she has it at all), and considered a defiler from that point. Taking a defiler feat is also an indication for that. Handling this should be a role-playing thing, altough the currently presented role mechanic can help in that. Wizards don't loose the ability to preserve even if they are becoming corrupted and becoming defilers.
-Defiler feats: Every time the character takes a defiler feat (currently: Agonizing Radius, Destructive Raze, Efficient Raze, Exterminating Raze, Path Sinister) she gets -1 penalty to all CHA based social rolls. This is the taint which comes with delving deep in the defiling arts.
-The Efficient Raze feat can be taken more than once, it's effect stacks (that's why I go with the '+1 caster level for defiling' option). By the way I think allowing all defiler feats to be taken more is OK.
Further points:
-the defiling feats should be put in a separate feat group to maintain continuity with further publications.
-defiler feats may be taken as bonus feats for the wizard
-the CHA roll penalty for taking the defiling feats may seem a bit harsh, but IMHO it fits well into the 'dark side lures you, but then takes its toll on you' feeling. The wizard can defile, gaining boost. And then, hey wizard, you can get more boost if you take the feats -and here comes the toll in the form of penalty.
-please consider also putting Sculpt Defiling and Focused Defiling feats into the defiler feats (I posted them on this thread earlier). This can be a chance for a higher level defiler to remain hidden.
-optionally there is a possibility to build in an addiction thing for wizards who become defilers: every time a defiler tries to preserve she should roll an extra concentration check or loose the spell. The negative modifiers to CHA rolls based on taking defiling feats apply on this roll as well.
What do you think, Jon? Or anybody else? I made this summary to get the relevant points together so all can see what we talking about.
EDIT: *Returns to the Blue Shrine*
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Sorry, is it mean that I can find shops in Urik where I can buy some scrolls for coin? Beacause that's the case in other worlds. If you remove that from Athas it becomes a normal world, instead of the low-magic world. Wizards are at wrong end of things on Athas. Of course the wizards receive their normal 2 spell when they level up. Of course they can do magical research, albeit the efforts needed to this are greater (e.g. watching constantly for templars, lynch mobs, etc. In FR that's not an issue.). What I mean that spells come harder is that the external sources are more limited. No shops to buy scrolls or spellbooks. Less amount of other wizards who can be beaten and their spellbook taken. Etc. I took this a bit literally in my campaign. I simply rolled what spells are on a found scroll or spellbook, and not using th eusual things. For example: Magic Missile is a no-brainer in FR or GH, every wizard have it. If you beat a wizard you can be 99% sure that MM is in the spellbook. Not on DS. They can have it, but it is not automatic.
And this is not a role mechanic disadvantage, which has anything to do with CR. It is a setting disadvantage. And as that, it can't be balanced, see the very famous quote: "game mechanic benefits can't be balanced with role-playing/setting disadvantage". It works vica versa, too, doesn't it?
No prob to be harsh, meet me before the building in 5 minutes, we will settle this in no time... ;)
No, you don't need magic shops, but I don't think we're exactly arguing about the same thing... Game balance works just fine if you eliminate 'shops'... but think about random treasure rolls...
Athas is no more low 'magic' than any other standard world. It's just has nastier means of 'aquisiton'.
Wizards are already going to be 'penalised' when it comes to finding magic scrolls: How many wizards are the PCs going to encounter to defeat? Not many on Athas, there just arent that many of them... there are no 'shops', and casting spells in cities gets you killed, at best. If you try to enforce 'low magic' on wizards in Athas, you wreck game balance.
Oh, and I looked for you outside my house... but you weren't there, coward.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Bard = totally rewritten class without spells (as per DS2 bard).
Wizard = totally re-written class (as per DS2 Wizard).
Thanks for the point. :P
Argue the semantics all you want, but if it can be done once, it can be done again.
*gazes*
*gazes*
*lightning bolts Star Gazer in the face* :D
Originally posted by Nagypapi
The Green Test in itself is not enough IMHO, but I have a comment to this in this thread on the 2nd page, when I suggested to throw a would-be VA member into a tembo pit instead of simply ask her to cast a spell in the bushes... Check it out!
Can not find it
*lightning bolts Star Gazer in the face*
Suggestion for Future Posters, Part 1: Equipment
Armor of Lightning Resistance (to avoid Jon's Lightning Bolts of Doom, Death, and Dismay)
Argue the semantics all you want, but if it can be done once, it can be done again.
The question is not whether 'it can be done or not' but 'why it should be done.'
I've thinked much about it, but in the end i've appreciated the simplicity and the effectiveness of this solution.
Originally, defiling was the dark side, equally potent, but easier - faster - than preserving.
In 3e, there's no possibility for a faster or simpler character or magic advancement (exhume the Sorcerer idea for defiling is to differentiate in excessive manner defilers from preservers; the difference is not in the wizard type, but in the different approach to the same type of magic), then the difference between the two types of wizard must be related to another factor: more spell power, faster casting time, or something like this.
The solution of DS3 is appropriate: defilers are like preservers, but have the option of acquiring powerful feats, barren to preservers. In exchange they accept the consequences (positive or not) of the act of defiling.
Pro
Defilers follow the easier way, then have more options, all equally advantageous. (not unbalancing)
Benefits of defiling -defiling radius, ecc.- (unbalancing)
Con
Drawbacks of defiling -defling radius, malus to disguis magic- (unbalancing)
Then, the only differences are the extra feats for Defilers, AND the different approach to magic.
The first is not unbalancing (extra feats are not free), then the only point is to balance defiling and preserving.
Agonizing radius is self-balanced, one more point to balance the -20 to Bluff, et voila', defiling is balanced compared to preserving.
+1 to caster level for full round casting is like to say that defiling is like preserving, more potent only if slower (maybe a non-sense).
+1 to caster level at all times is unbalancing, i guess.
A little initiative bonus (defiling is faster than preserving) or Effective Raze (defiling gathers more energy in the same time) as a Defiler class feature are more appropriate.
Furthemore, basic Agonizing Radius and basic Exterminating Raze can be removed from defiling and changed into feats (selectable more times).
Preserver: as PHB Wizard
Defiler: as PHB Wizard with expanded feat selection (if this added versatility is unbalancing, maybe the extra feats must contain a balancing factor - e.g. a little cumulative penalty to social skill, as previously suggested)
Preserving: as PHB magic system, with terrain modifiers (self-balanced)
Defiling: as Preserving, but with effective raze bonus and -20 to Bluff checks for disguising spellcasting
However, this magic system is not balanced if imported in other settings (terrain modifiers are more often positive than negative, Bluff penalty is irrelevant).
P.S.
My only regret is the lack of a Preserver feat, very flavorwise but impractical (Preserver OR basic agonizing radius as first level feat, in place of Scribe Scrolls would be nice
)Originally posted by Star Gazer
No, you don't need magic shops, but I don't think we're exactly arguing about the same thing... Game balance works just fine if you eliminate 'shops'... but think about random treasure rolls...
Athas is no more low 'magic' than any other standard world. It's just has nastier means of 'aquisiton'.
Wizards are already going to be 'penalised' when it comes to finding magic scrolls: How many wizards are the PCs going to encounter to defeat? Not many on Athas, there just arent that many of them... there are no 'shops', and casting spells in cities gets you killed, at best. If you try to enforce 'low magic' on wizards in Athas, you wreck game balance.
Oh, and I looked for you outside my house... but you weren't there, coward.
Okay, maybe the 'low magic' expression is not exactly the one to cover Athas, as magic is not weaker here. Maybe 'rare magic' is a better expression. There is no rule restriction on magic, no special rule requirement for a character to be wizard, etc. Nor I don't want to include such things. I just try to play the setting correctly: no magic shops, the spell selection of NPCs a bit more haphazard than on a normal world, etc. But i also think we understand each other.
Oh my dear, I waited before your house sooo long. And I said five minutes. I bet you waited for 6-7 minutes before you dare to peep out so you can say that above... Tricky... :D
Originally posted by bromleylaerchenheim
Can not find it
I copied here the relevant part for you:
------------------------
The Green Test as a solely measure is also an obsolate thing with that. Something more elaborate should be used, like sending the suspect into a tembo cave and see if she defiles. (The tembo can be an illusion of course.) This is more appropriate anyway I think, to test a candidate long before accepting. A bit ridiculos that the VA simply put a flower before the candidate, ask to cast, and if the flower is ok the wizard is a buddy in the next moment... Green Test can be the part of the tests. A small flower can be hidden in the tembo cave before, and if the candidate defiles inside (safely, she thinks, as rock not turning to ash) they just check the flower afterwards. No flower-no cookie...
------------------------
Originally posted by guyser
P.S.
My only regret is the lack of a Preserver feat, very flavorwise but impractical (Preserver OR basic agonizing radius as first level feat, in place of Scribe Scrolls would be nice
If I remember correctly the Preserver feat idea was dropped as the setup was preserver=PHB wizard. But with the preserver feat the situation would have been: preserver=PHB wizard+feat.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
I copied here the relevant part for you:
------------------------
The Green Test as a solely measure is also an obsolate thing with that. Something more elaborate should be used, like sending the suspect into a tembo cave and see if she defiles. (The tembo can be an illusion of course.) This is more appropriate anyway I think, to test a candidate long before accepting. A bit ridiculos that the VA simply put a flower before the candidate, ask to cast, and if the flower is ok the wizard is a buddy in the next moment... Green Test can be the part of the tests. A small flower can be hidden in the tembo cave before, and if the candidate defiles inside (safely, she thinks, as rock not turning to ash) they just check the flower afterwards. No flower-no cookie...
------------------------
Thanks. I follow your idea. On our next session, the VA will test my preserver-friend by arranging for a fight with a tembo in a pit which floor is covered with weeds.
To make things worst for him, an assassin (send by one of my villians from another story) send somebody to the pit as well: an invisible Defiler who will raze so that it will look like, the Preserver is defiling. I´m not sure yet how to mask the Defiler but it will be a lot fun watching his face while burnung grass to ashes just infront of a couple of Preservers with fireballs ready... har har
And of course you don't have to use tembo, zombies and such things can be quite good as well (especially that they doesn't need food and water,so they can wait in the test ground indefinitely). Or So-Ut, or Nightamre Beast, if you are a really cruel DM...
Or an ID Fiend, and see if during the fear effect the applicant starts to defile? Maybe it is worth to consider...So, how do we do this?
According to the books. there is no game functional difference between a preserver and a defiler.
Ok, so far so good... now what? That's our constraint, we have a change to the magic system to deal with, not a change to the classes.
Is there a good reason why defiling can't add +1 to caster level and have some sort of 'addiction' mechanic? The reason why the 'green test' works is that defilers (those addicted to defiling) have to make a Will save to preserve, sometimes they fail that save.
Is this unbalanced? Especially when coupled with the mechanics already in place? No. It isn't. It even has a nice hidden connection between Defilers and Druids: Give Druids a Defiler Atonement spell that erases the addiction. They are the intimate connection with the land, and it should be they that forgive defilers...
According to the books. there is no game functional difference between a preserver and a defiler.
Okay but according to the books there's no 'functional' difference between a fighter and a gladiator. I don't disagree with the sort of system your proposing. It fits Dark Sun probably quite a bit better. But it's tending towards a skill-based system rather than a class-based system. It's not Dungeons & Dragons.
Preservers and defilers are separate concepts in the world of Dark Sun. They need to be distinct in a D&D conversion.
Good thing it was only lightning... having electricity resistance 20 is a nice thing to have around here... now had that been a fireball...ugh!).
Actually, the Oracle's lightning bolts deal sacred damage.
- Oran, the Loremaster
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Actually, the Oracle's lightning bolts deal sacred damage.
- Oran, the Loremaster
Since there are no Gods on Athas, there is no sacred damage. Phew. Note to self: take more levels in Rogue.
Originally posted by Star Gazer
I don't know about you guys, but I'd like to see a magic system where the 'green test' just doens't hold that much weight... think about it, DS3.5 is based on the Prism Pentad, not on the DS2 rules. There must be a 'call' to defile and an 'addiction' to doing so.
The 'call' is the +1 caster level or the better terrain modifier. Instant advantage (not without negative effects). The 'addiction' is the feats. If you already take a feat you will probably use it, won't you? Or else it is a waste. And the using of feats gives further benefits. Ohh, but there is a little problem: you have to defile for that. That is the devilish circle (or more a vortex) that pulls the wizard to defiling.
Is there a good reason why defiling can't add +1 to caster level and have some sort of 'addiction' mechanic? The reason why the 'green test' works is that defilers (those addicted to defiling) have to make a Will save to preserve, sometimes they fail that save.
As I pointed out, the Green Test in itself is not enough to prove that somebody is a preserver. And I think VA anyway puts the candidates under more rigorous testing than one single casting in the presence of a flower. At least they should be. Psionic is readily available, there is 'detect thoughts' spell as well, during the tests the VA can monitor the candidate for signs of weakness and treachery. If I would be a member of highly secretive organisation, not just hunted by the authorities (templars) but hated by the general populace as well, well, I would make _bloody_ sure that the newbie is not meaning any harm to me and the organisation. Not to mention the long-term effects. If VA trains a newling wizard, but later the wizard turns to defiling than the VA has a big issue at hand as they actually helped to create something they hate at most! So tests about the personality of the newbie is as important as the tests for defiling. IMHO it is a very similar situation to Jedi testing before training in Star Wars. They not only try to make sure that the candidate can learn the use of Force, but more importantly they test that the candidate can resist the dark side or not. Same with the VA.
Originally posted by Afghan
Preservers and defilers are separate concepts in the world of Dark Sun. They need to be distinct in a D&D conversion.
But not by class as we move with the 'one wizard class' setup. Star Gazer has right that the magic system has to mean the difference.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
But not by class as we move with the 'one wizard class' setup. Star Gazer has right that the magic system has to mean the difference.
No I agree. Preservers and defilers aren't quite distinct enough to warrant separate classes as they did in 2ed. On the other hand, I don't see how Dungeons & Dragons mechanics can avoid reflecting the fact that an Athasian wizard is either a preserver or a defiler.
My problem with a lot of the systems that go around is that nobody has any reason to be a defiler. Defilers are basically preservers who succumbed to temptation. All defilers.
That's not to say there shouldn't be preservers who become defilers but they shouldn't be in the majority. That really isn't faithful to the setting.
Originally posted by Afghan
No I agree. Preservers and defilers aren't quite distinct enough to warrant separate classes as they did in 2ed. On the other hand, I don't see how Dungeons & Dragons mechanics can avoid reflecting the fact that an Athasian wizard is either a preserver or a defiler.
