Wild Magic

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

moogle001

Aug 11, 2003 1:30:04		Simple question: Should we include it? True names, a lawful magic, are already being included. Wild magic is a much more complicated idea, however, and will require a lot of care. Sean Renolds has done a version on his website, and FR has a weak version of it, but otherwise the concept seems abandoned in 3E.
#2

zombiegleemax

Aug 11, 2003 2:41:01 		That's the best idea I've heard all day (of course, it's 12:40am here in California-I mean... err...Nessus. Still, great idea. I love wild magic, anything remotely chaotic for that matter. keYboArd tyPing t0 I m@kIng wiTh am!

[edit]: because i feel like editing [/edit]
#3

zombiegleemax

Aug 11, 2003 6:42:11 		Although I loved using wild magic against players, it never made for a good game when a PC was the one using wild magic. Rarely was there any decent benefit from using wild magic to offset the dangers of surges. I believe Mongoose Publishing has a Wild Magic book, but I've not yet purchased it (but likely will in the near future). I loved the idea of wild magic zones and wild surges for casting in limbo (which could be expanded to using any spell, supernatural or spell like ability as well in limbo). I think though, that if there are surge tables, they should be broken down to effect that fit with the original intention of the spell that triggerer. I know it sounds like an oxymoron to say that the random wild magic tables should make sense, but a single compiled table of hundreds of effects would be a turn off. Perhaps splitting the effects up by way of schools or partial limits as the the potency of a surge based on the spell's level (no more cataclysm that destroys the world from a surged magic missile). Just some random brain drippings on the matter.
#4

zombiegleemax

Aug 11, 2003 13:57:32 		Definitely. As a DM, I just can't get enough of wild-magic weilding planar tiefling-kender.
#5

zombiegleemax

Aug 11, 2003 19:01:07 		I would certainly include wild magic for the planes, for instance Limbo might have a flat 10% to cause a spell to go wild when it's cast. If you were to include wild magic as a casting option it'd need either a PrC or a Core Class to do the concept justice since it really is a different way of casting.
#6

wyvern76

Aug 13, 2003 1:47:39 		Not long ago I wrote up some wild magic rules combining what I liked best from various other people's rules. I made notes on the various options and my thought processes to make sure I covered all the bases, so I ended up with what are essentially designer's notes. They're kind of long and kind of convoluted (my notes that is, not the actual rules), but they might give you some ideas on how to approach the issue even if you don't use what I came up with as-is.


Tenet #1: Wild magic should always give you an equal or better chance of a positive outcome than a negative one, otherwise there's no incentive to use it. (This assumes that wild magic is something that a character actually chooses to use, rather than an environmental effect.)

Tenet #2: There should be some way to increase your chances of getting a positive outcome.

Tenet #3: Wild magic should not require excessive dice-rolling. Any method which requires more than one roll each time a spell is cast is excessive.

Question #1: Should wild magicians should be represented by:
1) A core class?
2) A prestige class?
3) A specialist class?
3) A feat?
4) A template?
5) Some combination of the above?

Proposition: Wild magic is too difficult for a beginning character to learn, so making it a core or specialist class is unsuitable. It also requires too much dedication to be used by a specialist, who is already dedicated to his own brand of magic. Also, some practitioners of wild magic are more dedicated than others.

Solution: The Wild Magic feat (available only to non-specialist wizards and sorcerers of 3rd level or higher) is a prerequisite for the Chaos Mage prestige class.

Question #2: What should the outcome of using wild magic be?
1) Variable caster level.
2) Variable save DC (e.g. 1d20 + modifier).
3) Random metamagic effect.
4) Choose random spell from a thematic list (as in FFG's Spells & Spellcraft).
5) Ability to influence magic items with a random effect.
6) Potential for wild magic surge causing a bizarre effect.
7) Some combination of the above.

Analysis:
1) Variable caster level is useful and simple to adjudicate. It also has precedent in 2nd edition.
2) Variable save DC is simple to apply, but does't really capture the true flavor of wild magic in and of itself. It could be used in combination with variable caster level, but that requires too many rolls.
3) Random metamagic effects are useful, but difficult to adjudicate.
4) Casting without knowing what spell is going to come out can lead to some very interesting and funny results, but makes the wild mage's usefulness as a character very unreliable.
5) The ability to influence magic items with a random effect is useful, but not likely to come into play very often.
6) Wild magic surges are interesting and definitely capture the flavor of wild magic, but can be a headache for both player and GM if they happen regularly.

