Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Wizards take their magic from High Sorcery, sorcerers and bards take theirs from Wild Sorcery (primal sorcery).
Originally posted by ferratus
Now, I'm awfully shocked that people always talk about hybrid magic in regards to blending sorcery and mysticism... but nobody talks about blending sorcery and wizardry. Think about it. For those of you who have the DLCS, imagine if a sorcerer could take the WoHS prestige class. They would effectively, be a hybrid of the old magic and the new.
See, wizardry is all about learning rituals by rote. Sorcery is feeling magic and harnessing it. So the methods of casting spells are different.... but what if a sorcerer uses sorcery to feel out "moon magic" the way they do "ambient magic"? Or rather, use ambient magic, but influenced by the moons?
Well, in my opinion, sorcery, as given by the spell list of the PHB is a "Hybrid," of ambient and processed magical energy. By SAGA's definitions, Sorcery is an elemental magic from things. it doesn't affect living material. 3eD&D's sorcery spell list has stuff that's arcane, but that arcane magic is definitely affects the mind as well as the body. Necromancy was a Sphere in SAGA. in 3eD&D it's back to being a school for magic users. 3eD&D sorcerers have matured from the days where SAGA's Sorcerors were limited to 1 or 3 schools affecting non-living material.
Granak Red-Silver
Sivak
The Wizards of High Sorcery require total dedication and commitment to the Orders. The magic must come first; it is the wizard's primary loyalty. One cannot swear an oath to another agency and remain a wizard for long. Likewise, the Holy Orders of the Stars require total commitment to the gods. A cleric places his god above all other loyalties, in return for divine power.
One cannot be both a Wizard of High Sorcery and a cleric of one of the gods of Krynn, even if the alignments are compatible. You cannot split loyalties in this way. There are no White Robe clerics of Majere. One cannot also be both a Wizard of High Sorcery and a sorcerer - the Orders demand true dedication to the magic of the moons, which means they cannot divide their focus between the Orders and in the practice of wild magic. And, one cannot be both a cleric in the Holy Orders, with a profound inner faith in the gods, and a mystic, with a profound inner faith in one's self. It's one or the other.
This also implies that one cannot be both a spellcasting ranger and a Wizard of High Sorcery or a mystic, nor can one be both a druid and a mystic or a druid and a Wizard of High Sorcery. It's a question of who the character has placed his loyalties, his focus, and his dedication in - himself, or the gods?
Now, there's probably ample amounts of controversy in this sort of campaign-determined limitation. I imagine many people would like to argue in favor of clerics of Majere with mystic levels, for example. Honestly? Nothing's stopping you. However, it was the specified and implied intent of the designers of the DLCS that these limitations be in place. In order to truly embrace the setting's thematic ideals, ambient magic and focused magic must remain incompatible practices.
By the way, rules are given in the DLCS for "epiphanies", those pivotal moments when a cleric or wizard turns to mysticism or sorcery in the absence of the gods, and vice versa with their return. Under these rules, total class level replacement is the ultimate result, as has been seen clearly in the case of Palin and Goldmoon, to name a pair of examples.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Basically Sorcery on Krynn is 2e magic, just as mysticism is 2e clerical magic. They didn't break the D&D mold of classes with SAGA to make something radically new. It isn't like unearthed arcana for example.
Or Arcana Unearthed. ;)
The simplistic view of magic is that High Sorcery and Wild Sorcery are both arcane magic, and that clerical magic and Mysticism are both divine magic. The only difference is where it comes from.
However, that difference comes in the form of the gods. That adds a whole new dynamic to the equation, which Cam mentions below.
Now, I'm awfully shocked that people always talk about hybrid magic in regards to blending sorcery and mysticism... but nobody talks about blending sorcery and wizardry. Think about it. For those of you who have the DLCS, imagine if a sorcerer could take the WoHS prestige class. They would effectively, be a hybrid of the old magic and the new.
You are right in that nobody seems to talk about the hybrid of High Sorcery and Wild Sorcery. This comes across to me as a grey area. On the one hand, the magic must come first, and dividing one's attention between two classes doesn't really follow that.
At the same time, it is all arcane magic. Even if one's attention is divided between classes, one is still devoted wholly to magic and is just studying two aspects of it.
