Date White Red Black
383 Palin Majere (H) Justarius Dalamar
356 Dunbar Mastermate Justarius Dalamar(H)
324 Par-Salian(H) Justarius La Donna
~300 Par-Salian(H) Belize La Donna
The truth is, if there are pc wizards and sorcerers, they are going to be interacting with members of the conclave. I am amazed that even with epic rules around, they are not being used in any of this material. It is clear to me that the members of the conclave, if not the heads of the conclave should be epic characters. These are the most powerful casters on Krynn, aside from perhaps some old Irda still floating around, the scions, and some dragons. I had to create all their npc information. In my campaign, I have Dalamar as head of the conclave with his tower in Palanthas, and I still have Dunbar mastermate heading the white robes at wayerth and Justarias as head of read robes. These are 30th+ level characters. You may think that that is getting close to the level of the gods in dieties and demigods, but you guessed it, I rewrote all the gods to be about 60th level.
Here is my layout of the conclave in my 4th age campaign(as you can see, I was not happy with the idea that it was mostly humans). I used what names I knew from the books for all casters and made them conclave members. The rest I had to make up myself(Shame on you, WOTC):
Align. Title/Responsibility Race Class
White
Dunbar Mastermate CG Master of White Robes Ergothian Wizard(27)/Fighter(10)
IIllii Qwientari TN Interior Affairs Barriur Sorcerer(32)/Priest of Chislev(10)
Antimodes Recruitment Human Wizard(19)
Fenthae Silondarion LG Chief Seer Silvanesti Diviner (34)
LG Overseer of Defence Half-Gold Dragon Sorcerer (27)
Gerathi Jelmarin Keeper of the Key
Red
Justarius LN Master of Red Robes Human Wizard 35
Guerrand DiThon TN Security, Reconnaissance Ergothian Wizard 18 / Planeshifter 10
Esme TN Liason to Temple of the Moons Human Wizard 28
Jenna CN Recruitment Human Wizard 18
Sissiyra Morjinat LN Watcher of the Doors ? Wizard (40)
Silvandeya Silondarion TN Head of Diplomacy Silvanesti Sorcerer 25
Black
Dalamar LE Head of Conclave Drow Sorcerer(38)/ Mindbender(10)
Dnix Tilendron CE Recruitment Rakshasa Sorcerer (22)
Moghedien CE Chief Overseer of Libraries Human Lich Wizard (24)
Fedrix Tornadem CE Chief Overseer of Artifacts Theiwer Dwarf Sorcerer (36)
Dagiomier NE Security Qualinesti Elf
Xyxix Pixslieighniegh CE Enforcement ½ Selurian Dragon Sorcerer 30/ Rogue 5
Elstron Darkstar CE Assasination Wizard 24 / Blood Magus 10
As you can see, my Dalamar is essentially a 45rd level caster! Also, I could not settle with him being a "silvanesti," so I made him a Drow through and through!
Here are the rules I came up with for becoming a renegade or being removed from an order(The first rules are from either the 1st for second edition books, I can't remember):
Origionally, the Wizards of High Sorcery had only three rules, given them by their three gods but honored equally by all Wizards of High Sorcery:
Solinari's Law: All wizards are brothers in their order. All orders are brothers in the power.
Lunitari's Law: The places of High Wizardry are held in common among all the orders and no sorcery is to be used there in anger against fellow wizards.
Nuitari's Law: The world beyond the walls of the towers may bring brother against brother and order against order, but such is the way of the universe.
After the third dragon war, the following laws were added to be followed by members of all orders.
Neutral Ground is considered to be the Towers of High Sorcery, The library at Palanthas, and any temple of the Moons. Also, mages working on any Tower sponsered quest or project are considered to be on neutral ground for the duration of the project or quest. Also, any mage should expect resonable privacy in his dwelling, unless he is pursued there or refuses face his opposition in timely manner.
Obedience: The wizard is obligated to defend magic at all costs. Also, aid must be rendered, if asked, to any fellow Wizard of High Sorcery who is not acting against the wizard at that time. The wizard can never attack a fellow Wizard of High Sorcery on neutral ground (such as a Tower of High Sorcery), even if their purposes are directly contradictory. Further, each Wizard of High Sorcery must obey the Conclave, especially the Masters of the three orders. If two or more Conclave members issue conficting commands to one wizard, the Master of the wizard’s order arbitrates which is more valid. Theoretically, the Head of the Conclave outranks the other two Masters in a similar fashion. However, situations where the Head of the Conclave issues a command to a member of an order besides his or her own that conflicts with the will of that order’s Master are extremely rare, and have occurred only five times in the Order’s history. Such a situation would be so politically charged that a Wizard would do just as well to obey either the Master or the Head of the Conclave as dictated by the Wizard’s own personal judgement. Failure to follow any of the above rules will result in punishment, up to and including expulsion from the Order. Any expelled character is held in custody by the Order. Once remanded to the order of robes that once claimed the expelled wizard, that wizard is treated according to that orders policy on Renegade Wizards, resulting in execution or (if the expelled character was a White Robe) banishment to another world.
Pursuit of Renegades: Each Wizard of High Sorcery is required to report any magic-user who is not of the Order. If circumstances do not allow the Wizard to report the Renegade to the Order, then Renegade must be recruited, and if that fails, neutralized. If the Renegade Mage is reported, the Order will either order the reporting Wizard to recruit the Renegade (if the Renegade is of equal or lesser power) or send a more powerful Wizard to recruit (if the Renegade is more powerful). The fate of a Renegade who refuses to join the Order depends on the individuals on the scene. White-Robed Wizards capture Renegades, then use powerful magic to exile them to other worlds or planes (the worlds of Oerth and Toril are generally favored for this purpose). Red-Robed Wizards will attempt to capture the Renegade to be executed at the Tower, whereas Black-Robed Wizards usually kill the refusing mage on the spot.
Here are my additional rules about this stuff:
Raislin officially became a renegade shortly after occupying the Tower of High Sorcery at Palanthas. However, Par-Salian allowed Raistlin to continue as a renegade, clinging to the hope that Raistlin would “learn from the errors of his ways,” and return to the white or red orders. Par-Salian, at the least, hoped that Raistlin would banish Takhisis and save the world. In any case, the combined might of the Towers would not have defeated Raistlin, as Dalamar cooly recounted to the conclave, “The wish spells of his enemies were useless against the power of my shalafi. He had long held the key to the Lost Citadel of the gods, which he tricked Gilean to provide him with. He quickly wove himself immunity to mortal sorcery.” Yet the conclave did send Dalamar to spy on Raistlin in spite of their quaking fears. The conclave now has a much more direct attitude. Renegades are no longer given quarter. They join or die. With Dalamar’s leadership, the conclave as much power as before the cataclysm; however, most of this power walks in Black Robes.
The Law of Belize, Fistandantilus, and Raistlin: No Mage of High Sorcery will attempt to enter the Lost Citadel, will attempt divine acention, or will attempt to make war on the gods on this prime-material plane. Travelling in time is likewise forbidden without the consent of the conclave.
Preservation of Knowledge: The magi will not allow harm to come to any arcane text or to any artifact. Texts of dark or forbidden lore or of a dangerous nature will be taken to a Tower of High Sorcery for proper handling. Artifacts will be taken to the Tower of High Sorcery, and only destroyed by agreement of the Council of Three.