Solution: The Wild Magic feat allows a roll to be made for variable caster level. If the caster level modifier is positive, the caster may choose to apply a metamagic feat instead. Wild magic surges may occur when a wild spell is cast, but are not guaranteed. The ability to influence wild magic items is also available, but only to true devotees of the art of wild magic (i.e. the Chaos Mage prestige class).

Proposition: The Wild Magic feat should allow the caster to choose whether or not to cast any given spell as a wild spell. However, if he takes a level in the Chaos Mage class, any spells he casts thereafter are considered wild.

Tenet #1: Wild magic should always give you an equal or better chance of a positive outcome than a negative one, otherwise there's no incentive to use it. Ways to accomplish this:
1) Roll 4d6, drop lowest and consult the ability modifier table to determine caster level (e.g. a result of 14 gives a +2 to caster level).
2) As above, but roll 1d20 + ability modifier.
3) Introduce control points which can be spent to gain a +1 to the roll (see tenet #2).

Analysis:
1) Rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest die is mathematically elegant, but requires too much rolling and adding to be used every time a wild spell is cast.
2) Rolling 1d20 + ability modifier allows too much potential for abuse by characters with high stats, and doesn't allow for much improvement in the character's control over the wild magic as he increases in level.
3) Rolling 1d20 + control bonus ensures that the caster will give a positive result more often than a negative one without being too reliable.

Solution: Each time you cast a wild spell, you roll 1d20 + control bonus and treat the result as an ability score. The corresponding ability bonus (from Table 1-1 in the PHB) is the caster level. The Wild Magic feat gives you a control bonus of +1.
A natural 1 or 20 on the wild magic check results in a wild surge (roll on the wild spell effect table of your choice) and no modification to the caster level check unless the surge result indicates it. You can modify the surge result up or down by an amount equal or less than your control bonus (if the surge roll is 1d20; if it uses percentile dice, multiply your control bonus by 5%).
If the caster level result from the wild magic check is positive (and not a wild surge), the caster can apply a metamagic feat to the spell for free instead of increasing the caster level. The feat must be one the caster already has, and it must be one that affects the spell itself (e.g. Empower, Enlarge, Extend, Heighten or Maximize Spell or Energy Substitution) instead of the casting of the spell (e.g. Quicken, Silent or Still Spell or Eschew Materials). The caster level bonus from the check must be equal to or greater than the spell level modifier of the feat +1, and only one feat can be applied per spell; any extra bonus levels are lost. The caster cannot increase the caster level and apply a metamagic feat to the same spell. Casting a wild spell also precludes the normal use of metamagic feats. Applying a metamagic effect to a wild spell doesn't use up a higher spell slot, but it does increase the casting time regardless of whether the caster is a wizard or sorcerer.

Tenet #2: There should be some way to increase your chances of getting a positive outcome. Ways to accomplish this:
1) Control points gained as you increase levels in a wild mage class.
2) Control points gained by taking a feat.
3) Caster level check.
4) Spellcraft check.
5) Add your relevant ability modifier to wild magic checks.

Analysis: A Spellcraft or caster level check allows too much potential power at high levels and requires one too many rolls. Adding your ability modifier to the wild magic check allows too much potential power at low levels and not enough chance of advancement at higher levels.

Proposition: The Chaos Mage class should allow greater control over wild spells, but it should also be possible to increase your control without having to take that class.

Solution: The Wild Spell Control feat increases your control bonus by +1. The feat can be taken multiple times and its effects stack. The Chaos Mage class also increases your control bonus by +1 at 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th levels.

Now that the groundwork has been laid, it's time to flesh out the Chaos Mage class itself.