My problem with a lot of the systems that go around is that nobody has any reason to be a defiler. Defilers are basically preservers who succumbed to temptation. All defilers.
That's not to say there shouldn't be preservers who become defilers but they shouldn't be in the majority. That really isn't faithful to the setting.
The reason for this is the 'preserver=PHB wizard' setup. That is the reason that every wizard is a preserver at start and can go to the defiling arts, instead of every wizard is a defiler and can learn the preserving arts by feat or skill or whatever. I agree that it is the exact opposite of the setting. But I'm also sure that athas.org team would have been found the solution to that if there had been any.
Originally posted by Afghan
No I agree. Preservers and defilers aren't quite distinct enough to warrant separate classes as they did in 2ed. On the other hand, I don't see how Dungeons & Dragons mechanics can avoid reflecting the fact that an Athasian wizard is either a preserver or a defiler.
My problem with a lot of the systems that go around is that nobody has any reason to be a defiler. Defilers are basically preservers who succumbed to temptation. All defilers.
That's not to say there shouldn't be preservers who become defilers but they shouldn't be in the majority. That really isn't faithful to the setting.
Not so... There are many wizards on athas who have done nothing but defile for their entire lives, either because that was what they were taught or because they can't resist the call or because they just don't care about the damage they do.
I want to make a proposal. It's a very simple one and one that's likely to avoid confusion about the definitions of Preserver and Defiler.
We need to move away from having class names for Preservers and Defilers. The difference is in the magic system, there is, and I cannot stress this enough: absolutely no need to have a 'Preserver' class name and a 'Defiler' class name. In fact, it is detrimental.
A write-up for a particular wizard, be he perserver or defiler should be as a Wiz10 or Wiz13, not Pre10 or Def13 or whatever with a note in the text to describe his inclinations between preserving and defiling.
Why should we do this (and I realize that some already do, but the point is to formalize it)? Because of the limitations of DS2 mechanics, preservers and defilers were separate classes, and that leads to questions and objections like Afgan's above (I'm not picking on you buddy, just using you as the most convienent example). They are not separate classes, and once the magic system is seen in this framework, discussion about the two attitudes towards magic become easier.
Here's a metaphor: Defilers are 'Big Business', assumed to be in control of much of the world, and Preservers are 'Mom 'n' Pop Stores'. They are both businesses, but the differences are huge in their application to the business model.
Let's dicuss the business model (the magic system) and not the businesses themselves.
Simple. I don't remember seeing any wizard with a familiar in DS, so instead of getting one, you choose between one of two feats at 1st level. Either Defiler or Preserver.
From that you get a set of advantages and disadvantages, just like domains for clerics.
Edo. (Who beleives that the current defiler sucks. It actually seems that THEY are the ones tempted to preserve, instead of the other way around).
1) Why do most wizards defile? It can't be as simple as "a little more power", because it just doesn't make sense to me why most wizards would defile when there is an easy alternative. Sure, there would be a few bad apples who just don't care but I don't see the majority of spellcasters falling in that group.
2) Why don't "defilers" (for lack of a better term
) preserve when it's convenient? The taint mechanism in the current system works well for this. Sure, it isn't strictly supported by any fiction but under the one class system you need something.3) What would tempt a preserver to defile? To me, there has to be a reason, and it has to be tempting enough to make some preservers take the bait. This moral dilemma for preservers is central to the flavor of Athas.
Just some Monday morning thoughts.
Originally posted by Gralhruk
From a plausibility standpoint, the magic system needs to answer a few questions (for me, at least):
1) Why do most wizards defile? It can't be as simple as "a little more power", because it just doesn't make sense to me why most wizards would defile when there is an easy alternative. Sure, there would be a few bad apples who just don't care but I don't see the majority of spellcasters falling in that group.
2) Why don't "defilers" (for lack of a better term
3) What would tempt a preserver to defile? To me, there has to be a reason, and it has to be tempting enough to make some preservers take the bait. This moral dilemma for preservers is central to the flavor of Athas.
Just some Monday morning thoughts.
I'd suggest that (1) and (3) are aspects of the same problem. What makes anyone defile? And, I agree, defiling can't depend on just giving a slight edge. That really isn't tempting enough - not in a d20 System which is just a little too random for such a slim advantage to be worthwhile on one occasion. On the other hand, if you get that same advantage all the time then it becomes unbalancing. Even if you have some sort of disadvantage to defiling as well, the option to chop and change is just as unbalancing.
Defiling, in order to make sense in the setting, has to give a substantial advantage. That, in turn, requires a substantial downside to defiling for balance. In turn that precludes 'chopping and changing' which would also give wizards too much power. So there does need to be some sort of separation of preservers and defilers - which is a distinction that exists in the minds of Athasians anyway.
It is disingenuous to suggest that the Taint system (or any Taint system) is a 'one wizard' system. You cannot preserve and defile. You have to choose one or the other.
Anyway, I agree that defiling should offer a substantial bonus along with a substantial penalty. The trick is to make the penalty something that PCs have a real problem with but NPCs don't care so much about.
All of the following are class features of the Athasian Wizard.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Athasian Wizard is proficient in all simple weapons. Athas is a harsh world, and even wizards are forced to learn how to defend themselves with weapons if need be. Casting a spell can often get a wizard in much more trouble than a well placed shot from a cross bow.
Spells per Day: Athasian Wizards gains new spells per day as per the standard wizard class. They do not, however, automatically learn new spells as they progress in levels. Magic on Athas is a rare commodity, and learning it’s arcane secrets is a much more difficult task than on softer worlds.
Energy Gathering (Ex): Due to the lack of any gods of magic or preexistent magical infrastructure (some times called a “weave” on other planes) through which to focus their energies, Athasian Wizard have been forced to develop alternate methods of gathering and manipulating arcane energies. The primary source of this energy comes from the life force inherent in all beings. Whenever a wizard casts a spell he must draw upon the life energy of nearby plant life. This act of drawing out a plant’s energy destroys it and leaves behind nothing but barren and infertile ash, so devoid of life that nothing will grow in the surrounding soil for a full year. More powerful castings, of course, require more energy and thus leave larger tracts of defiled land. Fortunately, with patience, wizards can learn to draw the life force from plants more slowly, preserving some of the precious life energy so as not to kill the plants in the process of casting his spells. Those with the restraint to gather energy without destroying the plant life are known as preservers, while those who regularly drain the environment are known as Defilers. Regardless of what method is used, the energy gathering process is visible by anyone who witnesses the casting, as thin tendrils of arcane energy flowing into the caster from the local plant life when preserving, to a flowing torrent of life energy when defiling. The area drawn upon by any given spell casting can be determined by the table X-X below.
Aura of Corruption (Su): Constantly destroying ones environment has a detrimental effect on one’s psyche. Every time an Athasian Wizard defiles the land he takes one temporary point of charisma damage. This damage heals at a rate of 1 point per 8 hours of rest (as required to memorize spells). If the wizard manages to sustain 5 points of charisma damage from defiling at one time they are immediately traded in for one point of permanent charisma damage. This damage may only restored through the casting of the druid spell conversion although it may be raised normally.
Somatic Concealment (Ex): Due to the highly visible nature of their castings Athasian wizards have learned to distract onlookers, or otherwise conceal their activities when casting spells. When casting a spell, a Wizard can, as a free action, use the Bluff skill, opposed by witness’ Sense Motive or Spot (whichever is better) to distract witnesses so that they fail to notice the wizard gathering energy for his spell. The following modifiers, as well as any skill check penalties that would apply to concentration checks also apply to this roll
Bluff Check DC penalties:
Wizard is defiling +20
Per level of the spell +1
Gathering in Desolate terrain Impossible
Gathering in Barren terrain +2
Gathering in Infertile terrain +0
Gathering in Fertile terrain -1
Gathering in Abundant terrain -2
Spot/Sense Motive DC modifiers:
Target is actively observing the wizard -5
Target knows the character is a wizard -5
If the wizard does not conceal his energy gathering, then anyone witness to the energy gathering process or is within the radius as shown on table X-X is automatically considered alert and may not be surprised.
Bonus Feat: Athasian Wizards do not automatically start out with the Summon Familiar or Scribe Scroll feats. Instead they may select a bonus feat from the expanded Athasian Wizard Bonus Feats list bellow. And they get the Scribe Mneumonic Spell (functions like scribe scroll but allows for the creation of scolls in other mediums, much like spell books)
Dependant Magic (Ex): Due to their reliance on plant life to power their spells all Athasian Wizards receive a modifier to their effective caster level when casting spells based on the terrain in which they gather the needed energy as shown below on table X-X.
[/b]Table X-X: Energy Gathering[/b]
Lifeless
Desolate
Baren
Infertile
Feats
Path Concordant
Despite your past as a defiler you have seen the error of your ways and have managed to atone for your past sins while still learning from your experiences. Preserver and Defiler and managed to learn from your experiences.
Prerequisites: Cha 15+, Wis 13+, Path Dexter, Path Sinister.
Benefit: You may apply the effects of both Path Dexter and Path Sinister to a single spell casting. This only applies the increased casting time once.
Special: If your temporary or permanent charisma ever drop below 15 due to defiling you loose this feat and Path Dexter and may never repurchase them.
Path Dexter
You have the self-control to avoid causing harm to local plant life when casting arcane spells.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 0 level Arcane spells. Cha 13+.
Benefit: When casting an arcane spell you may increase the casting time of the spell by one category (as per applying metamagic to sorcerer spells PHB pg. XX) to preserve the surrounding plant life. Unfortunately you must also treat the surrounding terrain as if it were one type closer to lifeless (-1 effective caster level at Barren, +1 at Abundant etc.). Applying this metamagic feat negates the –20 bluff check penalty and prevents the sterilization of surrounding terrain as well as the associated charisma loss.
Special: As per standard feat rules if you fail to meet the prerequisites of the feat after you have learned it you may not use it until you once again meet the requirements.
Path Sinister
You are skilled at drawing in more energy than is necessary to power your spells.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 0 level Arcane spells.
Benefit: When casting an arcane spell memorized with a metamagic feat other than Quicken Spell you may increase the casting time of the spell by one category (as per applying metamagic to sorcerer spells PHB pg. XX) to exchange the metamagic feat for any other combination of metamagical feats whose total effective memorization level increase is equal to that of the original metamagic feat.
Special: When you purchase this feat if you also have Path Dexter you must trade it in for another metamagic feat.
Quicken Spell
Benefit: Quicken Spell functions exactly as in the players handbook except that when all energy gathering and all associated side effects occur at the time of memorization. Defilers often use this technique to pass the notorious “Green Test” given by the Veiled Alliance, and all wizards must use quickening to cast in lifeless terrain.
This gives us a functional difference for defiling and a mechanism for addiction. If a defiler defiles to the point where thier charisma drops below 13 then they are addicted. The benifit for defiling is that the terain mods are one step better than if you preserve, wich most times will equal out to +1 caster level
And big thanks to Halabis once more, as I realised a thing I failed to notice earlier: in the current official version (3e) the preserver is not equal to PHB wizard due to the terrain modifiers. This is a serious point to re-think game balance wise... I don't say it should be changed, I would more say that it makes further modifications possible for a brand new, flavourwise better, but balanced wizard and magic system. Now I'm very curious about the final official version of the magic system.
By Grakhruk:
From a plausibility standpoint, the magic system needs to answer a few questions (for me, at least):
1) Why do most wizards defile? It can't be as simple as "a little more power", because it just doesn't make sense to me why most wizards would defile when there is an easy alternative. Sure, there would be a few bad apples who just don't care but I don't see the majority of spellcasters falling in that group.
2) Why don't "defilers" (for lack of a better term ) preserve when it's convenient? The taint mechanism in the current system works well for this. Sure, it isn't strictly supported by any fiction but under the one class system you need something.
3) What would tempt a preserver to defile? To me, there has to be a reason, and it has to be tempting enough to make some preservers take the bait. This moral dilemma for preservers is central to the flavor of Athas.
Actually, the answers to your questions are right there in the rules:
1) Most wizards defile because it's addictive.
2) They try to. Some fail their will saves, some don't. Regardless, a wizard who is addicted to magic has to make a will save every time they try and preserve.
3) Hmmm... +1 caster level sounds good... :D turns a 5d6 Fireball into a 6d6 Fireball or an extra 10 minutes on an invisiblility spell, or a longer lasting Summon Spell, besides, you won't be immediately addicted...
And big thanks to Halabis once more, as I realised a thing I failed to notice earlier: in the current official version (3e) the preserver is not equal to PHB wizard due to the terrain modifiers. This is a serious point to re-think game balance wise...
The terrain modifiers are situational modifiers that apply to both defilers and preservers. Balance wise, they are a small thorn in my eye, since they make athasian wizards more/less powerful than PHB wizards in certain terrains. However, there are situations where rogues can flank targets easier (5 ft' broad corridor) and other situations where they can't flank at all (corners), so these differences are neglible. In vast parts of the cities and the terrains that make up the majority of the Tablelands (i.e. no terrain modifer), athasian preservers are equal to PHB counterparts. It's acceptable.
Actually, the answers to your questions are right there in the rules:
1) Most wizards defile because it's addictive.
True, but the current system assumes that every wizard starts out with the ability to preserve. To me, that is contrary to the implication of the source material. That is, defiling is the default method of spellcasting - the impression I've always gotten is that preservers are a select few who have learned a better way.
2) They try to. Some fail their will saves, some don't. Regardless, a wizard who is addicted to magic has to make a will save every time they try and preserve.
Right. I was actually agreeing that the official method works in this respect, and that any future version should take this problem into account as well.
3) Hmmm... +1 caster level sounds good... turns a 5d6 Fireball into a 6d6 Fireball or an extra 10 minutes on an invisiblility spell, or a longer lasting Summon Spell, besides, you won't be immediately addicted...
It might work; I'm certainly no balance expert. I just wanted to make the point that a minor advantage isn't going to push the majority of spellcasters to defile. Athas is dying as a direct result of magic use. Everybody knows this, and the extreme environment is a constant reminder of what happens when you defile. Not only that, but that big circle of ash is going to make an immediate statement and I'd say it would cause all but the most callous to rethink their reasons for not preserving.
As I said in a previous post, I think that the benefit needs to be such that it really comes into play in situations that are likely life or death for a PC. So, yeah, +1 caster level is nice but I'd rather see something like allowing extra spells if the wizard has cast his allotment for the day but only if he defiles or something like that.