Respect for Magic: Mages of High Sorcery will maintain control over all undead, constructs, elementals, outsiders, or dominated creatures/persons. Mages must not allow their experiments to run rampant.
Laws of the White Order
1. Unity: Magi of the White Order may not attack or violate the privacy or well-being of other white robed magi. The Mage will aid brothers in his order whenever feasible.
2. Creation of Undead: The Magi of the White Order may not create Undead.
3. Creation of Constructs: The Magi of the White Order may not create flesh golems, bone golems, or other constructs that require the body parts of creatures.
4. Use of Creatures: Magi of the White Order may not use good-aligned creatures to serve their own purposes when this would harm the creature. For instance, if a deva is gated in, the white robe may not use this deva to set off traps, perform dangerous experiements on, etc. Note that this does not apply to the Summoning line of spells.
5. Perversion: The Magi of the White Order will not pervert existing life forms.
6. Maintaining Respect for Magic: The Magi of the White Order may not kill or maim the good-aligned citizenry of Krynn, nor use his magic to fool them, such as through the use of fool’s gold, polymorph self, friends, or illusion, unless this involves the protection of magic, self, or Tower interests.
7. Ecology: The Magi of the White Order will not permanently alter an ecosystem, either through weather patterns, summoning persistant creatures, or creating any other long lasting magical effect without consent of conclave. The Magi will also refrain from the use of spells that draw their power from life-force.
8. Servitude: The Magi of the White Order will release all dominated or charmed creatures in a timely manner, unless these creatures are deemed to be dangerous, in which case they should be banished from this plane.
Laws of the Red Order
1. Unity: Magi of the Red Order may not attack or violate the privacy or well-being of other red robed magi. The Mage will aid brothers in his order whenever feasible.
2. Creation of Undead: The Magi of the Red Order may not create free-willed Undead.
3. Creation of Constructs: The Magi of the Red Order may not create flesh golems, bone golems, or other constructs that require the body parts of unwilling creatures.
4. Perversion: The Magi of the Red Order will not pervert existing life forms.
5. Maintaining Respect for Magic: The Magi of the Red Order will not kill or maim the general citizenry of Krynn, unless this involves the protection of magic, self, or Tower interests, or works towards maintaining a balance.
6. Ecology: The Magi of the Red Order will not permanently alter an ecosystem, either through weather patterns, summoning persistant creatures, or creating any other long lasting magical effect without consent of conclave. The Magi cannot power spells from the life-force of unwilling creatures.
Laws of the Black Order
1. Maintaining Respect for Magic: The Black robe mage will not be discovered in the maiming or killing of the general populace of Krynn.
2. Ecology: The Magi of the Black Order will not permanently alter an ecosystem, either through weather patterns, summoning persistent creatures, or creating any other long lasting magical effect without consent of conclave.
MOON CYCLES
I have stuck with the origional 2nd edition info on moon cycles, using the exact same numbers for number of increased spells, increased DC(use saving throw modifier), and additional spell levels. I wrote a program that calculates the moon cycles(based on 2nd ed Tales of the Lance) and weather(according to dmg weather pattern tables). I usually run the program for 2 years of data, then save it as a doc file and print out about 5 pages(100 days or so) every once and a while as time goes by. I also use it to keep track of what happens on each day. It seems like High sanction happens every year or so, but I am ****** that they did not provide a date to moon position corrospondance based on the books so we can keep exact track of moon positions on the Krynn calander.
I really like this excerpt since it has storms in every climate at High sanction! Nice coincidence!
Spring Blossom 2, 359:
lun->WAXING nun->HIGH sol->HIGH ;
Weather: Cold Climate(Snow), Temperate(hail), Desert(Hot, Windy)
Notes:__________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Spring Blossom 3, 359:
lun->WAXING nun->HIGH sol->HIGH ;
Weather: Cold Climate(SnowStorm), Temperate(ThunderStorm), Desert(DustStorm)
Notes:__________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Spring Blossom 4, 359:
lun->HIGH nun->HIGH sol->HIGH ; Nuit-Lun Sol-Nuit
Weather: Cold Climate(Snow), Temperate(rain), Desert(Hot, Windy)
Notes:__________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Spring Blossom 5, 359:
lun->HIGH nun->HIGH sol->HIGH ; All Three moons aligned
Weather: Cold Climate(Blizzard), Temperate(WindStorm), Desert(Down pour)
Notes:__________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Spring Blossom 6, 359:
lun->WANING nun->HIGH sol->HIGH ; Sol-Nuit
Weather: Cold Climate(Cold,calm), Temperate(moderate), Desert(Hot, calm)
Notes:__________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Spring Blossom 7, 359:
lun->WANING nun->HIGH sol->HIGH ; Sol-Nuit
Weather: Cold Climate(Cold,calm), Temperate(moderate), Desert(Hot, calm)
Notes:__________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
I have also rewritten the cooperative feat because I think the one in the book sucks for what the conclave should be able to do if they come together(This still needs some work):
Cooperative Magic Feat
The Cooperative magic feat works as follows: All participants in a group spell must have the cooperative magic feat. All participants must know and have the spell memorized or on their sorcerer spell lists. All casters use up one slot when the spell is cast. The spell then takes a full round to cast, taking affect on the inititive immediately before the casting of the spell on the next round. If any participant fails a concentration check, the spell is wasted. The spell casting gains the following benefits:
1. The DC of the spell is the DC of the lead caster plus one for each participant.
2. The caster level of the spell is the caster level of the lead caster, plus ½ of the caster levels of the next highest caster, plus ¼ of the caster level of the next highest caster, etc., with a minumum of plus 1 caster level.
3. If the casters know a metamagic feat, this feat can be applied to the spell, as long as all participants can cast the enhanced version of the spell.
