Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 10:44:12	This is a post born of ignorance I will admit, so feel free to ignore it, I won't be offended, and I won't "bump" it. I have not read the psionics sourcebook. I am not in a position right now to get a good read (flipping it in the store does not count, can't afford to buy it, and friends don't have it). Psionics can accomplish a lot of things, so can magic. Ok, great. In a setting like Forgetten realms, they are free to match up to each other and stand on their own weight. In dark sun however, where magic has such a social disadvantage, and psionics is casually accepted, does arcane magic still hold weight? Psionics have attack abilities, enchantment like abilities, certainly buff like abilities, and apparently you can even teleport and planar travel with psionics. Does arcane magic have enough to it that it stands on it's own feet as a viable source of power despite the social ramifications? Does it have a reason to be studied when you could just go psionic instead? This is not a call to say magic should be boosted, psionics nerfed, etc... I am just looking for some insight into how much ground psionics covers, and comparing that to arcane magic. This discussion flares up in other forums as it relates to divine magic vs arcane, but I am much mroe familiar with comparing divine to arcane. Granted, I think divine magic gets a bit of a boost in dark sun, but I still think it all washes out in the end, and I am by and large ok with comparing divine and arcane magic. I figure any divine spell that is too "arcane-like" can just be made into an arcane spell through research (for instance blade barrier, or implosion), so I'm not to worried there. I am curious however if psionics gives to much leeway. It probably has nothing like monster summoning, or animate dead (though it may), and maybe indeed it has enough deficiencies to give arcane magic its palce in the sun. Anyways, any comments?
#2 flip Jul 30, 2003 14:45:38	The major thing about psionics that makes it fall when compared to arcane / divine magic is this: Each dicipline is dependant upon a particular ability score. Telepathy is dependant on Charisma, Psychoportaiton is dependant on Dexterity, metacreation is dependant on Intelligence, etc. This is frequently referred to as Multiple Ability Dependancy (MAD) and a lot of people don't like it. Basically, Wizards depend on Intelligence. If they have an 18 intelligence, they can learn up to 18th level spells. But psions are more limited -- if they have an 18 intelligence, and a 13 charisma, then they may learn up to 8th level metacreative powers, but can only learn up to 3rd level telepathic powers. So, while psionics as a whole may seem to cover all of the same ground as arcane magic might, the domains do not stand on their own ... thus making psions highly inclined to specialize. Forcing them to, really. (BTW, yes, there is a monster summoning analoug)
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 15:20:53	Hmm, so with good stats, a psion can cover almost the same power ground as a wizard, all without Athasian stigma? I have to admit to never being a big fan of psionics in a fantasy setting, but they seem inescapable in dark sun (well not really, if I was dm I could just drop them from the game, but most people won't). Wizardry is the at the core of high fantasy, and I get uncomfortable when things tred on it's ground. For arguements sake, is there an arguement that at least in dark sun, psions are potentially more powerful than wizards? I realize this depends on your definition of power, and it relies on above average stats, but it seems like a lot of power can be had, with no social repercussions. I'm really going to have to get a read of the psionics book so I can argue this better. I also realize that Dark Sun will always (officially) have psionics, I just hate seeing wizards lose their place on the stage so to speak
#4 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2003 23:15:22	In any focused system, you have broad power bases and specific power bases. Wizard's pwoer tends to be more in the broad spectrum. They can accomplish more, withstand a larger variety of situations and encounters, etc. Psions on the other hand, require specializing (as flip points out) so they excell within their specialty, but are often times deficient out side of it. If the situation that the psion in fits well with his specialty, he can hold his own as easily as a wizard. If not, he's toast. The comparison aside from mechanics though, supports this. Rajaat would not spend several hundred years developing something that was not greater than an existing power. I doubt that he knew of the 'Champion' aspect or of 'Advanced Metamorphosis' when he started out. If arcane magic was indeed lesser to psionics, he would have stopped his research in an instant. He was insane, not stupid.
#5 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 31, 2003 10:39:47	The psionic powers (in the PsiHB), if I recall, weren't really as expansive as what is available through magic (either arcane or divine). Plus, psionic combat (PsiHB version) doesn't account for characters getting better willpower saving throws very well, and doesn't scale with levels at all. As a result, it's usually usefulness is really only best when characters are between levels 1 - 10, with it rapidly becoming rather ineffective from 11+, as more and more classes' base will saves allow for them to totally ignore psionic combat all together (plus the non-psionic buffer which exists to make sure that it's already pretty pointless against non Psionic characters).
