The shield and armor proficiencies are now part of the domains. Domains are a package of spells, class skills, and shield and armor proficiencies in DS3. Those domains giving full armor benefits usually have less powerful spells than those that give less armor proficiencies.
Of course that would mean that the number of undeads should be re-thought. I often had the feeling the Athas has more undead then Ravenloft... Personaly I liked the basic setup more: skeletons and zombies only, and _rarely_ some special undead. But now special undeads infest every corner of Athas. We fell on the other side of the horse...
Originally posted by Kamelion
We have been playtesting the approach that elemental clerics do not spontaneously cast healing spells, but select one of their domains as a "spontaneous domain". (Never liked the 3e cleric as it stands - far too generalised...)
I LIKE IT!!!! Have a cleric able to spontaneously cast their domain spells rather than healing spells. That's an EXCELLENT idea. The clerics would have strong individualized flavour, that distinguishes it strongly from the other clerics.
It makes sense to me. d&d clerics are stereotypical healers because healing is a stereotypical divine act. However DS clerics serve no deity, and are agents of elemental power. I don't think spontaneous healing is necesary for the DS cleric flavour, but spontaneous domain casting? Cooooool!
I hope Jon likes this idea. This and the ranger preferred terrain are honestly great ideas for core d&d as well.
I also think that removing spontaneous healing (although it is appealing fro flavour reasons) would markedly weaken the cleric class. They are the party healers after all.
I am in full favour of anything that distinguishes clerics frmo each other. I have never liked the cookie cutter feel of the class. The DS domains are particularly flavourful, moreso than core domains, so that helps, but it's still a bit cookie cutter. This would just help individualise them a bit more.
Originally posted by Kamelion
We have been playtesting the approach that elemental clerics do not spontaneously cast healing spells, but select one of their domains as a "spontaneous domain". (Never liked the 3e cleric as it stands - far too generalised...)
We considered this a long time ago (Like, within two months of 3e coming out).
It's an extrodinarily bad idea, and completely ignores the reasoning that got clerics spontaneous casting in the first place.
Basically, in 2e, clerics ended up memorizing a whole boatload of healing spells, to the exclusion of almost everything else. Clerics had no flavor, and no variety, becuase they had to be prepared for the need to keep the party alive. They were nothing more than mobil hospitals.
With the advent of spontaneous casting, they're actually allowed to memorize a variety of spells, which means that there was actually some variety between clerics. But they were still useful to the party.
Replacing the healing spells with elemental spells might seem like a good idea, but in practice, it means that clerics are going to memorize fewer unusual spells. Healing spells are, by far and away, the most commonly cast clerical spells. By forcing them to specifically memorize healing spells, you're reducing their versitility and usefulness dramatically.
I suppose it would be to much to let them do both as spontaneous. I would seriously try and make that notion work, I am to enchanted with the idea of spontaneous domain spells now. Clerics have for a long time felt cookie cutter to me, and this would do SO much to improve that scenario.
It's probably to major to add to DS3 at this stage, but I would be tempted to say we should worsen the BAB, and/or go with d6 hit points in order to add this feature in. I think spontaneous domain casting is so perfect for the concept of the cleric class that it should be added in *addition* to spontaneous cure spells. It's just a matter of compensating so we don't give the clerics to much. It'd be a major change to the core concept if the BAB or hp start changing, but I think it'd be worth it.
Originally posted by flip
We considered this a long time ago (Like, within two months of 3e coming out).
It's an extrodinarily bad idea, and completely ignores the reasoning that got clerics spontaneous casting in the first place.
These are all fair points and quite correct from the official point of view. This house rule alters the basic nature of the cleric quite drastically, as you point out. Within our games, however, we really don't go for the idea that clerics are automatically "the party healers", or automatically anything other than servants of their god/element/whatever. Their role and nature is defined by their religion, not by the existence of healing spells in the cleric spell lists. It does make for a tougher game but it makes for a flavourful cleric class and less stereotyped party composition. It's a game-world decision over a game-rules one. But this is probably a topic for another thread - and not one on the DS boards, either ;)
I wouldn't think that this would make a good addition to the official rules (for all of the sensible points outlined above). It was just an example of a house rule that I wanted to share in context of the discussion
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I had never really thought of this before and very much like the idea. Chosing say 3 or so different spells from each domain that the cleric can cast spontaneously (I would opt against damage dealing spells) sounds like a really good way to individualize the clerics. It may unfortunately require some re working of the domains to preserve balance, but I would hope it doesn't break things too much.
Hmm, I would say that damage dealing spells can be OK, too, especially at the fire clerics.
Originally posted by guyser
But clerics get a bonus Domain spell at each spell level...is not spontaneous casting of domain spells a little redundant?
That can be the compansation for clerics for the loss of spontaneous healing: the domain spell slots become normal spell slots. They can memorize any spell there, healing spells as well.
Do DS clerics get 2 domain like core clerics do? I think I was thinking all along they got just 1.
I wonder if getting just 1 domain is sufficient counterpoint to allowing spontaneous casting from it.
Ah well, it sounds by Jon's succint reply that this will be eternally in the house rules category, which is ok. I'd love to see it in the official rules, but I ain't the one writing them, and there are probably bigger fish to fry.
Originally posted by Xeros
I just occurred to me.
Do DS clerics get 2 domain like core clerics do? I think I was thinking all along they got just 1.
I wonder if getting just 1 domain is sufficient counterpoint to allowing spontaneous casting from it.
Ah well, it sounds by Jon's succint reply that this will be eternally in the house rules category, which is ok. I'd love to see it in the official rules, but I ain't the one writing them, and there are probably bigger fish to fry.
Yes, by the current rules in the pdf file they get two domains. Only the domains and the granted power of the domains are new, not to mention that most of the domains make certain skills class skills, and/or give proficiencies to certain weapons and/or armor.