Prerequisites
Alignment: Any nonlawful
Skills: Spellcraft 10 ranks
Feat: Wild Magic
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells

Class features
Hit Die: d4
BAB: Poor (1/2 levels)
Saving Throws: Will good, Fort and Reflex poor
Class Skills: Alchemy, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (any), Profession, Spellcraft
Skill Points/level: 2 + Int modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A chaos mage gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.
Spells Per Day: A chaos mage gains new spells per day as if he had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased caster level. If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a chaos mage, he must decide which class to add the new level to for purposes of determining spells per day.
Chaos's Child: Any arcane spells cast by the chaos mage are automatically wild spells. A chaos mage also triggers a wild surge on any roll of 20 or higher on a wild spell check (as well as any natural 1). Finally, a chaos mage can attempt to control the outcome of using magic items with random effects by making a caster level check (DC 10 + caster level of item). The following items from the DMG can be controlled in this way: amulet of the planes, bag of tricks, deck of illusions, well of many worlds and deck of many things.
Control Bonus: The character's control bonus increases by +1 at 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th level. These bonuses stack with each other and with any bonuses gained from feats.
Ex-Chaos Mages: A chaos mage who becomes lawful or who forswears the use of wild magic loses the ability to cast wild spells and to control wild magic items. If he wishes to go back to using wild magic, he must take the Wild Magic feat again before he can gain any more levels as a chaos mage, and his control bonus is reset to +1 when he takes the feat; he does not regain any control bonus he had previously.
#7

kalidor187

Aug 13, 2003 7:39:04 		For the Wild Magic Feat you suggested, I would change the prerequisite to: Non-specialist spellcasters capable of casting 3rd level or higher arcane spells.

This would open the feat up to 7th level bards, 6th level sorcerers, and 5th level (non-specialist) wizards.

I thought about your analysis regarding the pros and cons of using the various tables available in 2e. One idea I came up with was to use the variable caster level for the feat. The additional effects could be incorporated into a Chaos Mage prestige class.

The level adjustment would be identical to the table a cleric uses for turning undead. Simply use the relevant ability modifier (Cha for sorcerers and bards & Int for wizards) and roll a d20. Use the turning undead table to determine the caster's new effective casting level.

I would also suggest that the caster be able to determine when to use this feat rather than it always being in effect. Furthermore, certain planes may deny the use of this feat or hinder the effectiveness, such as:

-1 penalty to the Wild Magic check for Gehenna and Bytopia
-2 penalty to the Wild Magic check for Baator and Mount Celestia
-3 penalty to the Wild Magic check for Acheron and Arcadia
-4 penalty to the Wild Magic check for Mechanus

Conversely, a bonus could be applied to the slightly more chaotic planes.

+1 bonus to the Wild Magic check for Careceri and Beastlands
+2 bonus to the Wild Magic check for Arborea and the Abyss
+3 bonus to the Wild Magic check for Ysgard and Pandemonium
+4 bonus to the Wild Magic check for Limbo

Certain areas of Mechanus could be said to completely deny the use of Wild Magic, while certain areas of Limbo could mandate the use of Wild Magic, even if unintended.

Anyway, just some ideas to throw into the pot.
#8

wyvern76

Aug 13, 2003 15:09:07
Originally posted by Kalidor187
For the Wild Magic Feat you suggested, I would change the prerequisite to: Non-specialist spellcasters capable of casting 3rd level or higher arcane spells.

This would open the feat up to 7th level bards, 6th level sorcerers, and 5th level (non-specialist) wizards.

I chose to exclude bards because they're too diversified; I don't think that they would have sufficient dedication to study wild magic. But that's just one person's opinion. In any case, I still think that the feat should be available to wizards and sorcerers at 3rd level, though the Spellcraft requirement means that they'd have to be 7th level to become true chaos mages. Hmmm... if you're going to allow bards to take the Wild Magic feat, how about changing the prerequisite to 2nd-level arcane spells. That way a bard could take it at 7th level, a sorcerer at 3rd, and a wizard at 2nd (if they had a feat slot available then, which they won't unless they're multiclassed).

I thought about your analysis regarding the pros and cons of using the various tables available in 2e. One idea I came up with was to use the variable caster level for the feat. The additional effects could be incorporated into a Chaos Mage prestige class.

By "additional effects" you're referring to what? The ability to apply free metamagic feats? The chance of a wild surge? I can see the metamagic being limited to chaos mages, but I think that wild surges should be a risk for *anyone* who uses wild magic.