2) They try to. Some fail their will saves, some don't. Regardless, a wizard who is addicted to magic has to make a will save every time they try and preserve.
A defiler *cannot* preserve.
True, but the current system assumes that every wizard starts out with the ability to preserve. To me, that is contrary to the implication of the source material. That is, defiling is the default method of spellcasting - the impression I've always gotten is that preservers are a select few who have learned a better way.
Mechanically, all wizards can defile and preserve at 1st level. But there is nothing wrong in restricting a character to start as a defiler if you want to, and your reasons can be many. For example, you don't know any other way of gathering energy than defiling, or you were impatient or inable to learn how to preserve; you like the rush of energy defiling brings and you're addicted to it; you had traumatic experiences with cacti when you were a child and want vengeance on the plants of the world; etc.
Originally posted by Halabis
With the system I listed if your perminant charisma drops below 13 you are considered "addicted", additionaly, instead of taking away the feats and switching them out, If you want wizards to all be able to defile you could just make the Path Dexter a class feature of the wizard, and come up with a new feat to fit the Path Dexter name. =)
What happens w/ a wizard that starts w/ a charisma of under 13? That needs to be dealt with. I'm not a big fan of this idea, but you need to address this issue, because not all preservers are charismatic. Essentially, your major issue is that you're making CHA a secondary characteristic of the wizard: Ick.
My 0.2cp.
Roger
Originally posted by Halabis
Well, 13 was just the number I picked. In the campaignes I play our character tend to have a stat set that looks something like 18, 17, 16, 18, 15, 14. Yeah, a bit high. You can always lower the charisma requirement to whatever is considered balanced. =)
It's the mechanic that's the problem... not the value of the stat. A stadard array is this:
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Where is it 'balanced'? When your PC puts the 15 in Cha? How about the 10? Or maybe the 8? You see the problem? It's with setting the limit at a particular value at all...
The whole point of balance is that you free the DM from having to do anything but write a good story.
Speaking of balance. this is just flat out broken:
Path Dexter
You have the self-control to avoid causing harm to local plant life when casting arcane spells.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 0 level Arcane spells. Cha 13+.
Benefit: When casting an arcane spell you may increase the casting time of the spell by one category (as per applying metamagic to sorcerer spells PHB pg. XX) to preserve the surrounding plant life. Unfortunately you must also treat the surrounding terrain as if it were one type closer to lifeless (-1 effective caster level at Barren, +1 at Abundant etc.). Applying this metamagic feat negates the –20 bluff check penalty and prevents the sterilization of surrounding terrain as well as the associated charisma loss.
Special: As per standard feat rules if you fail to meet the prerequisites of the feat after you have learned it you may not use it until you once again meet the requirements.
Just how do you propose the veiled alliance is to have survived? If a preserver isn't both the 'standard' and equal to a PHB wizard, you've just trashed game balance. If you take the bolded stuff out, then you have accomplished in a slightly different way what the DS3 document already does. Why does the preserver have to be the standard? Because DnD is a heroic game and most players will play preservers, not defilers; you have to cater to them.
Am I making any sense at all? It's not a bad system, but I don't see how it accomplishes anything that isn't already implemented... You have to do several things w/ a magic system for Athas:
1) Make the 'power' of defiling available to both preservers and defilers.
2) Keep the preserver as a standard PHB wizard.
3) Make it 'easier' to keep defiling once you've done it once.
That's really all there is to it. It doesn't really matter just HOW much power you give to wizards who choose to defile (yes, there are limits) but you cannot penalize wizards for not defiling. As it stands, defiling = caster level +1 is good, so would be a near functional equivalent of allowing a free level of metamagic, so would allowing reduced casting times to full round and multi round spells. For that matter, defiling = caster level +2 would be balanced, as long as preservers have instant access to it as well.
You can have defiling enhancing feats, that's fine, but they should be generally available to all wizards.
I would re-evaluate your system in light of the three principles... you'd be surprised at what you'll find.
Oh, one more note: I wouldn't mess w/ the spells that wizards get per level, that's a fuction of increased understanding w/ magic and what the wizard does in 'down time'. It's an artifact of the level system that DnD uses. It's also important that the PC get to choose at least some of his spells, otherwise you run into accusations of 'fixing' the spell list w/o his knowledge. If you like, change it to 1 new spell every 1/2 level... that gives a better indication of what's really going on w/ learning spells.
For that matter, defiling = caster level +2 would be balanced, as long as preservers have instant access to it as well.
By that logic would caster level +20 be balanced, as long as preservers have instant access to it as well? ;)
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
The terrain modifiers are situational modifiers that apply to both defilers and preservers. Balance wise, they are a small thorn in my eye, since they make athasian wizards more/less powerful than PHB wizards in certain terrains. However, there are situations where rogues can flank targets easier (5 ft' broad corridor) and other situations where they can't flank at all (corners), so these differences are neglible. In vast parts of the cities and the terrains that make up the majority of the Tablelands (i.e. no terrain modifer), athasian preservers are equal to PHB counterparts. It's acceptable.
You are right, it's situational, it can be both positive and negative. (And if you remember, it was I who suggested that Stony Barrens should have zero modifier as the most frequent terrain type...)
But the main point is that if you include even a situational and balanced thing than it is already not equal to PHB wizard.Of course it doesn't warrant unbalanced rules, but already frees the hand to interpret things a bit more lightly.
By the way when can the hungry masses except a final 3.5 DS wizard and magic system? I would looooove to take it apart, chew and spit out... :D
Defiling giving an equivalent of +1 meta-magic is phenomenally broken. It is the equivalent of bumping up every spell slot by a level.
I really don't see how you can extend the benefits of defiling to preservers for free without making either preservers or defilers more powerful. Either the defiler is balanced and the preserver has to refrain from working at full potential or the preserver gains benefits that the defiler doesn't. Nobody has quite explained how to get around the balance issues here, even in theory.
By the by, Jon, have you had any more thoughts on the matter. Before everyone gets too carried away, what's the official line at the moment?
Originally posted by Gralhruk
True, but the current system assumes that every wizard starts out with the ability to preserve. To me, that is contrary to the implication of the source material. That is, defiling is the default method of spellcasting - the impression I've always gotten is that preservers are a select few who have learned a better way.
According to Athasian history Rajaat started to teach preserver magic to his followers, and only later started to teach defiler magic to his chosen followers, the champions, to give them extra power over the others -who were mostly preservers. So altough it seems strange, the current system is in line with that in the assumption that every wizard can preserve from the start.
It might work; I'm certainly no balance expert. I just wanted to make the point that a minor advantage isn't going to push the majority of spellcasters to defile. Athas is dying as a direct result of magic use. Everybody knows this, and the extreme environment is a constant reminder of what happens when you defile. Not only that, but that big circle of ash is going to make an immediate statement and I'd say it would cause all but the most callous to rethink their reasons for not preserving.
Oh my God, just have a look on the current real life Earth! People kill Earth and the environment for much less benefit than on Athas the defiling gives. For simple money we do that day by day here on this planet now! And who cares about the environment when her life is on the stake? If she has to kill a bunch of plans to make the Fireball stronger and surely kill all the attackers she will do it without hesitation. That is the main difference between preservers and defilers. Defilers don't think for a minute about long-term enviromental effects. The evil ones and exterminators even enjoy it, neutral ones don't give a damn about it. "It's a desert anyway, if a few meter area becomes ash, hey, its not my problem!" (With the same thinking dump companies dangerous waste in the oceans.) Who cares about what will happen in 10 years? Or 20 years? On Athas much people not even live that long. Preservers are the ones who have enough conscience to preserving even in life-and-death situations. And they are the minority.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
A defiler *cannot* preserve.
Which is a big mistake. If the wizard starts with the ability to be able to preserve is it not a break to 3e or 3.5e rules to remove this ability from her? If this can be done than we could take away weapon focus feat from a fighter if she goes multiclass... Nonsense! Even a druid CAN use metal armors, long swords, etc. altough she suffers from neagtive effects afterward. The same way if a wizard turns to be a defiler she should not loose the preserving ability. Build in an addiction system, so she has to roll to preserve instead of defiling. Slow them down if they try to preserve the same way as sorcerers slowing down when they use metamagic feats, or give then any other penalties. But do not remove the preserving ability!!!! It is a huge breach in the system IMHO.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Mechanically, all wizards can defile and preserve at 1st level. But there is nothing wrong in restricting a character to start as a defiler if you want to, and your reasons can be many. For example, you don't know any other way of gathering energy than defiling, or you were impatient or inable to learn how to preserve; you like the rush of energy defiling brings and you're addicted to it; you had traumatic experiences with cacti when you were a child and want vengeance on the plants of the world; etc.
Yeah, that can work. But:
-if there are restricted characters who can only defile or preserve we loose the 'one wizard class' setup.
-having a character restricted from the start is not the same as loosing an already got ability
But the main point is that if you include even a situational and balanced thing than it is already not equal to PHB wizard.
Did I ever disagree? I said it was a small thorn in my eye.
Of course it doesn't warrant unbalanced rules, but already frees the hand to interpret things a bit more lightly.
Consider it a compromise and more of an exception, not the rule.
By the way when can the hungry masses except a final 3.5 DS wizard and magic system? I would looooove to take it apart, chew and spit out...
When DS3.5 is released.
Which is a big mistake. If the wizard starts with the ability to be able to preserve is it not a break to 3e or 3.5e rules to remove this ability from her? If this can be done than we could take away weapon focus feat from a fighter if she goes multiclass... Nonsense!
To quote you: Nonsense. It is in fact the preserver's option to both defile and preserve that breaks balance. Removing that option when the preserver's status changes to defiler corrects this unbalancing element and is in line with DS2.
Even a druid CAN use metal armors, long swords, etc. altough she suffers from neagtive effects afterward. The same way if a wizard turns to be a defiler she should not loose the preserving ability.
Which in turn would make the Green Test obsolete. Furthermore, there is no precedent in DS of long term defilers being able to preserve.
I just wanted to make the point that a minor advantage isn't going to push the majority of spellcasters to defile
All I'm saying is that the advantage needs to be great enough that it is immediately obvious to the spellcaster, something concrete enough to make a caster believe that defiling might save their life.
When DS3.5 is released
*crosses arms over chest and pouts*
If i were designing this system, i would take a carrot as oppossed to stick approach and give every wizard a choice on an action-by-action basis as to whether preserve or defile (both should be balanced against each other) and allow specialization into either as a series of feats (metamagic, etc) that offer a firm, but flavored mechanical benefit. But i suppose that is just too simple for those who have to see every literal aspect past game supplements and novels represented in some arbitrary fashion in this edition.
Keep it simple and balanced should be the motto. Is this game or simulation? I would hope the former, because the latter is probably doomed to failure.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
To quote you: Nonsense. It is in fact the preserver's option to both defile and preserve that breaks balance.
And how would you like to solve this? The logical way would be the 'all wizard can defile, with extra effort they can preserve' setup. The tricky thing to find what is this extra: a feat, a skill, or what else. And as with the terrain modifiers we already violates the 'preserver=PHB wizard' setup.... I'm beating the dead kank here with the 'preserver' feat idea...
Or an other option: make the defiler an NPC class. It is finally playable, if somebody wants it, but not part of the core player document. Then preserver=PHB wizard(+terrain modifiers). Of course it means to loose the 'one wizard class' setup, but if the defilers loosing preserving ability at the end, it is almost the same.
Actually loosing ability is not a problem, see ex-clerics, or ex-paladins, or ex-monks, etc. But there have to be a logical reason for that. Like a deity who doesn't give power any more (in case of ex-clerics and ex-paladins), or the loosing of internal balance (ex-monk). But even ex characters don't loose skills, armor and weapon proficiencies, as these are simple material things. A cleric doesn't forget how to bandage somebody with a heal skill even if she is ex. The preserving magic is similar thing, material, not spiritual. If somebody learnt that, there is no reason to lost it. Of course the character can decide not to use this, or have to overcome addiction or similar thing if she already a hardcore defiler. But to loose it outright... It's like an ex-palaidn loosing BAB or armor prof.
Removing that option when the preserver's status changes to defiler corrects this unbalancing element and is in line with DS2.
My internal alarm system went off here...
In line with DS2? Aren't you building DS 3.5? 2e can only make suggestions to this project, maximum! The rule changes from 2e to 3e were too intense IMHO for setting anything in line with 2e.Which in turn would make the Green Test obsolete. Furthermore, there is no precedent in DS of long term defilers being able to preserve.
I already wrote my opinion about the Green Test, I think it is simply not enough as a proof. Regarding the precedent: of course there is no precedent, as all precedent could come only from 2e, where defilers and preservers were distinct classes, and defilers were not able to preserve. But it is 3e/3.5e now!
Originally posted by Gralhruk
Nagypapi, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't mean to imply that nobody would defile because it hurt the environment. What I said was (bold added):
All I'm saying is that the advantage needs to be great enough that it is immediately obvious to the spellcaster, something concrete enough to make a caster believe that defiling might save their life.
I understand, and sorry if my voice was a bit harsh. No offense intended. I just see too much from this stuff (defiler mentality in real life).
Regarding the advantage: the problem is two-fold. If you give too little advantage, you are right, nobody will use it. You give too much you broke game balance. The current advantage is +1 caster level or +1 to spell DC and SR (still not decided which one) as an instant advantage, and defiler feats with further advantage. I think it is an acceptable compromise between flavour and balance.
By extending the casting time of your spells when defiling to 1 round, you gain a +1 bonus to caster level and your defiling radius increases by 5 ft. Spells with a normal casting time of 1 round or longer require an extra round to be cast in this manner.
There will also be a raze feat that reduces the increased casting time.
EDIT: You'll recognize this as a rewrite of Player 1's suggestion.
Actually loosing ability is not a problem, see ex-clerics, or ex-paladins, or ex-monks, etc. But there have to be a logical reason for that. Like a deity who doesn't give power any more (in case of ex-clerics and ex-paladins), or the loosing of internal balance (ex-monk).
Why is it that a DS2 defiler could not preserve? It was never answered in the original setting. By the current rule set that answer would be addiction. Even if the defiler wants to preserve (it's very practical at times), she can't get herself to do it.
But even ex characters don't loose skills, armor and weapon proficiencies, as these are simple material things. A cleric doesn't forget how to bandage somebody with a heal skill even if she is ex.
Newsflash: Magic is not a skill or weapon/armor proficiency.
My internal alarm system went off here... In line with DS2? Aren't you building DS 3.5? 2e can only make suggestions to this project, maximum! The rule changes from 2e to 3e were too intense IMHO for setting anything in line with 2e.
