Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 08, 2003 16:21:07	With the demise of Borys, Dregoth is now the most powerful being in the Tyr Region. So what is he going to do about it? Is he going to try to conquer the region? Is he going to build up Giustenal and make it a city-state and not worry about regional politics? Are the other sorcerer kings going to unite and try to stop him? Or is the undead dragon going to simply tax the other city-states and then he will carry on in New Giustenal? What do you think he will do?
#2 star_gazer_02 Aug 08, 2003 17:55:47	Forthcoming module: Dregoth Acending In it Dregoth rises up and attacks the Tyr region... he he he... as if the Tyr region didn't have enough to worry about w/ the 'Kreen invasion from the other side. Sounds like the end of civilization as we know it, especially with as many SK's dead as there are. There really aren't enough powerful people left on Athas to defend against both. You're going to have to wait till Athas can be integrated into the Epic Level Handbook though, and there are other, more important projects, like the DS3.5 conversion to do first.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 08, 2003 19:13:36	Thri-Kreen/Dregoth: One of the future rulers of Tyr was what I concluded too. What is comes down to, "Are the four remaining sorcerer-kings (Oronis will have to defend against Dregoth eventually) powerful enough to imprison or destroy Dregoth (They really should destroy him)"? As it suggests in the Wanderer's Chonicle, Dregoth seeks to conquer Raam (though, that might just be rumor) and use it as a base to conquer the rest of the Tyr region. However, since Dregoth seeks to become a true god, and a true god would realize that all empires fall, including his, then perhaps "Conquer", means to win their faith to him while not actually having to conquer the city by force. The Thri-Kreens: Crimson Savannah=Good, Tablelands=Bad compared to the Crimson Savannah, why would the Thri-Kreen want desert? There is a much better places to conquer, like the Hinterlands and the Forest Ridge. The Thri-Kreen will probably move into the halfling's forest and begin to make it theirs. I am sure the halflings will object to that. There is really nothing anyone can do about the Thri-Kreen, with their huge population. The only thing they could do is close the rift. So in the future, travelers in the forest ridge will have to worry about getting eaten by Halflings and Thri-Kreen. The Thri-Kreens will eventually move into the Tablelands in a few centuries or so. This will give the region a good reason to unite and who better to unite under then Dregoth if he as not been killed yet. Dregoth is the lesser of two evils. Be slaves to the alien Thri-Kreen or worship Dregoth and keep your freedom so to speak (Dregoth cannot be worse as any of the other sorcerer-kings?
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 09, 2003 0:58:05	First, thri-kreen don't fare very well in humid areas, as shown in the TkoA book, so the Forest Ridge is out of the question. And there's very little in the hinterlands to even try and conquer (being technically even more barren than the Tablalnds in general, with small plant life but almost no animals for a carnivorous race such as the thri-kreen). So the tablelands is the next best thing. Thri-kreen do quite well in a desert environment and are able to not merely survive, but thrive (perhaps the only race that is able to do well under the current conditions of Athas). Plus, they are an empire and although of a different mindset as humanoids, every empire seeks to expand and conquer. Since the thri-kreen normally do not see humanoids as intelligent (just inventive and industrious animals, much like we view ants and monkeys), they would see the tablelands as land up for grabs. Closing the rift would possibly solve the problem, but the rift is huge (much larger in description than the picture from the TkoA book showed). Your not likely to be able to seal it off permanently with just physical means. And what of the imperial kreen who have already made it through? Do they carry on the fight of the empire after they're cut off from the power of authority? Or do they slowly integrate themselves, adding even more to the strained Tablelands problem through increased population. As for Dergoth, I'll assume that at the culmination of Dergoth's Rising adventure he is either defeated or at least held at bay (either before or after conquering Raam, my preference is for after). His goal is not just to conquer and to become a god though. He sees humans as vermin at best and does not want their worship. As a god his creations, the dray, would be his followers, bent on suppression and killing off the other beings of the Tablelands and replacing them with his chosen. I doubt the Tablelands would be so lucky as to get off the hook with simple obedience to Dergoth the God. He wouldn't be winning the faith of the tablelands. He would already have won the faith of the dray.
