Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 03, 2003 19:46:03	I have posted some 3.5 versions of the Scro and Osakar at my site. Always looking for feedback 3.5 Monster Manual versions of:Osakar and Scro. Savage Species Monster Classes for: Osakar and Scro . I would cut and paste them directly here but figure that would be too much text for one post.
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 18, 2003 22:23:57	I enjoyed reading these! I liked the Skro particularly, and have been meaning to use them in my campaign for sometime now...are you going to revamp the prestige class to? (does it even need it?) I'm thinking that my players will encounter some orcs who've been conducting well thought strategic missions, only to have clues left behind that it's really the Skro who've been pulling the strings (too what end i've not narrowed down yet). Might write it up as an adventure if it goes well. I was surprised to find your site still existed! I had done some art for your site almost 2 years ago, and just as I was on the verge of sending it to you, your site went down (right around new years of 2002) I assumed that with the polyhedron attempt at spelljammercoming out, that you'd bowed out. I'm happy to see that isn't the case! Still need art?
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 19, 2003 0:16:48	I was surprised to find your site still existed! I had done some art for your site almost 2 years ago, and just as I was on the verge of sending it to you, your site went down (right around new years of 2002) I assumed that with the polyhedron attempt at spelljammercoming out, that you'd bowed out. I'm happy to see that isn't the case! Naw I not bowed out, it more like I had soooo much on my site and none of the stuff had any 'legal' text at the bottom of the each conversion. I was overwhelmed by the three months it took me to get the site back up and running. Sorry about it being down but I was not really sure if I was going to put it back up. Still need art? Yeah can use all the help I can get. What to present new stuff to others and art is something everybody likes to see more of.
#4 zombiegleemax Oct 05, 2003 22:22:19	Mark, Today I used this Skro in my game and as I was using him it seemed to occur to me that he was VERY beefy compared to most things with the same CR. Is CR 1 really what you intended? I decided as an ad-hoc decision on my part, to bump the CR up a notch as he was a tough customer with quite a lot of abilites!!! Has there been more feed-back from other players and how much more would you like from me? I have no idea if you've updated this stat block since you first posted this as that was when I printed it out. thanks, jp
#5 wyvern76 Oct 06, 2003 2:26:59	Originally posted by neverness Today I used this Skro in my game and as I was using him it seemed to occur to me that he was VERY beefy compared to most things with the same CR. I hadn't looked closely at this version of the scro before today, but since you brought up the question I decided to check it out and see what I thought. My conclusion is that these scro are *definitely* better than CR 1. Just compare them to lizardfolk: - Lizardfolk have a net stat bonus of +2 Str; scro have a net stat bonus of +6 Str. - Lizardfolk have 2 racial HD; scro have 3 racial HD. - Lizardfolk have +5 natural armor; scro have +1 natural armor. - Lizardfolk have two claw attacks and a bite attack for 1d4 each; scro have a 1d3 bite attack. - Lizardfolk are proficient with simple weapons and shields; scro are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor and shields. - Lizardfolk can hold their breath a long time; scro have Darkvision 60' and SR 8 (the latter is not included under "Scro as Characters" for some reason). As you can see, scro are better than lizardfolk in almost every way. The huge bonus to Strength and the Spell Resistance are especially potent abilities. IMO they should be CR 2 and have a level adjustment of +2 (for a total ECL of +5). I'd also drop the Intelligence bonus - they're definitely more intelligent than regular orcs, but I don't see why they should be more intelligent than humans (or any other standard PC race, for that matter). Wyvern
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 06, 2003 3:38:08	Yeah after closer test playing they are +2 ecl I did look at the Monsterous Compendiums and scro have a rating of 13-14 int for an average Scro, I could have listed them as +4 Int bonus, but opted for only +2. As for magic resistance ... well it so weak as to be nearly worthless as only its Scro Monster Class is figured for its SR and at high levels this will have little for no effect and nearly worthless except against greebies. A Scro with 5 monster class in Scro has SR 9, a 5th level wizard can get pass this with a roll of a 4 or better on D20. As scro gains 4th level fighter he still has SR 9 and the 9th level wizard not even check to see if spell gets pass SR, it does. I have decided to update the Scro both as critters and Savage Species write up. Does this now meet with approval? Keep in mind I make mistakes from time to time and very much appreciate corrections to critters, prestige class and what ever else is on my site. I would also point to the Ogre then should be higher ecl as it gains +10 str and +5 natural armor, and they are currently listed as a mere +2 ecl, it was the Ogre that I compared them to when creating the Scro, when compared to an ogre they have 1 less HD 4 natural armor less 4 Str less Not have reach Figured these bonuses where nearly +2 ecl alone. With 6 level of progression for ogre and subtracting the above (figured at about 2 ecl), is why I had Scro listed at 4 level monster progression.