4. Each caster must be within 10’ of another caster.
The other major information missing was the structure of the different divine orders. Who are the head preists of the different gods? What is the role of the priests of the moon gods in the Towers? Where are the main temples of these gods located? So since this information was missing, I have added that, too. It is essential in a campaign to know where different temples are located, especially when half the party is fried and of mixed alignments so they need to get help at different temples. What kind of garb do clerics of each god wear(well I cant post that but I have researched medieval dress and have drawn pictures of a cleric of each god. This adds much flavor to the campaign!) Here is my info:
Paladine
Crysania Tarinius, Reverend Daughter of Paladine
LG Human Priestess of Paladine(33)
Residence: Palanthas
Location of Main Temple: Palanthas
Location of Auxiliary Temples: Qualinost, Silvanost, Solanthas, Kendermore, Hylo, Kaolyn, Thorbardin, Castle Uth Wistan
Mishakel
Goldmoon, Chosen Prophet of Mishakal
LG Human Priestess of Mishakal(27)
Residence: Plains of Abinasia
Siswik, Prophet of Mishakal
LG Human Priest of Mishakal(23)
Residence: Palanthas
Location of Main Temple: Crystalmir Lake near Solace
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Palanthas, Qualinost, Silvanost, Solanthas, Tarsis
Majere
Quan-Li, Chosen Prophet of Majere
LG Githzeri Priest of Majere/Monk/Seer(18/7/4)
Residence: Ash Monestary
Location of Main Temple: Ash Monestary
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Claren-Elian
Kiri-Jolith
Colby Calistan, High Clerist of Kiri-Jolith
LG Human Priest of Kiri-Jolith/Solamnic Knight of the Sword (18/10)
Residence: Solanthus
Location of Main Temple: Solanthus
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Alphens(Mithas), Ravinost(Silvanesti), Tarsis
Branchala
Nolad Silvanos, Chosen Prophet of Branchala
CG Qualinesti Priest of Branchala/Bard(22/12)
Residence: Qualinost
Location of Main Temple: Qualinost
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Silvanost, Wendel Forest, Hylo, Southern Ergoth
Habbakuk
Thrilmaldur Legyndir, Chosen Prophet of Habbakuk
NG Dimernesti Priest of Habbakuk/Wizard of the White Robes(21/8)
Residence: Dimernost
Location of Main Temple: Dimernost
Evien Quickhoof, Chosen Prophet of Habbakuk
NG Wendle(Centaur) Priest of Habbakuk/Ranger (18/11)
Residence: Wendle Woods
Location of Main Temple: Balinest
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Solanthus, Qualinost, Silvanost, Shallsea, Habbakuk’s Necklace(Southern Dairly Plains), Kyrie Aeries(Mithas), Good Sirine Islands
Solinari
LG Silvanesti Priest of Solinari/Wizard of the White Robes(16/9)
Location of Main Temple: Towers of High Sorcery at Wayerth
Location of Auxiliary Temples:
Gilean
Bertrem, Starmaster of Gilean
TN Human Priest of Gilean/Monk(22/8)
Residence: Palanthas
Location of Main Temple: Palanthas University and Great Library
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Academy of Metaphysical and Epistemological Studies(Merwick,Chistyne )
Chislev
Timion LandSlide, StarMaster of Chislev
TN Mountain Barbarian Priest of Chislev/Barbarian(18/6)
Residence: Karolis Mountains
Location of Main Temple:
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Kagonost, Qualinost, Endscape, Estwilde
Sirrion
Morovar Bergg, ArchMaster of Sirrion
LN Palanthian Priest of Sirrion(24)
Residence: Palanthas
Location of Main Temple: Palanthas
Location of Auxiliary Temples: Any volcanoe, All gnome and dwarf citidels
Zivilyn
Thelonius, Starmaster of Zivilyn
LN Asimon Priest of Zivilyn/Ranger(20/10)
Location of Main Temple: Endscape Forest
Location of Auxiliary Temples: Thorbardin, Wendle Forest, Qualinost, Palanthas
Takhisis
Karalas, Red Dragon Highlord and Nightlord of Takhisis
LE Half-Red Dragon Half-Fiend Priest of Takhisis/Fighter(28/17)
Residence: Nereka
Location of Main Temple: Nereka
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Nereka, Kernen, Sanction, Daltigoth, Kuri-Khan, Lemish, Fedron(Nzunta in Spine of Taladas)
Notes: After the War of the Lance, Takhisis decided that many of her human leaders were inept, and has placed at the head of her priesthood a specially trained warrior native to Baator.
Chemosh
Chinog Mordrellion, DreadLord of Chemosh
CE Human Morg(see 3rd dark sun for Morg info) Priest of Chemosh/Renegade Necromancer/True Necromancer(22/5/10)
Residence: Misty Ilse
Location of Main Temple: Misty Isle
Largest Auxiliary Temples: Shallsea, Nightlund, several in Chorane, Souther Ergoth(Ruins of They Demion), Sar-la-Kante
Notes: The cult of Chemosh is very unorginized. There is hardly any correspondence between these temples.
Hiddukel
Count Montillion, NightLord of Hiddukel
CE Dwarven Priest of Hiddukel/Sorcerer of the Black Robes(26/7)
Residence: Kernen
Location of Main Temple: Kernen
Largest Auxilliary Temples: Mahkwabi, Khuri-Khan, Zhakar
Zebiom
CE Mahkwab Priestess of Zebiom/Renegade Sorcerer(22/18)
Residence: Mahkwabi
Location of Main Temple: Mahkwabi
Location of Auxiliary Temples: Flotsam, Death’s Teeth, Palanthas, Kalaman, Lacynos, Port Balifor, Evil Sirine Islands
Notes: The priesthood of Zebiom is also unorginized. There is little corrospondence between the Mahkwabi and the worshipers of Zebiom on Ansalon.
This is this the tip of the Ice Burg, I have several hundred pages of Dragonlance converted to 3rd edition, including the stats of all the Gods and major NPC's. I have been playing thrid edition Dragonlance since 3rd edition came out. I just know that I will not be satisfied with the WOTC product, so I had to do everything my self.
Here is a taste of Paladine:
Paladine
Sorcerer 45
Colossal Dragon
Divine Rank: 18
Hit Dice: 53d12+1272(drag.) plus 45d4+1080(Sor.) (3,168 hp)
Initiative: +16 (+4 Improved Init., +12 dex)
Speed: 180 ft., 360 ft. fly (perfect), swim 180 ft., climb 90 ft.
AC: 111 (-8 size, +12 dex, +18 divine, +60 natural (18 + 42), +29 deflection)
Attacks*: Mace of the Dragon +127/+122/+118/+113 melee; or Staff of Draco-Paladine +159/+154/+149/+144; or Dragon attacks: Bite +151 melee, 2 claws +146 melee, 2 wings +146 melee, tail slap +146 melee; or spell +151 melee touch or +128 ranged touch; *Always rolls a 20 on attack rolls; roll die to check for critical hit. (+35 str, +20 dragon, +39 epic, +1 weapon focus(mace), +18 divine bonus, +4 divine weapon focus(mace))
Damage*: Mace of the Dragon 2d8+64/15-20; or Staff of Draco-Paladine 1d6+45; or Bite 4d8+35/19-20, claw 2d8+17, wing 4d6+17, tail slap 4d6+52; or by spell. *Always does maximum damage (Mace 80 points, staff 51 points, bite 69 points, claw 33 points, wing 41 points, tail slap 76 points)
Face/Reach: 40 ft. by 80 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapons, crush, tail sweep, spells, spell-like abilities, domain powers, salient divine abilities, spells, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Divine immunities, fire immunity, DR 53/+4, spontaneous casting of divine spells, understand, speak, and read all languages, and speak directly to all beings within 18 miles, remote communication, godly realm, teleport without error, at will, plane shift at will, blindsight 18 miles, scent, darkvision, water breathing, SR 70, divine aura (18 miles, DC 57)
Saves*: Fort +77(+12 dragon, +24 con, +39 epic, +2 great fort), Ref +65( +12 dragon, +12 dex, +39 epic, +2 lightning reflexes), Will +77 (+12 dragon, + 24 wis, +39 epic, +2 Iron Will) *Always receives a 20 on saves.
Abilities: Str 80(+35), Dex 34(+12), Con 59(+24), Int 48(+19), Wis 59(+24), Chr 68(+29)
Cloak of the Dragon: +12 all abilities (works in any form)
Mace of the Dragon: +10 keen dancing heavy mace of Disruption(undead without divine traits Will Save (DC 57) or be eradicated.)