#5 zombiegleemax Aug 09, 2003 20:06:27	Originally posted by Mach2.5 First, thri-kreen don't fare very well in humid areas, as shown in the TkoA book That does not make sense. The Crimson Savannah is a vast green verdant belt. It has a swamp and rivers. It should be the most humid place on Athas, except for right over the Last Sea. The Crimson Savannah is so humid that the moisture that is evaporated that blows down wind is enough to quench the thrust of the Forest Ridge! Generally all insects love humidity. They thrive in it. However, their small size and exoskeleton conserves water, making them perfect for the desert. The Hinter Lands may have few settlements, but it is a vast scrub plains the size of the Tablelands. The Hinterlands should be full of wild creatures and such that feed on the shrubs there. It is not exactly barren. I can see Dregoth enslaving all of humanity (and all of demi-humanity) to serve his drays, with the slaves having the same rights as cattle (oops, I mean kanks).
#6 zombiegleemax Aug 10, 2003 1:16:31	That does not make sense. The Crimson Savannah is a vast green verdant belt. It has a swamp and rivers And the thri-kreen avoid the Kano swamp as well. To give further examples, the thri-kreen word for hell is kano (it also means cold so I would imagine the Kano swamp to be a chilly place). Also, Savannah's are not humid places. They are very dry. The Crimson Savannah is so dry in fact (barring the swamp itself) that the grasslands catch fire spontaneously during extreme heat several times during the seasons, killing anything that happens to be in the path of the flash fire (including even thri-kreen). Sorry, but the Crimson Savannah doesn't sound much like a vast verdant belt, although it is colored as a grassland on the large DS 2e map. The red dust of the savannah's floor is what gives the area its name. Obviously though, since it also describes mud sinks on occasion, the watertable of the Crimson Savannah is reletively close to the surface, which would also allow for the Kano Swamp if the land there were to sink below the water table over time. It also rains more in this region, but since it also describes the red dust as 'a cloud' hanging low, I would imagine that the area is still fairly dry, with the rain seeping into the soil quickly or evaporating within a day. Generally all insects love humidity. Generally, all insect love heat, not neccesarily humidity. The hotter a region is, the more insect life you will find in proportion to the rest of the life in the region. Swamps and jungles tend to have a vast array of life in general, with insects making up a large percentage of the total species in the region. The same though holds true for deserts however. Insects still make up the same percentage of species in a dry and hot region. I can see Dregoth enslaving all of humanity (and all of demi-humanity) to serve his drays I could see a rational and evil tyrant doing just this. But Dergoth doesn't seem very rational. He seems a bit . . . touched. I can't see him doing the logical and intelligent thing in the long run, which would probably be his own undoing.
#7 zombiegleemax Aug 11, 2003 13:58:54	From the description in the Wanderer's Chronicle, the Crimson Savannah has regular thunderstorms, then enough time for an it to dry out a little before the next one comes. However, the grass in the savannah is 8' tall. That is a serious amount of growth whereas the grass in the African Savannah is not even half that. Also, there has to be a vast amount of moisture moving through the Savannah if the Forest Ridge is as humid and moist as the Wanderer said it was. I have been in a rain-shadow forest in an arid region. The trees are small, the grass is dead and everything is dry. There is no sounds of running water anywhere. For the Forest Ridge to be a humid jungle, there has to be regular rains that condense from the mountains altitude. This moisture has to blow over or come from the Crimson Savannah, which means the savannah has to be a wet savannah. Kano swamp cannot really be that chilly. The heat from the surrounding savannah would heat up the swamp. Large bodies of water retain their heat at night and slightly cool the the surrounded area. It may be only 5 degrees cooler near the swamp. Once the Sorcerer Kings learn of Dregoth and his intentions, they will have to unite and try to stop him. That is if Dregoth whats to conquer Raam and enslave the whole region. Maybe they can work a special deal with Dregoth like they did with Borys and continue on. The Thri-Kreen won't be there for at least a few decades. The logistics of moving an army great enough to conquer a city-state or a region is incredible. The Thri-Kreen have to establish supply bases along their invasion route (which then can be attacked by the SKs). Going through or around the Ringing Mountains is not impossible, but it is very difficult and full of risks. If the Thri-Kreen fail or make a mistake, they will lose their entire army in the desert, which may or may not bother them too much, but it would leave them open to attack. Either way, it will be a while before they come. They will probably miss the conclusion to the Sorcerer Kings vs. Dregoth.