How is death handled in the DLCS?
Okay, a little spoiler follows
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In the Kingpriest trilogy, being brought back from the dead was an extremely rare event. In fact, only one character so far in the entire series has been raised/resurrected.
Come to think of it, I can't recall any other characters in any of the DL novels being brought back from the dead via mortal means.
Arandur
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Actually Riverwind was still alive, but just barely. Sturm noticed that his hand was moving and said so to Tanis. Tanis walked over to the body and saw that "One of the charred and blackened hands had risen from the stones, plucking horribly at the air" Tanis then begged Sturm to "End it!" Before Sturm could deliver the merciful death blow, Goldmoon asked him to stop and bring him to her. Then Raistlin says to them "Take him to her, it is not for us to choose death for this man. That is for the gods."
And as for the resurrection in The Kingpriest Trilogy.... I think he was refering to Cathan.
~Khrystyne
HS
Riverwind was alive and Goldmoon was in some kind of a coma after Dhamon attacked her.
In Uncle Trapspringer, there is one being brought to a half-life state.
Originally posted by High Sorcerer
Riverwind is assumed to have died at some point. I'm sure his 1st edition Con stat was reduced by one because he had been raised.
HS
Yep. DL5 Dragons of Mystery notes this explicitly.
Matthew L. Martin
Riverwind has died and raised by...uh, who, Goldmoon?
Goldmoon was killed by Onyx and raised by Mishakal.
Crysania was killed by Soth and raised by the Kingpriest.
Cathan was killed and raised by the Kingpriest.
So, that's four off the top of my head. I'm glad that it's a rare occurance. Even in fantasy fiction...it cheapens everything when when there's no threat of death and everyone who dies is raised.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well, let's see...
Riverwind has died and raised by...uh, who, Goldmoon?
Goldmoon was killed by Onyx and raised by Mishakal.
Crysania was killed by Soth and raised by the Kingpriest.
Cathan was killed and raised by the Kingpriest.
So, that's four off the top of my head. I'm glad that it's a rare occurance. Even in fantasy fiction...it cheapens everything when when there's no threat of death and everyone who dies is raised.
1st we can't consider Crysania to have been killed. We must call it a coma. Her spirit was taken away so that she couldnt die.
2nd Riverwind was barely alive.
I dont remember the goldmoon one but we were talking about mortals ressurecting and Mishakal is a goddess
that only leaves Cathan in my opinion :P
Originally posted by lost_boy_84
2nd Riverwind was barely alive.
Matthew L. Martin just said that DL5 says he was dead.
Originally posted by talinthas
it wasnt a wish, it was a reversed drain life spell.
That's right...I remember some discussion on this a few years ago on the DL-L.
Where did the idea come from that it was a reversed drain life spell? Did Margaret or Tracy suggest that as a solution...or did someone else have an epiphany? I can't remember...
Originally posted by talinthas
well, if you pull out your first edition players hand book...
Ugh...
Man, I'm just going to shut up today, I can't get anything right. I think it's time to go home.
Originally posted by talinthas
well, think of it like this. Up till now, 18th level characters were taken to the gods. Plus, the upper echelon levels of clergy were severely limited in the number of people who could be that level, thanks to 1st edition rules. Raise Dead and Ressurect and Reincarnate are pretty high level spells. Also remember that most of us played in the war of the lance era, where there were no clerics in the world that high a level. Highest was likely elistan, and even then he didnt have the power to do that sort of thing. then 5th age, and the gods went away, and there was really no provision for ressurection in the healing sphere, and even then it was very high level. Now the gods are back, no restrictions in place, so the potential is back to levels precataclysm, where people could have res'd anyone anytime, if they so chose. I get the feeling that the kingpriest purged the highest level clergy to keep this power mystical and for himself.
Actually, the lvl 18 limit only appeared in 1st Ed. in the original Dragonlance hardcover. The Tales of the Lance boxed set, which converted Dragonlance to 2nd Ed. took away that limit.....in fact, the advancement tables for the classes in the book went to lvl 25....
