The source books for the campaign world, when TSR was publishing DS stuff say that the population sizes for the city states ranged from 8,500 people, to 40,000 people with a mean population of 22,700 and a total city dweller population of 159,000. The books also state the there are roughly 1,000,000 people in the whole tableland area.
This doesn't make any sense to me. This says that only 16% of the population live in the relative safety of the city states. Not only that, but during the time of The Dragon, each city had to produce 1,000 slaves for appeasement. The city state with 8,500 people would be annihiliated in only a decade or so.
This line of thought got me thinking about other problems with this population level. There are many societies, and groups on Athas that are elite groups, or secretive with many members. With the above population numbers, that would mean that most city dwellers are members of some group, and a significant portion of the people in the tablelands have regular contact with powerful forces.
This isn't the end of the problems that pop up in my mind. However, these are key problems that occur for the sake of consistency of Athas. These numbers suddenly make Athas into a crazy game of Paranoia (if you've never played the game, then you might miss that reference). This is something that I'm sure none of us want.
I think that we as a group need to determine what would be an appropriate population size for the city states. Also, what would be the appropriate levy required by Borys. Finally, determine the population make up of Kurn and Eldaarich.
Any thoughts, or opinions?
There are also plenty of references to the client villages, slave tribes, freeholds and other small settlements that surround the big cities. I would guess that a fair whack of the extra population would come from these. In fact, Tithian made up the Dragon's levy for several years from the population of these villages without anyone in the city (apparently) being any the wiser and I seem to recall that Andropinis did something similar one year to cover Tithian's lapse.
I'd agree with you, Quarion, that the figures are a little off. But if we take into account the smaller "sattelite" settlements, we are on the way to getting a more accurate picture of the demographics.
Y'think?
The levy of the Dragon is a serious one, if I remember correctly the SK's had to wage wars and imprison whole villages to get the 1000 people for the Dragon. Of course the SK's don't want to give the Dragon their own citizens, so they collected mostly form outside.
Also if my memory is OK the Dragon tax was not required from every city in every year, just one city was chosen for a given year to provide the tax. When Tyr was freed, and refused to pay the tax the Dragon went away to an other place.
Originally posted by Kamelion
I had always seen the excess as being those who were drawn to the city from across the Tablelands by the various opportunities offered in the final months of the ziggurat's construction - a one-time "seasonal" expansion, if you will.
True, there is definate movement between people inside and outside the city walls that would account for some of the population discrepencies. However, I don't believe that can account for all of the them.
There are also plenty of references to the client villages, slave tribes, freeholds and other small settlements that surround the big cities. I would guess that a fair whack of the extra population would come from these.
Lets look at Tyr for a moment, then. The population of Tyr is stated to be 12,000. Now even if that is 12,000 perminant members internal to Tyr, that would mean that for the size of Tyr's stadium that 3 times the population would need to live outside the city proper.
Our modern cities (on earth now) have suburbs since we have cars, trains, buses, etc. I live in the Boston area, but I don't live in Boston. But I can only do that because I have a car to drive to work.
I just can't believe that a population, the size of Urik's stated population, lives around and not in Tyr. Where would they live, what would they do? Outside of Tyr are (or were) noble estates.
In fact, Tithian made up the Dragon's levy for several years from the population of these villages without anyone in the city (apparently) being any the wiser and I seem to recall that Andropinis did something similar one year to cover Tithian's lapse.
Well that's my point. If there were enough villiages in the 10 mile radius surrounding Tyr to hold villiages that numbered in the thousands of people, then something isn't right. Tyr's internal population would need to be much greater than 12,000 to accomplish this.I'd agree with you, Quarion, that the figures are a little off. But if we take into account the smaller "sattelite" settlements, we are on the way to getting a more accurate picture of the demographics.
Y'think?
I do agree that I did not account much for the "satellite" villiages, but the cities are centers of power due to their populations. A satellite villiage cannot logically be larger than the city that it is a satellite of.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
The levy of the Dragon is a serious one, if I remember correctly the SK's had to wage wars and imprison whole villages to get the 1000 people for the Dragon. Of course the SK's don't want to give the Dragon their own citizens, so they collected mostly form outside.
That is also a good point, if each of the SK's were collecting 1000 beings a year that's 7000 beings being annihiliated outside of the normal ebb and flow of life. The Dragon was in power for at least 500 years (I forget the exact number), and so that would mean in that time 3.5 million beings died. With a population of 1 million, and a brutally short "normal" lifespan this begins to not make sense. Either 1000 is too much, or 1 million is too little.
