Who wants a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Who wants a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
knightfall
Aug 04, 2003 23:33:35 Ok, I know moste believe the idea of a new greyhawk product is wishful thinking, but I just can't help but wonder if WotC might be 'secretly' planning the release of a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore.

This new product would be designed to be compatible with the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign, but it would also appeal to mainstream, hardcore Greyhawk gamers who are drooling for something new.

The book would be about half-flavor, half crunch and build upon the material presented in the 3E Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. In fact, all the flavor material in the LGG would be enhanced by such a release.

It would be the perfect way to make Greyhawk more 3.5E compatible and update the World of Greyhawk for the Living Greyhawk campaign.

The crunch would be new and/or revised signature spells by some of Greyhawk's best known wizards and sorcerers, 5 to 8 new prestige classes that help define certain power groups (i.e. Scarlet Brotherhood), and an expanded look at the pantheons of Greyhawk including several new Greyhawk specific domains.

The flavor would touch upon every country of the Flanaess without reading like a textbook. Designed more like the FRCS, with key NPCs written up and placed in the relavant sections of the book (and perhaps some maps of key Flanaess cities).

Of course, I'd want a new poster-sized map in the back (double-sided), which shows the Flanaess, as well as the City of Greyhawk.

WotC could even tie in a new revised Greyhawk Grimore with the upcoming Greyhawk: The Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG. It would be a great cross-promotional idea that could lead to other Greyhawk books and CRPGs (i.e. Ghost Tower).

All in all, I say that Wizards of the Coast should pay close attention to what we, Greyhawk fans, are clamoring for -- Greyhawk is well and alive of D&D fans, but we want more.

Cheers!

Robert Blezard, a.k.a. Knightfall1972
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
#2
Argon
Aug 04, 2003 23:51:50 Knightfall don't know much about the agreement between Wotc and RPGA. But I believe that the RPGA has the rights to greyhawk creations. One of the things Wotc could do is put the numerous scenarios for all the LGH regions into a module like format with the 3.5 rules addendum.
If they use those scenarios from previous seasons the non LGH players could enjoy them for pen and paper play. Plus it would not interfere with their current agreement with RPGA. TSR did a module like format with the Living city campaign run by the RPGA. The only thing is I think the RPGA would receive some royalties for the use of their creations. So I guess it could happen.
#3
chatdemon
Aug 07, 2003 4:07:28 I'd rather see Greyhawk material remain rules-lite, like the LGG was. This makes the material useful to those who, like me, don't play 3e or 3.5e.

I also see no reason why the LGG would need an update. All it contains rules wise is class levels for NPCs and domains for gods, nothing warranting a major revision.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 07, 2003 5:40:07 Blissful Greyhawk conspiracies alight!!!

I sure hope that is the case.
#5
Gnarley_Woodsman
Aug 07, 2003 7:38:13 I have to agree with Chatdemon for the most part. Leaving the supplement rules light would make it more "User Friendly".

However, there is another side of me that says I'd like to see a product just as "crunchy" as the FRCS. If not to appease my need for "Official" Greyhawk 3.0/3.5 compliant materials, then to throw it in the face of the FR lovers who refuse to try Greyhawk because "its a dead campaign"..... I get that a lot.

I run an open table using RPGA character generation down a t my local gaming store. I get newbies and old schoolers, and even the older players are ypping at me to use FR.

I had a kid from Israel ask me to run an online game via ICQ. He sent me his preliminary character background......saturated with FR info, his home city, and the god to whom he was devoted. I asked him about Greyhawk, presenting the default pantheon in the core books....He told me he preferred the FR, because there was more details. I questioned him about the "spoonfed" content, and still he said...I can take what I need and leave the rest. Which was unfortunately more than he could say about Greyhawk.