See, wizardry is all about learning rituals by rote. Sorcery is feeling magic and harnessing it. So the methods of casting spells are different.... but what if a sorcerer uses sorcery to feel out "moon magic" the way they do "ambient magic"? Or rather, use ambient magic, but influenced by the moons?
Ambient magic isn't influenced by the moons, though. Rather, it is focused back into the form of High Sorcery.
I've actually toyed with the notion of a High Sorcerer prestige class for sorcerers to take, where they still cast like they normally do, but they draw their power from the moons.
The sorcerers and the conclave cannot remain at war forever. For the forseeable future certainly, but not forever. This would allow a PC to get in on the ground floor of being part of the reconcilliation between the two orders... and caught in the crossfire as well. Too many adventure seeds to turn down I'm afraid.
Certainly, there will be a conflict and there will be a resolution. I almost wonder if a new order for the WoHS will be created for sorcerers. More likely, a new order outside the WoHS will be created, or sorcerers will just be left alone (which I doubt).
For the record, I can't see either sorcery or wizardry being the victor in the coming conflict. The WoHS is going to have to realize that they can control magic without commanding the obedience of all. The sorcerers are going to have to learn that the WoHS commands respect.
I hope there is no victor. After all, DL is about balance, and that can be applied in many ways. The neutral gods (minus Lunitari) may seek a balance between sorcerers and wizards.
We'll have to wait and see.
To touch upon what Granak said...
The change from the SAGA system to D&D has, indeed, changed our view of sorcerers and mystics. I think much of that can be explained in-world by saying that ambient magic-users were just discovering magic, and how it related. Now with focused magic back, one can compare the two, and a greater understanding of ambient magic can occur.
Now, to address what Cam said...
I mostly agree, and I agree with the thematic ideals. However, I've always been a supporter of the exception to the rule. Like you say, clerical magic and Mysticism are fairly incompatable. Your example of Majere is pretty dead-on, though, as clerics of Majere are introspective, much like a mystic is.
This is something I would weigh carefully as a DM. Ask yourself if multi-classing where you normally wouldn't would still fit the themes of both the world and the campaign. Certainly, there will be those who really don't care and just want to have some fun, and that's cool too.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I find this new time period in DL to be cool!
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I mostly agree, and I agree with the thematic ideals. However, I've always been a supporter of the exception to the rule. Like you say, clerical magic and Mysticism are fairly incompatable. Your example of Majere is pretty dead-on, though, as clerics of Majere are introspective, much like a mystic is.
There's a difference between introspection based on devotion to the ideals of a god of meditation and discipline, as part of your faith and reverence for that deity, and introspection that forms the focus for your own intense belief in the power of the heart to work miracles.
A mystic could revere Majere. A cleric of Majere could not be a mystic. Majere may find mystics fascinating and even advocate the pursuit of the idea of mystics, much as he advocates monks, but no cleric of Majere who gains power from wholly devoting his life to Majere would be capable of the faith in meditation alone as the gateway to mysticism.
That's the key - once you step on the clerical bandwagon, you only get power if your deity is number one in your book. That's the cleric's schtick. Followers of Majere who aren't clerics are free to do as they like.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
That's the key - once you step on the clerical bandwagon, you only get power if your deity is number one in your book. That's the cleric's schtick. Followers of Majere who aren't clerics are free to do as they like.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying a Cleric of Majere can't multiclass into a Mystic without losing his cleric spells?
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying a Cleric of Majere can't multiclass into a Mystic without losing his cleric spells?
You're right.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
One cannot also be both a Wizard of High Sorcery and a sorcerer - the Orders demand true dedication to the magic of the moons, which means they cannot divide their focus between the Orders and in the practice of wild magic.
All that is required, is that a person be devoted the moons, with all his heart and soul, and be influenced by the moons, but still cast spells like a sorcerer does.
You do not become a wizard simply by casting spells that are moon magic. Otherwise, you would have simply been able to cast sorcery after the Chaos War without a learning curve. The way that wizards and sorcerers cast spells are fundamentally different.
However, consider the possibility that the moon gods can focus wild sorcery, without turning it into wizardry. If not, why not?
We already know that sorcery and wizardry are not two sources for the same way of casting spells. I cannot stress that enough.
As for mystics, you are saying that majere... a god that is all about introspection and meditation, will not encourage introspection and meditation among his followers and develop their own abilities in addition to his divine understanding? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a lick of sense.