Also if my memory is OK the Dragon tax was not required from every city in every year, just one city was chosen for a given year to provide the tax. When Tyr was freed, and refused to pay the tax the Dragon went away to an other place.
I'm pretty sure that the Dragon required 1000 from each city each year. Otherwise, why would Balic be so annoyed at having to cover double the levy for the year. I also believe that in the Valley of Dust and Fire it mentions the Dragon leaving the city to gain its levy from all of the city states.
Whilst the Dragon's levy was harsh, it would have wiped out entire villages and tribes, it isn't unsustainable. I suspect that the Athasian population grows rapidly, it just doesn't have a very high carrying capacity.
For instance, the world birth rate is currently around 25 births per 1,000. In a Bronze Age society (which is effectively what Athas is) this could have been higher. Even so you are looking at 12,500 new people every year. The Dragon's levy would have hurt but it would have reduced other factors like competition for resources.
Kalak's arena, on the other hand, looks decidedly optimistic. The Roman Coliseum held about 50,000 people but this was in the capital of an Empire covering Europe, northern Africa and Asia Minor.
Originally posted by Afghan
Nonetheless, a population of around 1 million sounds about right for the Tablelands. At the start of the classical era (a good benchmark for Athas) the world population in the real world was only 50 million. That was worldwide.
I don't have the map in front of me, but the tablelands are about the size of western europe, or the Mediterranean. What was the population of that area during the bronze age?
For instance, the world birth rate is currently around 25 births per 1,000. In a Bronze Age society (which is effectively what Athas is) this could have been higher. Even so you are looking at 12,500 new people every year. The Dragon's levy would have hurt but it would have reduced other factors like competition for resources.
I'm sure the birth rate in ancient societies was larger, but what was the rate of people becoming of a mature age per year? A Bronze Age society wouldn't have as many children making it to adolecense.
Kalak's arena, on the other hand, looks decidedly optimistic. The Roman Coliseum held about 50,000 people but this was in the capital of an Empire covering Europe, northern Africa and Asia Minor.
True, we might have to think a stadium of significantly smaller proportions than 40,000 then.
On the subject of bloodsport, would the city populations be able to use draconian laws, gladitorial combat, and devistating wars without losing the population? I know that the books describe Tectuktitlay as sacrificing hundreds and thousands of captives a month. Granted he's unique in the amount, but with the wars between Nibenay and Gulg, the aggressive nature of Urik starting wars with everybody, and Balic's constant battles with the Giants, I don't know if the populations can handle it.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Think about it - how many slave tribes do you think there are? And have you seen the number of marked villages across the Tablelands?
I don't think that Slave Tribes and small villages are going to account for 80% of the population.
Small villages and Slave Tribes generally have small populations. A large slave tribe would have a couple hundred people, and a large village would have around a thousand (that last number is an estimate).My rationale for not having tons of villages and slave tribes goes into another area of discussion that I want to start later, so I'll try to be brief here. There are only so many resources available to survive on Athas. If there were around 800,000 people in pockets of 100 to 1000 groups then that would mean there would be about 1,500 non-city groups out there.
People live in the cities because it a) provides protection against the nasties, b) provides protection against other hostile groups, c) source of food, and d) is a source of water. Cities' military might can attract more resources than normal, so the cities are more of a resource center than normal. That being true, the majority of resources being held by 16% of the population (not economic resources, just survivable resources) would make it really difficult for 80% of the population to survive on the remenants.
Can the Tablelands support the proposed population? No. It can't. And its only getting worse. This is a thematic element introduced into the original setting. Athas isn't just hanging on to existence by a thin line; the line snapped long ago. One small push in the right direction (Thri-kreen invsion, Dergoth's War, etc) and the entire Tablelands will collapse.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Simply adjust the standard total population of the Tablelands then. At around 250,000 sentients, things get slightly easier to manage.
I have thought about that, I just want to make sure that my reasoning is sound.
It isn't always right, but don't let me hear myself saying that. :D I protest, yes, because I have reasons for thinking something is wrong but I don't want to say that my logic is 100% right. I've already realized that I need a better way to account for the population running around in the wastes, and not a part of a city state.Athas is dying. One small push in the right direction (Thri-kreen invsion, Dergoth's War, etc) and the entire Tablelands will collapse.
I compleately agree. I actually thought of that, and know that is an element that I want to have incorporated in my setting. However, I also know that I want there to be a reason that the population does exist, and has existed for thousands and thousands of years.