So for me its about seeing it official, with some level of rules detail. Something on the level with the FRCS....maybe too much for my tastes, but it couldn't hurt for the newbies to have a difinitive 3.0/3.5 Greyhawk sourcebook.
#6
Gnarley_Woodsman
Aug 07, 2003 7:41:28 Hey Chatdemon-

I noticed your in Ft. Meyers. I'm in Labelle practically every weekend. Do you game on the weekend? Do you have an available slot?
#7
zombiegleemax
Aug 07, 2003 14:11:15 For GH I'd like to see an full print of the LG scenarios out once a year as they retire and a compilation of the LG-Journal material from Dungeon and again every year.

Maybe a new super-module similar in scope to Temple but set somewhere new .... Ratik, Bone March or maybe one of the barbarian areas.
#8
knightfall
Aug 07, 2003 20:01:59
Originally posted by Argon
Knightfall don't know much about the agreement between Wotc and RPGA. But I believe that the RPGA has the rights to greyhawk creations. One of the things Wotc could do is put the numerous scenarios for all the LGH regions into a module like format with the 3.5 rules addendum.
If they use those scenarios from previous seasons the non LGH players could enjoy them for pen and paper play. Plus it would not interfere with their current agreement with RPGA. TSR did a module like format with the Living city campaign run by the RPGA. The only thing is I think the RPGA would receive some royalties for the use of their creations. So I guess it could happen.

While I'm not discounting that the RPGA is the sole source for new Greyhawk material, I doubt that the agreement betweeen WotC and the RPGA is so iron-clad that WotC can't release Greyhawk material. So far, they've simply leet the RPGA run with it. The rights to the campaign setting belongs to WotC, period, until they license it out to a d20 company or do somrthing else with it. I think, the RPGA has simply been handed the key to the Flanaess to playw with until WotC decides they want it back.

I agree with you're idea about packaging the various Living Greyhawk scenarios (the good, retired ones at least) into a 3.5E module package. They could link certain scenarios, if they're not linked already, and slap both the D&D and RPGA logos on them. This would appeal to D&D fans, Greyhawk fans, and RPGA fans, IMO, if the marketing and promotion of the modules are done right.

Originally posted by chatdemon
I'd rather see Greyhawk material remain rules-lite, like the LGG was. This makes the material useful to those who, like me, don't play 3e or 3.5e.

I also see no reason why the LGG would need an update. All it contains rules wise is class levels for NPCs and domains for gods, nothing warranting a major revision.

Ok, so what is rules lite material.

The basic character creation, combat rules, and other core rule material wouldn't change. Greyhawk is the default D&D campaign setting for a reason. However, a lot of things have changed in 3.5E and Living Greyhawk will have to be updated, otherwise it will fade away. Fans of Living Greyhawk don't want that and neither should regular Greyhawk fans. It would give WotC a reason to shelf Greyhawk permanently.

Maybe a 50/50 split book is too much for Greyhawk fans. Maybe it should be more flavorful with updated events in each RPGA region but with a touch of crunchiness for those crying out for more. Perhaps regional feats like they did in the FRCS, which would enhance RPGA play as well. Of course, I'd still like to see some new and/or updated Co8 signature spells in a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore. I'd also want at least a few 4 or 5 new prestige classes devoted strictly to play in a Greyhawk campaign, as well as guidelines for using pre-existing prestige classes in Greyhawk. Sort of like which PrCs fit best with which regions or cities. Does their need to be a specific PrC for say the Scarlet Brotherhood, or is their already a monk PrC that fits the bill. Stuff like that.

Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman
I have to agree with Chatdemon for the most part. Leaving the supplement rules light would make it more "User Friendly".

However, there is another side of me that says I'd like to see a product just as "crunchy" as the FRCS. If not to appease my need for "Official" Greyhawk 3.0/3.5 compliant materials, then to throw it in the face of the FR lovers who refuse to try Greyhawk because "its a dead campaign"..... I get that a lot.

I run an open table using RPGA character generation down a t my local gaming store. I get newbies and old schoolers, and even the older players are ypping at me to use FR.

I had a kid from Israel ask me to run an online game via ICQ. He sent me his preliminary character background......saturated with FR info, his home city, and the god to whom he was devoted. I asked him about Greyhawk, presenting the default pantheon in the core books....He told me he preferred the FR, because there was more details. I questioned him about the "spoonfed" content, and still he said...I can take what I need and leave the rest. Which was unfortunately more than he could say about Greyhawk.