Read the FAQ...
This is exactly why we need to start calling arcane spellcasters on Athas Wizards and not 'preservers' or 'defilers'. We are changing the way the Class (Wizard) interacts with its surroundings (the magic system). Does that make more sense? We've given all wizards the option of casting magic in a way that is slightly different from the way presented in the PHB. You get extra power for this, but suffer some penalties too: You're instantly a target, you can hurt your companions, people hate you vehemently and eventually, you can't stop. It's not fun being a target when there's a nice, juicy .5giant right there who could much more easily withstand the abuse...
All of these rules, IMO should be (and they are, somebody correct me if I'm wrong), placed in the Magic section of the DS3.5 docs, not in the class writeup because they have nothing whatsoever to do with the wizard's ability to cast spells, just with what manner the wizard chooses to cast them in.
It seems that everyone is trying to create a defiling mechanic that works the same for preservers and defilers, which then seems to lead to balance problems because preservers can defile and gain the benefits of doing so, but defilers can't preserve to gain those benefits.
My suggestion would be to add on an additional penalty for preservers (though I'm not sure what exactly). The idea being that while preservers can defile, they suffer some kind of extra hindrance, which plain old defilers don't. For example:
1. They're not used to handling so much extra life energy so they suffer 1d6 points of subdual damage (or perhaps 1d6/spell level or something).
OR
2. As above but instead of damage they become fatigued, which ups to exhausted if they defile again, etc.
OR
3. Their extreme reluctance to defile sets up a kind of mental block that they have to overcome causing 1 or more points of temporary Int/Wis/Cha damage each time they defile.
True this doesn't do wonders for the "one class" setup as it introduces more differences, but I think it could help balance-wise. This also works with the corruption/addiction idea: if the wizard keeps up with his defiling, he eventually overcome his mental block, or becomes used to the excessive energy.
Originally posted by CSK
My suggestion would be to add on an additional penalty for preservers (though I'm not sure what exactly). The idea being that while preservers can defile, they suffer some kind of extra hindrance, which plain old defilers don't.
Well actually there already is.
Preserver doesn't have access to defiling feats, so his defiling attemepts would be much weaker.
While pereserver would only gain +1CL (with increased casting time), defiler with some feats could gain +1 damage per die (Destructive Raze), +1 to DC (Efficient Raze), +1CL with casting time lower then preservers (that new Raze feat which Jon talked about), etc...
If been thinking about this:
Ability usable by all (Athasian) arcane spellcasters.
Characters never start as defiler, they can however chose to become a defiler at any time. [edit: at the cost shown below]
Every arcane spell caster has the ability to defile and make his spell more powerfull.
When defiling, the spell is empowered without making it a higher level spell (add X% to all numerical effects of spells).
This bonus depends on the terrain:
+0% Desolate & Barren
+25% Infertile
+50% Fertile & Abundant
When Defiling (and are not a defiler) you get a will save DC15+spell level, or you lose a wisdom point & charisma temporary, when you have lost 2 wisdom points this way, you ‘become a defiler’ and always use the defile ability (and cannot preserve anymore without help from a druid). These ability points can be regained at the rate of 1 point/day, if you become a ‘defiler’ you lose those points of wisdom & charisma permanently.
Don't kill me if you don't like it, or if it's to powerfull, it's just a idea. :D
Robert
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Ok, jhakars, this is what we're including - an option when defiling:
By extending the casting time of your spells when defiling to 1 round, you gain a +1 bonus to caster level and your defiling radius increases by 5 ft. Spells with a normal casting time of 1 round or longer require an extra round to be cast in this manner.
There will also be a raze feat that reduces the increased casting time.
EDIT: You'll recognize this as a rewrite of Player 1's suggestion.
Sounds good! But why not using the 'sorcerer using metamagic' type of slow down? (No offense, I'm just plain curious.)
Defilers have a lots of feats now, now the problem will be that they can't get all of them... If the Arch Defiler PrC will grant bonus defiler feats than it will be highly sought by defilers.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Why is it that a DS2 defiler could not preserve? It was never answered in the original setting. By the current rule set that answer would be addiction. Even if the defiler wants to preserve (it's very practical at times), she can't get herself to do it.
In 2e the clasees were more strict IMHO. (There it was even possible to loose class abilities, see the stupid dual-class rules...) It was fine in 2e to have two classes with non-compatible abilities, even with two wizards. 3e fortunately is better than that. And from setting-wise: I think the assumption was that every wizard can defile, and learning preserving needs extra. Altough it is opposite to the history, as Rajaat educated his students in preserving magic first, and only later in defiling...
And as I wrote: using addiction, require rolls for a defiler to preserve is fine! You can set the difficulty as you wish, so you can put it very high if you like but at least there is a chance to do it. Or you can scale it: every defiler feat the wizard have she get -2 (or -1 whatever) to the roll to preserve. But outright class feature loss is too brutal, especially at a core class.
By the way it is also fine to declare that if a wizard get a defiler PrC (Arch Defiler, Exterminator, etc.) than she is almost never been able to use preserving any more: she gets a huge penalty (-20??) on that. Or I would say that here is acceptable the loss of preserving ability outright.
Newsflash: Magic is not a skill or weapon/armor proficiency.
Really? Blast, that's why my fighter can't cast a Fireball on the Howlers in the game yesterday... :D
The point here is that the arcane abilities of the wizard is a learned one, like the skills or the weapon/armor proficiencies, or the psion's abilities. Nobody grants it, nobody can revoke it. It is up to the wizard only. The wizard can _choose_ not to use it, due to a logical decision, or due to the force of addiction. But she doesn't lost it. Even if the wizard multiclasses to other class, and gets levels in the new class only, totaly neglecting the wizard after that she doesn't loose the ability to cast spells. Then why should the wizard loose the ability to preserve if she starts to defile?
Defilers have a lots of feats now, now the problem will be that they can't get all of them... If the Arch Defiler PrC will grant bonus defiler feats than it will be highly sought by defilers
Although I'm not as in favor of overpowered PrCs, if there's going to be a justifiable way to present defilers as more powerful than preservers/PHB wizards, then by all means it should be as a PrC. I don't mind an unbalanced PrC as much since I can far more easily control who has access to the PrC than I can with a basic core class.
I could also see a defiler PrC that focuses more on gaining the beefed feats in favor of more spellcasting levels, i.e. gains extra feats but only +1 spellcasting levels every odd level of the PrC.
Every arcane spell caster has the ability to defile and make his spell more powerfull.
When defiling, the spell is empowered without making it a higher level spell (add X% to all numerical effects of spells).
This bonus depends on the terrain:
+0% Desolate & Barren
+25% Infertile
+50% Fertile & Abundant
When Defiling (and are not a defiler) you get a will save DC15+spell level, or you lose a wisdom point & charisma temporary, when you have lost 2 wisdom points this way, you ‘become a defiler’ and always use the defile ability (and cannot preserve anymore without help from a druid). These ability points can be regained at the rate of 1 point/day, if you become a ‘defiler’ you lose those points of wisdom & charisma permanently
Empowered stilled silent hightened defiling . . . ouch . . . I think I chipped a tooth . . .
And as I wrote: using addiction, require rolls for a defiler to preserve is fine! You can set the difficulty as you wish, so you can put it very high if you like but at least there is a chance to do it.
Unprecedented in the campaign material and requires excessive recordkeeping. It's bad enough keeping records on amount of times defiled until you fail a save and become a defiler. Keeping records beyond that - ugh.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Unprecedented in the campaign material and requires excessive recordkeeping. It's bad enough keeping records on amount of times defiled until you fail a save and become a defiler. Keeping records beyond that - ugh.
Not neccessarily. The addiction rule doesn't have to contain past defiling numbers. For example: the roll the defiler should make to preserve is a Concentration check, but the relevant ability is WIS instead of CON (as the addiction has to be fight with mental strenght, so WIS is more appropriate here). And the DC can be: 20+level of spell casted in preserver mode+number of defiler feats the wizard has. That's all! Of course playtesting and number crounching is necessary to set the DC formula right (for example setting the base DC to 15 or 25, the modifier is +2 for every defiling feat, etc.) but the mechanic itself doesn't have to be more complicated. And no record keeping is neccessary, as this method use the number of defiler feats taken as a measure of the defiling inclination, not the number of spells cast in defiling mode.
Second: as we discussed earlier, the corruption rule doesn't have to contain mechanics as well, if it is made as pure role-playing question.
Third: And if you keep the corruption mechanic: I think it is not a big deal to put a dot or a star or a short line or anything on the character sheet of the wizard each time she defiles. Based on the current rules in the pdf the current DC for the Will save is 10+spell level+number of previous defilings. It means 5-15 times of defiling when the tainted wizard becomes a defiler. If somebody thinks it is an excessive recordkeeping what would this person say about the handling of HP, power point, etc? And after the wizard becomes a defiler it is not needed to track any more, it can be as well deleted form the character sheet.
Second addition: of course defiler feats gained as bonus feats for example from defiler PrCs count in the check! It doesn't matter how the character acquired the defiling feat, she has it, and that's the point. And the defiler PrCs can suffer from further penalties on this check, if you would like to put emphasis on that part.
Jon, this magic system is quite good! You know I was very antagonistic to it, but now, with these modifications we discuss it starts to become a good compromise for me. I like it, and I'm glad that I could help in that.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every arcane spell caster has the ability to defile and make his spell more powerfull.
When defiling, the spell is empowered without making it a higher level spell (add X% to all numerical effects of spells).
This bonus depends on the terrain:
+0% Desolate & Barren
+25% Infertile
+50% Fertile & Abundant
When Defiling (and are not a defiler) you get a will save DC15+spell level, or you lose a wisdom point & charisma temporary, when you have lost 2 wisdom points this way, you ‘become a defiler’ and always use the defile ability (and cannot preserve anymore without help from a druid). These ability points can be regained at the rate of 1 point/day, if you become a ‘defiler’ you lose those points of wisdom & charisma permanently
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Empowered stilled silent hightened defiling . . . ouch . . . I think I chipped a tooth . . . [/b]
It doesn't mean that everytime when you are a defiler and cast defiling spells, you loose points permanently. I ment that when you become a defiler, you get the damage you have at the moment. And after that you don't loose points anymore. (You are already on the darkside, no more the 'negative' effect of loosing ability points temporary/permanent).
So advantages for defiler:
- Defiler spells are more powerful.
Disadvantages for defiler:
- Ability score loss. (minimum -2 wis, -4 cha)
- Preserver has the flexability to use it (sometimes) or not.
- Defiling is A LOT easier to detect.
People are really tempted to use this power even if they don't want it, they sometimes take a chance to cast more powerful and before they know it, it's to late and become defilers.
Also when i think about it, i change the 1 points CHA damage each time to 2 points (total: 1 wis & 2 cha damage). Then there is a real visible change in the people who become defilers... they really change, become darker/unfriendly/less diplomatic etc...
Anyway, all comments are welcome (even the ones saying im an idiot).
R.
He he he. J/K.
Actually, the only real nitpick I have is with the idea that defiling should cause ability damage. Defiling is supposed to be more powerful, but less easy to conceal. I can see quite easily what you are trying to do, but I think it's a mistake to use ability damage, defilers already suffer from low person skills by the very fact that they're defilers, a preserver at least has some opportunity to pass herself off as another sort of spell/psionic-slinger. Defilers are severely limited in urban environments, whereas preservers, if they're careful, aren't.
So, to wit: A defiler doesn't really need to have the extra penalty to charisma, it's inherent in the very act of defiling and/or being a known defiler. And a defiler really shouldn't have a penalty to Wisdom, you're penalizing them on their only good save, Will.
My 0.2 cp
Star Gazer
Originally posted by Star Gazer
RPL: You're an idiot.
He he he. J/K.
Actually, the only real nitpick I have is with the idea that defiling should cause ability damage. Defiling is supposed to be more powerful, but less easy to conceal. I can see quite easily what you are trying to do, but I think it's a mistake to use ability damage, defilers already suffer from low person skills by the very fact that they're defilers, a preserver at least has some opportunity to pass herself off as another sort of spell/psionic-slinger. Defilers are severely limited in urban environments, whereas preservers, if they're careful, aren't.
So, to wit: A defiler doesn't really need to have the extra penalty to charisma, it's inherent in the very act of defiling and/or being a known defiler. And a defiler really shouldn't have a penalty to Wisdom, you're penalizing them on their only good save, Will.
My 0.2 cp
Star Gazer
I know what your saying
and i feel that defiling should be more powerfull, but.... it should stay a little balanced, else why would you be a preserver? (role play reasons, ok, but there has to be a balance.)With your idea... maybe you can use the same thing for defilers as Jedi who succumb to the darkside (SW mechanics). Defiler-points Half your wisdom and when your lost them you are a defiler.
For the ability damage (maybe the cha penalty is a bit harsh), when people defile... it is doing something against common sense (thats why i think wisdom damage), and you unleash a darker side of yourself (Cha damage). I know it is hard on things like will power, but people with REAL will power wouldn't defile :P and Cha is also needed, but with great power you should be a lot more carefull.
Anyway, is this what do you suggest SG?
*******************
Ability usable by all (Athasian) arcane spellcasters.
Characters never start as defiler, they can however chose to become a defiler at any time.
Every arcane spell caster has the ability to defile and make his spell more powerfull.
When defiling, the spell is empowered without making it a higher level spell (add X% to all numerical effects of spells).
This bonus depends on the terrain:
+0% Desolate & Barren
+25% Infertile
+50% Fertile & Abundant
When Defiling you get a Defile- point (defiler points are equal to half your wisdom) each time you get a defiler point, you must make a wisdom check (DC10 + number of Defiler-points you have). If the character fails the check, he becomes a Defiler and always use the defiler ability (and cannot preserve anymore without help of a druid).
*I still think that the step to the darkside should involve a 'little' cost of wis & cha (with the reasons said above) but this could be optional...?!?!
*******************
keep the comments comming...
R.
p.s. i hate these small windows
Originally posted by Nagypapi
[b]According to Athasian history Rajaat started to teach preserver magic to his followers, and only later started to teach defiler magic to his chosen followers, the champions, to give them extra power over the others -who were mostly preservers. So altough it seems strange, the current system is in line with that in the assumption that every wizard can preserve from the start.