Originally posted by Quarion
I don't have the map in front of me, but the tablelands are about the size of western europe, or the Mediterranean. What was the population of that area during the bronze age?
However, the Mediterranean and Europe were probably far more capable of supporting life than the Tablelands. I'll do some research on the figures and see what I can turn up though.
I'm sure the birth rate in ancient societies was larger, but what was the rate of people becoming of a mature age per year? A Bronze Age society wouldn't have as many children making it to adolecense.
This is true but Bronze Age societies didn't have clerics either. These are a big bonus to a society's healthcare. Not that health is that bad amongst unmolested hunter-gatherer tribes. Cities are another matter. Disease tends to be rife in such large centres of population. But these, until recently, had sorcerer-kings to look after them.
reason that the population does exist, and has existed for thousands and thousands of years.
That's just it though. The populations haven't existed in this state for very long. Only 1,500 to 2,000 years. Assuming the current trends exist without any major or noticible changes, the civilized population of the Tablelands has a few hundred years left, at best. Of course, the intervention of radical change could alter all of this, for better or worse.
Originally posted by Afghan
However, the Mediterranean and Europe were probably far more capable of supporting life than the Tablelands. I'll do some research on the figures and see what I can turn up though.
I poked my head around the web a little, and wasn't able to find anything. Although I admit I didn't do an exhaustive search. On a whim I looked at Mayan and Aztec cultures. There were some information on them. They peaked around 100,000 in a warlike society. So I suppose that having less than that you can still grow in a war-like environment.
Perhaps your research might shed light into this, and make it a little more plausible.
This is true but Bronze Age societies didn't have clerics either. These are a big bonus to a society's healthcare. Not that health is that bad amongst unmolested hunter-gatherer tribes. Cities are another matter. Disease tends to be rife in such large centres of population. But these, until recently, had sorcerer-kings to look after them.
I had thought about the influence of magic wielding clerics, but I was unsure how much of an influence that would be on Athas. Most clerics aren't altrustic there.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
That's just it though. The populations haven't existed in this state for very long. Only 1,500 to 2,000 years. Assuming the current trends exist without any major or noticible changes, the civilized population of the Tablelands has a few hundred years left, at best. Of course, the intervention of radical change could alter all of this, for better or worse.
Point granted. And your last statement is what the adventuring is all about :D
Originally posted by Quarion
Perhaps your research might shed light into this, and make it a little more plausible.
Quick internet search turned up a population for Imperial Rome of 500,000 to 1,000,000. That's just one city, although the greatest in the world at that time. Of course, as has been mentioned, the Tablelands are considerably more arid than the Mediterranean. In that light though, 1 million looks reasonable.
Also, if anything, 16% is quite a large urban population, especially given the fecundity of the land. Athas really isn't going to support big population densities. In 1800, for example, 2% of the world population was urban.
I had thought about the influence of magic wielding clerics, but I was unsure how much of an influence that would be on Athas. Most clerics aren't altrustic there.
They don't have to be altruistic. Doctors today aren't altruistic. They provide healthcare becasue they're paid to. Nonetheless, they have a huge impact on death rates and life expectancy. Clerics, I imagine, are going to fulfil a similar function.
Kalak's arena, on the other hand, looks decidedly optimistic. The Roman Coliseum held about 50,000 people but this was in the capital of an Empire covering Europe, northern Africa and Asia Minor.
How many people died before the Heartwood Spear pierced Kalak and Agis eventually killed him? Kalak was draining life energy in a large scale. In theory, the arena could have actually hosted 40.000 people, but the listed population number for Tyr is who remains after Kalak tried to fuel his one-step metamorphosis plan. Just a thought.
But I also alawys found the number of people living in the varies cities to be very low. What I did, was decide that the numbers mentioned in the Veiled Alliance book was the number of citizens. People who were actually counted as being valuable members of the community. It doesn't include slaves, (migrating) elves and such. This solved a lot of problems in my campaigns.
I'm sure it's not what TSR had in mind, but it works much better for me.
How many people died before the Heartwood Spear pierced Kalak and Agis eventually killed him? Kalak was draining life energy in a large scale. In theory, the arena could have actually hosted 40.000 people, but the listed population number for Tyr is who remains after Kalak tried to fuel his one-step metamorphosis plan. Just a thought.
