damn that's depressing
But the topic I wanted to discuss is why Birthright has found itself in such a sad state of affairs? The setting is awesome, the rules are great, Domain actions added with Adventuring offer roleplaying action that no other setting allows, but still it died out probably a decade ago.
Could it be that there were never really good authors who wrote novels about the world the way R.A. Salvator and Ed Greenwood did for Forgotten Realms? (yes their talent is debatable too, but that's not the point). Could it be that I'm actually wrong and the setting isn't that great? Budget constraints, hostile takeovers, the economy took a down turn? Any thoughts?
My theory is thus; WoTC, or whoever owned it at the time, never developed the setting enough to truly attracted enough players. I personally think the gods are boring, there's potential, but again not developed. And I also feel that it takes a pretty impressive DM to really run Birthright the way it should be, since in the end what you're really playing for is domination of the world you need to have a very competent and trustworthy DM.
Maybe I should stop my rant now...
All in my opinion, of course.
The BR setting knocks anything that TSR (or now WotC) has ever put out to date, with the possible exception of the Dragonlance originals.
But, as I understand it, simply put: BR came out when TSR was dying. Hence, everyone was trying to save their own skin and the money people were desperately trying to keep their money makers. Since BR was new, there was not "established market value" in the line at the time, and hence marketing dollars went to those settings that have proven selling ability. It takes a lot of investment in advertising when marketing something new, and BR got the short end. Not to mention the 3rd edition was in the works, and blamo - BR was forgotten in the mad rush of publishing ventures.
BR was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Basically, nobody knows about BR. There are only a couple of people in my city that know about, and 3/4 of them were introduced to the game by me back in 1998. Heck, I didn't even know it existed until '98, but it came out in the last quarter of 1995 (beginning of '96). Thats bad considering - at the time - I was pretty much up-to-date on all things D&D-ish.
For BR to come back, it'd have to have the same marketing that Dragonlance and FR got in their beginnings. But, of course, WotC doesn't want to do the same mistake as TSR did with fingers in too many pies at once.
It will take some outside influence to change things.
All that said, try and take a look at the community at http://www.birthright.net - it's not the most active of online communities, but it's far from inactive or dead, either. More contributors are always welcome.
What about the BR novels? I know there's one called "Iron Throne" but are there others? And are they any good?
And I have looked at the birthright.net pages several times, mostly looking at domain actions/spells and such; but i've never really gotten into it much. What all do they have to offer?
If the Birthright sourcebooks had been combined so that all the neighbouring domains had been combined into one product, I think it would have sold better--even if the price was so high that TSR made the same profit off the sales.
One of the most noticeable features of the domain sourcebooks was the fold-out cardboard screens. While interesting, they could have been done away with easily--players don't need screens. Then several sourcebooks could have been combined into a single product: Buy that product, and you're all set to run a game involving three or four domains.
And I have looked at the birthright.net pages several times, mostly looking at domain actions/ spells and such; but i've never really gotten into it much. What all do they have to offer?
Well, there's a 3e conversion, for one, if that interests you. There's also an actual community to discuss things with, if that interests you.
I think TSR putting out a hardcover book would have gone a long way towards helping BR really take off.
What about the BR novels? I know there's one called "Iron Throne" but are there others? And are they any good?
I tend to agree about the hardcover thing; sadly, it never happened. Most of the BR novels are "ok," but not really great.
For me, the problem was cost. I couldn't afford to get into the setting when it first came out. Having all those books for separate domains really put a crimp in my buying impulse.
I don't think those were ever required purchases - of course, in some ways, TSR, like any other publisher at the time, probably made their money off the Pokémon principle - "gotta catch 'em all!" The only purchase really required to play BR, IMO, was the original boxed set, plus the regional expansions, if you intended to play in other parts than Anuire.
That said, Birthright.net is currently working on an "Atlas," which consolidates a lot of useful info into one book. Best part is that it's free.
One of the most noticeable features of the domain sourcebooks was the fold-out cardboard screens. While interesting, they could have been done away with easily--players don't need screens. Then several sourcebooks could have been combined into a single product: Buy that product, and you're all set to run a game involving three or four domains.
I'd say that would depend on your style of play - if you played the backstabbing, to-each-their-own-domain style of play, separate screens might actually have been a good idea. I doubt most people played like that, though, or even felt they needed it if they did play like that.