I know that Sovereign Press is the lawful husband of the lady known as Dragonlance. However, she seems to be telling me secrets when she is my lover that she isn't telling you. She isn't going to wear the rags of 2e and SAGA anymore. She's changed, she's different than the girl you married. She's wilder, more liberated, less easily contained. The mystics for example, are nothing anymore like they were in SAGA. Nothing at all.
New thread on mystics!
Originally posted by ferratus
However, consider the possibility that the moon gods can focus wild sorcery, without turning it into wizardry. If not, why not?
We already know that sorcery and wizardry are not two sources for the same way of casting spells. I cannot stress that enough.
You seem to be agreeing with me, here.
The Gods of Magic remove the taint of Chaos that is present in wild magic in order that wizards may use it. They don't send it back as wild magic, since that's precisely what wild magic is and why it works the way it does - because of Chaos. Removing the Chaos makes it work like wizard magic.
In game terms, spontaneous arcane magic = wild magic. Prepared arcane magic = wizard magic or high sorcery.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
You seem to be agreeing with me, here.
You seem to be missing my entire point. Wizardry in Dragonlance is the traditional Vancian method. Memorize and prepare rituals, forget and reprepare them.
Sorcerers are not Vancian sorcerers. They feel out magic and shape it as they wish. The D&D 3e sorcerer reflects this.
Now, if you alter the sorcerer with the WoHS prestige class.... you have a "focused" wild sorcerer.
Originally posted by ferratus
Now, if you alter the sorcerer with the WoHS prestige class.... you have a "focused" wild sorcerer.
You mean if you ignore the requirement that they be able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells, and pass the Test of High Sorcery?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Now, if you alter the sorcerer with the WoHS prestige class.... you have a "focused" wild sorcerer.
I don't think that is a good term for them.
I don't see them as a "focused" wild sorcerer. I see them as a magic user that weilds two different types of magic, Focused and Ambient arcane energy. But not a Focused Ambient arcane energy? I think only the Gods of Magic have the power to focus the Ambient arcane energy. Just like the other gods are the only ones who can focus Ambient faith energy.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
You mean if you ignore the requirement that they be able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells, and pass the Test of High Sorcery?
Cheers,
Cam
You bet. It was a rule to keep the prestige class to one specific class, which pretty much breaks with D20 system on that regard.
My entire point of this thread was that you didn't need to go that way. Frankly, dragonlance is not the same 16 year old nubile girl she one was back in the days of the original modules.
People have to let go and let her be her own woman, and let her tell the stories she wants to tell. The rules have changed, the world has changed. The only thing that refuses to change are the older fans themselves. If you are doing everything you can to shove her back into her prom dress... she ain't gonna look too pretty.
Originally posted by Brimstone
But not a Focused Ambient arcane energy? I think only the Gods of Magic have the power to focus the Ambient arcane energy. Just like the other gods are the only ones who can focus Ambient faith energy.
Ah, but why do the gods of magic have to focus magic in a Vancian manner?
They realize how dangerous wild sorcery is, so they lock magic up in rituals, whose lore is doled out only by the Towers of High Sorcery. Eventually, people forget how to shape magic themselves as wild sorcery wanes.
Then the 5th Age happens, the age of mortals. People realize how to shape magic again. After a conflict, the gods of magic realize that they cannot lock it back up again. So they agree to compromise by agreeing to focus the magic of those who feel and shape magic (wizards), rather than those who just prepare it (sorcerers).
Clear as mud?
Originally posted by ferratus
Then the 5th Age happens, the age of mortals. People realize how to shape magic again. After a conflict, the gods of magic realize that they cannot lock it back up again.
Okay...so your suggesting that it's not the gods that focus the magic and give it back to the mortals, but it's the proceedures themselves (the memorizing, the chants, the words, gestures, and materials) that focus the magic?
I could buy that. So long as the same didn't hold true for Clerics. That's a whole different ball of wax. We KNOW that the gods can choose to stop answering the clerics prayers, effectively stripping them of their magic, where as that's not necessarily a proven fact when it comes to High Sorcery.
I could see that though...the 3 Magic Gods are quite different from their parents. I could see them actually "teaching" the mortals how to do it (back when the WoHS were first created) and then sending them off. Where as the other gods just give the magic when asked for...but the Clerics really have no idea how it works...they're just a conduit, so to speak.