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 11, 2003 14:20:03	Originally posted by Ral of Tyr From the description in the Wanderer's Chronicle, the Crimson Savannah has regular thunderstorms, then enough time for an it to dry out a little before the next one comes. However, the grass in the savannah is 8' tall. That is a serious amount of growth whereas the grass in the African Savannah is not even half that. Also, there has to be a vast amount of moisture moving through the Savannah if the Forest Ridge is as humid and moist as the Wanderer said it was. I have been in a rain-shadow forest in an arid region. The trees are small, the grass is dead and everything is dry. There is no sounds of running water anywhere. For the Forest Ridge to be a humid jungle, there has to be regular rains that condense from the mountains altitude. This moisture has to blow over or come from the Crimson Savannah, which means the savannah has to be a wet savannah. The humidity that keeps the forest ridge could result from many things - a combination of a substantial increase in druids as well as rain & water clerics uin the ridge (using magic to help provide "life support" to the ridge) as well as possibly some of the moisture from the Kano swamp could be migrating across. Doesn't necessarily have anything whatsoever with the Crimson Savannah. The Crimson Savannah, I've always imagined, does get the rain cycles as is noted, but to survive, the grass' increase in size is a direct result of adaptation to the global climate shift - increased photosynthesis to store more energy & last between rainfall long enough to release new seeds. I've always gotten the impression that as that grass dried out, it didn't just turn golden-yellow like the grasses here on earth, but got ruddy/reddish, hense the name "crimson savannah". Kano swamp cannot really be that chilly. The heat from the surrounding savannah would heat up the swamp. Large bodies of water retain their heat at night and slightly cool the the surrounded area. It may be only 5 degrees cooler near the swamp. There is a slight flaw in your logic there - Kano swamp was ground zero for Rajaat's experiments that led to the creation of arcane magic - the place is so infused with magical energies (chaotic, wild energies) that there is enough of a case to show it doesn't have to conform with "normal" weather patterns - it could very easily affect the very nature of any weather pattern (or temperature changes) that passes through it so drastically that hot & dry winds could become cold & wet in seconds. The whole swamp is seriously f'ed up. I mean, the swamp mutates living creatures, imagine what it does to the climate. Once the Sorcerer Kings learn of Dregoth and his intentions, they will have to unite and try to stop him. That is if Dregoth whats to conquer Raam and enslave the whole region. Maybe they can work a special deal with Dregoth like they did with Borys and continue on. The sorcerer-kings united once to kill Dregoth.... I've always took him as someone who holds onto a grudge. Especially since, if memory serves, Hamanu was the one who dealt the killing blow. And there was more of the sorcerer-kings around at that time, as well as I think Keltis was still evil and not Oronis yet (haven't looked at the books for a while). I really doubt that Oronis will reveal himself to the other sorcerer-kings at any cost - as if he did, he'd be commiting suicide. The Thri-Kreen won't be there for at least a few decades. The logistics of moving an army great enough to conquer a city-state or a region is incredible. The Thri-Kreen have to establish supply bases along their invasion route (which then can be attacked by the SKs). Going through or around the Ringing Mountains is not impossible, but it is very difficult and full of risks. If the Thri-Kreen fail or make a mistake, they will lose their entire army in the desert, which may or may not bother them too much, but it would leave them open to attack. Either way, it will be a while before they come. They will probably miss the conclusion to the Sorcerer Kings vs. Dregoth. Kreen are very well adapted to the deserts, especially those on Athas (TKoA only really points out 1 subrace that is more adapted to humid/wet climates). They also, by virtue of their lack of sleep, can be focusing on moving their armies at an accelerated rate compared to other races, combined with genetic memories, lower water requirement & aggressive natures, it actually wouldn't take them nearly as long as it would other races to prepare an invasion - the only thing I've ever seen that causes them to slow down is the internal beurocratic policies & subracial tensions in the Tohr-Kreen Empire.
