I have complained a little on this board about the DS magic system. I know that I have been told to add my suggestion to the group, and so here it is.
Keep in mind, this is not to be an official magic system, but my own magic system. If anyone has any comments or questions, please feel free to provide them. Constructive criticism is greatly appriciated.
The following spell system is attempting to accomplish the following goals:
1) Make wizards more powerful than any other class.
2) Make defilers more powerful than preservers.
3) Not make wizards (preservers or defilers) game-breakers.
4) Easily integrate magic with psionics.
5) Allow for grey wizards, dark wizards, cerulean wizards, and sun wizards
Except where otherwise noted below, Wizards and magic work just as described in the PHb, and DS3.
Magic Spell Cost - Spells cost the same amount of spell points as powers cost in power points (see psionics handbook). For example a 1st level power costs 1 pp, a 1st level spell costs 1 sp. The only exception is 0 level cantrips are now always free, so long as the energy gathering is successful (i.e. gather energy skill is greater than or equal to 0).
Wizards have the same saving throws, hit points, attack bonuses, and skills as described in DS3 and the PHb. At first level, wizards have access to the Empower, Enlarge, Extend, Heighten, and Maximize feats (see below).
Originally posted by Nagypapi
One comment: the changes of psionic from 2e to 3e included the removal of power checks. From that perspective the roll to cast spells (the Gather Energy skill) is not acceptable.
Well I do know that 3rd edition does not use power checks. I'm thinking that maybe they should, though. The one (and only thing) that I really liked about 2nd edition psionics from the handbook was that psionics were more of a personal skill than magic.
The mechanics described below, use gather plant energy to gather the correct number of spell points. To use psionics one would need to have the gather nexus energy skill (and a DC that would be lower). To use shadow magic, one would use gather gark energy. To use necromantic magic, one would use gather grey energy.
I guess I should pose the question, are these rules too restrictive, too powerful, or just plain not useable?
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
I know you labeled this for me - but I think I'll pass and let someone else take a bite of this.
Well it was labeled for you since when last we "spoke" you said that you wanted to see my variation.
It is too bad that you won't be commenting, the more feedback the better this idea can become.I don't think I've ever promised to comment on magic system proposals. That would steal too much attention from my work at athas.org.
Edit: Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
When did I do that?
I don't think I've ever promised to comment on magic system proposals. That would steal too much attention from my work at athas.org.
Edit: Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
Sorry for the misunderstanding of the misunderstanding.
About a week ago you joked with me about putting up a better system for Athasian magic. So I put my take on a new system up. You didn't promise anything, don't worry. Originally posted by bromleylaerchenheim
Well Quarion. I must say that I like your ideas. I will discuss them with my group and let you know the feedback. I strongly favor the idea of defiling being stronger than preserving. And with the openess of your system, the temptation for a Preserver to defile while in distress is high and real.
I appriciate the kind words. I made this system trying to solve a lot of problems at once, so I hope that this sytem helps many others out.
I guess I didn't expect the problems to be with the spell point system.
I guess if anyone here thinks that the amount of points given per level, the DC of gathering energy, or the amount of time to recover spell points isn't right let me know. Also, if the whole system itself just isn't playable for you, let me know as well. I hope that this system can be refined to be useable for more people.
Originally posted by Xeros
Well I like it. I didn't compare all details for balance, but the theory is good. I have always been in favour of a spelll point system for arcane casting, and even played with many times in 2e d&d.... The basis of your system is a great one as far as I am concerened.
Thank you as well for the kind words.
It is a little more mechanic heavy than normal, but that's not something that would hamper me as I have a good head for rule mechanics, and can use them without slowing down much.
Let me know if there is something that can be done to speed up the system, and if the numbers are off. Also, if there is something in there that's a game-breaker, let me know.
Should the empower/maximize/etc... points be a fixed cost. Does it cost as much to maximize a magic missile as it does a meteor storm? Perhaps a percentage, although that would involve more math I admit.
I think (personal opinion) spell points should return with just rest. I still think there should be a limit to how many spells a wizard can store in memory, just that you don't burn the spell to cast it. The spellbook is used to switch out spells, and sleep is used to recover points. This would help mitigate a little the severity of losing your book, or being forced to keep it in hiding.
Originally posted by Xeros
Ok, comments then
Excellent!
Should the empower/maximize/etc... points be a fixed cost. Does it cost as much to maximize a magic missile as it does a meteor storm? Perhaps a percentage, although that would involve more math I admit.
Yes! :D I had thought about the problem that maximizing the effect of a magic missile is much less than maximizing the effect of a meteor storm. I settled upon the +8 for spell maximization after realizing that to do any different might become too complicated. I actually just went by the PHb on the levels to add certain metamagic effects. Even then it was a bit too overpowered for me, so I added some cost to some metamagic feats.
Perhaps a good middle ground would be to have each spell level have its own metamagic costs. For insance (no thought put into the numbers, just the idea here) you could have it cost an additional 4 spell points to maximize a first level spell, and then have a 5th level spell cost an additional 8 points, and 8th level spells cost an additional 11 points, or something like that. This would be a little more complicated, but it would solve the problem that you posed.