Staff of Draco-Paladine: +8 Quarterstaff, acts as Staff of the Magi and a Rod of Greater Quickening. The staff can also be transformed into a +8 True Dragonlance, which deals as many points of damage to an evil dragon as Paladine’s remaining hit-points.
Call Wryms (unique salient divine ability): Regardless of location, Paladine can call seven great wrym gold dragons to come to his aid. These dragons can begin acting on the next round. If one or more are killed, it takes Paladine a full week to key a new dragon to this spell.
Here is a taste of my Branchala:
Branchala
Bard 40/Ranger 20
Medium-Size Outsider
Divine Rank: 14
Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (outsider) plus 40d6+400 (Bard) plus 20d10+200 (ranger) (1,400 hp)
Initiative: +34 (+4 Improved Init., +30 dex) (supreme initiative—always goes first)
Speed: 60 ft., burrow 60 ft., swim 60 ft., climb 30 ft.
AC: 103 (+30 dex, +14 divine, +27 natural, +22 deflection, +10 chain mail)
Attacks*: Rapier of the Sithel +133/+147/+142/+137 melee; or Bow of Astra +137/+132/+127/+122; or Bow of Astra rapid shot +137/+135/+130/+125/+120; or spell +102 melee touch or +124 ranged touch; *Always rolls a 20 on attack rolls; roll die to check for critical hit. (+20 outsider, +60 epic, +14 divine, +8 str, +30 dex, +1 weapon focus(rapier,longbow), +4 divine weapon focus(longbow))
Damage*: Rapier of the Sithel 1d6+16/12-20x2(+2d10fire); or Bow of Astra 1d8+30/19-20x3; or by spell. *Always does maximum damage.
Possessions:
Gloves of the SongMaster: Acts as Gloves of Dexterity +16
Bow of Astra: +8 Keen Mighty Composite Longbow of Distance and Flaming Burst(+10 Str allowed)
Harp of Branchala: Acts as a Lyre of Building, a Harp of charming, a Horn of Goodness, a Horn of Blasting, and a Chime of Opening.
Drums of Panic
Rapier of the Sithel: + 8 Keen Sylvan Rapier of Wounding
Elven Chain Mail +5
The point I am trying to get accross here is that most likely this product will not even have put half as much work into it as I have. That said, I probably will still buy it, but I doubt any of their stuff will be useful. There is also volumes of information on the internet on 3rd edition monsters and races for Dragonlance. As well as a timeline that includes information from every published DL novel(which is still work in progress) I have mostly used my own conversions for for monsters and pc races. I advise people that want to play in Dragonlance 3rd edition, that unless they are going to just have a quick little campaign that is low level, they might as well stick with the 2nd edition material and tailor the setting to your needs or use pre-existing 3rd edtion upgrades on the internet.
I must agree with the previous poster who was disapointed about how crappy the new dragonlances are. I believe they should have stuck with the origional hitpoint rules. However, it should be obvious that by the end of the war of the lance, Takhisis and the Black robes would have come up with some type of necromantic abjuration spell that would help protect a red dragon from a dragonlance. If paladine can do it, then so can takhisis!
My main questions are:
Does anyone have more information on who was head of the conclave and the different orders of the robes at different times? I really would have like history going back before the cataclysm. What was Fistandatilu's position on the Conclave, or was he renegade?
More information on the lost citadel?
More information on the Holy Order of the Moons(I have already read Hystoirum Penitatus im Deios Lunae)?
Rules for Divine Ascension on Krynn?
Better rules for cooperative magic between different orders of robes. Also some rules for blending priest magic with sorcerer magic(like is necessary to create the dragonorbs or the dragonlances) would be nice.
Thanks,
Any comments, suggestions, criticisms welcome!
As for cricisms and comments, let us digest. That is a long post. ;)
1) Well, Drow don't officially exist on Krynn, but if Dalamar as Drow floats your boat, go for it.
2) You've got a fair number of outerplanar-type characters, I've seen a Githzerai, Half-fiend, Aasimar, etc. Not having the DLCS, I can only go on older material. But from what I've garnered, these extraplanar creatures are extremely rare on Krynn. Out of all the modules and novels, I've only seen a handful of creatures from different planes and most of those are elementals.
3) The Kingpriest novel vol. II is notable in that it deals with the WoHS just prior to the first Cataclysm and there are numerous statements of human, elven, dwarven and even ogre wizards. Much more variety than the human-dominated Conclave circa War of the Lance.
4) Dalamar is a 48th level character and Crysania is 33rd? Seems a bit much. Krynn never struck me as the kind of place where you had numerous epic level characters. If it were otherwise, then the Dragon Overlords would hardly be a challenge. I know your campaign is set in the 4th Age, but let's consider this ... Malys is the biggest, baddest overlord and she's only got a Challenge Rating of 39. According to the experience table in the DMG and Epic Level Handbook, a party gains no XP for defeating something 8 or more challenge ratings below their own level. That means that Dalamar would get virtually no xp for taking on Malys, even by himself!
5) On quick count I see at least 5 characters of 40th level or higher. That just seems way too overpowered to me. With characters this powerful running around, why are they even bothering with a mudhole (figuratively speaking) like Krynn? With that kind of power at their command they could create their own demiplanes that are as big as the continent of Ansalon and fill it with hoards of summoned/created monstrosities. The Blue Dragonarmy is attacking Palanthas? No problem, my 48th level character just casts a few Intensified Heightened to 14th spell level Meteor Swarms. Green Dragons occupying Silvanesti? No problem, I just use my epic spell to summon some 96 HD 35 CR Primal Air Elementals. See my point here? With such powerful characters, what challenge is there left? Sure you can make the monsters more powerful, but at some point it's just going to be ridiculous. Ansalon, and Krynn being such a small world, how many epic level monsters can there be roaming around without these same monsters inadverdently (sp?) wiping out entire cities.
Ahh well, in the end it's your world to do with as you please. Just my input.
Just one nitpicky note, the conclave has seven members per order.
BTW, your rendition of Dalamar is just darn freaky
About seven members per order, I know, I still have one white to come up with, I need a name for another white, and I need one more red.
iltharanos:
Thanks for the commentary. Yes, I know Drow don't officially exist. But that was one thing I just felt I had to break. My players were always calling him a drow anyway, so I had him come out of the underdark(granted sacrificing some of the dark elf's interesting silvanesti background info).
As for the outer planer stuff: I tend to disagree with you. Yes, some of the origional rules books claimed that Krynn was isolated from the rest of the multiverse in some weird way, this did not make much sense to me. I think that that was an allowance made by Weis and Hickman to simplify the writing of their books, and should not be taken too seriously. Krynn does not exist in a bubble. All casters still have access to plane shift/astral projection just like any other plane, and so do outer planer creatures that come to Krynn. However, in general, I do not have too much outer planer stuff, it is just that it is showing up on these pages since they tend to be the higher level creatures. As for my highest level priest of takhisis, I just think that after all the idiots she has had leading her armies and screwing things up, she couldn't take it any more. She had to send in one of her own. Can't wait till the players meet him.
