How do you know a wizard has taken the Test? I mean, when you meet a wizard how do you know he or she isn't a renegade? The WoHS don't give you a card or anything, and just because you happen to have a magic item or a glaring physical disability, doesn't necessarily mean you got it for passing the Test.
Is the only way a person is branded a renegade is if the Tower of High sorcery lists them on their most wanted list? Even then how does the word get out about this guy or gal? What if the renegade simply changes their appearance?
Or is this only a matter for renegade hunters to deal with? So if you meet a wizard he could or could not be a renegade, you just have to take their word for it.
Matthew L. Martin
The Three Gods have never seemed particularly chummy with anyone. They sometimes gave Par-Salien some hints, nudging him towards the knowledge of the incursion of the coming Dragonarmies. They only helped Raistlin in the very beginning (taking the first Test with his Teacher in Soulforge), and once he'd passed on from the world and had proven himself into the kind of level where he had knowledge of the gods, power similar to some gods, and wisdom that the three gods had deemed necessary to be heard( ala the WoS trilogy). Heck, the only guy I've ever read about being chummy with any of the three was the War Wizard from Brothers in Arms who liked to hang out with "Luni".
The Three Gods of Magic are GODS. GODS! Gods work in mysterious ways. Heck, even the most meddlesome of the (good and neutral) Gods, Paladine never revealed much. He definitely never pointed and said "Go get THAT guy!" The Evil gods are always a bit more blunt but usually still vague, saying "Raise an army" not "Hunt down and kill this man".
Anyways, about the actual TOPIC:
The thing about being a Renegade and hiding it. Well, its all about how you act. If you put up a front that makes you seem very respectable and don't do anything obviously renegadey (i.e. debunking the WoHS, mocking the gods of magic, etc...) then no wizard would be the wiser. But after long periods of contact any WoHS would begin to note certain things in their companions. The biggest is NOT attending Wizard's Counsels. Other ways they may get caught: Not knowing about new news told at Counsels, lacking knowledge of key information about Council policies, and of course, mentioning the new friend to another wizard who just happens to mention the name to another, the chain going all the way up to the head of the council who looks through his BIG ol' Book of everything and says "Hm, HE'S not a Wizard! ERGH!!"
Originally posted by L33t Angel
Ew, Ferratus, that is a disturbing image of the universe.
I'm glad we agree.
So if we all rule out the fact that gods do not interfere, or there is not such a thing as a "detect renegade" divination spell (both of which would make for hunting renegades extremely boring). I also don't approve of renegades being able to be discovered at a glance, like Matthew L. Martin mentioned. All of these make it impossible for renegades to die in their beds of old age.
So then we can only tell what a renegade is by the actions that she does. She has to commit crimes in order to be a renegade. Now obviously, a renegade that casts a fireball who you know hasn't taken the test is easy. But as Kipper said, how do you know?
Obviously there are some social contacts. All the wizards in a particular city probably know each other, just like the bakers and the blacksmiths know their peers. This might be formal (like a magic guild), a matter of etiquette (I want to know who else is on my turf), and/or purely social (we spend time together and run into each other at the mageware shop). Thus, renegade wizards probably are nomadic or spend most of their time isolated from society. This would also have the effect that adventuring mages are looked at with suspicion whenever they walk into town before they establish their credentials.
So we've covered what would be necessary for people to recognize those who haven't taken the test, and how non-tested renegades could avoid detection (namely by avoiding extensive contact with other wizards). The other option to avoid the wrath of the conclave is by having power too great for the conclave to fight against, or by having powerful allies (such as the Emperor of Ergoth).
Much, much more difficult are renegades who have taken the test and betrayed the order. So, let's talk about the nitty gritty of the crimes. What does someone have to do to be a traitor?
Myself, I think:
Attaining lichdom is an offense which would lead to being branded a renegade. Otherwise, you would quickly end up with a Vampire-eque rule of the black robes by Antedeluvian undead masters. As well, it seems that magical knowledge and power is hoarded by these undead, rather than shared and allowed to grow with fresh blood. Finally, there is the fact that they are probably a creature of Chemosh, who probably lusts after the power of magic to be his to control, specifically necromancy.
I'm gonna go search for the rest of the crimes that would end up having you branded a renegade on the old boards and repost it here. Until then, what do you all think is a crime worthy of being branded a renegade?
Originally posted by ferratus
I'm gonna go search for the rest of the crimes that would end up having you branded a renegade on the old boards and repost it here. Until then, what do you all think is a crime worthy of being branded a renegade?