Um...it's like the difference in that old biblical saying, "Give a man a fish [Gods] he eats for a day, teach a man to fish [Gods of Magic] and he eats for a lifetime." Hmm?
Originally posted by Brimstone
Okay...so your suggesting that it's not the gods that focus the magic and give it back to the mortals, but it's the proceedures themselves (the memorizing, the chants, the words, gestures, and materials) that focus the magic?
No, no, no. The complete opposite to what you are saying.
(I must need better grammar).
What I mean is that the methods the mortals use is not dependant on focusing magic. The gods focus it, and that both types of spellcasters can choose to tap into the source of "focused magic" if the gods choose to start allowing it.
Luckily, I don't need Sovereign Press' approval for such a storyline. All I need is the approval of Lunitari, Solinari, and Nuitari. Go far into the future... and the minds will change eventually.
Originally posted by ferratus
I know that Sovereign Press is the lawful husband of the lady known as Dragonlance. However, she seems to be telling me secrets when she is my lover that she isn't telling you. She isn't going to wear the rags of 2e and SAGA anymore. She's changed, she's different than the girl you married. She's wilder, more liberated, less easily contained. The mystics for example, are nothing anymore like they were in SAGA. Nothing at all.
That is a very...unique way of phrasing things.
You bet. It was a rule to keep the prestige class to one specific class, which pretty much breaks with D20 system on that regard.
This is more of a common practice than what you think. I've seen it in numerous d20 books.
On the multi-classing issue, there's a couple of things one could do if they didn't want to follow the restrictions between focused and ambient magic.
Option#1 - One can be both a focused and ambient magic-user, so long as the focused class is the highest level.
Option #2 - Drop the restriction altogether.
As for sorcerers in the WoHS...
I don't really see a problem with having one use the sorcerer class with the WoHS if they take their magic from the moons. This is a good option for 4th age campaigns. I can see having sorcerers join the WoHS with the idea of creating a 4th order, or suborders for the three robes. However, I don't like the idea of the moon gods affecting ambient wild sorcery. When they do, the end result is high sorcery anyway.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Brim, put the Book of Erotic Fantasy down... ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I don't really see a problem with having one use the sorcerer class with the WoHS if they take their magic from the moons. This is a good option for 4th age campaigns. I can see having sorcerers join the WoHS with the idea of creating a 4th order, or suborders for the three robes. However, I don't like the idea of the moon gods affecting ambient wild sorcery. When they do, the end result is high sorcery anyway.
It doesn't have to be. All that is required is that the moon gods realize that they may have to trust mortals a little more, and put more of their fate into their own hands. Remove the taint of chaos, but leave them to cast magic the way they choose.
Age of Mortals man, Age of Mortals.
Originally posted by ferratus
All that is required is that the moon gods realize that they may have to trust mortals a little more, and put more of their fate into their own hands.
But that's what I said. The Moon gods don't control or focus the arcane energies. They taught the mortals how to do it (ie. Wizards of High Sorcery is born). Which is why Renegades can be wizards too...and not just Sorcerers. The Moon Gods don't control the flow, so they can't stop a Renegade from using High Sorcery.
I think this works well for wizards. But I do not think this works well for clerics at all. It's a different beast, altogether.
:invasion::
"It's a different beast."
Originally posted by Brimstone
I think this works well for wizards. But I do not think this works well for clerics at all. It's a different beast, altogether.
Oh agreed. But then, there isn't a prestige class that is used to replace the cleric class at higher levels. ;)
As for the wizard spellcasting method, I don't think it is the case that the magic is sourced at the spellular level. You don't focus the magic as you cast it. I think that there is a pool of magic out there that you can draw upon. I see spells as the keys to which you unlock the door into which the moon gods have locked the magic up.
But in your scenerio, if we do focus magic at the spellular level, then that means that renegade wizards, who are not focused by the moons, cast spells as wizards using ambient sorcery. But if that is true, they should be able to cast magic after the Chaos War. Dang, that won't work. I was hoping it would when I was typing it out. It was kind of cool.
So there has to be a chaos-free pool somewhere. Of course, after the 5th Age...
Originally posted by ferratus
So there has to be a chaos-free pool somewhere. Of course, after the 5th Age...
Damn...I didn't think about that...
You're right...if it is the wizard that focused the magic...then High Sorcery would still have worked in the 5th Age.
Okay...so that means that the Moon Gods have to be more involved with the focused arcane energies than just the "teachers."