Oh my God, just have a look on the current real life Earth! People kill Earth and the environment for much less benefit than on Athas the defiling gives. For simple money we do that day by day here on this planet now! And who cares about the environment when her life is on the stake? If she has to kill a bunch of plans to make the Fireball stronger and surely kill all the attackers she will do it without hesitation. That is the main difference between preservers and defilers. Defilers don't think for a minute about long-term enviromental effects. The evil ones and exterminators even enjoy it, neutral ones don't give a damn about it. "It's a desert anyway, if a few meter area becomes ash, hey, its not my problem!" (With the same thinking dump companies dangerous waste in the oceans.) Who cares about what will happen in 10 years? Or 20 years? On Athas much people not even live that long. Preservers are the ones who have enough conscience to preserving even in life-and-death situations. And they are the minority.
I tend to agree, and think that this can be applied to the argument fairly well. There has to either be an advantage to defiling, or a penalty to preserving.
There *was* a gain in 2nd Ed. to defile. The way I always saw it, the defilers took the quick and easy way to power. Their magic was sloppy, ripping energy out of Athas, and killing the world. Preservers had to do things very cautiously, and as a result restricted themselves. How many times in the books did Sadira cast a spell, knowing if she drew that that extra bit more, she'd get more power, but would begin defiling?
What if there is an initiative penalty to preservers depending on where they cast their spells?
Or if you defile, you can cast spells as a wizard 2 levels higher than your actual level, but you get the defiling radius which affects everyone around you, and you also suffer a -20 to Bluff attacks?
The way I see it, defilers need to be more powerful, period. That was one of the whole points....many wizards had made the choice of power, and this had destroyed the planet.
Perhaps it's a minor advantage, and then there's a prestige class that a wizard who's chosen to defile can take to become a full defiler. Keep it low enough in level for pre-requisites, like 2nd or 3rd lvl wizard (similar to how the writers of the DLCS have the Wizards of High Sorcery PrC at lvl 3 or 4), and it's a fairly adaptable mechanic. It doesn't significantly alter the core rules for the Wizard, but allows Defilers to really gain that edge they had in 2nd Ed....
Banshee
Originally posted by RPL
I know what your saying
With your idea... maybe you can use the same thing for defilers as Jedi who succumb to the darkside (SW mechanics). Defiler-points Half your wisdom and when your lost them you are a defiler.
(
What if to balance off the abilities of the defiler, their bodies start degrading or something? Maybe defilers start looking more dessicated or something, and take permanent strength or CON hits as they gain levels.
Kind of like how followers of the Dark Side in the SWRPG have their ability scores reduced as they go up in level.
Banshee
The defiler mechanic that I'm toying with at present:
* 1 feat / 4 levels instead of 5
* Any spells that cause damage inflict +1 die. Damage from the last die is always considered lethal. The defiler doesn't incur any benefits from this extra damage that hey may normally, however.
* Ability to maximise damage if he spends one whole round of casting per die above and beyond the standard casting. So a 10th level defiler spending 2 full rounds and a standard action on a fireball gets to throw 2 maximised dice and 8 normal ones + his extra die.
* Ability to reduce the cost of a single metamagic feat on a spell by 1 level if casting is increased to one full round (or double). This ability increases to 2 for defiler dragons.
* Defiler initiative penalty imposed: -1 per 5 levels of the defiler. At 20th level this is the equivalent of an Improved Initiative feat.
And the penalties:
* I use sanity points in my game. Preservers gain 3 times (d12) as many points as defilers (d4).
* Defiler casting and its visibility
* Casting level penalties for poor terrain (which is more common than good terrain)
* Inability to cast on chaos planes such as limbo or in utterly artificial surroundings, such as mechanus.
ciaran
Originally posted by ciaran00
I think many of the folks here are on the wrong track. Though WoTC may (foolishly) demand defiler-preserver balance across the board, the defilers ONLY penalty should be social stigma (as it was in 2e).
You are not the one, however WotC sets the rules as the current DS 3.5 is D&D not just a d20 product.
Out in the desert, a defiler vs. a preserver should reveal the defiler's superiority: he's a better caster because he follows less of the rules. He takes as much as he needs and throws it at his enemies.
The current system has it, as the defiler feats are stronger than the normal metamagic feats. Mainly because they don't need the use of higher level slots.
The defiler mechanic that I'm toying with at present:
* 1 feat / 4 levels instead of 5
* Any spells that cause damage inflict +1 die. Damage from the last die is always considered lethal. The defiler doesn't incur any benefits from this extra damage that hey may normally, however.
* Ability to maximise damage if he spends one whole round of casting per die above and beyond the standard casting. So a 10th level defiler spending 2 full rounds and a standard action on a fireball gets to throw 2 maximised dice and 8 normal ones + his extra die.
* Ability to reduce the cost of a single metamagic feat on a spell by 1 level if casting is increased to one full round (or double). This ability increases to 2 for defiler dragons.
* Defiler initiative penalty imposed: -1 per 5 levels of the defiler. At 20th level this is the equivalent of an Improved Initiative feat.
And the penalties:
* I use sanity points in my game. Preservers gain 3 times (d12) as many points as defilers (d4).
* Defiler casting and its visibility
* Casting level penalties for poor terrain (which is more common than good terrain)
* Inability to cast on chaos planes such as limbo or in utterly artificial surroundings, such as mechanus.
ciaran
The casting level penalty and the inability to cast on certain planets should be valid for preservers as well! Don't forget that both type of wizards uses life force as energy source, so if this source is not present (e.g. Limbo plane) or spare (poor terrain) they are not able to cast any spell.
And if these penalties are valid for preservers as well, you should re-think the defiler benefits to keep them becoming too powerful.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
The casting level penalty and the inability to cast on certain planets should be valid for preservers as well! Don't forget that both type of wizards uses life force as energy source, so if this source is not present (e.g. Limbo plane) or spare (poor terrain) they are not able to cast any spell.
And if these penalties are valid for preservers as well, you should re-think the defiler benefits to keep them becoming too powerful. [/b]
No they shouldn't be valid for preservers. I am not saying that these worlds have zero energy to pull from... I'm saying that defiler's lack of moderation prevents him from casting because he inherently needs MORE energy to cast per spell. The preserver works everywhere because he can always minimise his casting costs.
Lack of subtlety in this case hurts.
Also, the preserver should by all means represent the base wizard. The defiler should represent someone a bit more powerful.
ciaran
So in desolate places there is NO energy for both types of casters.
Originally posted by ciaran00
No they shouldn't be valid for preservers. I am not saying that these worlds have zero energy to pull from... I'm saying that defiler's lack of moderation prevents him from casting because he inherently needs MORE energy to cast per spell. The preserver works everywhere because he can always minimise his casting costs.
Lack of subtlety in this case hurts.
Also, the preserver should by all means represent the base wizard. The defiler should represent someone a bit more powerful.
ciaran
If I may use an analogy: if you have a plate of meal, you can eat it slowly, chewing every drop (preserving magic), or eat it like if you never ate since days, hurry, getting as much as possible in minimal amount of time (defiling magic).
But if there is no meal before you, you can't eat at all, independently of your eating style (lack of energy source for casting).
And if your meal is only some light soup (poor energy source area) you can't be satisfy yourself regardless how you eat, as there is only that much food before you (both preservers and defilers are dependant on the area type to gather energy for casting).
But if you has enough food before you you will be satisfied regardless how you eat it (a defiler doesn't need more energy to cast a spell than the preserver, she just gathers it fast and without care).
Originally posted by player1
Both preserving and defiling magic depend from plant life.
So in desolate places there is NO energy for both types of casters.
Right. In another thread, people were discussing why a defiler shouldn't be able to keep casting on the same spot. Whereas I agree with these points in spirit, I can't do so realisitically. If a preserver is a wizard is a preserver, he has to retain the versatilities of said standard class... whether or not it makes sense (because on the flip side, it doesn't make sense that magic-users are underpowered in comparison to other game worlds). Why does the defiler face this restriction, IMHO? Because they gain other benefits. It's a balance point that serves the flavour of magic issue for me.
This is the same reason why I'll never say that a defiler can't cast in a single point
(A) It's tedious
(B) it makes the class unplayable.
ciaran
Originally posted by Nagypapi
If I may use an analogy
I believe this is a more relevant analogy:
You can try and take food from a fellow prisoner who is weak and has lots of food at his disposal, or you can try and take one from a stronger prisoner who doesn't have much food at his disposal at all.
The second guy is bound to fight tooth and claw. Athas is ravaged by defiling magic, and it has a scarce supply of resources. The defiler takes it from Athas by force, and he succeeds because (A) there's still enough to go around (B) Athas is exploitable. Mechanus might not even know what a defiler is. Much worse, any usable energy in Mechanus is close to zero. Not only is exploiting such a plane difficult, it wouldn't give what little is left to force even if it was tried. The preserver gets to cast because he asks. It's a fundamental difference in survival techniques. In some cases the defiler wins, because might in right. In other cases, the might is right mechanic utterly fails (because who is infinitely strong?).
Also, your analogy is incomplete. It's not like the defiler just eats the food. He also eats a part of the plate!
ciaran
Defilers absorb every bit of life energy they can hold, with the result that the land they tap into is leeched and left barren of nutrients, incapable of supporting plant life. Plants in the defiled area die and turn to ash when the life spark is removed. Unlike with natural death, however, the decaying process occurs in an instant, and nothing remains within the dead ash to continue the life cycle—plants killed by defiling magic return nothing to the soil and don’t revert to life-giving fertilizer when they die. Defilers, therefore, are vampiric, stealing life energy not only because they need it to utilize magic, but for the rush of power it gives them. Basically, defilers take the quick and easy road to power, caring little that they leave devastation in their wake.
Ie: the guy that withdraws only the money he needs from an ATM vs. the guy who enjoys withdrawing money from the ATM pressing buttons at the ATM. I think the bank account is much more likely to have more money missing with the second guy.
ciaran
I think many of the folks here are on the wrong track. Though WoTC may (foolishly) demand defiler-preserver balance across the board, the defilers ONLY penalty should be social stigma (as it was in 2e).
In that case, the conversion of the defiler and preserver class would be unbalanced. So then we have to look at practical application in the game: preservers suck, but are only slightly less threatened socially, defilers rock, but are only slightly more threatened socially. Hmmm . . . not the way I'd like to see my game go. I'd much rather have (as close to) across the board balance between the playable classes as possible. I ca always adjust things myself to make defiler enemies a little more potent if that's my own personal wish, but I'd rather not have one class outshine another (similar) class. As it stands, both preservers and defilers have social ramifications, unless of course one is dealing with a spell that requires no components at all and has no noticible effects. Defilers are simply more noticable because of the defiling radius. Yet even this penalty only applies when there are people around who give a rats arse. A party defiler going lobbing arcana in melee with a pack of tembo in the wastes has no social worries at all, so these supposed penalties inheirent within the class are moot. Also, should I decide to create a region where defilers and preservers are not shunned, I now have a powerhouse class in comparison to the rest. Or perhaps another scenario of DM A keeps forgetting to incorporate the arbitrary 'social penalties' that the defiler has while DM B takes them to the fullest extent in his game. Is there going to be a mediocum of balance for the defiler in both people's game? Granted, an overpowered defiler does indeed preserve a smidgeon of the setting's flavor, but I'm not sure that the inclusion of sanity points as an offsetting penalty does much for bringing out the DS flavor.
So, while you may consider it (the balance issue) foolishness, I consider it an attempt at rectifying the biggest flaw of D&D since it came out. Granted, there will never be 100% balance in the type of system that D&D is, but intentional skewing of that class balance is not really what I'm hoping for in any of my games. Guess I'm just as foolish then as WOTC . . . or maybe, just maybe, they're on to something.
(Don't mean to sound critical or condescending here, its not meant as a flame or attack, its just how the rambling mind is working these days)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
In that case, the conversion of the defiler and preserver class would be unbalanced.
That would be the very intention, yeah. Having run a Dark Sun game for a while, though, it has been my experience that this 'tiny' social stigma point is a big one. Defilers are hard pressed to cast in most or any social situations because their magic is visible to EVERYONE. Not sure how many people with Detect Magic continuously on you have running around in your game, but public knowledge of casting is a significant disadvantage. Doing it, the defiler not only puts his own bodyguard at a disadvantage, he is hard pressed to do it in his OWN camp.
So then we have to look at practical application in the game: preservers suck, but are only slightly less threatened socially,
Having something like the Veiled Alliance isn't an issue at all? Recall that defilers have no such respite.
. . not the way I'd like to see my game go. I'd much rather have (as close to) across the board balance between the playable classes as possible.
So would I, but grossly enforced mechanical balance makes your Dark Sun game a misrepresentation of the original. Grossly unbalanced player classes makes your game unplayable.
I ca always adjust things myself to make defiler enemies a little more potent if that's my own personal wish, but I'd rather not have one class outshine another (similar) class.
Then you've missed the point of this exercise (forum thread): Why would a preserver WANT to become a defiler? If they were balanced as you say, I as a preserver would never switch, or even consider doing it.
Yet even this penalty only applies when there are people around who give a rats arse. A party defiler going lobbing arcana in melee with a pack of tembo in the wastes has no social worries at all, so these supposed penalties inheirent within the class are moot.
Nor should the tembo care, but what about the party? If you're playing a party of bastards, then yeah an evil party with a defiler shouldn't matter. But that doesn't exactly make your point either. If you as a DM are doing nothing to differentiate a defiler from a standard caster (as it should be apparent: the guy turns his surroundings to ash by what he does. This is not a trivial issue) then it would seem like the social stigma aspect doesn't matter at all.
Also, should I decide to create a region where defilers and preservers are not shunned, I now have a powerhouse class in comparison to the rest.
Yeah, and a defiler dragon in Planescape near well kills everything else. What's your point. Take the Athas out of Athas and you have a problem on your hands. You're right. Context is an important aspect of the game. Shouldn't it be? No one is designing core bland-setting classes here. They're Dark Sun classes.
Or perhaps another scenario of DM A keeps forgetting to incorporate the arbitrary 'social penalties' that the defiler has while DM B takes them to the fullest extent in his game. Is there going to be a mediocum of balance for the defiler in both people's game?
I'd hate to think that any book has a formula for correcting DM ineptitude.
Granted, an overpowered defiler does indeed preserve a smidgeon of the setting's flavor, but I'm not sure that the inclusion of sanity points as an offsetting penalty does much for bringing out the DS flavor.
You'd be better off making that judgment call AFTER a session in my game. My defiler player still hasn't stopped arguing with me for giving him a d4's worth of points per level. Apparently he thinks it's a major penalty.