I think the power levels of the NPC's in the Dragonlance books is basically all about writing. Very few authors are successful writing about high level characters, most don't even bother. I think Robert Jordan's Wheel of time series is a notable exception that shows it can be done, as Rand Al'Thor has almost god like powers yet the books still excite. Weis and Hickman did do a good job depicting Raistlin as extrodinarily high level. So I think the conception that Krynn is a low powered world is an artiface of the writing style of Weis and Hickman, and is should not be taken seriously when designing a campaign world to actually play in. Decisions about the power level of the game world should be made for other, more important reasons; for instance, it is more challanging and more work to create and run higher level npc's, especially for new DM's. If you plan on just a quick foray into Kryn because the books turn you on, then feel free to stick with the traditional ideas because you are just trying to recreate the feel of the novels, or maybe even run the novels as a campaign. But if you want to run a long term several year campaign, please consider how limiting such a view will be in the long run. Don't let the books or other material straight jacket your creativity!
About Dalamar being 48th level: I love my Dalamar. He has access to Raistlin's and fistandatilus's spells, and has hoarded them to him self. His great charm abilities have given him numerous lich servants that are completely under his command. A white robe going to the tower in Palanthas is presented with a practical masuleam of of liches and vampires--that are all friendly--as per the rules of the Order. Dalamar has strengthened the entire order on Krynn. He is rebuilding another tower that the PC's had a hand in picking the spot, and now they have the magical power to actually put up another field like the other towers. And you bet he goes off plane--a lot! Ever wonder what happens to all those renegade liches floating around in old crypts? Well, when some low level wizards come accross them, they contact Dalamar, and him following the rules of his order, he commands them and turns them into his slaves. Yes, Justarias is definately loosing his hair in my campaign! That poor red robe has been through too much. I think I will eventually have him leap off the death-watch at wayerth--kidding! Palin will eventually come around and reset some of the balance. As for whether he could take on Malys, rather than adjusting dalamar, I have adjusted Malys to be more in line with prismatic dragons with a cr of like 60--even causing some sweat from the gods( which I think is more realistic anyway, these are primal dragons we are talking about!) The good thing about Dalamar, is that for all his ambition, he still holds dear magic on Krynn, and the laws laid down by the gods of magic, so he is greatly respected by mages of all robes.
I am not sure I have read kingpriest vII. Thanks for the suggestion, I will check it out.
As for having so many high level characters, I disagree with you that they would abandon Krynn. Krynn is rich with ancient secrets from the age of dreams yet to be uncovered. Dalamar still seeks some of Raistlins hidden secrets. And now that you mention it, he does have a demiplane, where time moves slower, which is partly how he got much of his power. What you see on this page is pretty much it. These are the highest level epic characters in my game (on this plane), and since there are what, 20 or so of them, I think that is reasonable for a continent of millions of people. Of coarse I am not counting ancient demi-liches or ancient Irda running around, and don't forget the scions! Dark Gods reward their clerics with great powers. As for your concerns about epic spells being cast in battle, what is the big deal? There are just as many epic protection spells, not to mention my enhanced cooperative magic system. I have several defensive spells that could help protect against meteor swarms. And there are spells that can banish the elementals, and you better believe that there are ancient 1000 year old silvanesti running around that can cast them. As i recall, during loracs dream there was some great ancient evil mist creature released that is still imprisoned in silvenost. How powerful could such and ancient evil be? In my campaign, these high level characters are not getting involved in to many of the day to day struggles. There are either shaping the overall demographics, fighting creatures that invade or try to control Krynn from other planes, gaining experience in the lower planes, or just researching magic. The rules put on mages in Krynn by the Gods of magic also must not be neglected. The gods of magic pretty much can take all the magic away from Krynn if they wanted to, in fact for a while the gods ordered them to do just that. So ultra-powerful wizards have that to contend with before they throw their epic nuclear blasts around at wanton cities. In Krynn it is all about the balance.
A last note about CR's: I think the CR system for 3rd edition sucks. I have pit characters against monsters of the same cr and they were creamed, yet they easily beat a dragon several cr's higher. So I take CR's with a grain of salt, especially CR ratings that are 25+. Hopefully they fully revamp the CR system in 4th edition so there is no guess work.
What I wonder, is if Krynn is so low powered with only 18th level characters, why hasn't it been leveled by outer planer creatures yet? Yes, I guess you can argue the gods protect the world, and if you do it that way that is fine. But how did Raistlin kill the god's? He got that power somewhere, and it is certainly very epic, ancient power, that theoretically the pc's can attain. Because of this, I defined the path to such power before the pc's were even high enough level to possibly achieve it.
I have even come up with a story that has brought psionics back to Krynn, in the form a crashed illithid spell jammer ship. I had it land among the fighting monks of claren-elien, who captured it and had it teach them. Still very rare though, pc's have to go to one particular secret monestary to learn it, and I have had majere and zivilyn take over the relavant portfolios. This is where the githzari and githyanki come in.
Setting up the campaign this way from the get go allows much room for the player characters to grow, and creates a much richer environment for game play. If they need certain items or spells, there are people around that have it. If you have the important npc's high level to begin with, then you don't have to fudge everything around and ruin the realism by upping your important npc's higher levels when the characters hit 20th level. Because lets say the characters all hit 20th level and you want to keep running this, but now they are the most powerful characters on Krynn, and you have to "fudge" Dalamar and everyone up to 30th level, then 40th, etc. Just doesn't make sense to me.
And yeah, my players LOVE this world. I am totally blowing their minds at every turn. I played Dragonlance for a few years in the traditional style (2nd ed), but it quickly got boring for me and the players. Eventually, every campaign involved numerous trips to other plains like dark sun or whatever. I think the traditional view of the novels is great for background plot, but not for a serious d&d world. When writing a book, the author has to greatly narrow the scope, and I think that is what the authors did. I have a friend who has been running the same campaign in his own world for 20 years. 20 years! He has more background and plot and story and history then all the dragonlance stuff put together. It will take him years to convert to 3rd edition. In order to create that kind of campaign for Krynn, you can't stick with the books. Once again, the books look at Krynn through a microsope, so you don't see what is beyond the particular story. That is why I advocate dm's being creative and inventive with their Krynn campaign world, so that they can keep playing it for years to come. Dragonlance is still my favorite setting! Thanks Weis and Hickman for years of fun!
I'm sorry, but this isn't Krynn. This isn't Ansalon. This isn't Dragonlance. You can say it's non-Traditional, you can say it's your own, but this bears next to no resemblance to anything I've read about Dragonlance - in gaming books, in novels, wherever.
What I think bothers me the most is that you justify all of this by saying that the novels are made the way they were because it was easier - Not because, say, that was the flavor of it. Think on this: The Heroes of the Lance, reknown across the land, applauded for their deeds, were about 5th level at the beginning of Chronicles. Excepting Raistlin's dealings, I don't believe any of them got about 10th. And that's being generous.
The thing that made Krynn unique from virtually all other worlds was that you didn't have to be a colossally powerful character to change the world. You didn't have to be Epic. It just wasn't necessary. That's why it got cut off from the other planes, the other worlds - because as far as power levels were concerned, there were two options: Join the rise to power, or sever connections and thereby maintain the flavor.