The level adjustment would be identical to the table a cleric uses for turning undead. Simply use the relevant ability modifier (Cha for sorcerers and bards & Int for wizards) and roll a d20. Use the turning undead table to determine the caster's new effective casting level.

I hadn't thought of that. That would have the benefit of keeping the possible range of variation within more reasonable limits. The downside is that, while I'm sure a lot of people have the ability mod table memorized by now, I doubt that's true for the turning table. I know it's not for me; I always have to look it up.

If you do go that route, I suggest removing the rule that there's no caster level adjustment on a wild surge; otherwise it's impossible to get a to +4 caster level (which is necessary to Maximize a wild spell) unless you skip the chaos mage class and just buy lots of Wild Spell Control feats. (Remember, a chaos mage surges on a roll of 20 or higher; a non-chaos mage only on a natural 20 or natural 1.)

OTOH, that might make chaos mages too powerful at high levels. A 10th-level C.M. will have a control bonus of at least +5, which means that he has a 60% chance of getting a positive level adjustment, and a 20% chance of reaching +4. Furthermore, the ability to control the outcome of wild surges can be abused. For example, using the wild magic table on p. 14 of MotP, a roll of 32-35 means that the spell works normally but is not used up. With a control bonus of +5, he can adjust the roll by +/-25%, giving him a 54% chance of hitting this range. The fact that he's also at +3 caster level or higher (barring a natural 1 on the wild magic check) pushes him over the top.

I would also suggest that the caster be able to determine when to use this feat rather than it always being in effect.

Well, if you just take the Wild Magic feat, you *can* decide whether to use it or not. However, a chaos mage is someone totally committed to the idea of wild magic; casting a non-wild spell should be anathema to him.

Furthermore, certain planes may deny the use of this feat or hinder the effectiveness, such as:

I had the same thought myself. Limbo already requires a caster level check to avoid a wild surge. I think that Mechanus should have the impeded magic trait for wild magic; that is, if you try to cast a wild spell there you must succeed at a Spellcraft check or lose the spell. I'm not sure that progressive penalties to the check on lawful planes is the best solution, because they don't make the magic "less wild", they just increase your chances of getting a negative caster level adjustment.

Wyvern
#9

zombiegleemax

Aug 13, 2003 15:44:17 		I agree, and in my campaign we have some wild magic rules, but I don't really feel like getting into them right now.

It's obvioulsy a good idea to have something, though. When players expect spells to work in Limbo the same way they did in Mechanus then obviously something needs to chagen.
#10

kalidor187

Aug 14, 2003 8:50:22 		Here is a rough draft of my proposal of a Chaos Mage:

Chaos Mage
Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any chaotic
Skills: Spellcraft 10 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 10 ranks
Feats: Wild Magic
Other: Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells.

Hit Die: d4
BAB: Poor (1/2 levels)
Saving Throws: Will good, Fort and Reflex poor
Class Skills: Alchemy, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (any), Profession, Spellcraft
Skill Points/level: 2 + Int modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A chaos mage gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Level Spells Other
1 +1 level of existing class Chaos Child 1
2 +1 level of existing class
3 +1 level of existing class Bonus feat
4 +1 level of existing class Chaos Child 2
5 +1 level of existing class
6 +1 level of existing class Bonus feat
7 +1 level of existing class Chaos Child 3
8 +1 level of existing class
9 +1 level of existing class Bonus Feat
10 +1 level of existing class Chaos Child 4

Effective upon taking the Choas Mage prestige class, all spells cast by the Chaos Mage gain the (Choas) descriptor.

Chaos Child- Whenever a choas mage casts a spell, roll a d20. If this result is a 1, apply the Choas Child # as a penalty to the Wild Magic variable casting table. If the result is a 19, apply the Chaos Child # to the Wild Magic variable casting table as a bonus. If the result is a 20, consult the Wild surge table.

Chaos Child- Add the appropriate Chaos Child # to the DC for any saving throws applicable to the spell.

At 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels, the Chaos Mage gains any bonus metamagic feat.