But, the key idea could work. There's a "chaos-free pool" of arcane energies as you said...and the way for wizards (all wizards, including Renegades and Wizards of High Sorcery) all tap this pool. And they way they do that are with the "keys" taught to them by the Moon Gods (words, gestures, and materials). Then...when the gods are gone, and the pool is gone, in the first part of the 5th Age...the keys are useless.
Alright...we've spun around so much here...I've actually lost sight as to what we were debating. LOL! Ah well...that happens. Did we figure anything out? That's the real question.
YOU
HAVE
BEEN
WARNED.
----------------------------------------------------
It began when Soli/Luni/Nui (SLN) taught their apprentices (the 3 elves) how to shape wild sorcery, thus bringing magic into the world. SLN are "banished" at the end of the First Dragonwar, and they determine that wild sorcery is currently too powerful for mortals to safely wield. They "filter" wild sorcery into high sorcery, and teach this new magic to their apprentices.
EXAMPLE (beach analogy): SLN say, "This sand is too dangerous. We'll help." They pick up handfuls of sand and let it run over people, while SLN keep the rocks/glass/shells/etc for themselves.
END RESULT: Wild sorcery fades into obscurity because no one teaches it, until it is only practiced by inherently magical creatures (dragons, Irda).
Millenia later, the Chaos war happens. The gods are gone, as is the "filter" of wild sorcery. Takhisis needs more power, so when she is strong enough (28 SC), the Shadow Sorcerer teaches wild sorcery to Dalamar & Palin.
EXAMPLE: SLN are gone. Takhisis says, "Look, guys. Sand."
END RESULT: Wild sorcery is rediscovered.
In 41 SC, the gods return. SLN reinstate high sorcery.
EXAMPLE: SLN say, "Oh, nuts! They found the sand!"
END RESULT: Both types of magic exist.
----------------------------------------------------
Ferratus, I take your main question to be: Why can't a bard/sorcerer join the Wizards of High Sorcery? My answer is that they can... but they won't reap the benefits of the WoHS prestige class unless they embrace high sorcery (and meet the other requirements). Unlike core classes, PrCs can be (and often are) class-specific. In the DMG, a wizard simply can't become a Dragon Disciple.
What we're also discussing seems to be the idea of a third arcane magic, i.e. a new way of filtering wild sorcery that makes it different from High Sorcery. Honestly, introducing a fifth kind of magic seems ridiculous.
Edited: A bad sand analogy.
Originally posted by Eidolon
Ferratus, I take your main question to be: Why can't a bard/sorcerer join the Wizards of High Sorcery? My answer is that they can... but they won't reap the benefits of the WoHS prestige class unless they embrace high sorcery (and meet the other requirements). Unlike core classes, PrCs can be (and often are) class-specific. In the DMG, a wizard simply can't become a Dragon Disciple.
Exactly so. Requirements can be worded in such a way as to exclude certain classes from meeting those requirements. The Legion Scout, Legion Sorcerer and Legion Mystic (from the AoM) all require a class ability that only the Steel Legionnaire (from the DLCS) gains at 1st level. The Steel Legionnaire therefore becomes a gateway class for the other three. The Knights of Solamnia work similarly, and the Wizard of High Sorcery uses arcane spellcasters who prepare their spells as the gateway class.
Cheers,
Cam
So I'm going to broaden it out in my campaign. What if, Eidolon, sorcerers could use their own force of will to shape focused magic (the beach sand without the sharp bits) into spells? I know that wizards use ritualistic magic for the same, but what if you could use sorcery as well?
I think it would make a good variant rule for the magic book coming out in January. Just for those players that want to play a sorcerer, but wouldn't mind being in the WoHS. The prestige class works just as well in terms of modifying sorcerer spells as it does in modifying wizard spells.
Originally posted by ferratus
Oh, I know what you did. You made the WoHS useless except for wizards. There is a reason that is frowned on btw. If a prestige class is only available to one class (in this case wizards) then it lacks flavour. I mean, the new powers are cool, but this is just an alternate wizard. You could fullfill the same role in the campaign setting simply by using the wizard base class.
The WoHS PrC is full of flavorful elements. I think the word you're looking for is "lacks broader application", which is the general idea. The design goal was to capture the nature of the older game material, reflect the exclusive nature of wizards in the campaign, and provide some Order-specific abilities in a prestige class structure. I think it worked out pretty near perfectly.