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2003 13:22:53	All right, I had a chance to flip through the book in the store earlier today, and I spent some time getting a good flip. My worries are considerably eased. -It wasn't clear to me, but they are a bit like sorcerers, limited number of powers available, correct? Versatility advantage wizard -I didn't realize there actually were 6 schools, one for EACH stat, so yeah, he may have good stats, but not all 6. So focus will be in 2, maybe 3 schools, with only low level abilities outside, cool! -Fairly small number of powers available. The list is actually prett short. At level 9, there are like 2 powers per school, not much. Again versatility advantage to the wizard. I'm feeling better now. One other question then. The psion in the handbook has the psionic crystal thing, and the bonus combat styles, but the DS3 rules appear to ahve dropped that, am I misinterpreting?
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2003 13:37:04	I really liked the psionic crystals, but its a little drastic to introduce into Athas. You need to figure out where these crystals are comming from. In my last group, we decided that crystals are nearly worthless, unlike in the real world. They have no monotary value and are mined by dwarves in the Tablelands on the western edge of the Mekillot Mountains and from a small region on the Jagged Cliffs near Lost Scale (giving dwarven and pterran merchants first grab at them).
#8 Otakkun Jul 31, 2003 14:37:10	However the posibility of crystal weapons and armors that interacted somehow with the way ... it has many possibilities IMHO. Yo Nyt, maybe a little work on Vilichi and crystal equipment? :P Edo.
#9 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 31, 2003 17:41:36	I have (in my version) crystal be another "alternate material" for Athas, with the requirement for becoming a crystalsmith being some psionic ability (and crafting feats) as well as some bardic knowledge for alchemy, blending the two parts together to produce crystal of the material strength needed for weapons and armors (except for the crystal armor listed in Arms & Equipment, which I have available anyway, but it's still pretty rare). Where do they come from? The minerals to produce crystals aren't marked as a rarity on Athas - in fact, crystals could be as commonplace as metal is on other worlds (various crystal sources in RL are actually found in arid [desert] regions). With crystal spiders, crysmals, and thri-kreen with their dasl (another crystalline substance), there's a few alternative sources for crystal to be found. my $0.02
#10 player1 Jul 31, 2003 18:14:58	It's intersting to note that many essenital items (in CR and EL sense), like Rings of Protection, Bracers or Armor, stat boosting items and similar can only be made by magic and not psionics. So, magic can still hold its water.
#11 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2003 23:13:57	Where do they come from? The minerals to produce crystals aren't marked as a rarity on Athas - in fact, crystals could be as commonplace as metal is on other worlds (various crystal sources in RL are actually found in arid [desert] regions). With crystal spiders, crysmals, and thri-kreen with their dasl (another crystalline substance), there's a few alternative sources for crystal to be found Oooo . . . dsal psicrystals attuned to the Bully personalty. Not only is it overbearing, but constantly insists on being the pack leader
#12 zombiegleemax Aug 01, 2003 10:39:00	Originally posted by player1 It's intersting to note that many essenital items (in CR and EL sense), like Rings of Protection, Bracers or Armor, stat boosting items and similar can only be made by magic and not psionics. So, magic can still hold its water. But as well as you can invent new magic items you can come up with new psionic ones. Especially on Athas where psionics has a much longer tradition than arcane magic. I would say that the special items found on Athas is 60% psionic based, 30% divine magic based and 10% arcane magic based. And a simple Ring of Prot or stat boosting things can be easily done by psionic way. There are psion powers with these effects, like psychokinetic powers to provide the "force field" effect for a ring of prot, Animal Affinity for stat boosting, etc. I would say almost every magic item in the DMG can be done by psionic measures and have a psionic version, except the very special ones like Holy Avenger, or the Apparation of Kvalish.
#13 player1 Aug 01, 2003 11:45:38	Well, that's a good idea for DS supplement. Full of psionic items which mimic similar arcane items.
#14 star_gazer_02 Aug 01, 2003 18:55:10	player1: There's a discussion thread already on the boards for that... it's only a few days old.