This adds another die roll for the caster, but I couldn't find any other way to fairly apply the Choas Child ability. I thought about not having any penalties, but I am of the opinion that the good should go with the bad.

Wild Magic feat [Metamagic]
Prerequisite: Any one other metamagic feat; ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.
Other: Must be a non-specialist wizard or sorcerer.

Benefit: When a spellcaster casts a spell with the Wild Magic feat, roll a d20 and consult the variable casting level table (i.e. Cleric's turn undead table) to determine the new effective casting level. Apply the primary modifier (Cha for sorcerers and Int for wizards) to this roll as well.

I'll try to tackle comments in reverse order of my post. I excluded bards as per your suggestion. I think you have a valid point regarding their diversification. Dropping it to 2nd level arcane opens the feat up to 3rd level wizards and 4th level sorcerers, but I wanted to emphasize the dedication to studying the variable effects by including the prerequisite for another metamagic feat. If a wizard takes the Enlarge Spell feat, then they would realize that spells are not static and have variable effects. This could lead to the study of Wild Magic. I didn't want to include a wild surge, since casters would only be scratching the surface of wild magic with the feat. IMO, surges should be the result of dedicated study, the plane, or wild magic areas.

For the Choas Mage, I lifted some ideas from you, particularly the Chaos Child. I think this is a really neat idea and I wanted to see where I could take it. Although I didn't include it in my rought draft, you could use the Chaos Child variable to affect the oucome of a Deck of Many Things, etc.

For example, a Wiz 7/Chaos Mage 4 with an Int 18 would cast Cone of Cold then roll a d20.

If the result is 19, the caster would then roll another d20 to determine the effective casting level. Assuming an average roll of 11 (10.5), you would add the Int modifier (+4) and the Chaos Child modifier (+2) and the result would be 17 (+2 caster level). The Cone of Cold would effectively be determined as if cast by a 13th level mage, dealing 13d6 points of cold damage, spell save DC 21 [10+ 5 (spell level)+ 4 (Int modifier)+ 2 (Chaos Child modifier)].

If the result is 1, the caster would roll another d20 to determine the effective casting level. Assuming an average roll of 11 (10.5), you would add the Int modifier (+4) and the Chaos Child modifier (-2) and the result would be 13 (+1 caster level). The Cone of Cold would effectively be determined as if cast by a 12th level mage, dealing 12d6 points of cold damage, spell save DC 21.

Okay, let's deterine extreme cases. If the result is 19, the caster would then roll another d20 to determine the effective casting level. Assuming a roll of 20, you would add the Int modifier (+4) and the Chaos Child modifier (+2) and the result would be 26 (+4 caster level). The Cone of Cold would effectively be determined as if cast by a 15th level mage, dealing 15d6 points of cold damage, spell save DC 21.

If the result is 1, the caster would roll another d20 to determine the effective casting level. Assuming a roll of 1, you would add the Int modifier (+4) and the Chaos Child modifier (-2) and the result would be 3 (-3 caster level). The Cone of Cold would effectively be determined as if cast by a 8th level mage, dealing 8d6 points of cold damage, spell save DC 21.

I realize that the additional abilities seems threadbare when compared to some other prestige classes. I am still struggling with some ideas on how to incorporate using metamagic feats on spells without allocating a higher spell slot. Maybe use the Chaos Child ability again... since Maximize Spell uses a slot 3 levels higher, a Chaos Child 3 could allocate this to any spell a certain number of times per day. Feedback is appreciated.
#11

zombiegleemax

Aug 14, 2003 8:53:27
Originally posted by Kalidor187
[b]Here is a rough draft of my proposal of a Chaos Mage:

Chaos Mage
Prerequisites:
Alignment: Non-lawful

Non-lawful? I dunno, Chaos Magery seems a bit Chaotic for.... [ughhhh] Neutrals. I'd go with Alignment: Chaotic, but who am I to say opinion what your make see have seems.
#12

wyvern76

Aug 16, 2003 17:28:00
Originally posted by Kalidor187
Here is a rough draft of my proposal of a Chaos Mage:
[snip]
Benefit: When a spellcaster casts a spell with the Wild Magic feat, roll a d20 and consult the variable casting level table (i.e. Cleric's turn undead table) to determine the new effective casting level. Apply the primary modifier (Cha for sorcerers and Int for wizards) to this roll as well.

