I heard about bane weapon but it is a long way from the power of the original (1ed and 2ed) weapon.
Shadu
It is not a small or a tiny design flaw. It is fundamental to the entire original DL campaign and has profound implications on play balance in the new DragonLance.
Quite apart from being “awesome” the new DragonLance is a PALE and PITIFUL imitation of its 1st edition glory. The design change is so profound that the original DragonLance module series’ design no longer makes sense and requires very substantial revision in later modules (which may have been the point of the editors all along in making this decision).
Let’s be clear about this and analyze it by the cold hard numbers.
--First Edition Lance--
From DragonLance Adventures Hardcover – page 94
--How the Lance is Forged--
Lesser: A DragonLance forged by only one of the Silver Arm and Hammer of Kharas has a +2 to hit and damage in addition to any other bonuses listed.
Greater: A Lance forged with both the Arm and Hammer is +4 to hit and damage in addition to any other bonuses listed below.
--The Basic Footman’s DragonLance--
+1 to hit unless thrown, then it is at -2
1d6 against man sized creatures
1d8 against large
Dragons: Damage equal to the wielder of the weapon’s hit points.
--The Basic Mounted Lance--
+2 to hit when mounted on a dragon
2d4+1 vs man sized foes
3d6 vs large
Dragons: Hit points of wielder +plus+ that of the dragon mount
--Analysis--
Given a Greater mounted Lance mounted on a dragon, therefore
The weapon under first editions was:
+6 to hit and did the damage of the wielder plus his dragon.
For the PCs who would fight like this towards the end of the module series, this essentially meant that in aerial combat, the evil dragon was dead instantly on a successful to hit roll. Given the THACO of, say, a 12th level knight with a +6 lance, that 1st edition dragon - of ANY age - was dying about 70% of the time on a PER ROUND basis, assuming an Armor class of –1 for the dragon.
(Design Note: In the hands of a Sturm at the time of DL9, a 12th level fighter with a THCO of 12 and 80 Hit points, he hit on a roll of 7 or higher).
Now, lets fast forward that to DLCS.
--The DragonLance under DLCS--
Lesser DragonLance: is a +2 dragon bane lance and has a hardness of 17 and 40 hit points. A magic enhancement of +1, which is superceded by the natural enhancement bonus of the Dragonmetal from which it is made.
Dragonmetal enhancement: weapon damage 1d4 or 1d6 (+1 enhancement bonus) or 1d8, 1d10 or 1d12 +2 enhancement bonus for greater.
Stats are otherwise the same as a standard lance in DMG, unless used on a dragon then it has the bonus listed above.
A greater DragonLance is a +4 dragon bane lance. hardness of 23 and 70 hit points
--The Special Dragon Damage--
When used against an evil dragon a greater DragonLance deals 1 point of permanent con drain with every hit in addition to the lances normal damage. If the wielder scores a critical hit against the evil dragon the lance deals a number of points of permanent con drain equal to the wielder's character level.
THERE IS NO BONUS LISTED FOR EXTRA CON DRAIN FROM A MOUNTED LANCE
--The Effect--
We will give our 3E 12th level Sturm some bonuses to hit, a Strength of 17 and some weapon specialization and RIDE DRAGON bonuses for good measure and say he’s up there with at least +5 to hit. Hell – give him a +8 to hit from various stats, feats and skills…
The Greater DragonLance will give him an additional +6 to hit as a bane weapon – and he’ll need a lot more than that to even hit the thing.
An ancient Red drake has an AC of 39, 527 Hit points and a Con of 29. You’ll be needing situational bonuses, spell enhancements and a 20 on the die roll to hit it in the first place.
A Heavy Lance crits on a 20.
Never mind that the chance of even hitting the dragon has plummeted, 12th level Sturm is going to have to critical hit on the dragon THREE TIMES before it is going to die.
In the interim, the Ancient Red Drake is going to burn Sturm to a cinder.
--The Net Change in Effect:--
You go from having a Player Character armed with a Greater Mounted DragonLance which is capable of killing an ancient Red Drake in one round of combat 70% of the time to a character that will be capable of killing an ancient drake - under the most favorable of conditions possible – about 1 time in 8000 tries – assuming even then he survives (which is unlikely).
So what’s the problem?
The problem is simple: The first edition Lances were the ultimate weapon and Quest item of the game which the party secures only towards the end of a VERY long epic quest. Yes, they were in the hands of a 10th level plus fighter VERY powerful.
But the editors have gone too far. The 3E Lances are far too weak.
