So I'd like to hear people's thoughts on making the genasi better. I'm more inclined to beef them up to an LA +1, so give me your thoughts on ways to make them more attractive.
Earth Genasi: DR 2/Adamantine. They are tough.
Fire Genasi: Skin of Fire : Once per day Fire Genasi can make his skin burn for 1 round per ? levels. Someone that hit F. G. with bare hands receives 1d4 fire damage. Someone who is grappling with F. G. receives 1d8 damage per round. F.G. is immune to fire for duration of Skin of Fire.
Fire Genasi - Fire
Earth Gensai - Acid
Air Gensai - Electricty (Sonic?)
Water Genasi - Cold
It's a fairly useful ability, especially in combination with their racial bonus to saving throws though I'd be inclined to modify the air, earth and water genasi's racial bonus to match or include their element. After all, how many air, earth or water spells are there that affect individuals directly?
Earth Genasi: Give them +2 natural AC, add Paladin to favored class list, take away the level adjustment
Fire Genasi: Add "Sorcerer" to their favored class list, drop the charisma penalty to -1, take away the level adjustment.
Water Genasi: Add +2 racial bonus to swim checks, +1 to move silently, +2 to hide checks, change favored class to: "Pick one: Wizard, Cleric, or Rogue", take away level adjustment.
Earth=Paladin
Fire=Sorcerer
Water=Bard
Air=Wizard
Just my preferences...
Originally posted by primemover003
Leave them at LA +1, but give them energy resistance 10 to their respective energy type (Fire/Cold/Acid/Electricity) instead of the save bonuses. Earth +2 natural AC. Change their favored class back to the Planescape ideals not all fighter :p
Earth=Paladin
Fire=Sorcerer
Water=Bard
Air=Wizard
Just my preferences...
I agree with all of the above except:
1) I would also remove Breathless from the air genasi. It doesn't make much sense to me either, besides which the air genasi already have the most powerful spell-like ability.
2) You might consider changing their spell-like abilities to make them more equivalent to one another, for example:
Earth=Soften Earth and Stone
Air=Whispering Wind*
Fire=Produce Flame
Water=Create Water**
*Levitate is the same level, but I think Whispering Wind captures the flavor better.
**I left the water genasi's spell-like ability as is because I can't find a more appropriate one at the right level, and they already have two extra abilities that are quite useful (a swim speed and water breathing).
3) The favored classes you listed favor air genasi since their spells depend on Int, which they get a bonus to, while the other three depend on Cha, which they get a penalty to. I would suggest changing their favored class to cleric so they're all at an equal disadvantage. OTOH, if you want to play to their strengths, here are some alternative ideas for favored classes:
Earth=Fighter
Air=Rogue
Fire=Wizard
Water=Druid
Wyvern
I would never take breathless away from air genasi simply because its an important aspect of their character, AND its useful and makes sense.
After all, water genasi is worst than a dwarf, and the others are not so different. Be at ease
I think the only possibility is to bring them down to ecl: +0, because little cute things like breathless don't really have that much effect.
I think the only possibility is to bring them down to ecl: +0, because little cute things like breathless don't really have that much effect.
Air Genasi
• +2 Dexterity, + 2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
• Lightning Resistance 5.
• Gust of Wind (Sp): Air genasi can use gust of wind once per day as cast by a 5th-level druid.
• Breathless (Ex): Air genasi do not breathe, so they are immune to drowning, suffocation, and attacks that require inhalation (such as some types of poison).
Earth Genasi
• +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
• Acid Resistance 5
• Soften Earth and Stone (Sp): Earth genasi can use soften earth and stone once per day as cast by a 5th-level druid.
• Stone Cunning
• Stability
• Natural Armor +2.
Fire Genasi
• +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
• Fire Resistance 5.
• Produce Flame (Sp): Fire genasi can use produce flame once per day as cast by a 5th-level druid.
• Burn(Ex): As a free action after making a touch attack the fire genasi may force the target to make a Reflex save (DC 11 + Con) or catch on fire for 1d4 rounds.
Water Genasi
• +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
• Cold Resistance 5.
• Fog Cloud (Sp): Water genasi can use fog cloud once per day as cast by a 5th-level druid.
• Drench (Ex): The water genasi's touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin, if these are of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic cast by a druid whose level equals the water genasi's character level.
• Water genasi breathe water as an extraordinary ability.