I don't really think it's a good idea to add the character's ability mod to the wild magic roll. This would mean that a wizard with an 18 Int would gain, on average, a +1 to his caster level on every spell he casts, with no risk of wild surges, for the cost of one feat. Furthermore, he'll have a 15% chance of hitting +4 caster level, and will never drop below -2 caster level. That's just too powerful.

Secondly, I don't like having to make a second roll for every spell you cast, especially if it's only going to matter 15% of the time. In my original system it wasn't necessary. Here's my system, modified according to changes you suggested:

Wild Magic feat gives you +1 control bonus; roll on the turning table; no chance of wild surge.
Wild Spell Control feat increases your control bonus by +1; the feat can be taken multiple times and stacks.
Chaos Mage increases your control bonus by +1 at 1st, 4th, 7th and 20th levels; wild surges occur in addition to the caster level bonus on a roll of 20+ or a natural 1, and any caster level bonus granted by the wild surge stacks with this (assuming the spell works at all). The chaos mage can modify the wild surge roll up or down by an amount proportional to his control bonus.

Your other changes seem fine to me, by the way. You didn't say whether somone with the Wild Magic feat *always* casts wild spells, or can choose whether a spell is wild or not. I think chaos mages, by their nature, should always cast wild spells.

As for metamagic, what did you think of the rules I suggested for applying free metamagic feats in lieu of a caster level bonus? Perhaps if it were made into another feat, with Wild Magic as a prerequisite?

Wyvern
#13

zombiegleemax

Aug 17, 2003 18:48:17 		Wild Magic by SKR

I just remembered that SKR wrote some pretty decent OGC Wild magic rules.
#14

zombiegleemax

Aug 17, 2003 22:37:26 		Good ol' Reynolds--another one of those few really good people at Wizards who for some odd reason no longer works there.
#15

factol_rhys_dup

Aug 18, 2003 21:43:26 		I have one request that I implore you to review if you decide to include Wild Magic (which I hope you do): have something better than the wild surge tables that used to handle them. What I found was that the results tended to be useless and overly comical. One player in my campaign loved his wild mage but was afraid to intentionally set off a wild surge because it turned the combat into a slapstick and didn't ever seem to help. I mean really, small mushrooms raining from the air, the caster sprouts a 10-inch beard? I think it needs a more adult approach. Wild Magic should be unpredictable and dangerous, not some magic force that, when you want a fireball, gives a wedgie to everyone within ten feet.

How about this: wild magic randomly changes the numerical values of the spell, so it increases or decreases the effective caster level of the spell. And for a wild surge, it should be things like fragile items shattering nearby, energy bursts at random locations, metamagic feats, or even things like have the effects of another spell of equal level take effect.

One last note: I think it would be beneficial for a wild mage to gain a little more control over his chaos effects as he levels up. As he deals with wild magic more and more, he gains a certain attunement to its fluctuations and can predict their effects to a degree. At higher levels, the wild magic should work to his benefit a little more often than to his detrement. After all, a wild mage is a wizard who gathers chaos energies and shapes them, not just chucks them thoughtlessly at his foes.
#16

zombiegleemax

Aug 20, 2003 19:46:33 		Why let wizards be chaos mages? I can understand letting them take the wild magic feat, but Sorcerers have a more "chaotic" look on magic IMHO.
#17

factol_rhys_dup

Aug 20, 2003 21:44:51 		Wizards or Sorcerers should be able to be Wild Mages. True, sorcerers tend to be a little more chaotic since they're independent and, but that isn't enough to say that Wizards couldn't do it. A wizard could easily be a wild mage, he'd just tend to be the sort who studied the chaotic energies rather than playing with them. I just don't think Wizards and Sorcerers are different enough, alignment-wise, to say one can't be a Wild Mage. The class write-ups even say that, even though there are those slight tendencies, both can be any alignment.
#18

wyvern76

Aug 21, 2003 2:14:59
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
I have one request that I implore you to review if you decide to include Wild Magic (which I hope you do): have something better than the wild surge tables that used to handle them.