So for me its about seeing it official, with some level of rules detail. Something on the level with the FRCS....maybe too much for my tastes, but it couldn't hurt for the newbies to have a difinitive 3.0/3.5 Greyhawk sourcebook.

I'm with you and Chatdemon on whether or not the book should be flavorful or crunch heavy. Sure I'd like to see a whole line of crunch heavy products for Greyhawk but somehow I doubt that will happen anytime soon. A definitive 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore would be a nice addition to any Greyhawk fan's library.

And I also get a lot of resistance form players when I tell them I'm inot Greyhawk and would only DM for that campaign setting or my own homebrew one. Most live and die for the Forgotten Realms. Me, personally, I don't mind the Realms but there isn't any way I'd ever DM a campaign in it. It's just too intense and fragmented. I didn't mind the detail done for the Realms in 2E, but for 3E it's too much. (A lot of the early 2E Realms material was heavy on flavor, which I liked. 3E Realms just has a sick amount of rules material for it, IMO.)

Originally posted by StevieS
For GH I'd like to see an full print of the LG scenarios out once a year as they retire and a compilation of the LG-Journal material from Dungeon and again every year.

Maybe a new super-module similar in scope to Temple but set somewhere new .... Ratik, Bone March or maybe one of the barbarian areas.

You know, Greyhawk fans think alike. We've had this conversation on the old WotC boards time and time again and we always come up with the idea of WotC putting out print versions of LG Scenarios every time. The retired modules are just sitting gathering dust. WotC should take the best of the best of those retired modules and put out a butt kick module or series of modules that would expose more players to Greyhawk and the RPGA.

As for a new super-module, I think the Ghost Tower would be a great locale to stir up the Flanaess. Greyhawk fans really got a kick out of the Bright Desert article recently presented in Polyhedron. If WotC and the RPGA played their cards right, they could put out a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore (expanding upon what was presented in the LLG), a series or package of the Best of LG's Retired Scenarios, a new super-module based around the Bright Desert and the Ghost Tower (linking Greyhawk and D&D fans more to Dungeon/Polyhedron), and tieing it all together in conjunction with the upcoming Greyhawk CRPG by putting out a sequel to The Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG based in the Bright Desert and the Ghost Tower. (Heck they could even throw Rary into the mix by putting out an expansion to a Ghost Tower CRPG, which takes them across the Bright Desert to fight Rary's minions and help protect the Flanaess from his latest machinations.)

After that, they could go all out and do a third CRPG set in the City of Greyhawk, which would allow for the cross selling of a new super-module/accessory that is set in the City of Greyhawk. That way, WotC could be making money on both sides of the coin. Both paper-based and computer roleplaying. Add to that a trilogy of novels set in the City of Greyhawk and who knows where it could lead. (Imagine a CRPG designed like Neverwinter Nights but for Greyhawk. Imagine a stategy roleplaying game based on the Greyhawk Wars, where you can pick a side and conquer the Flanaess. And imagine having official Greyhawk products being put out at the same time to bring in more D&D-based dollars.)

This is how we have to convince WotC that Greyhawk is a money maker. We have to give them new ideas and let them know we'd buy them in a heartbeat.

Cheers!