Hadn't thought of that one. If your playing fair, I'd say that Kalak effectively killed one quarter of the population. If your playing a bit rougher, one half. And if you play like me, more tragic, three quarters of the total population. The more of the population he killed off, the easier it is for Tyr to accomidate the 'flood of immagrants' after the news spread of the new Free City of Tyr, since many homes, villas, and shops would now have no residents. This would also kill Tyr's economy as a side effect since thousands of homes would be raided by the remaining masses for sellable goods, but prices would be so low as to be negligable since everyone left would have what they needed through theft, 'gifts' from those that already stole, or somesuch. You'd also have a slight cultural distinction between old citizens now in a slightly elevated status and the 'newcomers' who would have to start at the bottom. Granted, the newly freed slaves who had no homes before could claim the equivalent of squatter's rights to fill the vacant houses.
2) The population and support structure of Athas is slowly dying, and the whole population of the Tablelands was much larger.
3) Because of this, each city state population is currently only a shadow of what they originally were.
4) The populations listed in the Veiled Alliance could be accurate at that time, having much of the current city states being abandoned ruins
Of course I still don't know how to explain these:
1) With 24% (including Eldaarich, Kurn, and the Last Sea) of the population living in cities, where are the other 76% living? They could live in small villiages, nomadic tribes, raiding tribes, and client villiages. But I have these problems-
- The beasts of the wastes' affect on these populations
- Most of the land outside of cities isn't suitable for inhabitation
- What races and groups are we including and not including
2) If the SK of Draj can sacrifice 1,000 people at a time, wage constant wars, and give tribute to the dragon. How does this city and its surrounding populations even exist after over a thousand years of rule?
3) Actually #2 can be extended to other city states
So I'm going to see if I can figure out numbers that would make sense here and report what I find back to you. Let me know if anyone has any insights on these questions, though.
Originally posted by Quarion
1) With 24% (including Eldaarich, Kurn, and the Last Sea) of the population living in cities, where are the other 76% living? They could live in small villiages, nomadic tribes, raiding tribes, and client villiages. But I have these problems-
- The beasts of the wastes' affect on these populations
- Most of the land outside of cities isn't suitable for inhabitation
- What races and groups are we including and not including
I think the real question is how can the Tablelands support the urban population that they do. Agriculture is labour intensive. Most pre-industrial societies had at least 50 farmers for every urbanite. The Tablelands have three or four.
2) If the SK of Draj can sacrifice 1,000 people at a time, wage constant wars, and give tribute to the dragon. How does this city and its surrounding populations even exist after over a thousand years of rule?
I can actually think of a good explanation for this one. For a start, those 'wars' were really more like raids on surrounding tribes. And meso-American (the culture on which Draj is based) wars were more about taking sacrificial captives than mass butchery anyway. So they met the Dragon's levy by virtue of those wars.
The mass sacrifices probably never happened. They were a cultural neccessity but I am sure King Tec found it far more practical to sacrifice illusory captives than real ones. The appearance of a great and powerful king was maintained by deception... as always.
Afghan asked: "I think the real question is how can the Tablelands support the urban population that they do. Agriculture is labour intensive. Most pre-industrial societies had at least 50 farmers for every urbanite. The Tablelands have three or four."
I think the use of magic, psionic, mul and half-giant slaves can put a significant bonus to that.
Originally posted by Afghan
Quick internet search turned up a population for Imperial Rome of 500,000 to 1,000,000.
It's intersting to note that second 1,000,000 city was 19th century London.
Water clerics can provide drinking water and irrigation of crops
Earth clerics and druids can also contribute to crop health and abundance
Clerics in general can maintain health, fight off disease (a big one in historical earth), and even raise the dead
Any number of people may have psionics which can will contribute to personal health, defense against opponents and the elements, prescience about where to go to settle, and hunting advantages for game
Sorcerer kings may help boost the gardens that supply food to the city (they are smart enough to know that they can only rule if the population is capable of being alive)
These may not cover all logistical problems of how humanity could survive under the conditions it has, but it will go a ways to contributing to it.
Originally posted by Afghan
I think the real question is how can the Tablelands support the urban population that they do. Agriculture is labour intensive. Most pre-industrial societies had at least 50 farmers for every urbanite. The Tablelands have three or four.
Well I do know that's part of the reason that Athas relies so heavily upon slave labor. They specificially don't take as many resources, and are worked throughly. Templars I suppose could help with part of the problem, though. You are correct, though there might have to be something else present to account for this.
The mass sacrifices probably never happened. They were a cultural neccessity but I am sure King Tec found it far more practical to sacrifice illusory captives than real ones. The appearance of a great and powerful king was maintained by deception... as always.