Banshee
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The main reason I was curious concerning the treatment of being brought back to life in the DLCS is because of my observations on resurrection (hereinafter referring to the spells Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection) in the Dragonlance novels, at least with respect to mortals bringing about resurrection.
As others have pointed out:
-Riverwind never died at Xak Tsaroth, he just came real close.
-Crysania never died either, as Paladine took her soul to him so that Soth could not slay her with his spell.
-As far as I can recall, in every other Dragonlance novel, whenever a character has died, he stays dead (absent divine intervention).
This leaves the Kingpriest and his warrior-friend Cathan. In the first Kingpriest novel, Cathan is slain and brought back to life by the Kingpriest. In the 2nd Kingpriest novel, there is a specific passage where it states that although the Kingpriest tried repeatedly to resurrect others after he resurrected Cathan, he failed. Barring the Kingpriest resurrecting others in the third and final Kingpriest novel, it seems pretty clear that even the Kingpriest, arguably the most powerful cleric ever to exist on Krynn, was only able to resurrect one person.
Considering the treatment of resurrection in this trilogy and in all the other Dragonlance novels I've read (and I've read all but 4 or 5), it seemed a good bet that with the advent of the 3rd edition incarnation of Dragonlance, that resurrection would be treated in a similar fashion as in the novels. As I recall, one of the authors of the new DLCS said something about doing a lot of novel research for the DLCS, having read 60+ novels in a two month time span.
Thus I thought resurrection would be treated differently than standard D&D. I have since discovered my error. No worries, though. I can always homebrew it in my campaign so that resurrection and true resurrection are unavailable and that raise dead is bumped up to 9th level and is only granted in the rarest of circumstances. At least with raise dead there is a penalty for death. With true resurrection, especially, there's little penalty to the one that actually died. Sure you might lose some equipment or some xp, but once the spell is cast you get brought back with full hp, no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of prepared spells. Yeah, talk about a damn good deal. With this kind of spell, death isn't an end, it's just an inconvenience ... like getting your spell components wet, or losing your favorite sword, or getting a cold.
However, I myself hate being ressurected when I play the game, so my characters always refuse to be summoned from the netherworld. Instead, I keep a character sheet of one level lower around to change off if my character dies. You can insist upon this as a DM as well, but be prepared for the fact that most players won't keep their sheets updated for you. Keep a few in your file to replace characters that suffer an unfortunate case of "death" in the short term. Of course, if they die late in the adventure, you may just want to send them home or tell them to make popcorn.
Personally I think ressurection should always result in some sort of price for both the caster and the recipient (not just XP that's just boring). Perhaps in the form of some injury or the like or that they come back from the dead a little more devoted to the god that brought them back.
I think you also have to ask if the God who is granting the spell would really bring that character back from the dead. Is it in the God's interests to invest such power into an individual that doesn't (perhaps) believe in them.
Just a few thoughts
Arandur
Another thing occurred to me. For whatever rationale you use, if resurrection is rarely done/capable of being done by mortals on Krynn, that'd go a long way to explaining the lack of truly high level characters. Assuming that the world of Krynn has always functioned using the D&D 3.5 rules, relatively low level characters from the past can be explained by the argument that the higher level ones simply died. They were just too slow for that one sword strike, or that last cone of cold, etc. After all that Dalamar's been through he's only 17th level. But consider how many times a PC that has made it to 17th level has died ... and suddenly Dalamar's level of experience becomes quite noteworthy.
Ahh, magic items. I've always been of the viewpoint that one can have a high magic world without having lots of magic items ... but that's a whole other issue.
I used to play a live action roleplaying and they actually had a neat system. You start with a bag of 30 white marbles. Each time you die and are ressurected, you take out a white marble and add a black one. Pull a marble at random. If it is white, your fine, if it is black, you cannot be ressurected. So someone who has died and been ressed 10 times has 20 white and 10 black marbles, so has a 1/3 chance of pulling a black marble and loosing that charcter. You can change the proportions by using more or less total marbles. I think this is a pretty good idea, but my players would never allow it, or if they did allow it they would change their minds as soon as they pull a black marble, i gaurentee it.
