I would like to share something that bothered me about the dark sun setting. I would also like to share some solutions I thought about. I would be very happy to hear your point of view, as it is very important for me to keep the dark sun flavor.
The questions always popping up when I try to paint the really big picture are usually the same:
1) Why athas? why in this poor, primitive harsh world some major forces try to put their claim?
the githyanki in a module, dregoth, the kreen (someone stated in another message - what do the kreen need with this wasteland?
I think there must be a reason.
2) are there any other worlds? other prime materials? where is toril? krynn? ETC?
3) who are the pyreen? why try to bring peace to this hell hole?
4) why dregoth wants athas? he can go anywhere by his gate?
5) why is the world closed?
I thought about these points a lot, until I finally (hope) I can try tell a deeper tale.
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what I always liked about dark sun, is that there is depth. underneath all the harsh world desert stuff, there is an interesting history, mysterious powers ETC.
so I tried to figure out the history in light of this story:
please, tell me what you think, is it appropriate at all? lose the flavour?
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Athas is the end. There is nothing else. Toril is long gone, Krynn burned to ashes. no other planets exist. no other place. only the shattered remains of the once proud demi planes, elemental some of the ethereal lay somewhere beyond.
Once a terrible war raged across the multiuniverse. Before the halflings. Before the warbringer and his extermination war.
It was the last war. prophesized long before. Armageddon.
"...and the angels will fight amongst men. The beasts of chaos will run loose..."
worlds were destroyed, the angel forces were crushed, but they took with them the most of the chaos legions. The gods themselves lay dead. Nothing remained. The broken remains of the angels were hunted down by the evil lords, but a group managed to escape. they went to the last inhabitable place. Athas.
They made sure that the evil lords will not live to enjoy their victory, and the last remaining gods of good, destroyed the multiverse. before that closing the sphere of athas thus protecting it from the power they unleashed.
Athas was ruled by the rhulisti in that old age. oblivious to the war, they continued their lives unaware.
The angels changed themselves. They understood that they must never again meddle in the lices of the mortals. They changed themselves, and went their separate ways.
The ages passed.
One of the angels, once known as "Kalan the purifier" was different than the rest of his kin. He was deformed by the long war. His mind and soul twisted by the endevours he suffered. He saw the errors of the halfling race, and when the new races emerged he devised a horrible plan. His new name was Rajaat.
When the angels heard about the war Rajaat started, they emerged from their hiding places, trying to counter him. They tried to bring peace to the lands, they were the Pyreen. But Rajaat was too powerful. In his blood run also the ancient evil blood long forgotten.
The known history takes place.
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But the angels did not know that Athas was not a mere planet.
under the forests, lakes and seas, deep below. Something slept.
it was long forgotten by the gods. it was imprisoned there eons ago. In ages when no gods were concieved.
Its dreams are what called the angels to Athas. its dreams are what gave Rajaat his twisted visions.
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suppose that now, as his jailor are long dead, it tries to break free? maybe he holds the power to create worlds? maybe he is the original creator? (trying not to be Kryneesh)/
anothe options, I think is better, there is a powerful artifact. with it the originals creators made the worlds. they buried it in Athas, long before history began. it is aware, and sends its thoughts. The most powerful feel it, they crave for it, as it will grant them the power to create... to break the prison world.
The dragon feels it (in my campaign he is not dead yet), the Haazi (a kreen supreme being - extremly powerful) feels it. dregoth feels it. Rajaat found a way to take it, so it is imperative he remains imprisoned.
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ok there are some holes:
dregoth has a gate and travelled through it. maybe this gate doesnt show him other planes, but shows him the ancient times?
maybe some forces survived the ancient war and they are trying to open the closed sphere and finish it once and for all?
***I plan to arrange a meating soon between alar ch'earnol (pyreen big boss) and the party. maybe when they first see him they will see his angelic vision, before \they will see him as a pyreen?
***even when all those forces wants to take Athas, still the Athasians will want to have a say (and I include the sorcerer kings with them) they dont want their world cleaned... the druids, pyreen, preservers and avangions (Solonor and Oronis) will have to unite sometime...
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sorry it was so long, but I have to arrange the logics of the world... and it also must keep the dark sun flavour.
please comment...
Originally posted by eyalrein
1) Why athas? why in this poor, primitive harsh world some major forces try to put their claim?
the githyanki in a module, dregoth, the kreen (someone stated in another message - what do the kreen need with this wasteland?
githyanki: just chance, they stumbled over the gate and found their long lost brethern. Since they were easily manipulated and enslaved, the G. recognized the huge potential for a new powerbase.
dregoth: later
Kreen: Athas is not a wasteland for the Kreen. Alot of meat running around, good hunting.
Originally posted by eyalrein
2) are there any other worlds? other prime materials? where is toril? krynn? ETC?
Most Athasians simply do not know of their existance. Probably because the worlds are hard to reach.