Knightfall
#9
Argon
Aug 07, 2003 20:33:00 Well said Knightfall, you are correct GH fans have similar opinions. I especially liked the computer-based strategy game Greyhawk Wars idea. Heck the difference with the computer game is that one nation has the ability to conquer any territory or even rule all of known Oerth. Can you imagine a Bissel controled Ket or a Veluna controlled by Keoland. Maybe Perrenland not's so neutral. Your leader for these nations is simple King Belvor for Furyondy, Iuz for the Empire of Iuz, Canon Hazen for Veluna, the list justs goes on and on. It would also be a great way for WOTC to market their new minature rules supplement. If they incorporate it into the game correctly you could be adding strategy computer gamers to the rpg gamers list.
We just had a productive meeting for the corporate outlook on the Greyhawk project. Now that we just sold it. Someone in corporate has to do the same.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 knightfall Aug 04, 2003 23:33:35	Ok, I know moste believe the idea of a new greyhawk product is wishful thinking, but I just can't help but wonder if WotC might be 'secretly' planning the release of a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore. This new product would be designed to be compatible with the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign, but it would also appeal to mainstream, hardcore Greyhawk gamers who are drooling for something new. The book would be about half-flavor, half crunch and build upon the material presented in the 3E Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. In fact, all the flavor material in the LGG would be enhanced by such a release. It would be the perfect way to make Greyhawk more 3.5E compatible and update the World of Greyhawk for the Living Greyhawk campaign. The crunch would be new and/or revised signature spells by some of Greyhawk's best known wizards and sorcerers, 5 to 8 new prestige classes that help define certain power groups (i.e. Scarlet Brotherhood), and an expanded look at the pantheons of Greyhawk including several new Greyhawk specific domains. The flavor would touch upon every country of the Flanaess without reading like a textbook. Designed more like the FRCS, with key NPCs written up and placed in the relavant sections of the book (and perhaps some maps of key Flanaess cities). Of course, I'd want a new poster-sized map in the back (double-sided), which shows the Flanaess, as well as the City of Greyhawk. WotC could even tie in a new revised Greyhawk Grimore with the upcoming Greyhawk: The Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG. It would be a great cross-promotional idea that could lead to other Greyhawk books and CRPGs (i.e. Ghost Tower). All in all, I say that Wizards of the Coast should pay close attention to what we, Greyhawk fans, are clamoring for -- Greyhawk is well and alive of D&D fans, but we want more. Cheers! Robert Blezard, a.k.a. Knightfall1972 Edmonton, Alberta Canada
#2 Argon Aug 04, 2003 23:51:50	Knightfall don't know much about the agreement between Wotc and RPGA. But I believe that the RPGA has the rights to greyhawk creations. One of the things Wotc could do is put the numerous scenarios for all the LGH regions into a module like format with the 3.5 rules addendum. If they use those scenarios from previous seasons the non LGH players could enjoy them for pen and paper play. Plus it would not interfere with their current agreement with RPGA. TSR did a module like format with the Living city campaign run by the RPGA. The only thing is I think the RPGA would receive some royalties for the use of their creations. So I guess it could happen.
#3 chatdemon Aug 07, 2003 4:07:28	I'd rather see Greyhawk material remain rules-lite, like the LGG was. This makes the material useful to those who, like me, don't play 3e or 3.5e. I also see no reason why the LGG would need an update. All it contains rules wise is class levels for NPCs and domains for gods, nothing warranting a major revision.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 07, 2003 5:40:07	Blissful Greyhawk conspiracies alight!!! I sure hope that is the case.
#5 Gnarley_Woodsman Aug 07, 2003 7:38:13	I have to agree with Chatdemon for the most part. Leaving the supplement rules light would make it more "User Friendly". However, there is another side of me that says I'd like to see a product just as "crunchy" as the FRCS. If not to appease my need for "Official" Greyhawk 3.0/3.5 compliant materials, then to throw it in the face of the FR lovers who refuse to try Greyhawk because "its a dead campaign"..... I get that a lot. I run an open table using RPGA character generation down a t my local gaming store. I get newbies and old schoolers, and even the older players are ypping at me to use FR. I had a kid from Israel ask me to run an online game via ICQ. He sent me his preliminary character background......saturated with FR info, his home city, and the god to whom he was devoted. I asked him about Greyhawk, presenting the default pantheon in the core books....He told me he preferred the FR, because there was more details. I questioned him about the "spoonfed" content, and still he said...I can take what I need and leave the rest. Which was unfortunately more than he could say about Greyhawk. So for me its about seeing it official, with some level of rules detail. Something on the level with the FRCS....maybe too much for my tastes, but it couldn't hurt for the newbies to have a difinitive 3.0/3.5 Greyhawk sourcebook.