#9 zombiegleemax Aug 11, 2003 17:14:43	Kano swamp was ground zero for Rajaat's experiments that led to the creation of arcane magic Actually, your thinking of the swamplands at the base of the Jagged Cliffs, the Misty Border. Its actually these swamps that are responsible for the humidity of the Forest Ridge, not the Crimson Savannah or the Kano Swamp (the Kano is too far away and too small to have that much impact on an area several hundred miles away). Basically, you have an example of a not very well thought out environment (an apology to the designers). The Crimson Savannah is named for the red dust that clings to everything, even hanging in the air. This implies a very dry and arid environment. You have mention of occasional rainstorms and very tall (and fast growing) grasses. This implies a non arid environment. You have a swamp in the middle of a flatland. This implies a high water table. If the water table is that high to have a swamp (they don't just form anywhere), then such severe storms would cause flooding of the flatlands. Granted, the heat is still extreme (hotter than real life savannahs even if its a little cooler than the Tablelands) which could amount for some very rapid evaporation, but for a day or two at least the area of rain would be a huge mud pit. The evaporation wouldn't neccessarily lead to a humid environment since many grasslands (notably Australia's outer flatlands) also receive some amount of rain yet are still quite arid. But in order to have a sustainable river running though, either the river is much, much larger than pictured in order to run full coarse through the low-lying swamp and still have an out pour after the swamp, or the area is in fact of moderate humidity to account for the river not drying up. You could have the river itself as a semi-seasonal aspect though as well, if you plan on keeping the region arid. The problem though, is the thri-kreen. If the area is humid enough to make sense, then the kreen, who are prone to lung infections and chitin rot from over exposure to moist conditions (from the Thri-kreen of Athas book) would be having one heck of a time there. Unless of course, the Kreen Empire is much, much larger than what is actually shown and the majority of it lies outside the Crismon Savannah (this was always my impression). Or if the imperial kreen have adapted to the humid conditions and are no longer prone to health hazards due to humidity. If they haven't adapted, or if the Kreen Empire is mostly savannah, then the area has to be arid. See the problem? Go one way with it, you lose. Go the other way, you still lose. Flood the entire area with silt, call the Tablelands a continental island, and call it a day.
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 11, 2003 17:48:19	I thought the Kano swamp was the swamp at the base of the Jagged Cliffs - which reaches as far north as the Last Sea and as far south as almost reaching the Obsidian Plains... Rajaat's experiments affected that whole region, making it corrupted & twisted (if I recall, there was a forest there before he started). Rajaat's curse (mutations) really only applies to the section below the Halfling cities to the northwest of Urik.
#11 zombiegleemax Aug 11, 2003 23:57:44	My initial point was that the Forest Ridge, with its lush jungle and rivers is far more inviting than the tablelands, with its small(compared to the savannah) verdant oasis here and there in a vast desert. The Forest Ridge has plenty water, plenty of food and plenty of wood. One great thing about the Forest Ridge is that there is no or little organized resistance there. The halfings will fight the Thri-Kreen if the enter the forest, but Thri-Kreen have numbers on their side. Any colony that is in the forest, the Thri-Kreen can hold and establish a territory. The halfings will conduct a guerilla war, but numbers will force the halfings to move on. The forest is similar to the Savannah to the Thri-Kreen, they still cannot see what is in front of them (though, it is darker) since the 'grass' is not 8', but rather 100'. Thri-Kreen, like most insects, should have their lungs in their sides and not breath through their mouths. Respiration and chittin problems may be a trade-off for more food to eat and a higher population in the Savannah. It could be that the Thri-Kreen's enjoy arid regions more, but remember that Thri-Kreen have short lifespans so they do not have to worry about the wear and tear of a long life. For chittin to rot, the insect would have to be in constant water. In the forest ridge, the rains would cause more cases of chittin rot, bu the Thri-Kreen could adapt (like using raincoats). The game design dose not seem bad at all (I think I gone a way not to lose. The Thri-Kreen can have all the problems described in that book).