Also, I'm not including sanity points in with everything else. I'm including everything else with sanity points. It's one of the cornerstones of my game. I didn't say that the formula would work for everyone
Guess I'm just as foolish then as WOTC . . . or maybe, just maybe, they're on to something.
Maybe they just want to not make their game world and make it too. Applying the FR formula to Dark Sun destroys its flavour.
(Don't mean to sound critical or condescending here, its not meant as a flame or attack, its just how the rambling mind is working these days)
Don't worry about it. Apparently we both like Dark Sun and we both like discussing balance. I couldn't be a better DM if I didn't browse these forums for opposing views.
ciaran
Surely only someone knowledgeable in arcane spellcasting is going to know thta the different shade of green indicates a preserver rather than a defiler and the rock throwing mob isn't going to wait to see how much ash has been formed before stoning that wizard. Both preservers and defilers are visible spellcasters and share the social stigma of being Wizards. Most athasians don't know (or care) about different sorts of wizard spellcasting. They just believe wizards are responsible for the destruction of the land and are a bad thing.
Having run a Dark Sun game for a while, though, it has been my experience that this 'tiny' social stigma point is a big one. Defilers are hard pressed to cast in most or any social situations because their magic is visible to EVERYONE.
In your game. Think about that at least a little. Does everyone play excactly the same? No, they absolutely do not. Hence, a role-playing penalty in your game may not be a penalty in someone elses. That was the point that I was trying to get across, but perhaps failed to do so.
Next: the social penalty applies in my games at least at varying degrees at various times for various classes. People in my games may start shouting for templars if they see anyone at all acting like they are casting a spell, even if its a cleric. Should I add some bonuses to the cleric to compensate? Also, I've turned the Bandit States in one campaign into a defiler refuge (sorta, long story). Does the mechanical bonus to being a defiler not apply when the defiler travels there, since his penalty surely doesn't.
Having something like the Veiled Alliance isn't an issue at all? Recall that defilers have no such respite.
Now here is a perfect example of the arbitrary nature of 'social bonuses ad penalties'. Most preservers in my game would feel very justified in asking for a few extra bonuses since they have to contend with the penalty of having to deal with the Veilled Alliance.
I'd hate to think that any book has a formula for correcting DM ineptitude
Once again, not ineptitude neccessarily, simply that everyone plays differently. Would it be different if the decision to ignore role-playing aspects in favor of pure hack and slash?
You'd be better off making that judgment call AFTER a session in my game. My defiler player still hasn't stopped arguing with me for giving him a d4's worth of points per level. Apparently he thinks it's a major penalty
Huh? I think you totally misread me here. I don't care about the mechanic's balance in regards to the class here, only that you were advocating in favor of flavor, yet this in turn seems to be a flavor breaker to me since DS doesn't use sanity points. I was simply pointing out what seemed to me to be a contradiction of sorts.
Okay, I'll put this simply. Role-playing advantages and disadvantages are not figured into the mechanics for a reason. That reason is because every DM deals with them to a different degree. Yes, the defiler has a serious role-playing penalty. So do preservers, only slightly less. So do clerics and psions to an extent. But this is my personal take, which may in fact differ from someone elses (and that's OKAY). Its unfair to give a bonus to a class when there may or may not be a penalty to offset that bonus, depending on the particulars of that camapign and the playing styles of the DM and party. A +1 is a +1 is a +1 across the board; role-playing penalties (and in some cases bonuses) are not so cut and dry though. How much of a penalty defilers have for casting spells in public places depends entirely on the DM. If, in one DM's campaign, its as good as a death sentence, then the offsetting bonuses would have to be tremendous. If, in another DMs campaign, its no big deal, then the offsetting bonuses should be small. Who decides? The individual DM. That's why its not a good idea to counter balance role-playing penalties with mechanics.
I'm a very strict, ruthless, cunning, rat bastardly DM. I've had clerics lynched for casting spells in a village of paranoid peasants who thought the caster may just be a wizard. Since I take it to a bit more of an extreme than some, should the core rules give all spellcasters some kind of bonuses to compensate? That's my whole point. Yes, defilers have a serious crutch. But let the individual DMs, who are the one's deciding just how severe the penalty is, decide how best to compensate for it should they chose to do so.
Most athasians don't know (or care) about different sorts of wizard spellcasting.
I couldn't agree with you more; at least, that's how I run things. I go a little further though in that most people are so afraid of defilers that anyone who is not a confirmed cleric or psion has cause to worry. Just waving your arms about and speaking spell-like gibberish can get incite a mob. The masses leave it up to the templars or village guards to sort out who's who. By the reverse though, most tribal arcane spellcasters in my game are defilers (elves mostly), so there is far less social stigma out in the wastes for defilers than in the cities (which is a relief to all spellcasters who are stuck with flashy or component heavy spells).
Well, the residents of Athas are the Quick and the Dead :D
I just thought it was worth pointing out that people talk about the social stigma for defilers when in fact it is for wizards. I always thought it very appropriate that the preservers are trying hard to preserve but get tarred with the same brush as the defilers. Makes it a bit more heroic to be a preserver while also more tempting for the preserver to defile. ("I'll do it this once 'cos everybody assumes I'm a defiler anyway!")
How extreme an individual GM is on this is up to them. I always have elemental clerics pretty obvious about their faith and their spellcasting always clearly involves their element. Druids on the other hand, with their lack of armour and swords can easily be mistaken for potential wizards and rounded up by the templars.
Mach2.5, I'm interested in what you've done with the bandit states. My own campaign is set there and the PCs have recently discovered that a defiler everybody thinks is dead may be active in trying to gain control of the area.
Mach2.5, I'm interested in what you've done with the bandit states. My own campaign is set there and the PCs have recently discovered that a defiler everybody thinks is dead may be active in trying to gain control of the area.
Well, this is about as off topic as they come so:
Ran a little with the Bandit States as the PCs were on their way to the Jagged Cliffs. They pit stopped in Spoil, allied with Densis the defiler against both Talid (of Ravage) and Kel (of Kel's Lot) to assume control of a unified Bandit Nation (renamed simply The League). They left all smug and happy, not knowing they were duped (the PCs were supposed to side with anyone else against Densis, but they failed). With the reluctant aid of the merchant minded dwarves of Kel's lot, the bastion that Ravage is (now the capitol), and the elite elven shock troops of Plunder, the PCs returned to find the League a haven for depravity and defilers. They never did stick around to 'fix' their mistake either, dang them. I haven't had another group head so far up north yet, so I'm not sure if I'll let the changes stick or not in the newer campaign. Its all rather messy.
Okay, sorry. We now return you to our regularly scheduled debate.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
[b]Just a little point that many people seem to be ignoring - preservers gathering energy to cast a spell is just as visible as a defiler. The description in Defilers and Preservers of Athas says that when both gather energy you see tendrils of glowing green energy flowing from the plants into the caster.
Not everyone's ignoring it. My point is that there are varying degrees of hiding spellcasting. Easier for clerics, not so easy for preservers, and close to impossible for defilers. Not only that, the latter is baneful to people who could be said to have come to grips with your casting.
Surely only someone knowledgeable in arcane spellcasting is going to know thta the different shade of green indicates a preserver rather than a defiler and the rock throwing mob isn't going to wait to see how much ash has been formed before stoning that wizard.
Green tendrils are a lot harder to pick up simply because A) they're gone post-casting unlike a radius of ash, B) it's a purely visible and not total sensory element like the smell of ozone and burning earth.
ciaran
Originally posted by Mach2.5
In your game. Think about that at least a little. Does everyone play excactly the same? No, they absolutely do not. Hence, a role-playing penalty in your game may not be a penalty in someone elses. That was the point that I was trying to get across, but perhaps failed to do so.
I don't think it's a stretch to imagine some semblance to Dark Sun society in a Dark Sun game. If there isn't, then you and I aren't talking about a Dark Sun game together, so it's a moot point. You're free to run your game however you want, but if the whole point of Dark Sun city-states and the basic incentive for players to interact/be inside them is missed in your game then you're playing a different game with different defilers and preservers.
Next: the social penalty applies in my games at least at varying degrees at various times for various classes. People in my games may start shouting for templars if they see anyone at all acting like they are casting a spell, even if its a cleric. Should I add some bonuses to the cleric to compensate?
Of course you should. In this particular case, the "bonus" is for a cleric to use a skill or two (Sleight of Hand? Bluff?) to conceal his somatic gestures. This has been a feature of Dark Sun from the very beginning. The cleric, fortunately for him, doesn't create a hard to miss landmark like a circle of ash when he casts. I think there is a significant degree of difference in visibility here.
Also, I've turned the Bandit States in one campaign into a defiler refuge (sorta, long story). Does the mechanical bonus to being a defiler not apply when the defiler travels there, since his penalty surely doesn't.
So what? Do your bandits enjoy coughing and throwing their lungs out every time a defiler casts? No. The penalties aren't obvious, but they're there. A defiler is at a great advantage, socially, at such a bandit state but, shouldn't he be at a financial disadvantage? Is a bandit state as equipped with components and supplies as a city state? Coming up with disadvantages isn't a stretch. You may not want to do it, but we're talking about differences between defilers and preservers. If you're going to argue at the end of the day that there is no REASON why a person would prefer to be a defiler over a preserver, then we shouldn't have this conversation (esp. not in this thread). What you haven't answered, while replying to my multitude of posts is, why would a person be tempted to be a defiler? In your game, there doesn't seem to be much of a reason. If there isn't, then you can't particularly argue the flavour point. It's not really Dark Sun. It's just the shell of Dark Sun.
Now here is a perfect example of the arbitrary nature of 'social bonuses ad penalties'. Most preservers in my game would feel very justified in asking for a few extra bonuses since they have to contend with the penalty of having to deal with the Veilled Alliance.
I'm sorry for them.
Once again, not ineptitude neccessarily, simply that everyone plays differently. Would it be different if the decision to ignore role-playing aspects in favor of pure hack and slash?
Oh yeah. Pure hack and slash game are loads of fun *blech*
Huh? I think you totally misread me here. I don't care about the mechanic's balance in regards to the class here, only that you were advocating in favor of flavor, yet this in turn seems to be a flavor breaker to me since DS doesn't use sanity points. I was simply pointing out what seemed to me to be a contradiction of sorts.
My point isn't to provide everyone with a system. As this was a suggestions thread, I listed what I use in my game. The sanity point issue comes as an alternative to Defiler Charisma penalties. You're free to insert your own (equivalent) mechanic there.
Okay, I'll put this simply. Role-playing advantages and disadvantages are not figured into the mechanics for a reason.
You're wrong. Look at the monk and paladin classes.
Its unfair to give a bonus to a class when there may or may not be a penalty to offset that bonus, depending on the particulars of that camapign and the playing styles of the DM and party.
Then it's not Dark Sun, sorry. It's Forgotten Realms in the desert. The cleansing wars and the entire choice in the past of defiling over preserving is a comment on the difficulties of being good. Also, think about this: I've never said that an Avangion isn't superior to a Dragon. In fact, I'd select avangion metamorphosis over dragon mm any day.
Who decides? The individual DM. That's why its not a good idea to counter balance role-playing penalties with mechanics.
As I've said, this isn't something new to this discussion. Classes have alignment penalties, and some incur bonuses because of this fact. Whether or not a DM believes that paladins can drink and abuse women shouldn't change the class. It's the DM's issue to stay true to the idea of the class.
And is it the DM's choice? Yeah. But can he call the paladin who drinks and abuses women a paladin? Not really.
I'm a very strict, ruthless, cunning, rat bastardly DM. I've had clerics lynched for casting spells in a village of paranoid peasants who thought the caster may just be a wizard. Since I take it to a bit more of an extreme than some, should the core rules give all spellcasters some kind of bonuses to compensate? That's my whole point. Yes, defilers have a serious crutch. But let the individual DMs, who are the one's deciding just how severe the penalty is, decide how best to compensate for it should they chose to do so. [/b]
Or, alternately the base system should represent Dark Sun as it is, and any deviations are more than welcome to take the bonuses out.
ciaran
It's the DM's issue to stay true to the idea of the class.
I give . . . take a stance, and stick to it.
Originally posted by ciaran00
Right. In another thread, people were discussing why a defiler shouldn't be able to keep casting on the same spot. Whereas I agree with these points in spirit, I can't do so realisitically. If a preserver is a wizard is a preserver, he has to retain the versatilities of said standard class... whether or not it makes sense (because on the flip side, it doesn't make sense that magic-users are underpowered in comparison to other game worlds). Why does the defiler face this restriction, IMHO? Because they gain other benefits. It's a balance point that serves the flavour of magic issue for me.
This is the same reason why I'll never say that a defiler can't cast in a single point
(A) It's tedious
(B) it makes the class unplayable.
ciaran
As we are discussing it on the other thread here, defilers CAN cast standing in the same spot, if the terrain anyway has enough life (so not on the Obsidian Wastes). It can't go other way, mostly for game balance reasons. The question was how they can do that, how does it affect the defiling radius, and is there a limit in that somewhere.
have a look:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137516&perpage=30&pagenumber=2
Originally posted by ciaran00
Also, your analogy is incomplete. It's not like the defiler just eats the food. He also eats a part of the plate!
ciaran
I don't agree. The end result of the casting is a given spell, be it Fireball, Ice Storm, Teleport, whatever. It is possible, that due to defiling or defiler feats the effect (effective caster level) is stronger, but it's still the same effect. The defilers and preservers gain energy the same way, casting the same way and producing the same effects. The only difference is in the speed and care of the energy gathering mechanism, which can give a slight boost, but doesn't change the whole. Just think about the wizard casting the 'Teleport' spell. Is there any difference if a preserver or a defiler does it? Except the effect on the plants nearby, no.
Originally posted by ciaran00
[b] My point isn't to provide everyone with a system. As this was a suggestions thread, I listed what I use in my game. The sanity point issue comes as an alternative to Defiler Charisma penalties. You're free to insert your own (equivalent) mechanic there.[/b
The problem is that the official DS conversion has to provide a system for everybody, independently of their personal gaming style. So stating that your system is how good -altough acceptable- doesn't solve the problem.
You're wrong. Look at the monk and paladin classes.
The game mechanic alignment is a tricky bastard, altough it's understandable why is is included in the D&D system. But don't forget that alignment restrictions are not equal to social bonuses or penalties. Does a monk (lawful should she be) have a social benefit or hindrace compared to a barbarian (who has to be chaotic)? No. There are situations where one is better, and there are other situs where the other is more useful. But having an alignment restriction in itself is no penalty.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
I don't agree. The end result of the casting is a given spell, be it Fireball, Ice Storm, Teleport, whatever. It is possible, that due to defiling or defiler feats the effect (effective caster level) is stronger, but it's still the same effect.