Also, the wizards in the party have been using wish for ressurections as well, except the black robe who perfers animate dead. j/k
Originally posted by iltharanos
Ahh, magic items. I've always been of the viewpoint that one can have a high magic world without having lots of magic items ... but that's a whole other issue.
The biggest thing that annoys me, bar none, is that warrior classes are more dependant on magical items to function than spellcasters are. For example, just last night my cohort (a wizard) completely shamed my ranger character. My ranger character can put out 50 points of damage or so with every full attack. However, Allecto can cast Prismatic spray, which can level an entire cluster of demons, even if they save.
Now, my ranger character could be doing more damage if I would upkeep his magical items to a level appropriate to his (rather than spending it on paying soldiers, building new towns, or just throwing it around living a decadant monarch's lifestyle. Allecto lives the same lifestyle, and blows her money too... but she still gets to kick ass with her spells, even though she only gets half as much as I do in terms of treasure in the first place!
There is something seriously wrong with the design philosophy at higher levels. It isn't as bad as second edition (a fighter can actually hope to take on a mage in one-on-one combat) but he is not the wizard's equal in general ass-kicking.
Then again you might have had differing experiences from mine but to sum it up I guess the mage is like a fire cracker; quick, showy and gone all too quickly whereas the fighter types are more like a candle; not as showy but tend do their thing in a smaller way that lasts much longer.
Arandur
Originally posted by ferratus
There is something seriously wrong with the design philosophy at higher levels. It isn't as bad as second edition (a fighter can actually hope to take on a mage in one-on-one combat) but he is not the wizard's equal in general ass-kicking.
I think Ferratus nailed it on the head. At high levels, a fighter/ranger/barbarian vs. a wizard loses. Why? Shapechange . Wizard casts it and can transform into any non-unique creature of twice his level (max. 50 HD). So continuing the example above, Wizard (lvl 17) casts shapechange and transforms into an Ancient Red Dragon, and now Wizard has 39 Strength and 29 Con, a 20d10 fire breath weapon (Ref DC 36), Frightful Presence, DR 15/magic, speed 40 ft., fly 200 ft, etc. etc. (Polymorph grants the caster all of the assumed form's extraordinary and supernatural attacks and qualities).
Even if this weren't overwhelming enough, at the minimum level Wizard can cast Shapechange it will last 170 minutes! and Wizard can change form once per round as a free action.
How can the warrior types even compare to such carnage? Yes, I know warrior-types are more successful, depending on the circumstances. In general, though, they can't hope to compete with wizards of the same level in sheer death/carnage/mayhem-dealing.
Arandur
Why? Shapechange . Wizard casts it and can transform into any non-unique creature of twice his level (max. 50 HD).
Well, in the old system, at least the fighter had a chance of interupting the caster. In 3rd edition, I hardly ever have a character that misses his concentration checks(casting on the defensive is ridiculusly easy), and readying an action to interupt a caster is not something without its disadvantages. So yes, fighters are more heavily dependant on magic items.
Originally posted by Arandur
A wizard is more powerful at higher levels than a fighter true, but at the lower levels (I believe)it is on more often the reverse. So I guess it does balance. That's the trade off isn't it?
Arandur
True. So the lesson here is to kill the wizards while they're young and inexperienced. ;)
Originally posted by atlantisreborn
Well, in the old system, at least the fighter had a chance of interupting the caster. In 3rd edition, I hardly ever have a character that misses his concentration checks(casting on the defensive is ridiculusly easy), and readying an action to interupt a caster is not something without its disadvantages. So yes, fighters are more heavily dependant on magic items.
And once you get to epic levels, and you have feats like "Epic Skill Focus - +10 to any one skill", Concentration checks become even easier to make.
True. So the lesson here is to kill the wizards while they're young and inexperienced.
'cause you sure as hell won't even get the chance later
Arandur