#7 wyvern76 Oct 07, 2003 2:53:10	Originally posted by Danastes As for magic resistance ... well it so weak as to be nearly worthless as only its Scro Monster Class is figured for its SR and at high levels this will have little for no effect and nearly worthless except against greebies. A Scro with 5 monster class in Scro has SR 9, a 5th level wizard can get pass this with a roll of a 4 or better on D20. As scro gains 4th level fighter he still has SR 9 and the 9th level wizard not even check to see if spell gets pass SR, it does. When determining CR and ECL you should consider the basic scro without class levels added. A CR of 2 means that a scro is considered an appropriate challenge for a 2nd-level party.* At that level, the party wizard has to roll a 7 or better to beat SR 9. That means that 30% of his spells aren't even going to get past the scro's SR. How many other CR 2 creatures can you name that have spell resistance? *(This is a problem with counting total "monster levels" to determine CR; it gives radically different values than the Monster Manual. I don't have a copy of Savage Species to verify this, but I would guess that monster levels aren't intended to add to CR the way that PC class levels do.) In any case, your stat block still says that the scro has SR 8, whereas the description of scro as characters says that they have spell resistance equal to 6 + racial hit dice, which gives a total of 9. If the latter is correct, the stat block needs updating. I would also point to the Ogre then should be higher ecl as it gains +10 str and +5 natural armor, and they are currently listed as a mere +2 ecl, it was the Ogre that I compared them to when creating the Scro, when compared to an ogre they have 1 less HD 4 natural armor less 4 Str less Not have reach You have a fair point; however, Strength is not the only stat that matters. The other stat bonuses and penalties possessed by scro cancel each other out, and I focused on Strength because the designers consider it to make a bigger difference than other stats. (Actually, the same is true of Dex, which scro also get a bonus to.) When you take into account the massive stat penalties that ogres have, the net bonus - if you count all stats as being equal - is only +4. Even if you count Str and Dex as being worth double, when you crunch the numbers the net bonus is only a +6 to Strength, the same as a scro. The only advantages they have over scro are a higher natural armor bonus and a longer reach - possibly worth +1 LA, but nowhere near +2. (Racial hit dice are important when determining CR, but don't factor into level adjustment.) Wyvern
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 07, 2003 10:55:47	Savage Species does state that Reach is by it self a +1 ECL, without any other consideration. Large size also insures BIGGER weapons so that a scro with medium sized longsword (1d8 damage) facing an Ogre with a Large Longsword (2d6 damage), also favors the Ogre. +3 Natural armor is a very powerful advantage in my campaign as most combats is usually againt full AC and not touch attacks. This +3 natural armor is clearly worth +1 ECL as well. The Ogre is clearly more powerful then the Scro. And some play testing has put the Ogre is definately more powerful then one Scro and in some cases the ogre equal to any two Scro. That +10 Str is wicked and the scro 16 strength barely makes up for the +4 extra natural armor that an ogre has. After all how many people would play an Ogre sorcerer? Races with that much strength almost always are chosen to play 'brutes' and as such place alot on Strength. Unless a race is wizardly, high INT is just a way to treak a few extra skill points and nothing more. The Ogre should be +3 ECL
#9 zombiegleemax Oct 07, 2003 19:27:39	Hmmm...this discussion seems to be a tad heated, and that was not my intent at all, just trying to give the scro a fair shake as well as help you out with some criticism if requested. I haven't played with the ECl Savage Species stuff you've done, so I have no comments for that as of yet, just the basic monster block. Just the 2 feats and 3 hit dice alone made the encounter with 4 1st level characters almost a total party kill...I had to tweek almost all my rolls, and it took a critical hit for the group to bring him down. The spell restistance was not a factor in the encounter at all. As he was, he just wasn't a fair fight for the 1st level group considering the XP return. That was why I felt obligated to point this out to you in case nobody else ever has. I gave him to my party as a CR2 reward, but I'm wondering if CR3 might have been more appropriate. I think you've done great work, and I hope nothing said here by myself or anyone else hampers your creativity or discourages you from trying again. We all make mistakes. It takes a strong will to realize it and to accept it when others point it out (trust me, as an artist, having the flaws in my work pointed out is always a test of my wits. I bite my lip, clear my head, step back and try to see it myself). I look forward to seeing the end results of these discussions as I will continue to be using your work in my campaign!!! Thanks! Jp