In my opinion, the DragonLance is reduced from uber_Weapon to afterthought. The weapon has been scaled back so much and the dragons scaled UP so much that the War of the Lance no longer makes sense as depicted in the first edition module series. The quest for the Lance is reduced to a sideshow.
The current DLCS design is broken when it comes to the Lance and the power of Dragons on Krynn and we will NOT implement the Lance in such a fashion.
If this is all the Lances do - just exactly WHY was Takhisis retreating back in to the portal from Huma in the first place?
_________________
.Robert
*Dragonlance Adventures* www.dladventures.com
DL-1 "Dragons of Despair": *Under Construction*
irc.neverwinterconnections.com#DLAdventures
Give the new stats for dragonlances a try. See if it works out okay. If so, great. If not, then there are plenty of alternates out there, including some on the Nexus.
But I have to agree that the 3e ruling is weaker than I hoped and unfortunately what I expected.
It would have been a better idea to think about a more unique and more powerful ability for the lances.
At the moment they are not much different from any xyz Dragonbane-Lance found on other worlds.
Kilamar
"I don't see this as a "design flaw" so much as looking at dragonlances in a new light. As one designs for a game system, one must look through the "lens" of that system.
Oh *come on*.
You change a weapon from a 70% chance of a DEAD ANCIENT DRAKE in one round to a 1 in 8000 chance of killing it over three rounds under the most unlikely and favorable conditions possible a change which is NOT a design flaw????
WHY pray tell, call it "DragonLance"? Why not just call it "Krynn" and reduce the Lance to the footnote it is under 3E?
Trampas - either your reasoning is hopelessly flawed or you are not being honest for fear of alienating the affections of those you know. I am sorry to state it so plainly, but I can't be the only long time fan who can calculate the odds and read the Monster Manual.
I am sorry - all the soft and squishy words you care to try DISSOLVE under a factual cold, hard, statistical analysis.
There is not a chance in Hades that I will try to rationalize the Quest of the Heroes of the Lance to find a DragonLance with those properties. My math is fine - I don't have to simulate it 8000 times to know when a critical design choice has been hopelessly fumbled. I will not design a computer module featuring a weapon which makes no sense.
You cannot populate a world with 3E dragons in unmodified form (Mistake #1) and then reduce the power of the Lance so abyssmally (Mistake #2).
It's plainly and obviously a broken design.
Okay, yes the Dragonlances under went some serious editing. Yes, they are FAR weaker than they originally were in 1st edition (and they weren't changed in 2nd edition), but even in the books, a single blow with a dragonlance was not enough to kill a dragon. EVER. One blow from a 1st edition game DL could theoretically kill even a Great Wyrm. Nope, not gonna do it. It takes away from the thrill of the combat with one of Krynn's most powerful creatures, even if it is one of the "iconic weapons."
That said, does NO ONE NOTICE the section on unique dragonlances?
The "standard" dragonlances are the "carbon copies" made during the Dragon Wars, not with all of the care and concern that went into crafting a specific weapon, like Huma's Lance or the Lance of Thereos (the first one he crafted and used to break the Whitestone).
The point is that Dragonlances shouldn't be "common" items. They do all share common characteristics, but in the end, each and every one of them really should be unique and personalized, just as every single magic item in Dragonlance tends to be... it makes the game, and the novels, far more interesting and visceral. ;) Trust me on this one.
Christopher
The problem with the approach to the DragonLance in the DLCS is that it is struggling with the fallout of the series own making.
In the original DL campaign, we didn't have to worry about the power levl of the Lance - as the PCs didn't have it and could not get it until very late in the campaign.
By the time they did get it - they were using it in circumstances where it was not an unbalancing factor - but the weapon which turned the tide of the war. (Better stated - it WAS unbalancing, as it was *intended to be* under the circumstances where it becomes available). For every dead drake the PC slew there appeared dozen more to take its place.
And after the great battles...well the campaign was over wasn't it? You didn't have to worry about the Lance's power, long term.
(And that's the other problem with using 3E dragons in unmodifed form. They are meant to be rare and wondrous creatures - not the Shrieking Hordes of Takhisis, lined up in orderly flights attacking your army. And if that is they way it happened, you NEED an awesome weapon like the Lance to defeat them.)
But fast forward to a campaign which takes place AFTER the classic series and things get messy.
In other words - you are trying to fix a 5th Age problem created by an original series design which never took into account a 5th age of any kind.
The problem is, by "fixing" the Lance for 5th age use, you BREAK the Lance's design for use during the War of the Lance.
Might I suggest another approach?