Good point. Sacrifice some caputured slaves. Sacrifice political dissidents. Then concoct grand illusions for the rest.
Originally posted by Xeros
Keep in mind that as a fantasy setting, survival in the wilderness like Athas has is made easier due to some factors.
True, but as you know Athas is not like other fantasy settings.
Water clerics can provide drinking water and irrigation of crops
Earth clerics and druids can also contribute to crop health and abundance
If a SK or its templorite would allow them. Most SK's wouldn't appriciate clerics mucking around with their cities' food supplies. They certainly wouldn't want druids telling him (her) how to use their land.
It is true, that they could help, but I'm not certain that they would help as much as in a "normal" fantasy setting.
Clerics in general can maintain health, fight off disease (a big one in historical earth), and even raise the dead
Well, mostly true. Clerics on Athas (if you go with 2nd edition mechanics) don't raise dead. :D
Sorcerer kings may help boost the gardens that supply food to the city (they are smart enough to know that they can only rule if the population is capable of being alive)
SK's can't really do anything for their gardens or crops directly. Their direct intervention makes their field problems worse.
However, I do agree that SK's don't care about small portions of their city's populations, but they do care if its whole population is threatened. Keeping enough food and water for its citizens is definately a priority. That's why most cities have a templar organization directly associated with water, and with food.
In short, the rigours of a real world setting are mitigated somewhat by the help the supernatural can afford you.
Originally posted by Xeros
I was referring to clerics for outlying villages not ruled by SKs. In general water management and crop growth and hunting for rural populations will be helped by these factors.
In short, the rigours of a real world setting are mitigated somewhat by the help the supernatural can afford you.
True, true, I wasn't thinking about the non-city villiages.
What percentage of the non-city population would be clerics / druids? What percentage of villiages would have a cleric / druid that could assist them with their crops?
Returning to the original question I also think that the popluation numbers are way off. Making up believable numbers are somewhat difficult depending on how "believable" you want them to be. Because you need to assess stuff like family patterns, food supplies, the impact of magic/psionics etc.
Concerning food supplies: these are - in my opinion - not really accounted for. Somehow you just get enough food and water, however unbelieable it seems. In medieval Europe you sometimes had huge problems supplying enough food, even with farmland and conditions which must be vastly superior to the ones on Athas. In addition, I get the impression (from the boexed sets) that life on Athas are much more city-concentrated than in the "real world" (big city states with vast amounts of wasteland in between).
Previosly in this thread people have brought up the issue of arcane magice/divine magic/psionics. I havn't really read about any roleplaying world which succesfully accounts for the impact of these forces on everyday life (except perhaps where magic is extremely rare).
So in short, while I think it is somwhat impossible to make a _very_ believable account, I still agree with the original poster in that the "official" numbers must be way of. Just think (as has been mentioned) on all the secret societies, fractions etc.
Hmm, this post isn't really helpful in any way
I'll try to think about some useful input If that is the case, of course he would try to make the arena extremely large compared to the population of the city
That would depend on when the arena was built compared to when Kalak first learned of the 'shortcut' to being a 10th stage dragon. I'd imagine that Kalak began building the Zigguraut as soon as possible after learning the secret ritual, which was 10 years or so before the start of the campaign timeline. The arena is probably hundreds of years (if not 2,000 or more) older than that though. Slight flaw in your thinking.
I plugged the verdant belt around Tyr at the site
http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/
This is a medieval demographics generator (the middle ages and the Bronze age were about at the same level of technology). The most Tyr could support was about 9000 people (best farming lands). Tyr has to trade with other city-states for food. I also plugged the Tyr Region into the site and got a population of 2 million (meaning that there is on averge 10 people per square KM). I think it would be far less.
Normally in Sumerian city-states, each city was supported by a vast number of villages and a few towns. Think of the city-states in the Tyr Region as a collection of villages that have all come together in a defensive way. The average radius in the Tyr verdant belt is about 4 miles. The average slave could live in the city and walk to the fields (most fields will be about 2-3 miles from the city). The rest will be grazing land. There may be a couple of farming villages (not alot though) every 3-5 KMs around the city (at least 7 villages). These villages will probably count for the total number of people in Tyr. Each village will have a water tower or a well and probably have a population of 100-500. They may or may not be walled.
The way villages work, is every place there can be one, there will be. Every green space on the map will have severavl villages 3-5 KM apart while the scrub plains will have fewer villages 7-10 KM apart. Every known oasis should have a village or someone living there. The Ringing Mountains should have thousands of herders practicing transhumance. Moisture from the Forest Ridge should collect and condense, feeding local plants that can be eaten by herd animals.