Originally posted by eyalrein
3) who are the pyreen? why try to bring peace to this hell hole?
Good question, have no official answer. Their motivation is just their idealism.
Originally posted by eyalrein
4) why dregoth wants athas? he can go anywhere by his gate?
That is simple, he just wants revenge against the Sorcerer Kings.
Originally posted by eyalrein
5) why is the world closed?
Why are there different planes of existance? It is just the way it is.
Out of Game reason: The developers did not want to see a flood of characters with 20+ stats in other worlds or to explain why Athasians did not take over the multiverse (like the Fremen of Dune) since they are tougher than anyone else.
I know everyone has his reasons, but something is missing.
what do you think?
(even if it is not officially so..)
Reasons why you cant reach other worlds... Dark Sun is not the end, its just one world amongst many... There is still Toril, Krynn, and all the other settings out there... But you see, Darksun is encompassed by a thing they call the gray, making planar travel nearly impossible (I put nearly so its still possible just really freaking hard)..... While Athasian clerics can get power from the elemental powers, templars get their power from their Sorcerer-Kings... Look I am not a major fan of Darksun, but I still really like the setting, it provides D&D with a certain flair. What I am trying to say is, that if you have many unanswered questions, before you come up with "solutions" read the stuff that has been published about the Dark Sun world. Quite honestly it offers a much more compelling story than you have, again it provides a world were PCs have to really strive for survival, even at higher heights of power... Its a good setting, no reason to change all the multiverse because you didnt read the settings history :P Either way its always your choice, but dont go around to others and offer an alternative to something that you have not even looked at, its uneducated
ok ok I am donebut:
something is missing (for me I mean).
BTW
first sorcerer is Rajaat.
please dont assume I didnt read the material as I know most of it by heart.
no hard feelings though
but the point is, that is your belief. I for one like the history of the setting like it is. There is no need to make it any different. BUT that is my opinion, you are free to do as you wish.On a side note, people fight over whatever they have available in front of them. While we may think that Athasians do not have much, that is all they know and I believe would fight very viciously over it. In fact the less there is, the more people want
No hard feelings, we just have different opinions. Still you are the first one that I have met that has found the settings history inadequate, I find it fascinating. If you wish to run your campaign in Dark Sun as part of a prophecy of apocalypse and doom fine... How can I say this... I find that you are trying to put meaning to something that has its own meaning. I just find it entirely unnecessary and that is why I may have come off as a bit aggressive initially. Then again I might be the only that feels like this, if I am *shrugs* oh well heh. I just feel that if you try to give that kind of history to Dark Sun it will ruin it for ya, but what do I know?
If you still feel the setting is missing something for you, change it but dont suggest this change to everyone :P If we all did this, most boards like the FR, PS, and DS boards would be flooded with stuff. Personally I run Dark Sun before the Dragon's death and Rajaats brief return because I like it best like that. You dont see me telling everyone that they should play like me :P I dont know how to end this properly, as I cant seem to translate my thoughts into words (Or at least sensible sentences). I will finish by saying change Dark Sun as you please to whatever your whim desires, but leave the core of it as it is, do not suggest people to go in one direction or another... That is something often best found by them. If on the other hand a person asks for advice on where to bring the Dark Sun world feel free to say whatever you truly feel... There... if that made any sense. Oh and if you misunderstood me, I never meant to seem hostile in any way, I just talk aggressively. If in any way I offended you I apologize.
Originally posted by eyalrein
but:
something is missing (for me I mean).
Ok..... here's my question: what is missing?
Of the AD&D 2nd Ed. game worlds, short of Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance (former because of the sheer volume of gaming products released for it and the selection of novels as well, the latter because of the sheer volume of novels released for it and the selection of gaming products as well) IMHO Dark Sun has the most robust history and detail of them. It's cool (IMHO) because it is different. It is not your standard fantasy world, more like a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting.
Why would people want Athas - well, there isn't much on it, and those which live there fight to take what they can get.
Athas is the end. There is nothing else. Toril is long gone, Krynn burned to ashes. no other planets exist. no other place. only the shattered remains of the once proud demi planes, elemental some of the ethereal lay somewhere beyond.
Once a terrible war raged across the multiuniverse. Before the halflings. Before the warbringer and his extermination war.
It was the last war. prophesized long before. Armageddon.
Interesting, but is hardly what I would ever dream of using for Athas, as I like to leave the option open to my players that if they can figure out how to get out of Athas, they can, and there is still other material planes. The Gray blocks interdimentional (planeshift/gate/etc) travel to the outer planes, but the elemental planes don't. Besides - look at the 3rd Edition book Manual of the Planes - pretty much, the way things are set up now, each material plane has it's own multiverse (independant of the others). I don't follow that concept, rather taking the premise that there are several material planes that can be reached.