We did the same thing later in the Age of Mortals book - the Citadel Mystic and Legion Mystic PrCs can only be taken by mystics because of the "divine spells without preparation" requirement, for example. These PrCs are refinements of existing classes that focus the baseline class into something exclusive, and this isn't frowned upon at all. WotC, you may note, not only approved of the Wizard of High Sorcery PrC, but are the same people who use "+2d6 sneak attack" or "ability to cast lesser planar ally" or "ability to cast 2nd-level spells without preparation" as requirements for their own PrCs.
Flavor was precisely the reason these PrCs were created in the first place.
So I'm going to broaden it out in my campaign. What if, Eidolon, sorcerers could use their own force of will to shape focused magic (the beach sand without the sharp bits) into spells? I know that wizards use ritualistic magic for the same, but what if you could use sorcery as well?
I think it would make a good variant rule for the magic book coming out in January. Just for those players that want to play a sorcerer, but wouldn't mind being in the WoHS. The prestige class works just as well in terms of modifying sorcerer spells as it does in modifying wizard spells.
The way to go about this and still qualify for the WoHS is to allow access to the Arcane Preparation feat, from Tome & Blood. If you aren't familiar with this, it allows spellcasters who normally cast spells without preparation to prepare them in advance just as a wizard does, allowing them to benefit from metamagic feats and not lose casting time. This also makes them qualify for the WoHS spellcasting requirement.
Now, this still doesn't explain what this is - I won't necessarily buy that a mortal can focus magic for themselves without great power and skill, but I will accept that a sorcerer can learn to draw in the magic of the moons to power his spells. You could allow a sorcerer who takes the Arcane Preparation feat to specialize at that point - make him unable to prepare spells of two schools but gain a free prepared spell of that school per day - but that could be something of an unbalancing option unless it, too, was a feat.
This sorcerer then goes to the wizards, says "look, I'm a wizard, see" and casts a few spells to demonstrate. They make him take the Test, he presumably passes, and is allowed into the Orders. Of course, if they catch him using wild magic he'll be in a lot of trouble. Whether the moons will affect him is also unclear - he hasn't made that soul-level commitment to the gods of magic, or he'd have undergone an epiphany as described in the DLCS and be a wizard. So, he's probably a resourceful and clever renegade masquerading as the real thing. Not very safe, but doable.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Oh, I know what you did. You made the WoHS useless except for wizards.
Uh...dude? These are the Wizards of High Sorcery here. They only allow in wizards.I would recommend that you do some research on this issue, to see how many prestige classes are out there that require you to have one specific class as a prerequisite. I can think of a few right now that require a babarian's rage ability, or a rogue's sneak attack.
There is a reason that is frowned on btw. If a prestige class is only available to one class (in this case wizards) then it lacks flavour. I mean, the new powers are cool, but this is just an alternate wizard. You could fullfill the same role in the campaign setting simply by using the wizard base class.
Yes, you could fill the role of a WoHS by using the base wizard class. If you're more comfortable doing that, then go ahead.
Secondly, prestige classes serve many roles. They can show membership in an organization, show specialized training, be the type of PrC that allows you to transform into something else, etc. etc. In this case, it shows both organizational membership and specialized training, and it happens to be for a group of wizards.
Third, let's discuss flavor. Flavor can be determined by many things, including flavor text and class abilities. You say a prestige class lacks flavor if it is limited to having one class join, rather than multiple classes. I say that actually gives it more flavor. Sometimes, limiting factors can add in more flavor.
Besides, you can always use arcane spellcasting classes that prepare spells from other sources, if you so wish.
So I'm going to broaden it out in my campaign. What if, Eidolon, sorcerers could use their own force of will to shape focused magic (the beach sand without the sharp bits) into spells? I know that wizards use ritualistic magic for the same, but what if you could use sorcery as well?
I think it would make a good variant rule for the magic book coming out in January. Just for those players that want to play a sorcerer, but wouldn't mind being in the WoHS. The prestige class works just as well in terms of modifying sorcerer spells as it does in modifying wizard spells.
Honestly, Terry, it sounds like you're just mad because the WoHS don't allow in sorcerers and bards. If you don't like that, you don't have to come up with any sort of complex explanation to allow in sorcerers and bards. Just say that they take their magic from the moons, like wizards do, and don't require you to prepare spells. I'm sure you wouldn't be alone in doing that.