I think (personal opinion) spell points should return with just rest. I still think there should be a limit to how many spells a wizard can store in memory, just that you don't burn the spell to cast it. The spellbook is used to switch out spells, and sleep is used to recover points. This would help mitigate a little the severity of losing your book, or being forced to keep it in hiding.
If you want that in your campaign, more power to ya'. I personally want there to be a reason that wizards value their spellbooks. I like sorcerers in 3e, but I don't like sorcerers on Athas. Keep in mind in this idea if a wizard does lose her spellbook, then if they create a new one, that will work just fine in using the spells in that new book.
Your comment did bring up another mechanical note though. The wizard can only cast spells that are in the spellbook that had been studied. So if the wizard has 5 spellbooks, only spells in that spellbook are available, not the others. Of course, if a wizard has all five spellbooks with them, then there are no problems.
Gather Grey Energy (int; Trained Only; Necromancer Only)
This skill allows a Necromancer to gather energy from the souls of the dead. The wizard must be a part of the Necromancer prestige class.
Check: The amount of spell energy gathered is equal to:
d20 + gather grey energy skill + int modifier + environment modifier - 15
Environment modifier:
Devoid (pure elements, no life force): not able to gather energy
Desolate (Plants and insects present): - 10
Barren (small animals present): -5
Infertile (normal city street): +0
Fertile (hospital ward): +5
Abundant (graveyard, battlefield): +10
Undead Presence: +15
Retry: This skill can be used as many times as the wizards has available spell points
Special: Use of this skill does damage to undead equal to the energy gathered.
Gather Shadow Energy (int; Trained Only; Black Wizard Only)
This skill allows wizards of the shadow mage prestige class to gather energy from the realm of shadow.
Check: The amount of spell energy gathered is equal to:
d20 + gather shadow energy skill + int modifier + environment modifier - 15
Environment Modifier:
Devoid (pitch darkness, no light at all): not able to gather energy
Desolate (mid-day sun in salt flats): -10
Barren (middle morning or afternoon sun in wilderness): -5
Infertile (City street during the day): +0
Fertile (Shadowy alley, well lit room): +5
Abundant (moonlight, lighted room): +10
Full shadows (dimly lit room, starlight only, shadow creature): +15
Retry: This skill can be used as many times as the wizards has available spell points
Special: Use of this skill does damage to shadow creatures equal to the energy gathered
I was not satisfied with the official rules with respect to my campaing. Quarions system was more the like I was looking for but far too complicated for my players. So I melted both systems together and came to the following idea. I will playtest it a while and will give you feedback how it was responded to.
The general ideas are:
a) Defilers are more powerfull than Preservers
b) A Preserver should constantly be tempted as this will be a major roleplaying aspect for this character class
c) The rule mechanic should put the temptation to the player and not back to the mechanic, i.e. by letting a random roll decide wheather or not a mage defiles
Rule Summary
Energy must be gathered from the soil and plants. To do so, the wizard must make a concentration skill roll (the idea is not to introduce a new skill and forcing the player to divide his skillpoints between this skill and his concentration skill). The player makes the roll as a free action. He could concentrate more rounds before casting the spell as partial actions. Each round of concentration before the round where the spell actually is cast lowers the DC to cast the spell by 1.
The DC to gather enough energy to cast a spell is
10 + spell level + terrain mod - number of preceding concentration rounds
Terrain Modifiers are
Terrain__________DC mod
Devoid__________Energy gathering not possible
Desolate__________+10
Barren__________+5
Infertile__________0
Fertile__________-5
Abundant__________-10
Tree of Life__________-15
The Preserver rolls his concentration check and willingly ignores any result that exceeds the minimum DC to cast the designated spell in the given environment. E.G. a Preserver with Concentration +8 wants to cast Fireball (3rd level) in a city (Infertile). His DC is 10 + 3 + 0 = 13. If he concentrates one additional round, the DC lowers to 12.
He rolls a 12 for a total of 20, 8 more than neccessary. He can cast the spell.
A Defiler can trade in any result his roll exceeds the given DC to purchase metamagic feats as of the following table:
Cost__________Metamagic (Defiler only)
2__________Enlarge Spell
2__________Heighten Spell
4__________Extend Spell
6__________Empower Spell
8__________maximise Spell
If the Preserver of the above example was a Defiler, he could use the result of 20 (remember: 8 points more than neccessary to cast that spell) to either maximise his fireball (8), or enlarge (2) and extend (4) it.
However, a Defiler defiles even when only amking the DC! A Preserver is free to use his skill roll to defile, but than he is subject to the taint rule.
As an additional rule, all creatures near to a Defiler suffer penalties if he casts a spell. The radius is defined by the terrain type (Desolate 100ft, Barren 30ft, anything better than Barren 5ft). The effect is -1 on attacks, damage, saves and initiative. Plant creatures suffer an additional 2 points of damage per spell level cast.
The reason for the extended circle in wastelands is that the energy must be sucked from a far wider space than in fertile areas so the effect is noticable at a greater distance.
Spell Save DC and Spellcaster Level Checks
As of DS3
Somatic Concealment
As of DS3
What do you think about this variant?
Originally posted by Quarion
Gather Grey Energy (int; Trained Only; Necromancer Only)
Gather Shadow Energy (int; Trained Only; Black Wizard Only)
In 3.5, there is no such thing as an exclusive skill...