Raistlin, arguably the most powerful mage EVER on Krynn, did not wield such immense power that I would call him Epic. He was smart, he was crafty, he was powerful - but not THAT powerful. Take a moment and look at the list of spells - A 10th level mage wields some incredibly power, when you think of how those spells can affect the world. A fireball is -not- just a fireball in a world where there are no guns and no cannons. Teleportation, flying, invisibility even - How do you justify magic being something mysterious and feared when it happens all the bloody time? If you're worried about your PCs getting into epic - Teach them some Epic lessons about responsibility. Teach their characters, who have now become the driving forces of the world, that they need to be responsible, or the gods will step in. Let -them- be the people in charge, for a change. Or don't let them get that high. You're the GM, after all. But don't fault the world for being low-power when that's what its flavor dictates.
The Cataclysm changed the world. But one rogue wizard in your game could bring it about again, at the leve they're at! Sure, you can argue they all show respect for the forces of the universe, but then why was the Cataclysm so apalling, if any given wizard could go 'Hey, I could do that'? It just doesn't make sense.
And don't even get me started on Psionics, Illithid, Rakshasas, and their ilk. Don't get me started on your 'revising' of Dalamar's history. Some things just aren't Dragonlance. If you want to include them in your world, why call it Dragonlance in the first place? No offense, but your world, your Ansalon bears so little resemblance to the Ansalon written about in so many books, played by so many players on here, that I don't understand how you can even call it the same thing.
As a side note, Dark Sun is -also- 'sealed off' in a 'bubble' from the rest of the worlds. It pretty much always has been. So I don't see why your players would have to go there. ;)
I'm probably coming off very aggressive here, and I'm sorry for that. It's your world, it's your game. You're happy, your players are happy, and I have no right to tell you to change anything. So don't change anything. Do your thing. It's your Dragonlance, after all.
Just don't be surprised if a lot of your views get shot down on here. I'm sorry, I just cannot fathom that kind of power on Krynn. I was even a little edgy when they made the Dragon Overlords epic. I don't think Epic has any place on Krynn, personally. But I guess that's just my view, and I'll handle it my way, while you handle yours your way. *shrug* Best of luck to you and your players.
But that still isn't Weis and Hickman's world.
Originally posted by The Udjat
But that still isn't Weis and Hickman's world.
But since Weis & Hickman aren't writing the books or game materials for his DL, that doesn't matter all that much. :-)
It's definitely a bit divergent from 'standard' DL, but if this is how he wants to treat Krynn, more power to him.
Matthew L. Martin, Dragonlance Heretic
Ill address a couple of your points.
1. This isn't Dragonlance, it has no resemblance to ansalon, what am I thanking weis and hickman for, etc.
First off, I have completely adapted the maps, the pantheon, the structure of the wizards of high sorcery, the npc's, and all of the plot line. I follow the timelines religiously. I maintain all the npc alignments. When PC's come to me and say such and such happened in a novel, I try to add it. As for the characters I have on my conclave, as many wizards were in the novels I made them into conclave members if they weren't already (Esme, Dalamar, Justarias, Antimodes, Dunbar Mastermate, Jenna, Guerrand DiThon.) Give me more wizards that are defined by the books, and I will put them on the conclave(seriously, does someone have more?). You see, I stick to the books as much as possible, but there is a lot the books don't say. The ONLY plot related thing that I can think of that I changed IS Dalamar's history. My campaign still bears the heroic flavor and story of dragonlance, and as such I give Weis and Hickman deference. Once the campaign starts, of coarse, the PC's can change the future, and since my campaign starts around 380, that means all the fifth age stuff is up in the air.
2. Raistlin isn't epic
I really have to disagree with this one. At the end of the chronicles, a dozen or so black robe mages are teleporting in to nereka to fight Raistlin, taking one look at Raistlin, and wishing themselves out of there. Which means they were 18+ level and they were scared shitless of him. Not to mention he created his own life forms and travels through time. Not to mention he managed to freak out even Astinus. Not to mention his battle with takhisis turned the entire planet into a cinder. There is no doubt in my mind, that Raistlin, at least, was epic. Even going by the books traditionally(with most people like par salian at highest around 22nd level), in 3rd edition rules I would put him at at least 40th level by the end of the twins series, probably higher, and I think he somehow got a divine rank in the range of 0-5 (this is before replacing takhisis) or else takhisis would be immune to his magic and she could use her god abilities to slay any mortal, etc.
I am still looking to see if someone has some rules or detailed story on how he did that. I have him tricking Gilean to give him keys to the lost citadel, but I don't know if that is right.
3. Dark Sun
Yes, Dark Sun too is supposedly difficult to get to. That does not mean there aren't doors in Sigil that go there. As for why they would go there, well, it is quite an amazing place.
4.
And don't even get me started on Psionics, Illithid, Rakshasas, and their ilk. Don't get me started on your 'revising' of Dalamar's history. Some things just aren't Dragonlance. If you want to include them in your world, why call it Dragonlance in the first place?
OK, where in the novels does it say there is no Psionics, Illithid, or Rakshasas? They don't say there isn't any--it just doesn't come up. If the novels don't spell something out, you pretty much can fill in the gaps and still call it Dragonlance--this is exactly what the other authors do when they write a new novel. Maybe that is one good thing about this world, is that there is so much that isn't spelled out that it allows DM's creativity to fill in the gaps without sacrificing cannon. Also, don't forget there are a few other continents on this planet, at any time the dm can have a couple of ships land on shore...
Thanks for your feedback.
Talinthas and Martin:
shadow dragon kender, and replacing the greygem with a yam, and all sorts of other quirky stuff. I still thank weis and hickman, even though they have nothing to do with it. why? Because they are the inspiration for the whole thing.
Thanks that is totally how I feel! Thanks guys.
Like I said - Albeit I strongly disagree with your view of Ansalon/Krynn (which is my right to do), I recognize that you have every right to playing/running the game however you want to. I was never trying to take that away from you. Just wanted to make sure that's crystal clear before I say anything more that's gonna get me in trouble.
Actually, there's not a whole lot of point in my saying anything, 'cause we're not going to agree on this. Ever. But I can't stop myself, so what the hell?
Yeah. The novels don't define everything. Thank -God- they don't define everything. I like to have the freedom to flesh out the world (whichever one the setting is in). I think most everyone does. That's why I don't have any more Conclave members to give you, for example. But I still feel there's supposed to be a substantial common ground to build off of - And I dunno, yours seems whack.
But again, that's just my opinion.You could be right on Raistlin. Then again, maybe not. It's all a matter of scale, so far as I see it. Personally, I never thought he did anything Epic at the end of Chronicles - But then again, the book did say they wished out of there. So you have a point. And then there's the battle with Takhisis - And I guess I could see him being Epic there, but there's a lot of fuzzy stuff about mechanics and Raistlin, so I don't know. I'd have to think harder than I care to about it. But the time travel - That was the Dragon Orb, if I recall correctly. I don't think I'll give ol' Raistlin props for that. But until anything official is out about Raistlin, we'll never know.
I'm not gonna contest Dark Sun issues with you. ;) It's already weird. Plane-shifting is always a DM's call, I've felt, so you're entitled to it if it fits your campaign.
A weird part of me thought Rakshasas were shifters. My bad. Haven't seen 'em in Dark Sun, but you're right - it doesn't say they don't exist.