Up the power of the Lance back to its 1st edition roots during the War of the Lance, but make the weapon's magic time limited. It is tied to being in the presence of the dragon metal pool. When it is removed from the pool's blessed auara, it rapidly loses its effectiveness over a period of weeks / months and loses its Armegeddon effect on dragons.
That way, by the time the 5th age rolls around, they can work like you have them - but they are still the fell weapon they once were in the War of the Lance.
Amd if you like, some special few Lances can have part of their original effect preserved through great alchemical effort on part of the smith.
Because one way or the other, you are breaking the design of the series. Either the War of the Lance took place under conditions where the Lance could not be a decisive factor, or it was so powerful in the War of the Lance that it makes dragons little yappy dogs in a later Age.
The key is not to "fix" the Lance for use in one Age so that it breaks the game's design in another - but to have it work in both.
He hops on his trusty Silver and rolls a natural 20 and slams his Lance into an Ancient Red which is normally only killable by FOUR 23rd level characters.
1d12+2 (Greater Dragonlance) + 2d6 (Bane) +24 (Power Attack 12x2 for two handed weapon) +4 (STR bonus) +2 (Weapon Spec.) = 56 x 3 (Spirited Charge) = 168 x 3 (Critical) = 504.
Additional CON drain = 13 points. Additional HP loss due to CON drain = 204 HP!
504 points of damage to a CON reduced total of 323 for the Ancient Red = OBLITERATION. In one attack. What normal Dragonbane lance does over 200 extra points of damage per critical?
Against the Ancient's 39 AC, without the Power Attack 12th Level Sturm would need a 16 or higher (+12 BAB +6 Lance +4 STR +1 Weapon Focus) and would do 96 points of damage on a Crit +204 from the CON drain and would take a whopping two hits to kill it. Without rolling maximum damage.
Can a 12th level character (ridiculously outmatched vs. a CR 23 foe) absolutely obliterate an Ancient Red with one blow? Yes. That's how powerful a Greater Dragonlance is. So powerful you can do something that no character in any DL novel ever did.
Would it be smart to rely on natural 20's to save your ass? Not particularly. Which is why the Solamnic Knights devised traps such as those in the High Clerist's Tower that enabled dozens of DL carrying knights to unleash their weapons on single helpless Blues that answered the call of the Orb.
Originally posted by Steel_Wind
Because one way or the other, you are breaking the design of the series. Either the War of the Lance took place under conditions where the Lance could not be a decisive factor, or it was so powerful in the War of the Lance that it makes dragons little yappy dogs in a later Age.
The key is not to "fix" the Lance for use in one Age so that it breaks the game's design in another - but to have it work in both.
Well, first of all, how is it breaking the design of the series? The Dragonlances are iconic weapons, powerful artifacts capable of being forged by the hands of man. They are not so called "Epic" weapons. They helped the forces of good turn the tide of war, but they did not win the war... that was the heroes (whether the Heroes of the Lance or otherwise)... the story and the setting has always been about the characters, not the nifty toys they get to play with.
Currently, it doesn't "break" the game in any Era. Yes, the Dragonlances will be getting a key focus in the War of the Lance era sourcebook. There will be nifty abilities described and the like. Now, let's take a look at our "broken" lances, shall we?
Let's go ahead and use one of the big boys, the greater dragonlance: a +4 dragon bane lance (it's also supposed to be a holy weapon, but they tweaked that so that it doesn't affect damage, but I digress). Against dragons, the weapon is a +6 weapon that's going to automatically deal an additional 2d6 points of damage plus a permanent point of Constitution damage. In the hands of a 15th-level fighter, for example, who deals a critical (Improved Crit feat'd be handy, yes?) is going to deal 15 points of PERMANENT Constitution damage. No saving throw. Against an ancient Red Dragon (average Constitution 31), one critical hit is going to reduce that dragon's Con instantly to 16, affecting that dragon's hps (reducing the dragon's hp by 272 instantly, which is almost half of its maximum average hit points) and reducing its Fort save by 8 points. No, not instant kill, but wanna know something? The lances in the DLCS make no differentiation between footman and mounted lances...so this would be all from a fighter not mounted on dragonback. So, come up with a variant about Mounted Dragonlances for your campaign 'til the War of the Lance sourcebook comes out.
A'ight, methinks that's enough venting from me for now ;)
Christopher
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Would it be smart to rely on natural 20's to save your ass? Not particularly. Which is why the Solamnic Knights devised traps such as those in the High Clerist's Tower that enabled dozens of DL carrying knights to unleash their weapons on single helpless Blues that answered the call of the Orb.