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 07, 2003 23:00:48	I think you've done great work, and I hope nothing said here by myself or anyone else hampers your creativity or discourages you from trying again. We all make mistakes. It takes a strong will to realize it and to accept it when others point it out (trust me, as an artist, having the flaws in my work pointed out is always a test of my wits. I bite my lip, clear my head, step back and try to see it myself). I look forward to seeing the end results of these discussions as I will continue to be using your work in my campaign!!! Thanks jp I doubt it will hamper my creativity, cause if that was the case my own players would have caused me many years ago to quite the game. LOL I ran once a single Scro against 1st level party and while they did defeat it, it was not TPK. Cause half the party (of 4) did not wake up for a bit of time (until healed to 1 hit point, I use the rule that not dead till -9) I decide they where indeed CR 2. I just never got around to updating it to my site. In a battle of 4 scro (Cr 6) againt 6th level characters, the party not fazed much by the scro and won easily. The party still took some damage from the encounter and did use up about 25% of thier resources. About right for a party of 4 Scro measured at CR 6 (base scro at CR2). I hold no anger, I just figure the Ogre not balanced at 4HD and +2 ECL. The mistake I made was comparing the Scro to Ogre (and that WotC indeed figured the Ogre to correct ECL, shame on me for making such an assumption... I been playing D&D long enough to know that both TSR/WotC makes mistakes in game balance... should we all forget that Elves in 1st edition not able to be rangers... LOL). I should have compared them to the Bugbear. The bugbear has the advantage of +3 natural armor comparied the scro +1 natural armor and scro have advantage of +2 Str and +2 Con more, which I have found is equal to about +1 ECL. As to admiting wrong, just play a game of chess in a Chess Tournament... "check mate", is a mean way to learn you are wrong and have to take it in grace (LOL which is to say I not take it with grace the first time I was check mated). More then once I have posted material and even stated that I like feedback and do to the fact I do make mistakes. It helps that I am 41 years of age (made many mistakes) to admit to have made mistakes. Now mind you I still want mistakes bought to my attention, but I will even if I know it a mistake tend to be a bit devilish and will counter point any way.... Hmmm something about my 'character' I should work on, eh? By the way JP where is that spelljamming artwork you keep teasing me that you will send to me?
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 07, 2003 23:36:39	Originally posted by Danastes Thanks jp No prob! Originally posted by Danastes I doubt it will hamper my creativity, cause if that was the case my own players would have caused me many years ago to quite the game. LOL No kidding! Another interesting side effect of the scro encounter, is that the 1st level party realised that I was holding back on treasure, and that the wealth was to be found in goods. The scro has VERY expensive basic equipment for such a low CR... i figure the Master work mighty composite shortbow (+2 str) to be valued at 525gp, mw studded leather at 175gp and the mw spear to be 302gp..these three items alone bring the treasure per ecounter value up to and over the CR3 Treasure value per encounter limit. This seems nit-picky, granted, my players probably will end up using this before they cash it in anyway so I don't feel any real danger to my game's balance (i'm just glad he had no treasure on him and that I didn't adorn him with gems as per the fluff!) Originally posted by Danastes By the way JP where is that spelljamming artwork you keep teasing me that you will send to me? Forthcoming! I myself haven't had the time to work on anything, but the other guy has been jamming on Spelljammer critters, so you'll be seeing stuff in the near future from me (not necessarily by me though).
#12 iplaydnd35 Oct 26, 2003 18:09:31	I simply fell in love with the scro when they first appeared in goblins return i think. Mean and nasty orcs. Threw my players back then for a big loop and i got many raised eyebrows when the party would have to hit one scro three or four times to wipe it out. I used to beef up a few monsters here and there with more HP and/or magical weapons but this was a new twist for the party to contend with. The new scro are even better than the originals and i cant wait to use them on a over confident group of hero's.