Originally posted by moogle001
My initial thoughts are:
Looks great! Just a couple of minor quibbles:
- I think the fire genasi's Burn ability might be a tad overpowered, especially since they already have the most useful of the energy resistances. Make it a regular unarmed attack instead of a touch attack, and I think it'll be alright. If you think that nerfs them too much, you could add back in the Control Flame ability from the official rules.
- I agree with Furious George; water genasi definitely need a bonus to Swim checks, and possibly a swim speed.
So what about favored classes? And are you keeping the "Clerical Focus" rule?
Wyvern
Originally posted by Kalidor187
I've also noticed the abundance of Charisma penalties. A Charisma penalty seems to discourage any genasi from taking the sorcerer class, which seems to suit their lineage. As was pointed out earlier, earth genasi were allowed to take a paladin equivalent class in 2e. The Charisma penalty would seem to discourage this as well. Why not just drop the stat penalties and leave them at LA +1? This would be about equal in ability to an aasimar, which also does not incur any stat penalties.
What sorcerer lineage? What paladin equivalent class???
As is, the stats level out to be around what you would expect for a LA+1 creature. The Charisma penalty stems from the arrogance/awkwardness of most planetouched. It was like this in 2E, its the stats WotC has used, and while we are fine with changing things to the better, it doesn't seem like a necessary change to me.
The old cosmology is the same--though frankly I generally stay away from a lot of those weird elemental planes.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
I fancy somewhere, nicer. Sunnier. Perhaps with a beach house.
TBH I still stand by my opinion of adding a high enough level of element immunity so that Genasi are immune to most, if not all, natural occurances of the element (this appears to be 10 for most things). It has the advantage of being almost identical to WoTC material (which is your rational for not dropping the ECL to 0) and means that players bringing in characters say from the FR won't suddenly have extremely different powers and abilities.
The stat mods are roughly equivalent to what you'd get from a tiefling, they have a spell-like ability (none of which are useless, mind you), and they all have a useful if not powerful "special".I don't honestly see Burn as all that powerful...its basically a claw attack, except it allows a save, and targets can prevent sucessive damage. But if people have ideas on how to fix it, I'm open to suggestions.
Originally posted by moogle001
What sorcerer lineage? What paladin equivalent class???
Well IIRC, the Planewalker's Handbook said that earth genasi could become paladins (real paladins, not just an equivalent). As for the sorcerous lineage, I think that's just based on the assumption that outsider blood gives you magical talent (which is borne out by their spell-like abilities). However, I'm completely in agreement with you regarding their Charisma penalties.
I don't honestly see Burn as all that powerful...its basically a claw attack, except it allows a save, and targets can prevent sucessive damage.
Er... no. Touch attack != claw attack. Incidentally, your description doesn't say anything about being able to make Reflex saves to put the fire out, although that is part of the standard rules. You might want to clarify that; as it's written now it looks as if they burn for 1d4 rounds and there's nothing they can do about it.
But if people have ideas on how to fix it, I'm open to suggestions.
I already suggested making it an unarmed attack; didn't you read my post? You haven't answered my question about favored classes either. I gave two different sets of suggestions previously; one that plays to their strengths and one that plays against them. Did you like either of those? Or are you sticking with fighter for all of them?
Wyvern
I am glad to hear that you're keeping the quasi-elemental planes. I remember reading a good artical on Ash and Dust on the Mimir site.
Originally posted by Lord of the Ninth
Ability scores might be on par with a tiefer, as are most of the spell-like abilities, but tiefers also have skill bonuses and they have energy resistance 5 to fire, cold and electricity. Genasi just have those useless save bonuses, what they need is elemental resistance, maybe not 10 (although it'd be nice), but at least 5.
He has a point. Genasi ought to have energy resistance 10.
Wyvern
Originally posted by Wyvern76
Well IIRC, the Planewalker's Handbook said that earth genasi could become paladins (real paladins, not just an equivalent). As for the sorcerous lineage, I think that's just based on the assumption that outsider blood gives you magical talent (which is borne out by their spell-like abilities). However, I'm completely in agreement with you regarding their Charisma penalties.
Er... no. Touch attack != claw attack. Incidentally, your description doesn't say anything about being able to make Reflex saves to put the fire out, although that is part of the standard rules. You might want to clarify that; as it's written now it looks as if they burn for 1d4 rounds and there's nothing they can do about it.