It's not. Defilers are actively destroying Athas just by casting spells. This is an essential flavour element that you can't just ignore. That the defiler ENJOYS drawing power from the land makes him less (if at all) capable of moderation. This means that he always (or almost always) draws more than he needs.
This is why rides at Disneyland begin and end. If they were totally cyclic, depending on people to VOLUNTEER coming off the ride then no one would hardly ever get on because the rides would always be full. People have fun on rides, and it's difficult to expect them to simply stop on their own. Don't carry the analogy too far... the defiler never gets bored of defiling. It's always a rush.
ciaran
Originally posted by Nagypapi
[b]The problem is that the official DS conversion has to provide a system for everybody, independently of their personal gaming style. So stating that your system is how good -altough acceptable- doesn't solve the problem.[b]
So you think that the question in this thread is illegitimate? That there shouldn't be a reason for a preserver to want to be a defiler? Any *DS* conversion should be DS first, yeah?
ciaran
Originally posted by ciaran00
It's not. Defilers are actively destroying Athas just by casting spells. This is an essential flavour element that you can't just ignore.
I don't ignore it. What I try to say is that there is only one working mechanism of wizardly magic on Athas:
1) Collect energy from plant life
2) Shape it with the usage of verbal, somatic and material components to the desired effect
3) The effect is created
The difference between defilers and preservers is in the step 1 only.
That the defiler ENJOYS drawing power from the land makes him less (if at all) capable of moderation. This means that he always (or almost always) draws more than he needs.
In the official 3.5e version defilers loose the ability to preserve which can be explained with the addiction you describe. But don't forget the reason why the wizard gets more spells on higher levels. She is able to collect more energy which she can use to cast spells. On a lower level she is not able to collect and control too much energy. And if she drains too much energy, and not able to get rid off of it through a spell these energies can as well tore her apart.
Originally posted by ciaran00
So you think that the question in this thread is illegitimate?
Sorry if I sounded impolite, I have no right to tell anybody what should he/she speak about. But this thread was started by Jon to discuss the official verson of preserver/defiler magic, so I tried to reflect on your proposed system with the comparison of the official system.
That there shouldn't be a reason for a preserver to want to be a defiler? Any *DS* conversion should be DS first, yeah?
ciaran
That's right, and you have every right to create house rules. And I say that even under the game balance pressure from WotC the offical version contains benefits for the defilers, both instant and long run. If you want more drastical benefits, go ahead, change the rules, but know what you do. The more you deviate from a balanced system in favour of something the more it becomes difficult to keep the game under control as a DM. It is not impossible but hard. And there is a reason for everything -including the question 'why is it not good to balance game mechanic benefits with roleplaying/setting/social hindraces'.
Defiler
(same as Wizard except where noted)
Saving throws: Fort, Ref, and Will are all slow track for the Defiler.
Class Abilities:
Art of the Defiler: All spells cast by the defiler are of +1 caster level. The Defiler cannot cast in lifeless areas. Furthermore, the Defiler when casting makes all plant life in the surrounding area turn to ash and leeches the soil of all nutrients, with a radius of 5 feet/spell level. All living beings feel a distinctive tug (though suffer no ill effects) within the same radius and all plant life withers; thus any attempt to discover the spellcasting receives a +20 bonus. Any plant creatures in the area of defiler is drawing power from takes 1d6/spell level in addition to the spell's normal effects, if any. Finally, the defiler receives a +5 class bonus to Spellcraft checks for learning or researching new spells.
Lesser Defilement (2nd level): The defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of one level as a sorcerer (without changing the spell slot used) if he or she is in a non-lifeless area. As per normal rules of spontaneous metamagic, a normal spell takes a full-round action to cast (unless the Quicken metamagic is used). The effective spell level may not exceed 9th (thus cannot be used on ninth level spells, which would make it a 10th level spell).
Defilement (8th level): Same as Lesser Defilement, except the defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of 1d2 levels as long as he or she is in a fertile area.
Defile the Body (12th level): In times of desperation, the defiler may cast in lifeless areas by drawing energy from one's own body, but not nearly as safely as a preserver. He or she takes 1d12/spell level of spell he or she is attempting to cast, but any attempt to discover the spellcasting only receives a +5 bonus, mainly from the damage caused to the caster by drawing upon one's own life-force.
Ultimate Defilement (17th level): Same as Lesser Defilement, except, the defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of 2d2 levels as long as he or she is in a fertile area.
Redemption: The defiler can undergo an arduous quest to become a Preserver, if which success loses all Defiler levels and gains Preserver levels of the same amount. However, his poor Will save stays the same, and is not replaced by Preserver Will saves. Note that a fallen Preserver that is redeemed will forever have poor will saves of a Defiler for his Preserver levels.
Preserver
(same as Wizard except where noted)
Class Abilities:
Art of the Preserver: The Preserver does not destroy plant life when casting, as he or she is trained in the gentle use of life-energy and only uses the bare minimum necessary. He or she still may not cast in lifeless areas, however.
Discipline of the Mind (6th level): The Preserver may cast in lifeless areas by drawing upon the body's own life-energy. He or she takes 1d4/spell level in damage by doing so.
Mastery of the Mind (12th level): The Preserver may cast in lifeless areas, but takes 1d2/spell level in damage by doing so.
Walking the Line: At any time the Preserver may cast a spell (with all appropriate class abilities) as a Defiler of the same level, but afterwards must immediately make a Will Save of 10 + 2 * All times the Preserver has ever defiled. If she or he fails, he immediately loses all Preserver levels and becomes a Defiler of the same level, with all penalties and benefits (Poor Will Save, cannot Preserve or use Discipline or Mastery of the Mind, etc).
Defiler
(same as Wizard except where noted)
Saving throws: Fort, Ref, and Will are all slow track for the Defiler.
Class Abilities:
Art of the Defiler: All spells cast by the defiler are of +1 caster level. The Defiler cannot cast in lifeless areas. Furthermore, the Defiler when casting makes all plant life in the surrounding area turn to ash and leeches the soil of all nutrients, with a radius of 5 feet/spell level. All living beings feel a distinctive tug (though suffer no ill effects) within the same radius and all plant life withers; thus any attempt to discover the spellcasting receives a +20 bonus. Any plant creatures in the area of defiler is drawing power from takes 1d6/spell level in addition to the spell's normal effects, if any. Finally, the defiler receives a +5 class bonus to Spellcraft checks for learning or researching new spells.
Lesser Defilement (2nd level): The defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of one level as a sorcerer (without changing the spell slot used) if he or she is in a non-lifeless area. As per normal rules of spontaneous metamagic, a normal spell takes a full-round action to cast (unless the Quicken metamagic is used). The effective spell level may not exceed 9th (thus cannot be used on ninth level spells, which would make it a 10th level spell).
Defilement (8th level): Same as Lesser Defilement, except the defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of 1d2 levels as long as he or she is in a fertile area.
Defile the Body (12th level): In times of desperation, the defiler may cast in lifeless areas by drawing energy from one's own body, but not nearly as safely as a preserver. He or she takes 1d12/spell level of spell he or she is attempting to cast, but any attempt to discover the spellcasting only receives a +5 bonus, mainly from the damage caused to the caster by drawing upon one's own life-force.
Ultimate Defilement (17th level): Same as Lesser Defilement, except, the defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of 2d2 levels as long as he or she is in a fertile area.
Redemption: The defiler can undergo an arduous quest to become a Preserver, if which success loses all Defiler levels and gains Preserver levels of the same amount. However, his poor Will save stays the same, and is not replaced by Preserver Will saves. Note that a fallen Preserver that is redeemed will forever have poor will saves of a Defiler for his Preserver levels.
Preserver
(same as Wizard except where noted)
Class Abilities:
Art of the Preserver: The Preserver does not destroy plant life when casting, as he or she is trained in the gentle use of life-energy and only uses the bare minimum necessary. He or she still may not cast in lifeless areas, however.
Discipline of the Mind (6th level): The Preserver may cast in lifeless areas by drawing upon the body's own life-energy. He or she takes 1d4/spell level in damage by doing so.
Mastery of the Mind (12th level): The Preserver may cast in lifeless areas, but takes 1d2/spell level in damage by doing so.
Walking the Line: At any time the Preserver may cast a spell (with all appropriate class abilities) as a Defiler of the same level, but afterwards must immediately make a Will Save of 10 + 2 * All times the Preserver has ever defiled. If she or he fails, he immediately loses all Preserver levels and becomes a Defiler of the same level, with all penalties and benefits (Poor Will Save, cannot Preserve or use Discipline or Mastery of the Mind, etc).
Defiler
(same as Wizard except where noted)
Saving throws: Fort, Ref, and Will are all slow track for the Defiler.
Class Abilities:
Art of the Defiler: All spells cast by the defiler are of +1 caster level. The Defiler cannot cast in lifeless areas. Furthermore, the Defiler when casting makes all plant life in the surrounding area turn to ash and leeches the soil of all nutrients, with a radius of 5 feet/spell level. All living beings feel a distinctive tug (though suffer no ill effects) within the same radius and all plant life withers; thus any attempt to discover the spellcasting receives a +20 bonus. Any plant creatures in the area of defiler is drawing power from takes 1d6/spell level in addition to the spell's normal effects, if any. Finally, the defiler receives a +5 class bonus to Spellcraft checks for learning or researching new spells.
Lesser Defilement (2nd level): The defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of one level as a sorcerer (without changing the spell slot used) if he or she is in a non-lifeless area. As per normal rules of spontaneous metamagic, a normal spell takes a full-round action to cast (unless the Quicken metamagic is used). The effective spell level may not exceed 9th (thus cannot be used on ninth level spells, which would make it a 10th level spell).
Defilement (8th level): Same as Lesser Defilement, except the defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of 1d2 levels as long as he or she is in a fertile area.
Defile the Body (12th level): In times of desperation, the defiler may cast in lifeless areas by drawing energy from one's own body, but not nearly as safely as a preserver. He or she takes 1d12/spell level of spell he or she is attempting to cast, but any attempt to discover the spellcasting only receives a +5 bonus, mainly from the damage caused to the caster by drawing upon one's own life-force.
Ultimate Defilement (17th level): Same as Lesser Defilement, except, the defiler may spontaneously add metamagic of 2d2 levels as long as he or she is in a fertile area.
Redemption: The defiler can undergo an arduous quest to become a Preserver, if which success loses all Defiler levels and gains Preserver levels of the same amount. However, his poor Will save stays the same, and is not replaced by Preserver Will saves. Note that a fallen Preserver that is redeemed will forever have poor will saves of a Defiler for his Preserver levels.
Preserver
(same as Wizard except where noted)
Class Abilities:
Art of the Preserver: The Preserver does not destroy plant life when casting, as he or she is trained in the gentle use of life-energy and only uses the bare minimum necessary. He or she still may not cast in lifeless areas, however.
Discipline of the Mind (6th level): The Preserver may cast in lifeless areas by drawing upon the body's own life-energy. He or she takes 1d4/spell level in damage by doing so.
Mastery of the Mind (12th level): The Preserver may cast in lifeless areas, but takes 1d2/spell level in damage by doing so.
Walking the Line: At any time the Preserver may cast a spell (with all appropriate class abilities) as a Defiler of the same level, but afterwards must immediately make a Will Save of 10 + 2 * All times the Preserver has ever defiled. If she or he fails, he immediately loses all Preserver levels and becomes a Defiler of the same level, with all penalties and benefits (Poor Will Save, cannot Preserve or use Discipline or Mastery of the Mind, etc).
It's certainly reasonable in and of itself though I wouldn't combine it with any other Defiling rules - I might for example use it (or something very similar) in a game with new players (and NPC Defilers).
Very much in favour of the article in Dragon #315 (though in my games I'll be using a graded table of random effects (that grow more serious the more points one gathers) rather than simply altering Stats... that's pretty harsh (though thier effects are likely to modify roles based on Stats - notably Charisma and Constitution). Clearly it raises issues of game balance (in keeping an advancing Defiler on par with a core Wizard) - I reckon it's worth risking a little imbalance for more interesting characters though, especially where it concerns a subject as important as Defiling.
I'd like to see something a little more creative than just meditating (or casting a spell) to atone for Defiling (ie: to reduce one's current Defiling score)... the components for the spell & it's method of casting could be worth investigating.
I'd take a moment to second Nagypapi's point about an Athasian wizards selection of spells & that allowing any Arcane spell caster to use Defiling magic is something we want - with suitable consequences of course.
Subdual damage from Defiling opens up an interesting avenue, but most other forums that have looked at variations on a HP cost in payment for benefits are invariably dismissed as too much of a potential disadvantage for characters with D4's for HP & unbalancing for those classes with higher dice.
(The 'Ghul Lord' of Al'Quadim I had always thought to be a really interesting character (though invariably too short on HP) - I've used them as natives of the Obsidian Plains where its the only spellcasting method available, maybe because of some 'smothering' effect of the Gray or whatever - it made for an interesting setting)
Maybe an extension on Xeros idea (becuase of the extent of damage done to Athas' life by Defiling?) that a Spellcraft check is required to avoid Defiling in infertile terrain or worse.
Not sure about Efficient Razing being built in though, seems to suggest a Defiler is another class... not a bad idea for the kind of benefit I'd use in a Prestige Class though.
Defnitely like Sculpt Defiling and Focused Defiling (thanks Nagypapi).
Don't forget, it'd be nice to be able to apply the same (or nearly identical) mechanics to Necromancers & Cerulean Wizards (those whose power is based in the Gray and Cerulean Storm repectively (initially detailed in 2e Defilers & Preservers)).
Very much want to avoid addiction rules - much of what makes Dark Sun unique is the constant challenges one faces, that the decisions each character makes helps define them, especially those that really challenge their morals to 'do the right thing' especially where the 'right thing' is open to interpretation. That's another debate entirely though.
I always thought that a person (who has a concept of right and wrong & the ability to be educated) should have the choice of Defiling where in contrast the creatures who use Defiling magic do so because they're the result of Defiling magic (either directly or indirectly).
synaesthetic: thanks for the thanks.