Just remember, the only difference mechanically between Wild Sorcery and High Sorcery is where the magic comes from. Both types of magic are arcane magic in nature.
Anyway, if you don't like how the designers did the WoHS, that's your choice and you're welcome to change it however you want. Just don't say that the designers did a poor job, just because you don't agree with the design philosophy.
According to the DLCS (and probably due to WotC adamnet "NO restriction on multi-classing") the Wizard of High Sorcery Prestige Class does not make the destinction between Sorcerer and Wizard (or even Bard for that matter). All it says is (paraphrased), "At each level add one level to your existing arcane spell casting level. If you have more than one type of arcane spell casting class, you must choose one at 1st Level of WoHS to add too, and you must continue adding to that class."
So it sounds like to me a Sorcerer could join the ranks of the WoHS. Not only that...but their levels in the WoHS PrC don't even have to be Wizard levels.
Of course I disagree with this...and it kind of negates the whole purpose of the Order, IMO, to allow the wizard to continue in his Sorcerous levels. But it does "mature DL into modern times" or what not.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Tobin, look at the requirements. Must be able to prepare spells, and must be specialists. Both of which are the domain of the wizard.
He's just pointing out that the text and the requirements kind of contradict themselves. It's kinda like how the Dragon Disciple gains bonus spells as if having a high ability score, but in the requirements it says you need to be able to cast spells spontaneously, so why didn't they just put "from having a high Charisma score" as the only two spontaneous casters use that ability score. The hierophant doesn't even specify if it's caster level increase applies only to divine spellcasters.
WotC tends to make quite a few of these oversights. I also find it funny that the Red Wizard of Thay seems to have the same oversight as the Wizard of High Sorcery.
To respond to Ferratus:
So I'm going to broaden it out in my campaign. What if, Eidolon, sorcerers could use their own force of will to shape focused magic (the beach sand without the sharp bits) into spells? I know that wizards use ritualistic magic for the same, but what if you could use sorcery as well?
I think this could make a good campaign or plot twist for the impending WoHS / sorcerer "war". However, it did take 3 gods to "filter" wild sorcery into High Sorcery, so it's reasonable to assume that sorcerers would need some hefty magical assistance to even attempt the same thing.
I think that's just assumed at times with the requirement, but one might get confused. *shrugs*
Originally posted by Daedavias
He's just pointing out that the text and the requirements kind of contradict themselves. It's kinda like how the Dragon Disciple gains bonus spells as if having a high ability score, but in the requirements it says you need to be able to cast spells spontaneously, so why didn't they just put "from having a high Charisma score" as the only two spontaneous casters use that ability score. The hierophant doesn't even specify if it's caster level increase applies only to divine spellcasters.
This isn't contradictory, it's inclusive of the existing requirements. If I say that only Pennsylvania residents can vote in an election, and then ask them to write down their state of origin on the voting slip, I'm not contradicting my entry requirements.
It's entirely possible that somebody could come up with an arcane spellcasting class that prepares spells ahead of time and bases bonus spells on Charisma, Constitution, or even Dexterity. In such a case, the prestige class requirements are met and the rest of the text accomodates.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Tobin, look at the requirements. Must be able to prepare spells, and must be specialists. Both of which are the domain of the wizard.
That just means that you have to have a class of Wizard...that's all.
But, according to the rules of the PrC, you can add the new spell caster level to any arcane class...it does not specify. In fact it says you must choose which one.
Originally posted by Eidolon
In addition, an enterprising individual could go Wiz3/Sor1 before taking the Test, and use the WoHS caster levels to advance your sorcerer casting.
Exactly...that's exactly what I'm saying.
They left it open. Which is the right thing to do. Let the DM interpret it as they see fit, ya know?
Hell...that could even be Wiz3/Bard1/WotRR10, where you have 3 wizarding levels, and 11 Bardic levels...as far as spell casting goes.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Exactly...that's exactly what I'm saying.
They left it open. Which is the right thing to do. Let the DM interpret it as they see fit, ya know?
Hell...that could even be Wiz3/Bard1/WotRR10, where you have 3 wizarding levels, and 11 Bardic levels...as far as spell casting goes.
Ah, I see what you mean. Except, you can't have both sorcerer and wizard levels. Or rather, you aren't supposed to. Sigh. At this point, so long as the Conclave doesn't clue into you running about with wild magic, you're probably in the clear.