As a side note, I'll agree with you on the other continents. I've heard of material for 'em, haven't read it myself, but either way - There's a lot that's undefined about them.
I also want to make it clear that I didn't intend to insult you. Still, I imagine a great deal of my frustration came out. Sorry about that. It was a hasty reply, with some hasty wording. I'm human ;)
So, to finish: It's your world, you're free to do what you like with it. I still think some of the changes you've made are insane, but that's my call. I do want to apologize for the 'don't thank W&H' remarks. Talinthas is right. They inspired you, they made the foundation, so you do owe 'em some credit. More power to you.
Sorry I don't have any conclave members for you to add.
My only advice: They don't all have to be unique. When they were shown in Time of the Twins, I figured they were all human, or at least among the base races. That doesn't need to be followed as a rule, ofcourse, but... Eh, if we're all dessert, who's the main course?Having said that, I also seem to recall Ariakas or Ariakan (not sure which, but I think it was from DL14 - which would make it Araiakas) was listed as a L23 cleric... also of interest in the "Raistlin's final level discussion" was that the DL Adventures listed his intelligence as 17 and the time travelling spell as a level 9 spell - which implies that according to 1st edition rules he wouldn't have been able to cast it to go back in time in the first place. [someone raised the point of the Dragon Orb bringing Raistlin back in time, but I don't recall time travel being one of their listed powers either.]
What's the lesson? Mechanics sometimes don't reflect what's in the story...
You've done a lot of work to customize the world to one you want to play in, but it's quite frankly not Dragonlance. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters... you might want to consider making you world an isle in Faerun though, you'd avoid the DL-head harrassment that way...
oh, and for what its worth, psionics have been explicitly said to not work on krynn (see the rules book of taladas, under yaggol), and the DLCS explicitly states that driders, drow, halflings, lycanthropes, mind flayers, orcs, half orcs, and Monster Manual titans don't exist on krynn. Have your rakshas if you want em =)
OK, so I changed two things, psionics and Dalamar. :embarrass However, there was a great official Dragonlance module called The Wild Elves, AD&D 2nd edition that is full of driders and drow. It is available for download on wizards.com as esd. Basically a Lloth-like handmaiden of takhisis sets up residence in a Kagonesti area The Valley of Perfect Silences in Southern Ergoth. It is full of driders and drow. So they broke that rule.
Also, I definately remember reading about Illithid spell jamming ships crash landing on Krynn somewhere, I can't remember where.
My tales of the lance 2nd ed World Book of Ansalon says "...some stock fantasy creaturees do not appear--lycanthropes, orcs, half-orcs, and halflings."
Outer Planar Creatures
My Dragonlance Adventures rule book says that outer planer creatures do come to Krynn, in fact they can come easily, its just hard to leave: "The gods of Krynn have secured their world against such incursions for fear of upsetting the balance of the world. There is a 1% cumulative chance that a character visiting Krynn from other worlds cannot return across the void to his home world." The world book of ansalon has no such limitations.
Bidnickle:
You are right, DL adventures says characters cannot exceed 18th level, except for Raistlin and Clerics of Takhisis, or the gods move them to another world. It also said there could only be one 18th level cleric of good, nuetral, and evil gods at any given time. Thats only 3 clerics. But that was DL Adventures. The World book of ansalon(much more recent) has no such limitations on level, in fact the experience tables in this book all go up to 25th level.
So, Even within the "cannon" and published work there is much contradiction.
So I still hold that my world is basically cannon Dragonlance. I changed Dalamar and I have a small hard to reach sect of psionicists. The rest follows what rules there are.
the wild elves series also has kodragons, and a trip to lunitari. its generally considered noncanon. right up there with lord soth's tarrasque in DL16.
Yes, yaggol are mindflayers on taladas, but they lost all abilities. It was a shallow attempt at making spelljamming part of DL.
TotL allows up to 25th, and DLCS is unlimited up to D&D rules restraints, so if you want epic, go ahead.
In the end, its your campaign, DL by technicality.
Originally posted by talinthas
TotL allows up to 25th, and DLCS is unlimited up to D&D rules restraints, so if you want epic, go ahead.
Interesting, do they have the NPCs of the past re-levelled to account for this? or is it some change following WotS. If the cannon is going to allow characters uber 20th level, then I suppose they would need to make Fisty and Raist higher as well... Also, do they still restrict how many characters can be of a certain level? (as in the case of Holy Order of the Stars, Wizards of High Sorcery and Knights of Solomnia)
...perhaps they'll do that in the 4th age book when that comes out, it doesn't seem very important if you're going to be playing in the 5th age... unless, of course, Dalamar really is 48th level. ;)
17th level.
This is after everything that has happened.
Honestly, aside from the dragon overlords, i dont forsee any epic at all in DL.
Originally posted by talinthas
dalamar, according to the AoM, is a wiz 7/black robe 10
17th level.
This is after everything that has happened.
Honestly, aside from the dragon overlords, i dont forsee any epic at all in DL.
Oh, I don't know... you'd think after having Mishakal as a consort all those years the mortal Paladine might get a little somethin' somethin' back from her. I'm referring to epic levels, of course. :D
Originally posted by talinthas
well, valthonis doesnt have any listed stats or levels in his section of the AoM =)
Really? Aww...I just got cheap shotted.....that was one of the things I was really looking forward to.....I wanted to know all on Valthonis.
Originally posted by talinthas
dalamar, according to the AoM, is a wiz 7/black robe 10
17th level.
This is after everything that has happened.
Honestly, aside from the dragon overlords, i dont forsee any epic at all in DL.
Yeah, I could see how some may say 48 is too high, but I think 17 is too low after all that poor guys been through. I mean, anyone who sleeps with Kitiara and lives should get +1 level each morning. Not to mention being around raistlin 24/7, you could probably fry and egg on these guys heads.
No problem, my 48th level character just casts a few Intensified Heightened to 14th spell level Meteor Swarms. Green Dragons occupying Silvanesti? No problem, I just use my epic spell to summon some 96 HD 35 CR Primal Air Elementals. See my point here? With such powerful characters, what challenge is there left?
Now that I think about it, if you read the Dark Elf, that story about dalamar's early days in sivanost, that is exactly what the defending silvenesti tried to do. There were all white robes of coarse, but Dalamar had some dark tome with high level spells, that were illusion. They basically used cooperative magic and dalamar convinced the white robe elf wizards to cast illusion magic(under the current rule system white robes couldn't cast illusions), and they created the illusion of a whole army of elves fighting, plus the illusions of dragons. Definately an epic illusion, considering the ranges, durations, and area of affect involved.
But that also reminds me of the crap the elves pulled in the second dragon war where they practically blew up the whole forest of silvanesti. Granted, those mages were directly schooled in the lost citadel by the gods of magic. yeah, they killed all the evil dragons, and everyone else too. A very, very, epic spell that killed hundreds of dragons (and elves) at a time.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Really? Aww...I just got cheap shotted.....that was one of the things I was really looking forward to.....I wanted to know all on Valthonis.
oh, there is a whole page on him. Just no stats =)
Originally posted by atlantisreborn
Now that I think about it, if you read the Dark Elf, that story about dalamar's early days in sivanost, that is exactly what the defending silvenesti tried to do. There were all white robes of coarse, but Dalamar had some dark tome with high level spells, that were illusion. They basically used cooperative magic and dalamar convinced the white robe elf wizards to cast illusion magic(under the current rule system white robes couldn't cast illusions), and they created the illusion of a whole army of elves fighting, plus the illusions of dragons. Definately an epic illusion, considering the ranges, durations, and area of affect involved.