Well, I've been operating on the assumption that the default wild surge table would be the one in the MotP.

How about this: wild magic randomly changes the numerical values of the spell, so it increases or decreases the effective caster level of the spell.
...
One last note: I think it would be beneficial for a wild mage to gain a little more control over his chaos effects as he levels up.
...
At higher levels, the wild magic should work to his benefit a little more often than to his detrement.

You must not have bothered to actually read this thread before posting in it, or you would know that's exactly what I've done with my wild magic rules. How about posting feedback on what I or Kalidor have posted instead of just repeating what I already said?

Wyvern
#19

primemover003

Aug 22, 2003 16:56:54 		The wild surge tables we used to use had over 400 different surges. The wild mage PC in my group, one Renqual the Wild of Xaos used this table and we always had fun with it, even in serious combat. He's been turned into a Carp, aged 10 years, stuck by a meteor, hit by his most powerful damaging spell (Cone of Cold at the time), caused a giant tree to grow in the middle of a tavern, gated 100 dretches that immediately attacked him... oh the memories. He ended up retiring in Xaos running Renqual's cubic Emporium (a modified Daern's Intstant Fortress). He was connected to the Mercane, A'kin (a close personal friend), and the Merkhant's sect in the Marketplace eternal on the Outlands.

But I digress. I agree with Wyvern in that it needs to be a Simple system. It should be a Prestige class, having a Requisite Feat for wild Magic, probably meta. Some class abilities to influence die rolls (like the Luck domain) would be appropriate. Updates of the old Wild magic spells would be nice... Nahal's Reckless Dweomer!!!
#20

factol_rhys_dup

Aug 25, 2003 12:45:08 		Lay off, Wyvern. The thread isn't supposed to be about "feedback" for your ideas on a Prestige Class. Moogle001 set it up to ask if people thought wild magic should be included in PS3E, so if my ideas do agree with yours, then how about just saying so and not trying to criticize my brief series of suggestions to moogle, seeing as he's the one who asked.

But no, actually, I really just skimmed your PrCl idea, because all I really had time for was to put in my ideas concerning the question which was asked in the first place: should wild magic be included in PS3E and, if so, how should it be handled. How silly of me to think that that's what the forums were for.
#21

wyvern76

Aug 26, 2003 1:33:17
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Lay off, Wyvern. The thread isn't supposed to be about "feedback" for your ideas on a Prestige Class. Moogle001 set it up to ask if people thought wild magic should be included in PS3E, so if my ideas do agree with yours, then how about just saying so and not trying to criticize my brief series of suggestions to moogle, seeing as he's the one who asked.

But no, actually, I really just skimmed your PrCl idea, because all I really had time for was to put in my ideas concerning the question which was asked in the first place: should wild magic be included in PS3E and, if so, how should it be handled. How silly of me to think that that's what the forums were for.

I'm afraid I came across harsher than I intended. I had a feeling I might, but I just couldn't think of a more polite way to say what I was trying to say. Tact has never been my strong point.

It makes little difference to me whether you like my suggestions or not. It makes no difference to me whether you comment on my ideas or post something entirely unrelated. What bothers me is when somebody "suggests" something that other people have already been discussing at great length.

IOW, I wasn't irked because you didn't comment on my ideas, I was irked because you spent half your post saying more or less what I'd already said, instead of adding something new to the discussion.

But you're right in saying that I shouldn't have jumped on you so hard when you were only trying to respond to the original post. For that I apologize.

Wyvern
#22

sildatorak

Sep 11, 2003 1:33:39 		I don't think the chaos mage class should be alignment restricted at all. Yeah, wild magic is really unpredictable, but if I remember my Tome of Magic description of it from 2e, it is supposed to be raw, semi-shaped magical energy rather than magic that taps into the nature of chaos. I can envision some lawful wizard carefully noting in his journal "10% of spells (with a +/- 3% margin of error) generated atypical effects. These have included…" after running his 200th experiment on the topic. A wizard who went around just chucking spells randomly would not really be gaining deeper insight into wild magic, he would just be getting better at manipulating it.
Lawful practitioners would probably be vary rare compared to chaotic ones, but I don't think they should be prohibitted.