How many BR novels are there? the only one I know of is Iron Throne, are there more? And are they good?
Others include Greatheart, The Hag's Contract, The Spider's Test, and War (the follow up to the Iron Throne).
Also there is The Shadow Stone, a FR novel that is actually a thinly disguised BR novel. It was originally meant to be published as a BR novel, but the line was cancelled, so it became a FR novel, although some BR elements still shine through. The story was about the High Mage Aelies and his battle against one of the Lost.
Another novel, The Falcon and the Wolf, is available as a free download from wizards at the following location.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/FalconWolfspreads.pdf
It does seem very interesting though and I'll be sure to read that novel. Thanks.
Do you game in a particular setting? If so, then its not dead, is it? Likewise, even if a setting has dozens of products designed for it pumped out of the pipelines every year, but you don't game in it or purchase those products, then by all accounts, that is, to you and your gaming group, a dead setting.
At least 2 seperate groups are working on revising BirthRigth for other game systems (3e and HackMaster) :D
Yeah Mark, it is me "the Dwarf" who followed the BirthRight list for a long time, BirthRight.net off and on (occasionally), but now more active in other forums ... still plugging BirthRight every chance I get :D
still plugging BirthRight every chance I get
That's the spirit. If nothing else, you'll bring the setting to the attention of others. Although Birthright was not out for very long, it has quite a bit of printed material and ports quite easily into GH, FR, DL, or most typical homebrew settings. That's one of its strengths is that, while unique in its approach, it was still fairly standard and hence easy to get a handle on. Those who give the rules and core setting book a cursory once over can grasp the basics of the setting's flavor quite easily (try explaining Dark Sun to someone in two paragraphs). Birthright wasn't plugged too much before the shutting down of TSR (it was, but no single setting was able to garner enough attention due to the number of supported and semi-supported settings). Many people, when they finally do get some exposure to Birthright, quickly adapt into the setting's heavy use of strong historical cultures and mythical based magic, even if they're not too fond of the war and rulership systems (I for one was not very happy about the domain system preferring more depth in tactical politics, but that's just me ;)).
It's all about the money, so if you're uber-serious about reviving BR then you got to put serious dough down. Of course, you better back that money up with your credential. We gamers can be very critical about the direction BR is going, regardless of who publishing it, Wizards or a third party.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Personally, I'd stop relying on Wizards of the Coast to revive Birthright and start praying that a third-party publisher willing to acquire the license to launch Birthright line.
OK
Birthright.net has put forth a free for download conversion of BirthRight to 3e.
IIRC Kenzer & Company has a license to publish AD&D material for their HackMaster RPG. I have heard rumors on the HackMaster forums that BirthRight is being "hacked" (aka, converted to HackMaster RPG). HackMaster is basically AD&D with more "crunchy bits" and 1e flavor (crit tables, more classes, and alignment system, Honor stat, etc). Worth looking into.
And what all is going to be in it? NPC's, Domains, creatures???
Originally posted by Tahl-Ali
I've looked at the Playtest Version of 3.0 birthright, it's not bad from what i've seen and I plan to download it and print it out as soon as I get a chance. But what about the Birthright Atlas, does anyone know when that's supposed to be released???
And what all is going to be in it? NPC's, Domains, creatures???
Yes to all, well probably not a monster manual type of thing but definitely major players in the regions. It will be released in sections, so that people can have something to work with instead of having to wait what could be several years with the amount of areas that people want covered - the first will be Anuire. I don't think Ian has a set release date yet, but he's pushing the group to get it together.
Basically the Atlas will be a trumped up version of the Domain Packs from the original setting. A brief synopsis of each province, major regents, story line hooks, regionally specific prestige classes, a write up of the various religious groups, etc.
Oh yeah and maps - he promised maps.
Damn I wish I could play BR :sad:
I want it I want it I want it!
Originally posted by theDwarf
OK
Birthright.net has put forth a free for download conversion of BirthRight to 3e.
Makes me wonder why the folks at Birthright.net didn't form a game publishing company and acquire the Birthright license from Wizards. That way they can be the official publisher of Birthright as much as Sovereign Presss is the official publisher of Dragonlance books.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Otherwise, I think Sovereign Stone would have aquired the license far sooner than they had.