I already suggested making it an unarmed attack; didn't you read my post? You haven't answered my question about favored classes either. I gave two different sets of suggestions previously; one that plays to their strengths and one that plays against them. Did you like either of those? Or are you sticking with fighter for all of them?
Wyvern
The Character Chapter already changed the genasi favored classes to about what you specified Wyrven. I think they're appropriate.
And I meant the fire was equivalent to a claw attack based on how much damage it could deal (except, of course, without the STR modifier). And the description says they must make a Reflex save or catch fire. Not sure whats unclear about that.
Originally posted by moogle001
And I meant the fire was equivalent to a claw attack based on how much damage it could deal (except, of course, without the STR modifier). And the description says they must make a Reflex save or catch fire. Not sure whats unclear about that.
The unclear part is that it sounds like they catch on fire and have no chance of putting it out (which you obviously don't mean).
Originally posted by Beleriphon
The unclear part is that it sounds like they catch on fire and have no chance of putting it out (which you obviously don't mean).
Ah..yes, I didn't fully describe this, for the same reason I didn't include the water genasi's swim speed or their favored class. It was just a rough over view to get the ideas behind each race.
It sounds like people think resistance 5 is enough. While I understand this, there is a big difference between 5 and 10, even if its only a single stat, as it can be the difference between a tiny bit or no damage. Having one high resistance is better that having several small ones. But, I still leave it up to you.
It sounds like people think resistance 5 is enough. While I understand this, there is a big difference between 5 and 10, even if its only a single stat, as it can be the difference between a tiny bit or no damage. Having one high resistance is better that having several small ones. But, I still leave it up to you.
Perhaps an alternative would be to simply state that Genasi are immune to non-magical sources of elemental damage? So you can set a Fire Genasi alight and they'll just laugh, hit 'em with a Fireball and they better hope they make their save (to which they have a bonus anyway).
Still, if it's Elemental Resistance I'd set it at 10 so all Genasi are virtually immune to their respective element damages, it'd take a pretty strong acid to hurt an Earth Genasi.
i kinda see about letting like natural elements be ok, but if a dragon shot some bolts at me i hope that i would be safe from it just like the one in the thunder storm. and if i got killed it would be ok because i would come back as an astral deva
.Originally posted by moogle001
The Character Chapter already changed the genasi favored classes to about what you specified Wyrven.
:embarrass Somehow I overlooked that. It's uncanny that the classes listed in that chapter almost exactly match what I came up with independently. Great minds think alike, eh? ;)
Wyvern
Originally posted by moogle001
My initial thoughts are:
Air Genasi
Earth Genasi
Fire Genasi
Water Genasi
I like energy resistance 5, 10 would be too much.
I don't like all the Cha penalties.
Earth Genasi seems slightly overpowered compared to the rest. If you drop the +2 natural armor, it would even out, IMHO.
As for quasielemental genasi, am I correct in seeming to remember that there were no vacuum genasi for some mysterious, unknown reason? Maybe this was mephits, but I don't really remember.
While I'm at it, I agree with whoever it was who originally said it and the others who agree that water genasi should have a swim speed. I wouldn't object to water breathing, either. Some might say it's too powerful, but I think that: (a) water is the most often overlooked element anyway and (b) water breathing and a swim speed aren't thoughtless add-ons in this case, no race is more deserving of both those abilities than water genasi.
As for Moogle's writeup, I love it. I wouldn't change much besides what I mentioned already. Burn for fire genasi seems ok. To me, it seems that an ability like that isn't really that powerful, since, if it works like regular burning, you get a Reflex save every round to put it out, and if the DC is 11+Con modifier, the DC will almost certainly be lower than 15, the default DC for extinguishing flames. It's almost too weak. ALMOST. The only problem is, it's nice and flashy, and combined with the most useful energy resistance, people might be too attracted to fire above the other elements as it is. I'd hate for fire to be the cliche overabundant genasi race.
Anyone for feather fall over gust of wind for air genasi?
As to PS races not gaining more abilities as they advance, I believe that Githzerai and Githyanki both start with certain abilities and then gain others as they advance (this is more pronounced in their 3.5 stats). And of course half-fiends and half-celestials also gain more abilities as they level up. So it wouldn't be completely without precedent ('course I think only templates like fiendish or anarchic creature give scaling resistance scores, but that doesn't really matter).
I think that 2e lacked both Vacuum genasi and void mephits (as well as vacuum quasi-elementals).