From reading the Wanderer's Journal, I get the feeling that only a small number of villages were placed on the map. I get the feeling that the authors indeed there to be much more and it was suppose to be a general guide and not exact.
By counting the number of other verdant belts that does not have a city-state on them, there are 7 other places that could support thousand of people. I would estimate that there are 2-4 times as many people in the Tyr Region than the urban dwellers (remember siege mentallity, people are going to flock to the city states for protection, so the standard 10% urban does not apply here). City-States have to trade or raid these people for food though. In the Forest Ridge, there are probably 100,000 (est.)halfings. Each hex, for those of you with the original map, equals 5 miles, about the size needed to support 100-500 villagers each.
I know clerics can heal and create water, but how else could to use magic to survive? (I do not know the whole list of spells).
The underdark perplexes me. Most systems of caves have very little life in them and they are close to being an underground desert. What do these people and monsters that live underground eat (besides 1st level adventurers)?
Humans usually ban together to hunt down and kill other predators that could prey on humans (monsters). Eventually, if a monster was in a lush verdant belt, humans would kill it and take its territory. Given that this occured alot over the thousands of years humans have been living in the desert of the Tyr region, monsters should be going extinct (do they reproduce or are they being recreated at any rate and what is their life expectancy?).
The underdark perplexes me. Most systems of caves have very little life in them and they are close to being an underground desert. What do these people and monsters that live underground eat (besides 1st level adventurers)?
To make any ecology sustainable, you need to develope a realistic food chain. For the underdark, the inclusion of hundreds of various fungus, mushrooms, and other forms of vegetation that require no sunlight acts as the base, feeding off other dead vegetation as well as minerals from the underdark floor. Small animals eat the plants and are prey to larger animals. Many of the most massive monsters are normaly said to have feeding cycles where they eat prodigeously for a time then hibernate (thankfully so or massive monsters would have long since wiped out the animals that it normally feeds on).
On Athas, there actually is a somewhat realistic food chain. Those who have never been to a true desert environment can attest that there is actually a tremendous variety of life in a real world desert, even those that lack water in substantial quantities. Granted, most of this is small life, but it is of a more hardy variety and sustains itself quite well. In fact, there is no known region on Earth that is considered 'lifeless' from the iceworms in the arctic to microbological organism that survive in molten lava to chemosynthetic life that developed in a cave complex that was completely sealed off from the surface for who knows how long. If life can exist on the most harsh regions of Earth, why wouldn't Athas be any different? Its simply harsher on a more grand scale than the typical Earth desert.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
The Athasian Ecology project by Gerald Arthur Lewis and Teos Abadia goes into detail on this. I must admit I have yet to read it in detail (like I'll ever have time to do that). Do a search on "Athasian Ecology" on Google if you're interested.
I have read it, and it is very good. It describes how a creature like the cloud ray can live and survive on Athas.
I suppose where this discussion has lead me is the following:
1) the population of the tablelands was at one time much larger than it is now
2) each city state was at one time much larger than it is now as well
3) there are many small settlements dotted around the landscape to take advantage of any resource that is available
4) Even with this the population might not surivive, so slavery, magic, and psionics fill this void.
5) Some city states cannot provide enough food for its citizens, so they trade (i.e. Tyrian iron for Drajian grain)
6) The population of the tablelands does not include (for obvious reasons) the jagged cliffs and the crimson savanna
Anything that I missed?
For a start, whilst desert can support quite a diversity of life, it cannot support a large density of life. Unless you live in verdant area, like around the cities, you are not really going to be able to work the land. There aren't in other words, going to be many settled tribes.
This suggests that the 'average Athasian' is even more primitive, sociologically speaking, than a subsistence farming level. They are going to have to be nomadic hunter-gatherers. The lack agrarianism really cuts down on other possibilities as well. Traders and bandits, except where the cities are concerned, won't have a lot of opportunities.
Originally posted by Afghan
They are going to have to be nomadic hunter-gatherers. The lack agrarianism really cuts down on other possibilities as well. Traders and bandits, except where the cities are concerned, won't have a lot of opportunities.
That was also stated in the wanderer's journal, that there are quite a few nomadic tribes.
I'm still concerned that maybe the population is too small to support the amount of strain on it. But I also know that (as I've reluctantly come to understand) the population is dying off at the start of the first book in the prisim pentad.