I hope you find the feats useful. Any feedback based on real playtest is highly welcome, as I couldn't do too much.Jon did a very good Arch Defiler PrC, which can be reached by every wizard stepping on the defiler way. Definitely a must-have for every power hungry arcane magic user out there... :D And having this has a significant benefit: the core wizard class can be kept balanced (thus, official) as all the steriods go into the PrC. :D
1) Defiling is not merely a social penalty. It many places, being a wizard is a death sentence. A Preserver has a much easier time hiding his magic than a defiler, for reasons that are so painfully obvious I don't have to discuss them. Being a much more obvious caster is a SEVERE penalty.
2) It is much easier for a Preserver to do covert and subtle magic than defilers which is an advantage even in places where wizardry is tolerant.
3) The social penalty is fairly severe. Having every druid in Athas thinking that the best use for your character is plant fertilizer is just the tip of the iceburg.
4) Preservers are much better at networking with each other. The Veiled Alliance is the best example, but not the only one. The access to components, spells, and bolt holes is very useful.
2. The Arch-Defiler PrC as was mentioned, does solve many of these problems. Expanding them beyond the normal Base Class with PrC's to fill them out and make them more powerful, that, in my opinion, and thankfully the view of WotC and what Athas.org seems to be striving for, is how to work such power into Defilers.
1) Every wizard is just a wizard. From here there are two main paths: starting preserver and starting defiler. For the first option, there should be feats and inherent bonuses to defiling, but as a wizard defiles, he or she gain the penalties of defiling until he or she becomes a defiler and can no longer preserve, gaining all associated penalties. For the other option, there should be a skill or feat (or both) that allows the mage the option of preserving. This can be balanced with defiling feats to cut the preserver off from greater power -- there should be a penalty for preserving if every wizard starts out defiling, since it would provide a temptation against preserving, making many more mages defilers, and it would provide a temptation to become a defiler, for the extra power.
2) Defiling and preserving are different classes, but defilers enjoy some benefit making their magic more powerful than preserver magic. Possibilities include powerful feets available only to defilers that grant better than usual bonsuses for a feat at no addition cost or a marginal cost in extended defiling radius (start eating up hectares of land with a single spell and you will get a host of adventurerers coming out to kill you, after all) or altering existing feets, such as making metamagic feets use one spell slot less than they normally do, so a maximized spell would only use two spell slots higher and an extended spell would use a spell slot of the same level. This should be balanced by the near universal hatred of defilers and the difficulty of hiding defiling magics, so the benefits don't outweigh the penalties. There could also be an outright bonus to defilers, such as their spells lasting longer than normal, being of a higher effective caster level, being more difficult to resist, etc.
1) ECL races. Dark sun races are intended to be powerful and that enable them to be so. Fairly close to the Dragon article, but using the Burnt World half giants
2) Slightly different materials rules.
3) Using class based AC and armor DR rules
4)Templars cast off of Charisma and have up to 8th level spells
5) Gladiators are arena fighting prestige class. Bards are assassin-like prestige class.
6) Using the weapon group proficiency rules
7) World specific feats, including powerful Defiler feats
8) Defilers and Preservers are both Wizards. It is far easier to fall that to climb up into being a Preserver. Defiling leaves a spiritual "mark".
9) The number of spells that can be memorized and their power is based on the terrain the energy is drawn from. Defilers get a bonus for sucking out all the energy.
10) Everyone is an improved Wild Talent.
11) No paladins or sorcerers. No monks either, as psionicist take up the cultural space and not being hosed by the materials rules gives them a big advantage. I am less opossed to monks than paladins or sorcerers.
Originally posted by Enslaved DM
Defilers MUST be more powerful the Preservers, not just for flavor, but for game balance.
1) Defiling is not merely a social penalty. It many places, being a wizard is a death sentence. A Preserver has a much easier time hiding his magic than a defiler, for reasons that are so painfully obvious I don't have to discuss them. Being a much more obvious caster is a SEVERE penalty.
2) It is much easier for a Preserver to do covert and subtle magic than defilers which is an advantage even in places where wizardry is tolerant.
3) The social penalty is fairly severe. Having every druid in Athas thinking that the best use for your character is plant fertilizer is just the tip of the iceburg.
4) Preservers are much better at networking with each other. The Veiled Alliance is the best example, but not the only one. The access to components, spells, and bolt holes is very useful.
The problem with this is that giving game mechanic advantage/disadvantage is a constant thing. Social/roleplaying advantages/disadvantages are strongly case-by-case things. E.g. defilers living in the desert or surrounded by terrified servants/lowlings only is not afraid to use their magic openly. So there is no diasdvantage here, but they would receive the benefit. And this is not balanced.
That said, I haven't made them that much more powerful than preservers. Overall, I would say the difference in power is less than 2nd edition Dark Sun preserver/defiler differance. And if you're playing a Dark Sun campaign where the open use of wizardry isn't going to be a problem for players, then your missing out on a important element of the game.
As someone, (on the infrequent occasions when I am playing as oppossed to GMing) who plays a lot of wizards, even in FR the advantages of social networking and spell access is important. Trust me, I spent several sessions rebuilding my Arch-mage's spellbook. Even with help from allies and still having useful spells up (including 9th level ones), there was a signifigant drop in power. In Athas those are powerful advantages.
Originally posted by Enslaved DM
What do you mean it isn't balanced? You haven't even seen what the game mechanic advantages are? A defiler is suppossed to have some measure of magical superiority over a preserver of equal experience or you tear the heart out of the setting.
Explain to me how this applies to the Athas.org version of defilers and preservers. In detail, how a Defiler isn't more powerful than a Preserver, and what you mean by it. What you are stating is already accepted fact, and nobody's contradicting it. So, it's a moot point.
Now, explain to me how there's a balancing factor using your roleplaying examples, to the example that Nagypapi gave. Please, I wish to be enlightened.
Unless my memory fails me, a defiler gets rewarded with awesome STIGMA of a defiling radius and the double headed sword of defiling for more power at the cost of making the spell a full round action and begging to be nailed by anyone who possibly can. That's not much of an advantage. Oh, I almost forgot, he can kill plants real good.
Not worth the cost of stealth, not by a long shot with the concesquences of being caught. And we haven't even mentioned being of the druid's most wanted list.
i just like to add taint and a touch of addiction to defiling. :-)
to me the thing that makes defilers so much more "powerful" than preservers is the speed with witch they cast spells.
so why not simply give them something like +4 or +6 to inititave while casting a defiling spell? so no matter who casts it(preserver or defiler) you get a bonus as long as you defile. :-)
Originally posted by Enslaved DM
The social structure of Dark Sun and the consequences of it are built into the game. The Templar has class abilities that deal specifically with it. The outlawing of wizardry and the social stigma around magic screws wizards just as the lack of metal screw fighters. The idea that role playing situations don't balance doesn't work with Dark Sun, whatever Wizard's might say.
Unless my memory fails me, a defiler gets rewarded with awesome STIGMA of a defiling radius and the double headed sword of defiling for more power at the cost of making the spell a full round action and begging to be nailed by anyone who possibly can. That's not much of an advantage. Oh, I almost forgot, he can kill plants real good.
Not worth the cost of stealth, not by a long shot with the concesquences of being caught. And we haven't even mentioned being of the druid's most wanted list.
You do forget that all their spells are adjusted as if they are 1 level higher than they would be.
And umm.... that "social stigma", doesn't apply in the wastes, or, let's say, if the Defiler is working for an elvish tribe - it's much less of a concern there. It's a rather locale-sensitive problem. In the cities, it's a problem. out of them, it's less of a problem. Funny how that works. For extra power to their spells at the cost of increasing the spell's casting to a full-round-action, that's not too bad of a trade off for.... well.... MANY players, actually (in my experience). Then add in the possiblity of the Arch Defiler prestige class, and wham! Now you'r cooking with Crisco. one little PrC away from a much nastier set of advantages. And it's a PrC that's not hard to achieve (found on Jon's site, needs to be updated to 3.5e, but it's not too hard to get it working).
This feat is what I intend on using in my soon to be dark sun game. There are sort of three kinds of spellcasters in my game. The preservers, the defilers und those that don't know it any better.
It gives the "slower" part to preservers (as they have one less feat) and it would give even more power to those willing to **** nature for their personal gain.
Rekindle the spark of life [general]
Prerequisite: Wizard
Benefit: The Wizard has learned how to efficiently harness the energy contained within the plants and soil to power his spells without turning them into ash. He no longer uses up all the lifeforce stored around him but gives back some of it to rekindle the spark of live. Casting spells this way is generally known as preserving.
While this feat enables the wizard to preserve he is still able to draw it all out just like before he has learned to get along with less. This enables him to gather the energy so efficiently that it grants him a +1 defiler bonus to his caster level by overcharging the spell. But as this once again takes all available energy it leaves behind a circle of lifeless ash.
Normal: Without this feat the wizard has only been tought the crude and easy way of drawing energy from the plants and soil around him. Thus whenever he casts a spell he uses up all lifeforce around him and the area is left devoid of plants for years to come. This is generally known as defiling and thought to be the only way for spellcasters to power their magic spells by most people.
Special: As power never comes without temptation, using the ability to power up a spell through defiling is somewhat addictive. Whenever someone with this feat defiles while casting a spell he is awarded a taint point. These points are called the taint score. From now on the "tainted" wizard has to roll the percentile dice whenever he tries to cast a spell without defiling. If the roll is equal or lower than his taint score he unwillingly draws too much energy from his surroundings and thus defiles. Even while unwillingly defiling he still receives the +1 defiler bonus to his caster level, but he also receives another taint point if his taint score is below 100.
The wizard can only get rid of taint points via atonement spells from a druid. Such a spell removes all taint points from the wizard. If the taint score ever reaches 100 the wizard is forever tainted and only a wish or similar magic can help him get another chance. But even then the taint score is only reduced to 99 and he should consider talking to a druid before casting spells again.
Any opinions ?
So the best thing I can recommend is to address the problem directly. The defiler gets in trouble when he defiles in a city, and even in the wastes if his group doesn't like defilers. So, how would a defiler hide that? There are obviously many ways to do this.
You could use the obsidian orbs mentioned in the Articles section of Athas.org, but those cost XP and money to make. The defiler could cast illusion spells to "hide" his ash circles, but then again, these are temporary at best, and can be disbelieved (if your characters start to recognize this "wasted spellcasting round" that every NPC defiler seems to be doing). Or, you could make a new feat to essentially "move" the defiling radius out of sight. The range that the ash could be something like a spell (ie. 25 ft. plus 5 ft./2 levels) or somesuch thing like that.
The reason this method would probably work best is that its very flexible, while not being extremely powerful either. So loner defilers wouldn't need it and could spend the feat slot on something else, while PC's in cities or good groups would find a lot of use in this feat. The defiler still makes ash, and still uses the same terrain type but could essentially hide their defiler radius "just around the corner". And by keeping the range small, it would encourage the defiler to look for inventive and new places to "stash the ash".
It would also be cool to see this combined with prestige classes from Jon's site, like the Myrmelion or Arch Defiler possibly.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Actually, after much thought, and actual playtesting I have come to the conclusion that the Defiling Radius is not the advantage I have calculated it to be.
Actually the main advantage of defiling under the old rules was not that radius it was that defiling was the easier the faster way and this was rulewise the much lesser XP cost to advance levels. Alas such a thing is no longer possible under 3e (I am quite glad that all classes now use the same xp tree).
Perhaps anything might be included in your defiler version to make defiling again be seen as the easier, faster way of wizardry? (Though not the more powerful, I don't think that it should be way more powerful that preserving).
Anyway I have to admit that atm I am using the Dragon #315 system for defiling in my campaign (making defiling and the power it brings much more tempting for the players but leaving out the tliz idea and making it more difficult to get rid of the accumulated defiler points).
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
So the best thing I can recommend is to address the problem directly. The defiler gets in trouble when he defiles in a city, and even in the wastes if his group doesn't like defilers. So, how would a defiler hide that? There are obviously many ways to do this.
/shameless self marketing on
May I draw your attention to two feats, both of my humble creation named Sculpt Defiling and Focused Defiling? They are in this tread, on page 4 if I remember correctly...
/shameless self marketing off
:D
Originally posted by Enslaved DM
What do you mean it isn't balanced? You haven't even seen what the game mechanic advantages are?
I assure you, I did. However it is a general rule that it's a bad idea to balance game mechanic advantages with social/world specific/role playing disadvantages and vica versa. Quick and dirty example from old Star Wars: we make Jedi characters overpowerful, as the Empire hunts them, and they have to be hiding. And after that Episode I and II come out and a party plays during the Old Republic, where the Jedi are accepted part of the society. Whoa, we have the Jedi there powerful, without any hindrace.
Game mechanic things are constant, as the rule system never changes during a play. Social/world specific/role playing factors are much more prone to change, even during a given game session. So it can quite easily lead to unbalancing situations. 3e and 3.5e is very balance-oriented system, so this risk can't be accepted by rule creation. Rules has to be generaly valid, as a lot of players and DMs play a lot of campaigns and the rules have to serve all of it well.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
/shameless self marketing on
May I draw your attention to two feats, both of my humble creation named Sculpt Defiling and Focused Defiling? They are in this tread, on page 4 if I remember correctly...
/shameless self marketing off
:D
Page 1 actually, but yeah those are similar to what I was thinking. But I don't think using life energy to power defiler spells, as in your Focussed Defiling feat is appropriate for regular PC's. In my eyes, that remains the domain of the sorcerer-kings/dragons. The sculpt defiling feat isn't bad, but it doesn't really address the problem in Jon's original post. The defiler could snake the ash away from him in a line or ring, or whatever, but he's still defiling for everybody to see. Of course this feat could work in conjuction with mine, both moving the ash away, and changing its shape, as the feats do two very different things.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
Page 1 actually, but yeah those are similar to what I was thinking. But I don't think using life energy to power defiler spells, as in your Focussed Defiling feat is appropriate for regular PC's. In my eyes, that remains the domain of the sorcerer-kings/dragons.
It can be the entry ticket to the dragonhood, a required feat to take a prestige class to be a dragon. Or it can be a nasty (but I think stylish) thing for necromancers or necro-oriented defilers.
The sculpt defiling feat isn't bad, but it doesn't really address the problem in Jon's original post. The defiler could snake the ash away from him in a line or ring, or whatever, but he's still defiling for everybody to see. Of course this feat could work in conjuction with mine, both moving the ash away, and changing its shape, as the feats do two very different things.
One of the main problems in defiling is that it's extremely hard to conceal. Sculpt defiling can be a first step to it, with that the defiler has some control over the energy gathering. Focused defiling can be a kind of top of it, where the defiler sucks life in a very targeted way, and not from the general environment. In between it's a nice place for a feat to gather energy from a distance.