Uhmm, openly teaching wizardy to the kender population.
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
Uhmm, openly teaching wizardy to the kender population.
Okay, so all kender with the gift for magic will all be Raistlin's mother. All those cheerful, happy kender driven insane by their magical talent that they can't control until it twists and twists inside of them.
Oh well, it isn't as if that's cold bloodedly evil or anything. ;)
Other laws:
Attempting to steal magical power from the other moons. (Note: This causes probelms with beings like Par-Salien who can transcend the boundaries of the Robes in alimited fashion).
Stealing/Killing/Destroying anything/one while in the Tower of Wayreth. Breaking the rules that keep the Tower of High Sorcery a Neutral ground would definitely result in expulsion. (Note: Punishment scales with crime. It is probably possible to earn one's way back into good standing through service)
Openly attacking the Counsel. Anyone who plots to control the Tower of High Sorcery or to rule the Conclave through force will be looked down on. You can't raise an army, march up to the Gates, kill Dalamar, and then become the Head of the Conclave. (Note: The second-in-command Black Robed Wizard may possibley gain power through these means. However, any open discovery of the murder would result in punishment, and the unexplained death of the Head of the Black Robes would instantly arouse suspicion involving that Mage's successor.)
I'm guessing these offenses will brand you a renegade:
Attaining Lichdom: When you have an organization, not clearing room for younger blood is bad for the health of an organization. People get frustrated with a lack of advancement. Plus, it probably means that Chemosh has his skeletal hand in there, and the moon gods wouldn't like the poaching.
Actively undermining the conclave: This would include things such as establishing rival schools of magic, teaching pupils outside of the conclave's juristiction, formenting mistrust of the conclave among the civilian population.
Attacking magic itself: Doing things like sucking magic dry out of other mages, trying to prevent the flow of magic to Krynn, burning down magical libraries to prevent others from learning the spell secrets, etc.
Serious Breech of Protocol: Killing mages on "neutral" zones such as the Towers of High Sorcery.
There are probably other offenses that wouldn't have you branded as a renegade, but might lead to a slap on the wrist or something, such as:
- Carrying a weapon other than a dagger or staff
- Refusing to take an apprentice, or ducking the duty as long as possible
- Destroying magical items or spellbooks of a different alignment
- Not treating fellow mages with the respect their rank and power accords them
Some things would be considered normal, such as:
- Killing other conclave members in battle when you are in rival camps
- Praying to dieties other than the gods of the moon
There's the kind which never takes the Test and somehow advances in magical knowledge, probably through self-education, finding other renegades to teach him, reading through old spellbooks, etc. These renegades are forever considered dabblers by the Orders, unless they begin to cast spells beyond their ken, in which case their lack of the aura of power coupled with their use of higher-level magic makes them clearly renegades. They will be made to take the Test, and if they survive they'll be accepted into the Orders.
And then there's the kind that passes the Test, wears the Robes, and then decides to tell the Orders exactly where to go. This kind is much more dangerous, having had access to the secrets of the Towers, and almost impossible to detect as being renegade outside of witnesses. They're the classic villains in many of the novels, such as Valkyn in The Citadel and even Raistlin. These are the kind of wizard who, if their abuse of power has lead to threats against magic, the structure of wizardry on Krynn, and the perversion of what their Order holds dear, will be imprisoned, stripped of their magic through mortal means (dispel magic collars, anti-magic cells, etc) or killed (in the case of Black Robes caught by other Black Robes.)
If you're the first kind of renegade, your best bet is to not cast those 3rd-level and higher spells, using the slots to prepare more lower level spells or for metamagically-enhanced lower level spells. You'd never catch the attention of another wizard, and you could grow old and die a happy (and experienced) dabbler.
Cheers,
Cam
However, I should add that a metamagicked spells are no match for spells of higher level. You can get away with it for awhile, but you'll soon find yourself lagging far behind your companions in raw power.
Which, of course, is why people become renegades in the first place. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
Everything Cam said in his previous post is true, and that's pretty much how I handle magic users in my own game.
However, I should add that a metamagicked spells are no match for spells of higher level. You can get away with it for awhile, but you'll soon find yourself lagging far behind your companions in raw power.
Which, of course, is why people become renegades in the first place. ;)
Well, yeah. I never said it would be fun to limit yourself to low-level spells, just a good way to stay under the radar.
Cheers,
Cam