Honestly, I'm glad Sovereign Press (publisher of Sovereign Stone RPG) is taking over the support of Dragonlance. It is a logical progression, since the company is co-owned by Margaret Weis.
It's better to let somebody else take a crack at Birthright. My recommendation: Jim Butler's Bastion Press, who can contract Rich Baker to do the bulk of BR d20 material.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Makes me wonder why the folks at Birthright.net didn't form a game publishing company and acquire the Birthright license from Wizards. That way they can be the official publisher of Birthright as much as Sovereign Presss is the official publisher of Dragonlance books.
Probably cost of license and startup costs. Figure at least one or two people working full time on the project to get it to printable stage, then the cost of computers and paying the printer upfront, THEN hoping it does better than lukewarm sales so you might break even. Unfortunately Birthright was not a runaway success despite a very loyal fan base (Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Gamma World, Star Frontiers and Gothic Earth all have a fairly loyal fan base, but not quite large enough to establish a company around).
An established company has the cost of the license, then having a person or two working on it for a year or so ... depending on the sales of other products this may not be as big a risk. Furthermore, established companies already have a distribution network (a VERY big factor ... new companies may have the greatest game in the world, but that doesn't mean a thing it they can not get it distributed, advertised, etc).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
How about Birthright, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, etc.? Not likely at all. 30-40,000 bucks is just a bit too much money to lose simply to appease a small audience that doesn't like pdf style books. Of course, if there were someone with that kind of money to just throw out the window . . . . (any seriously rich people trolling the boards??)
Aye. That is why Birthright.net (3e) and Kenzer & Company (HackMaster) appear to be the best bets at this time.
~Delphi, a bird brain, but no bodies fool.
Originally posted by theDwarf
Aye. That is why Birthright.net (3e) and Kenzer & Company (HackMaster) appear to be the best bets at this time.
Personally, I'd rather Kenzer & Co. focus on their comic books and their Hackmaster line. By saying that, I don't like them to make BR another Hack-converted product.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Personally, I'd rather Kenzer & Co. focus on their comic books and their Hackmaster line. By saying that, I don't like them to make BR another Hack-converted product.
Um, you do realize that HackMaster is converted AD&D, and that the "HackMaster Line" potentially includes everything AD&D?
By that definition converting products to HackMaster IS working on the HackMaster line.
Oh, btw, you forgot "Official HackMaster Tactical Combat Miniatures", "Kingdoms of Kalamar" campaign setting, "Dwarven Diq!" board game, "Final Days" miniatures game, "Elemental" board game, etc. :D
I don't play anymore but I still pull out the books every few months just to read, dream, and write.
You could say Birthright was almost made for me.:D
Throughout my D&D and AD&D days I always focused more on the Kingdoms and struggles between them than on crawling through tombs.
I was in heaven when the D&D Companion book came out with its domain rules.
I've owned about everything released for Birthright at one point or another. Of course I have also lost alot of it over time.
The biggest problem with Birthright was the game itself. Most of my fellow players wanted hack and slash, dungeons, mountains of gold, and experience points.
A major part of Birthright is "managing" your domain. Another big part is political wheeling and dealing.
Many DMs and players just didn't, and probably still don't, have the flair or desire to enjoy that.
So basically Birthright was a niche version of a niche game, D&D. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that the game did not become as popular as the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance versions.
Hopefully it will return at some point and/or be translated into a more successful pc game than Birthright: Gorgon's Alliance.
One thing I feel would help BR IMHO would have been better artwork. I know I'm cruising for a flame and I'm sure that the artists who put their work forth in BR worked very hard. But unlike other settings, the artwork in BR rarely if ever made me go "Wow! That looks so cool!" I really think regardless of what others think, that when you walk up to a product the cover should say "BUY ME! THIS IS COOL!" Even as subdued as the 3E core rule books are they still look cool. I also like the way the Wheel of Time looks. So really, flashy artwork works for some of us (much like a magpie likes shiny objects):D Once the bait is cast then exploring the rules will draw you in. Birthright is a truly great setting.
Dremn
I don't buy rulebooks for the flash, I buy them hoping for substance. While flash can attract some people, subtlely can attract others. Still, I agree with you: Flashier attracted would have attracted more players.
Tony S's artwork rocked. Do you own Bloodenemies? Tribes of the Heartless Wastes?
The only really crappy piece was the Havens of the Great Bay cover ...