Officially, yes, there were no vacuum genasi or void mephits. IIRC, there were "rumored to be creatures made of pure thought that lived in the plane of vacuum". Where that stands in your game is up to the DM. I've seen random people write up stats for void genasi though. I personally used (*ahem*) am using one as an NPC in my game. He's away at the moment but he'll be back. He doesn't breathe, sweat, or bleed much, and it never occured to the guy to need one of those "name" things.
I think they're a cool concept, but it's hard to justify even one being around.
Originally posted by moogle001
The Charisma penalty stems from the arrogance/awkwardness of most planetouched. It was like this in 2E, its the stats WotC has used, and while we are fine with changing things to the better, it doesn't seem like a necessary change to me.
I think arrogance/awkwardness should be handled through roleplaying, not through the charisma statistic.
Also, "Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. It represents actual personal strength, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting." (from PHB)
If you don't want to give genasi a bonus on Charisma (sice they are self-centered, self-rightous and must be strong-willed), at least remove the penalty.
This can be balanced by giving a penalty on Diplomacy checks, or stating that the personality of a genasi interfers with his social skills, thus applying the Charisma modifier as a penalty (instead as a bonus) to all social rolls.
Originally posted by Lord of the Ninth
As to PS races not gaining more abilities as they advance, I believe that Githzerai and Githyanki both start with certain abilities and then gain others as they advance (this is more pronounced in their 3.5 stats). And of course half-fiends and half-celestials also gain more abilities as they level up. So it wouldn't be completely without precedent ('course I think only templates like fiendish or anarchic creature give scaling resistance scores, but that doesn't really matter).
Githyanki gain the ability to plane shift once per day at 8th level, and githzerai gain it at 11th level. Both races also have power resistance of 5 + character level. Drow have spell resistance of 11 + character level.
Wyvern
I agree that Genasi should have energy resistance, absolutely. However, isn't a Genasi partially infused with an energy type? Does it make sense that creatures of part fire are as vulnerable to cold as others, or that creatures of water are resistant to cold (which freezes water) and vulnerable to fire (which water extinguishes)? Giving each Genasi race two energy resistances might be a bit overpowered, but don't Aasimar and Tieflings have three energy resistances?
I might suggest the following:
Fire Genasi: Fire Resistance 5, Cold Resistance 5
Earth Genasi: Acid Resistance 5, Lighting Resistance 5
Water Genasi: Fire Resistance 5, ??? Resistance 5
Air Genasi: Lightning Resistance 5, Fire/Cold? Resistance 5
Alternately we could make it so that all of them respond to elements as elements respond to each other. I think that might be too complicated though. Like Water Genasi are slowed by cold damage, Air Genasi can put out smaller fires as a free action, and on and on. Too complex. Elementals don't even have that extensive rules, even though it might add flavour and "realism". But it's a thought.
Originally posted by taotad
The Living Spell is a PrC that's based on Genasi's. If you could get the permit to use it by the designer (and Monte Cook) it would make a fine addition to your most brilliant tome...
Actually, I am the designer of the Living Spell (and Monte Cook doesn't own my class, he just picked it for the contest). :D If you wanted to contact me, go ahead and e-mail me.
Energy resistance...Maybe the genasi start with resistance 5 in their element and gain resistance every x number of levels. Do this instead of the saving throw bonus would probably make genasi more useful and would give them more reason to have +1 ECL...I mean, how many air spells are there that you really need to make a save against? And of those, how many are used frequently (unless Air Domain spells count as air)? How about start with resistance 5 and then +1 resistance level/2nd level/3rd level. That gives them energy reisistance 25, 14, and 11 at level 20 and, while that's not a whole lot, every little bit helps against creatures in that CR range.
Or, as someone already mentioned, start them with resistance 5 and give them a boost to resistance 10 somewhere between CL 5-10.
I like the idea that genasi should get a Sorcerer as a favored class. However, the established idea that the genasi are "holier-than-thou" because they have elemental blood kind of gives the Cha penalty some sense to it...
Spell-like abilities...Here are my thoughts:
Air: Levitate
Water: Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud
Earth: Soften Earth and Stone/Shatter
Fire: Pyrotechnics/Produce Flame
All of the above are 2nd level (except Obscuring Mist) and are ones that I've found quite useful. Depending on the resistance benefits and the balancing other abilities granted to the genasi, I think a 2nd level spell cast 1/day is a good addition to the ECL 1.