Hmm, I haven't read that book in a few years, I'll have to get back to you about that.
But that also reminds me of the crap the elves pulled in the second dragon war where they practically blew up the whole forest of silvanesti. Granted, those mages were directly schooled in the lost citadel by the gods of magic. yeah, they killed all the evil dragons, and everyone else too. A very, very, epic spell that killed hundreds of dragons (and elves) at a time.
According to the SAGA boxed set, in the 2nd Dragonwar those elf mages only faced five evil dragons. Thousands of Bakali, yes. But only five dragons. They didn't even kill the dragons, they just banished them back into the earth. You're right though in that thousands of bakali perished. But you could do that without resorting to epic spells. Imagine the bakali fighting in part of the Silvanesti forest. Most likely these bakali have no levels in any PC or even NPC classes (so they've got, what, 2 HD?).
So what to do when several thousand bakali start invading your forest homeland? Fireball them and start a forest fire. It doesn't seem inconceivable that you could create a ring of fire around the bakali (through several well-placed fireballs) that would set the forest aflame, which would then set the bakali aflame. So even though the fireballs themselves may only directly slay a few dozen bakali, the forest fire spreads and could slay hundreds more. Since this is a war and bakali don't strike me as too brilliant, repeat this tactic at another engagement. Bam, hundreds more bakali fried, and in no time at all that adds up to thousands of bakali slain.
Originally posted by talinthas
oh, there is a whole page on him. Just no stats =)
They're suppressing it... of course, the next big trilogy has to be about the resurrection of Takhisis and her efforts to ascend once again to godhood... which, of course, for need of balance restores Pally back as a deity.
I was kind hoping to see if he still did 1d10x100 damage per hit. ;)
Originally posted by iltharanos
Hmm, I haven't read that book in a few years, I'll have to get back to you about that.
According to the SAGA boxed set, in the 2nd Dragonwar those elf mages only faced five evil dragons. Thousands of Bakali, yes. But only five dragons. They didn't even kill the dragons, they just banished them back into the earth. You're right though in that thousands of bakali perished. But you could do that without resorting to epic spells. Imagine the bakali fighting in part of the Silvanesti forest. Most likely these bakali have no levels in any PC or even NPC classes (so they've got, what, 2 HD?).
So what to do when several thousand bakali start invading your forest homeland? Fireball them and start a forest fire. It doesn't seem inconceivable that you could create a ring of fire around the bakali (through several well-placed fireballs) that would set the forest aflame, which would then set the bakali aflame. So even though the fireballs themselves may only directly slay a few dozen bakali, the forest fire spreads and could slay hundreds more. Since this is a war and bakali don't strike me as too brilliant, repeat this tactic at another engagement. Bam, hundreds more bakali fried, and in no time at all that adds up to thousands of bakali slain.
Yes, I see that it probably could be done without epic spells, however the wording of this paragraph from Tales of the Lance boxed set is pretty heavy:
"When the days grew dark and short for Silvanost, three elven wild mages, trained by the Scions, banded together to drive off the dragons. STanding at the Tower of the Sun, these novice wild talents awakened the magic of land and sky--so much so that the very elements rebelled against the dragons, The wyrms were swallowed by the ground for all time. But the novice mages had tapped into far more magic than they could control. The elements lashed back on their masters, devastating the lands, all about twith floods and fires and earthquakes. Thousands perished."
OK, you were actually right, its been a while since I read this passage, and I had modified it for my campaign so I forgot what it origionally said. I think they just tapped into some primal magic energy and didn't know how to control it. It probably had the power of an epic spell though.
I am not quite warming up to your fireball idea, by the wording of the passage above it seems like they really tapped into some raw magical energy that backfired.
Actually, this kind of ties in good with the origional point of this thread. I do have a much higher level caster going around Krynn then even Dalamar. His name is the Irda They Demion (3450-2300 PC) who was one of the origional three students of the gods of magic in the lost citadel, and who was one of the three casting the spell to save Silvanost--except unbeknownst to the other two casters, he screwed up the spell on purpose, causing it to backfire and kill thousands to power his own necromantic ends. I then have him trained by the gods, and then he starts the order of the black robes, and a couple of other secret necromatic orders on the Irda Ilses, gets a whole bunch of necromantic information from dark sun, trades this information to Chemosh in exchange for help in creating a Necromantic Rod(major major artifact). He was going to trick Chemosh because the rod was actually powerful enough to control Chemosh. He was eventually imprisoned by the conclave like a thousand years ago (with the help of the Irda, the conclave wasn't strong enough by itself), however the preisthood of Chemosh is trying to use the rod to free him today (358AC). Pretty much every baddy in Krynn and nearby planes is try to get the rod. Dalamar is keeping a low profile. I have They Demion at about 60 Wizard/20(some mix of necromantic prestige classes) plus he is something much worse than a lich, Ill have to invent some horrible undead type just for him.
The Towers of High Sorcery: Any rules of the order, conclave members and functions of different positions, types of artifacts and books under their control, etc. Does anyone know if these questions will be added in the Wizards of High Sorcery expansion due out in 2004?
The lost citadel: what is it? There was a trilogy(Dragonlance Defenders of Magic) that kind of talked about it, and how then head of conclave Belize tried to enter it--supposedly it holds vast magical powers. During that time, the conclave constructed a bastion to keep anyone from entering, and they were responsible for protecting it. No details on what is in it. I am kind of envisioning something like the Temple of Winds or whatever it is called in Terry Goodkinds books. In those books, the main character goes in there and knows everything about magic, but to protect the world the gods have it so that once you leave the temple you loose all that knowledge again. I just want any work or ideas you guys have on this place that has been forbidden for mortals to enter.
The Holy Order of the Stars: Locations of temples, leaders of the different religions, rules of the priesthood, etc.
Any of you have any ideas about what the benifits are for multiclassing Wizard/Priest of a moon god? Most of my players don't end up doing this because there is not really much benafit(aside from the cool roleplaying aspect.) Maybe some way of combining casting levels, or increased DC's, something to make it more worthwhile then simply a cleric/wizard. It would make sense that such a character could do some really neat stuff. Maybe some type of prestige class solution like true necromancer is to a cleric/necromancer?
Better rules for cooperative magic for Krynn, that takes into account the creation of the dragonorb, and how true dragonlances require magic of both priest of paladine and a white robe. There has got to be some great stuff that can be done if all three color robes cast cooperative magic together.
Anything or any ideas you have are fine. Feel free to post prestige classes you have or whatever.
Maybe ive over steped .. but psonics live in everyone right? Its just harnessing the power. Correct me if im wrong
In 2004 the gods of Krynn will be detailed.
Sovereign Press is definately releasing all the right books. But, we'll have to be patient before we'll get all the setting information we desperately crave.