Unless you prefer the clean image of gold and platinum trappings of a king adorning the cover ... a king that foolishly challenged a Gorgon and left no heir.
Then again, I guess it is how they made the setting, especially changing the known rules about the other races (no elf priest, no native halfling, etc.).
I think the rest of the main sourcebooks were his though.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Then again, I guess it is how they made the setting, especially changing the known rules about the other races (no elf priest, no native halfling, etc.).
That's my favourite part of the BirthRight world.
Originally posted by Algolei
That's my favourite part of the BirthRight world.
It may be your favorite, but I don't think it has caught on with almost all of the AD&D Player's Handbook owners.
I always thought that Birthright should be a generic D&D rules supplement, with a chapter or two devoted to Cerilia as a default setting. Ideally, I wish they follow what used to be a FR supplement turned D&D 3.5e hardcover Draconomicon (a combination of the FR dragon-themed supplement and Council of Wyrm) with a Birthright: The Lord Regent's Handbook (or somesuch title).
As for it failing, mostly it was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Most people thought it was (another) generic fantasy world when most were busy playing FR or Greyhawk. The unique features were not highlighted well. It shall always live in our hearts and minds (as well as campaigns!).
The heroes of Anuire await ;)
Originally posted by Dalmuti
My favorate thing was how they actually explained the monsters. They were the babies of the uber-monsters. Vampires didn't exist before THE VAMPIRE. Chimera's where just the servents of THE CHIMERA, etc. That was really kewl I liked it a lot!
Yuck, IMO that is. If you wanted to play Forgotten Realms then play it. IMO, people who wanted to just layer on blood abilities to another campaign setting like Forgotten Realms didn't quite get the idea of playing in a campaign setting. Birthright was a unique world like Athas was for Dark Sun it had its own history and way of fitting together which made it so.
IMO the problem with why Birthright didn't catch on was the timing. It was put out when TSR was in tremendous financial trouble and many products of the time were rushed into production - as evidenced by the extreme amount of editorials and inconsistencies in the Birthright products.
When TSR tried to refocus on a few product lines in order to be more financially solvent Birthright suffered and was not supported.
OOPs keyed to wrong quote. My bad.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
It may be your favorite, but I don't think it has caught on with almost all of the AD&D Player's Handbook owners.
I always thought that Birthright should be a generic D&D rules supplement, with a chapter or two devoted to Cerilia as a default setting. Ideally, I wish they follow what used to be a FR supplement turned D&D 3.5e hardcover Draconomicon (a combination of the FR dragon-themed supplement and Council of Wyrm) with a Birthright: The Lord Regent's Handbook (or somesuch title).
This was the quote it should have been attached to.
Yuck, IMO that is. If you wanted to play Forgotten Realms then play it. IMO, people who wanted to just layer on blood abilities to another campaign setting like Forgotten Realms didn't quite get the idea of playing in a campaign setting. Birthright was a unique world like Athas was for Dark Sun it had its own history and way of fitting together which made it so.
IMO the problem with why Birthright didn't catch on was the timing. It was put out when TSR was in tremendous financial trouble and many products of the time were rushed into production - as evidenced by the extreme amount of editorials and inconsistencies in the Birthright products.
When TSR tried to refocus on a few product lines in order to be more financially solvent Birthright suffered and was not supported.
(Yes, I'm an old-school D&D gamer.)
Granted, Cerilia is a unique campaign setting, but it is riding on the political system schtick that no other Wizards' published campaign settings have.
If Wizards going to do this and hopefully do this right, they should remember their credo: "Tools, not Rules." Offer the Birthright political system as a rules supplement, with a chapter or two devoted to Birthright/Cerilia (which can explain the "bloodline" mechanics).
i always like the myrmidon for the fighter(probably spelled that wrong) i loved the names they came up with then.And in answer the the question about active pbem's the Birthright.net forums would be place to check for that, either read through the posts or post a request of your own. There is my pbem (http://users.chariot.net.au/~hoss/pbem/) but it is full at the moment and until someone drops out I won't be accepting new players. You are welcome to put your name down though and I will contect you when a place opens up.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
If Wizards going to do this and hopefully do this right, they should remember their credo: "Tools, not Rules." Offer the Birthright political system as a rules supplement, with a chapter or two devoted to Birthright/Cerilia (which can explain the "bloodline" mechanics).
FWIW, Ranger REG, I think your idea is a great one.