*laughs*
Beat me to it, Kai and you even did more math than I did. ;)
Christopher
I wouldnt want a lowly 10th level group to be able to smash down a great wyrm red in one hit....that'd be so unfulfilling as a DM. Oh well....you don't seem inclined to see it any other way anyhow.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
[b]Steel Wind....are you not perhaps taking into account what horrible things the con damage can do to the dragon? hmmmm.....for every 2 points of con drained the dragon loses 1 hit point per hit die......
No "maybe" to it. I certainly DID overlook it. If that's the way the rule works *instantly* then the damage of the Lance by way of con reduction is way nastier than I thought and all is well.
Where is that rule stated - I want to read it :-)
(No offence, but from reading Chris' initial response, I'd say that he overlooked it too :-) ).
Originally posted by Steel_Wind
No "maybe" to it. I certainly DID overlook it. If that's the way the rule works *instantly* then the damage of the Lance by way of con reduction is way nastier than I thought and all is well.
Where is that rule stated - I want to read it :-)
(No offence, but from reading Chris' initial response, I'd say that he overlooked it too :-) ).
*smirks slightly and points downwards to his signature*
I didn't overlook anything, hence my second post because then I had to go and explain everything in further detail.
Granted, I didn't write the Dragonlances, but I am writing the Dragonlance adventure trilogy, so I am well up on the details of the book, just an FYI ;)
Christopher
Originally posted by Kai Lord
1d12+2 (Greater Dragonlance) + 2d6 (Bane) +24 (Power Attack 12x2 for two handed weapon) +4 (STR bonus) +2 (Weapon Spec.) = 56 x 3 (Spirited Charge) = 168 x 3 (Critical) = 504.
Additional CON drain = 13 points. Additional HP loss due to CON drain = 204 HP!
It's not quite as much as that, since your math is a little off. Firstly, when used from a mount the lance is one-handed, so Power Attack damage is +12. You don't multiply additional damage dice from effects like bane with a critical, either. A lance deals 1d8 damage, not 1d12, and when combining multipliers in D&D you don't apply them one after another but add them together -1 (x3 and x3 is x5).
So assuming Sturm hits from a charging mount, and gets a critical hit, he'll do 5d8 (weapon damage x5) + 2d6 (bane) + 60 (power attack x5) + 30 (enhancement bonus x5) + 20 (Str bonus x5) + 10 (weapon spec x5) damage, or 5d8+2d6+120, with a maximum possible result of 172.
If you allowed the lance to be used two-handed, which isn't normally the case on a charging mount, it'd go up by +60 to 232.
The real damage from the dragonlance, which makes it just as thematically deadly as the original, is the Con damage. Sturm, with a critical hit, strips away 6 x dragon's HD in hp with one strike, also lowering the dragon's Fort saves by -6 and any Fort-based DCs by -6. Quite potent.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Stormprince
*smirks slightly and points downwards to his signature*
Oh my .. now that's funny. Look at you pulling rank.
Well I'm glad this was discussed. After my initial reading of the lances I was dissapointed. I felt the weapon that the entire series was named after had been nerfed and nuetered in one swipe of the writer's pen. I haven't 100% followed your example but am going to crunch the numbers for my self.
-18 con? dude, there is no way you can't say thats powerful.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's not quite as much as that, since your math is a little off.
Correction; my math wasn't off, it was dead on. My recollection of the rules was a little off though. ;) I forgot about Bane damage not multiplying, but technically by the letter of the rules Lances would give double damage for a Power Attack on a charge because its still classified as a two-handed weapon according to the weapon tables in the PHB.
I don't believe that was the idea of the designers, and will probably be corrected in errata or Sage Advice, but the way its written, the double damage would apply.
By the way the trap in the high tower was more designed too kill lot of dragon with a army of lower level.... Army don't always have soldier of level 12+ at hand.
Shadu
Originally posted by Kai Lord
I don't believe that was the idea of the designers, and will probably be corrected in errata or Sage Advice, but the way its written, the double damage would apply.
Right, which is why I added in the comment about the additional +60 damage.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by themeecer
Oh my .. now that's funny. Look at you pulling rank.
Well I'm glad this was discussed. After my initial reading of the lances I was dissapointed. I felt the weapon that the entire series was named after had been nerfed and nuetered in one swipe of the writer's pen. I haven't 100% followed your example but am going to crunch the numbers for my self.
I don't pull rank often, but when it comes to something from one of the books that I helped to write and edit, yeah, I think I do know what's in there ;)
Christopher
You see? You can learn something new if you stop by the message board once a day.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Two words: Power. Critical.
Yes.