#6 Gnarley_Woodsman Aug 07, 2003 7:41:28	Hey Chatdemon- I noticed your in Ft. Meyers. I'm in Labelle practically every weekend. Do you game on the weekend? Do you have an available slot?
#7 zombiegleemax Aug 07, 2003 14:11:15	For GH I'd like to see an full print of the LG scenarios out once a year as they retire and a compilation of the LG-Journal material from Dungeon and again every year. Maybe a new super-module similar in scope to Temple but set somewhere new .... Ratik, Bone March or maybe one of the barbarian areas.
#8 knightfall Aug 07, 2003 20:01:59	Originally posted by Argon Knightfall don't know much about the agreement between Wotc and RPGA. But I believe that the RPGA has the rights to greyhawk creations. One of the things Wotc could do is put the numerous scenarios for all the LGH regions into a module like format with the 3.5 rules addendum. If they use those scenarios from previous seasons the non LGH players could enjoy them for pen and paper play. Plus it would not interfere with their current agreement with RPGA. TSR did a module like format with the Living city campaign run by the RPGA. The only thing is I think the RPGA would receive some royalties for the use of their creations. So I guess it could happen. While I'm not discounting that the RPGA is the sole source for new Greyhawk material, I doubt that the agreement betweeen WotC and the RPGA is so iron-clad that WotC can't release Greyhawk material. So far, they've simply leet the RPGA run with it. The rights to the campaign setting belongs to WotC, period, until they license it out to a d20 company or do somrthing else with it. I think, the RPGA has simply been handed the key to the Flanaess to playw with until WotC decides they want it back. I agree with you're idea about packaging the various Living Greyhawk scenarios (the good, retired ones at least) into a 3.5E module package. They could link certain scenarios, if they're not linked already, and slap both the D&D and RPGA logos on them. This would appeal to D&D fans, Greyhawk fans, and RPGA fans, IMO, if the marketing and promotion of the modules are done right. Originally posted by chatdemon I'd rather see Greyhawk material remain rules-lite, like the LGG was. This makes the material useful to those who, like me, don't play 3e or 3.5e. I also see no reason why the LGG would need an update. All it contains rules wise is class levels for NPCs and domains for gods, nothing warranting a major revision. Ok, so what is rules lite material. The basic character creation, combat rules, and other core rule material wouldn't change. Greyhawk is the default D&D campaign setting for a reason. However, a lot of things have changed in 3.5E and Living Greyhawk will have to be updated, otherwise it will fade away. Fans of Living Greyhawk don't want that and neither should regular Greyhawk fans. It would give WotC a reason to shelf Greyhawk permanently. Maybe a 50/50 split book is too much for Greyhawk fans. Maybe it should be more flavorful with updated events in each RPGA region but with a touch of crunchiness for those crying out for more. Perhaps regional feats like they did in the FRCS, which would enhance RPGA play as well. Of course, I'd still like to see some new and/or updated Co8 signature spells in a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore. I'd also want at least a few 4 or 5 new prestige classes devoted strictly to play in a Greyhawk campaign, as well as guidelines for using pre-existing prestige classes in Greyhawk. Sort of like which PrCs fit best with which regions or cities. Does their need to be a specific PrC for say the Scarlet Brotherhood, or is their already a monk PrC that fits the bill. Stuff like that. Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman I have to agree with Chatdemon for the most part. Leaving the supplement rules light would make it more "User Friendly". However, there is another side of me that says I'd like to see a product just as "crunchy" as the FRCS. If not to appease my need for "Official" Greyhawk 3.0/3.5 compliant materials, then to throw it in the face of the FR lovers who refuse to try Greyhawk because "its a dead campaign"..... I get that a lot. I run an open table using RPGA character generation down a t my local gaming store. I get newbies and old schoolers, and even the older players are ypping at me to use FR. I had a kid from Israel ask me to run an online game via ICQ. He sent me his preliminary character