Wyvern
But if I had to buy one or the other--the political system or the campaign setting--it would be the Birthright campaign setting itself: The racial rules, the monsters, the Cold Rider, everything.
This is completely different than saying that is a campaign setting.
I don't really see how a blood ability system could be done without the tie in of 'the old gods dying', otherwise it become a pseudo-psionic system for which there are already rules.
Originally posted by irdeggman
So basically what you want is a separate domain level rule set, something on the lines of Cry Havoc (for war units, etc.)
This is completely different than saying that is a campaign setting.
Um, yeah. He never called it a campaign setting. You were the one who used that term. You were also the first person in this thread to even mention blood abilities.
I agree that blood abilities are an important part of what makes Birthright unique. I also agree that they're Birthright-specific and wouldn't translate well to Forgotten Realms as is.* But as he said, they could easily be included in a section describing Cerilia as a sample campaign setting, without affecting the adaptability of the realm rules to other settings.
*(That said, the *concept* could be adapted; IIRC the Red Steel campaign in 2e had similar abilities that came from a completely different source, for example, and there was also a discussion on the Dragonstar mailing list some time back about using realm rules in DS and creating blood abilities for different dragon bloodlines.)
Wyvern
Originally posted by ebaatezu
i would love a realm rules product that actually made sense to me ,so then i could adapt it to the birthright setting
AEG has a book called Empire which sounds like it would be perfect for running Birthright, though I haven't seen it or read any reviews of it yet. I feel certain I've seen one or two other 3rd-party books that included realm rules, but I can't remember what they were.
Wyvern
If you want to drop the bloodline rules entirely and covert BR to another setting then it isn't hard. Just change bloodline to nobility and give each character a nobility rating (NR) based on thier level, background, deeds, etc.
So your standard character would have a nobility (or fame, or whatever) rating equal to their level. Nobles/Aristocrats would be higher, as they are born to rule, so maybe 1.5 x level for them. You then take into consderation the character's background. If they are the son of a king, then their NR would be much higher than a common adventurer. This would then allow you to pass on your NR to your children.
You could even take it one step further and give characters a famous/infamous level. So a noble paladin character who helped little old ladies across the street, slays dragons etc, would have a really high fame rating, while the evil villian who tears the wings off butterflies and tortures baby cows etc would have a negitive rating, or an infamous rating. Both could still rule kingdoms, but different sorts of kingdoms.
AFAIC, the Bloodline Abilities are campaign-specific to Cerilia. Not many settings will have that nor should that be required for a political system, especially one that is simple to use as BR system.
"Tools, not Rules."
it is all goodOriginally posted by Raesene_Andu
Fields of Blood is another book (due to be released next month) that deals with realm rules.
This is a D&D coming out next month?
Originally posted by Raesene_Andu
Fields of Blood is another book (due to be released next month) that deals with realm rules. In fact, it even goes as far as to call its rulers regents, its kingdoms realms, and it has resource points, which it shortens to RP. I think the designers of that product may have spent some time looking over the BR rules.
That's the one I was thinking of. I found it on my own this morning, but you beat me to the punch. Here's a link for anyone that wants to learn more. Obviously I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds great; you get rules for both realm government and mass combat in the same book! And the cover art is very nice too.
Wyvern
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
This is a D&D coming out next month?
Field of Blood: The Book of War is a d20 product to be published by Eden Studios.
Got a lot of fond memories of this setting...
Still play it every so often- And it offered a nice, simple (if not really detailed) way to run mass combat-
*Le sigh*
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
I saw, but it seems to focus on magic and stuff. I was wondering if it would be possible to port over something like Star Wars RPG using this book ...
It's possible. You may have to remove the "medieval fantasy" elements and add in the "futuristic fantasy" elements. Possible but difficult.
Originally posted by Cole Deschain
Ah, Birthright...
(...)
*Le sigh*
While I would love to ditto that, I must confess that I've never actually owned a Birthright book. I remember digging the Cerilian dragon in one of the MCs though, and after discovering it after 3E came out, it's my second (well, third, actually) favorite setting. (Ravenloft, Masque of the Red Death, Birthright.)
So: here's hoping somebody gets the resources to remake it in 3.5!
One question though: how would you handle bloodlines without seriously unbalancing the game? They do grant some pretty hefty abilities, after all...
peace