Should there be such a thing as Vacuum genasi (or vacuum mephits, for that matter)? The way I understand, the Plane of Vacuum is a plane of absolute nothing. Going off of that, I doubt there would be any indigenous life in an absolute nothing. Therefore, I don't think vacuum genasi are a very viable race.
They aren't a very viable race. Sometimes planetouched happen when the mother planehops too much when she's with child though. That's how the "vacuum genasi" in my game came to be. Don't tell that to my players though. It is cannon that there is the possibility of beings that live in the vacuum though, even though they may not have physical forms.
One other note about quasi-genasi and their resistances. Usually I see people want to give Ash genasi, for example, cold resistance, because ash represents the death of fire. What should really happen, though, is that ash genasi should have fire resistance. Because the elemental components within them are the undoing of fire, fire that touches them is (at least partially) destroyed without harming the genasi. Radiance genasi, on the other hand, would probably be less resistant to fire. Since they represent fire empowered with positive energy, fire that touches them would be enhanced. Ouch. I thought they were supposed to be arrogant, but that'll dampen their ego. On the other hand, maybe the idea is stupid.
P.S.: moogle, last I looked on planewalker.com, you guys didn't have an illustrator yet. If you still need one, I'd be interested. I can whip up a portfolio to show you if you want.
Originally posted by Zearoth
Well... certain bacteria and viruses are known to survive in the vacuum of space, so it is not like the area is devoid of life... even though those creatures are not much AD&D like... maybe a vacuum genasi is created by a pregnant female being infected by one such organism?
Statis perhaps, but no evidence they 'live' in any way such as growing or dividing.
The Egarus was a nice creation. A mold from the Abyss that had adapted itself to the empty space of the quasiplane by consuming 'nothingness' the very concept of the plane. When it came into contact with actual matter, it began to starve and defended itself by disintigrating the things around it to create space of nothingness for itself in a desperate attempt to survive. Fun fun.
I personally like the idea of an Vacuum genasi being both very rare, and the (hinted or suggested) results of a touch by one of the postulated and legendary creatures of the plane, said to have shed a physical form and existing as pure thought on the nothingness of the void of the quasiplane. I'd give them cold resistance to some small effect likely, and perhaps some spell like ability tied to entropy or the negative energy plane. (or a custom effect tied to vacuum or extinguishing, couple possible ideas there, but it's after 2am and I'm tired, so thats all my brain is coming up with at the moment.)
Undead supposedly do exist in Vacuum, but they exist only toward the boundary of the Negative Energy. Moreover, I sincerely doubt that undead are capable of parenting a child in the same fashion as the living.
A few planewalkers who have had experience as spelljammer crew members and have visited the Vacuum have recognized some strange, monstrous creatures. These creatures, they say, are similar to the monsters found in the "phlogiston." For more information regarding that, however, one would have to consult a spelljammer captain.
Suffice to say, vacuum genasi are very likely to occur. I do agree with the illustrious Shemeska that a vacuum (or void, as you prefer) genasi would be considerably more rare. However, vacuum quasielementals DO exist and are a possible, though unlikely, progenitor for such a race.
I imagine vacuum genasi would have cold resistance and their charisma penalty may be incurred more because of an inborn attitude of distance; a solitary nature induced by the plane they were born from rather than any arrogance that most other genasi possess.
Another possibility would be for the creatures of pure thought to take over a normal human body if the thoughts and will of the creature were weak enough. Who knows, maybe it would be just an accidental byproduct of the encounter; after all, how often are these thought beings encountered? Maybe the transformation is just as terrifying for them as it would be for someone who's personality they pushed out. Pardon me as I ramble, but an idea is forming inside my head as I type.
______________
Ecology of the thought beings from the plane of vacuum
When a thought being encounters a living, corporeal, sentient life form, it sometimes pushes the personality, thoughts, feelings, etc. out of that being taking over the body and forming a vacuum genasi. The physiology of the newly acquired body slowly shifts to that which is described, and at the same time the displaced thoughts slowly lose their previous memories. Now here's the tricky bit: the displaced thoughts are "pregnant" with another thought being now, and once they have lost all memory of their previous life, they give "birth" to that thought being.
_______________
This not only has the advantage of explaining where the rare vacuum genasi comes from, but it also allows for a reproductive cycle for the thought beings. It's just a thought, though.