background......saturated with FR info, his home city, and the god to whom he was devoted. I asked him about Greyhawk, presenting the default pantheon in the core books....He told me he preferred the FR, because there was more details. I questioned him about the "spoonfed" content, and still he said...I can take what I need and leave the rest. Which was unfortunately more than he could say about Greyhawk. So for me its about seeing it official, with some level of rules detail. Something on the level with the FRCS....maybe too much for my tastes, but it couldn't hurt for the newbies to have a difinitive 3.0/3.5 Greyhawk sourcebook. I'm with you and Chatdemon on whether or not the book should be flavorful or crunch heavy. Sure I'd like to see a whole line of crunch heavy products for Greyhawk but somehow I doubt that will happen anytime soon. A definitive 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore would be a nice addition to any Greyhawk fan's library. And I also get a lot of resistance form players when I tell them I'm inot Greyhawk and would only DM for that campaign setting or my own homebrew one. Most live and die for the Forgotten Realms. Me, personally, I don't mind the Realms but there isn't any way I'd ever DM a campaign in it. It's just too intense and fragmented. I didn't mind the detail done for the Realms in 2E, but for 3E it's too much. (A lot of the early 2E Realms material was heavy on flavor, which I liked. 3E Realms just has a sick amount of rules material for it, IMO.) Originally posted by StevieS For GH I'd like to see an full print of the LG scenarios out once a year as they retire and a compilation of the LG-Journal material from Dungeon and again every year. Maybe a new super-module similar in scope to Temple but set somewhere new .... Ratik, Bone March or maybe one of the barbarian areas. You know, Greyhawk fans think alike. We've had this conversation on the old WotC boards time and time again and we always come up with the idea of WotC putting out print versions of LG Scenarios every time. The retired modules are just sitting gathering dust. WotC should take the best of the best of those retired modules and put out a butt kick module or series of modules that would expose more players to Greyhawk and the RPGA. As for a new super-module, I think the Ghost Tower would be a great locale to stir up the Flanaess. Greyhawk fans really got a kick out of the Bright Desert article recently presented in Polyhedron. If WotC and the RPGA played their cards right, they could put out a new 3.5E Greyhawk Grimore (expanding upon what was presented in the LLG), a series or package of the Best of LG's Retired Scenarios, a new super-module based around the Bright Desert and the Ghost Tower (linking Greyhawk and D&D fans more to Dungeon/Polyhedron), and tieing it all together in conjunction with the upcoming Greyhawk CRPG by putting out a sequel to The Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG based in the Bright Desert and the Ghost Tower. (Heck they could even throw Rary into the mix by putting out an expansion to a Ghost Tower CRPG, which takes them across the Bright Desert to fight Rary's minions and help protect the Flanaess from his latest machinations.) After that, they could go all out and do a third CRPG set in the City of Greyhawk, which would allow for the cross selling of a new super-module/accessory that is set in the City of Greyhawk. That way, WotC could be making money on both sides of the coin. Both paper-based and computer roleplaying. Add to that a trilogy of novels set in the City of Greyhawk and who knows where it could lead. (Imagine a CRPG designed like Neverwinter Nights but for Greyhawk. Imagine a stategy roleplaying game based on the Greyhawk Wars, where you can pick a side and conquer the Flanaess. And imagine having official Greyhawk products being put out at the same time to bring in more D&D-based dollars.) This is how we have to convince WotC that Greyhawk is a money maker. We have to give them new ideas and let them know we'd buy them in a heartbeat. Cheers! Knightfall
#9 Argon Aug 07, 2003 20:33:00	Well said Knightfall, you are correct GH fans have similar opinions. I especially liked the computer-based strategy game Greyhawk Wars idea. Heck the difference with the computer game is that one nation has the ability to conquer any territory or even rule all of known Oerth. Can you imagine a Bissel controled Ket or a Veluna controlled by Keoland. Maybe Perrenland not's so neutral. Your leader for these nations is simple King Belvor for Furyondy, Iuz for the Empire of Iuz, Canon Hazen for Veluna, the list justs goes on and on. It would also be a great way for WOTC to market their new minature rules supplement. If they incorporate it into the game correctly you could be adding strategy computer gamers to the rpg gamers list. We just had a productive meeting for the corporate outlook on the Greyhawk project. Now that we just sold it. Someone in corporate has to do the same.