Maybe.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ah, I see what you mean. Except, you can't have both sorcerer and wizard levels. Or rather, you aren't supposed to. Sigh. At this point, so long as the Conclave doesn't clue into you running about with wild magic, you're probably in the clear.
Well...I think originally you weren't supposed to have both types of magic (this went for Mystics and Clerics too).
But I'm going through the book right now with a fine tooth comb, making an errata for it...and it seems that has been edited out, cause there is no mention anywhere (at least in the DLCS) that you can't have both classes. Which would kind of go against 3e anyway, wouldn't it?
Granted, I'm only on page 80-something...so it might still be mentioned later.
Originally posted by talinthas
page 97, changing focus.
Damn.
LOL! So close...couldn't keep my mouth shut though, could I? Oh no...never does...doesn't know when to shut up, that one.
:D
Well, what Daedavias still holds true.
For example I could have a Wiz 5/Bard 2/WoHS 1, and have the WoHS class levels add to my Bard levels. I would never let any of my players do it, but strictly interpreting the rules, it is possible.
It says you can change focus, not that you have to. =)
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well, what Daedavias still holds true.
...so I'm victorious?
Also, those with the AoM, could you look at classes like the Legion Mystic/Sorceror, does it have similar mishaps?
Quote by Cam Banks:
The WoHS PrC is full of flavorful elements. I think the word you're looking for is "lacks broader application", which is the general idea. The design goal was to capture the nature of the older game material, reflect the exclusive nature of wizards in the campaign, and provide some Order-specific abilities in a prestige class structure. I think it worked out pretty near perfectly.
Perhaps that is the phrase I'm looking for. I think it is also important to note that in trying to keep the old game material intact, that you don't end up inadvertantly shooting yourself in the foot when following the 2e or Saga game material too closely. It might, after all, end up having a completely different effect flavour-wise than the same rules had earlier, due to the context of 3e. I'll be talking about the Knights of Solamnia in another thread as well. Like the Mystics, they are now drastically different in flavour.
Sometimes, as well, no matter how hard you fight things, the inevitable happens and elements of the campaign world will change drastically in order to provide hegemony with the campaign world as a whole. After all, as this whole discussion proves, you have 200 eyes looking over this information now, and will interpret the information in ways that please them.
Quote by Dragonhelm:
Honestly, Terry, it sounds like you're just mad because the WoHS don't allow in sorcerers and bards. If you don't like that, you don't have to come up with any sort of complex explanation to allow in sorcerers and bards. Just say that they take their magic from the moons, like wizards do, and don't require you to prepare spells. I'm sure you wouldn't be alone in doing that.
Actually, I had no ideas about the matter until I saw it written up on the message board. I fully expected, like the Red Wizards of Thay prestige class, that it would be limited to wizards as much as possible. I'm just tossing the idea out there about including sorcerers and bards, and why I would want to do so.
As for complex explaination, I thought it was very simple. I mean, I've been saying all along that there is nothing preventing sorcerers and bards using from the moons to cast spells, using the techniques they use on ambient magic. Thus, I have been saying that "they take their magic from the moons, like wizards do, and don't require you to prepare spells." Either I'm really bad at explaining myself, or else my mind is so good at thinking outside the box that it takes awhile for people to adjust and understand.
If the gods allow it, the requirements for entering the prestige class will change to include sorcerers and bards. It is all about who Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari want in their ranks. As soon as they allow sorcerers to enter, the "must prepare spells" will no longer be a requirement. Since I like the resulting adventure seeds, I'm going to pursue that route.
The real reason we are having this discussion is whether or not the story idea is cohesive with the overall campaign. I think I've shown that it is. After all, to repeat myself, it all depends on the whim of the three moon gods.
The reason I suggested a variant rule, well that's the point of variant rules. To shake up the flavour a little bit.
Quote by Eidolon:
I think this could make a good campaign or plot twist for the impending WoHS / sorcerer "war". However, it did take 3 gods to "filter" wild sorcery into High Sorcery, so it's reasonable to assume that sorcerers would need some hefty magical assistance to even attempt the same thing.
Yes, the intervention of the three moon gods, just as they do for wizards.
Originally posted by Daedavias
...so I'm victorious?
Not necessarily...
I meant you were correct about what I was trying to say in my post.