Who are the pyreen? They are one of the races that appeared at the beginning of the 2nd Age. The most notorious member of their race is a little man called Rajaat. Why bring peace to the world, I'd say genetic predisposition. Why are they genetically set up that way? I've always taken it along the idea that there is a form of balance in nature, and there is enough things in Athas that are against peace, that maybe it was enough to produce an entire race that is focused on peace.
Why does Dregoth want Athas - little thing called revenge and megalomaniac determination. Why did Malystrix want Krynn? Same basic concept. Power corrupts and all. Don't forget that Dregoth is a little off his rocker - and that he has some pent-up need for revenge against all the other sorcerer-kings who have pretty much screwed him so that he cannot become a full dragon (by killing him). Why doesn't he use the portal and go to hell? Well, if the reasons still aren't self-evident, let's say that since he's a Chaotic Evil type of creature, he won't find the Nine Hells of Baator a very pleasant place to visit.
Why is the world closed? Well, game system wise, it was to stop the overpowered Athasians from infesting other worlds. It has a lot to do with the existence of the Gray, and I believe the Black. Why is Ravenloft separate? Why ask why, just go with it - Athas is sealed off from other worlds (normally), but then again, you could make it open & available if you so desire.
To me, it seems you are far more interested in rewriting Athas than using the world as designed. That's cool and all, but what you're presenting just doesn't seem to "feel" Athasian or give me the Dark Sun type of impression. However, if that's what you desire, go for it.
The multiplanar apocalypse idea is actually interesting. If everything on the planes were wiped out long before Athas as we know it was a twinkle in Troy's eye, then perhaps one could travel to the planes wrought with sorrow and misery and no life at all. A ruin or two here and there may prove to have some insights into what came before, and maybe a tiny pocket of life or two scattered about (perhaps the last remaining demons and devils are working together for once with Dregoth in the hopes of leaving for greener pastures, and saying that they would prefer Athas to their Lower Planar homes says alot about their current conditions).
Sorry, I rambled more than a redneck at a tractor pull. Hope you get the idea though.
I wanted to reply to some of what you wrote, but first I would like to shed light on my original message:
I really really love the dark sun setting! dont get me wrong, I just wrote some thought I had, but as I strongly try to keep dark sun flavor it was important for me to hear what you think...
what is missing for me is the linkage (maybe there dont have to be one - I agree).
there seem to me that the future of the setting will eventually be stuck:
the kreen invasion and or dregoth will prevail/lose, and then what?
the problem is with the prism pentand, as it really solve the problem of the world for me.
BUT
amoun: I am very thankful for your reply. I don't find it aggressive or offending in any way.
but I must disagree with your remark that this things shouldnt be places in the forum: I would very like to hear about people's ideas and campaigns, and not just rules and such.
what I wrote are just thought passing in my head.
anyway, I wanted to know if you think it suits the flavor that is so important for the common athasian player, and its not.
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BTW, I detached myself from the official story line after the crimson legion was defeated in urik.
so now I try to involve the kreen invasion and dregoth schemes while most SKs are alive.
what I finally decided is that dregoth is manipulating the entire region, and while trying to arrange the resurrection of kalid-ma, he opened the rift to the empire, so when it will invade, dregoth will be there to save the day.
and then of course turn everyone into dray.
his main scheme is to let kalid-ma (who was 27 dragon and so powerful to deal with the other SKs) run loose, maybe even kill a SK or two, dregoth will handle borys, and catch Raam. (abalachre was killed be the former group).
Mon adderath is now in Tyr, and got Rikus killed in the last battle with urik. he will soon frame the PCs with agis murder. dregoth will take Tyr next and then urik, creating a powerful sequence of northern cities...
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any suggestions?
I agree with the concerns about the Prism Pentad - the world changes so utterly, from all the cities having a ruling SK, to less than half. Suddenly it just seems like a matter of time before there aren't any SK's.... maybe that's the reason that all the apocolyptic invasions (Thri-Kreen, Dregoth, and the Space Halflings) were all lined up...
Eyalrein called, when he got the word,
He said "I suppose you've heard
About Athas."
Well, I rushed to the boards, and I looked inside,
And I could hardly believe my eyes,
As this big spaceship rolled up into Athas' drive.
I don't know why she's barren, or where she's gonna go,
I guess she's got her story but I just don't wanna know,
'Cause for 24 years I've been living alone on Athas.
Audience: Athas, What the f*** is Athas?
24 years, just waitin' for a chance,
To tell you how I'm feeling, maybe get a second glance,
Now I've gotta get used to not living alone on Athas.
Audience: Athas, What the f*** is Athas?
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EDIT: I just couldn't resist, guys. Creativity sparks things in me at 2 AM.
("Who the f*** is Alice" is a Smokie hit)
Jon, you rock.
the problem is with the prism pentand, as it really solve the problem of the world for me
I hate nothing more than a novel series for a setting that does just that. The death of Borys and the SKs is something that should have been left for the PCs through adventure supplements, not through a designer's pet characters in a few books.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I hate nothing more than a novel series for a setting that does just that. The death of Borys and the SKs is something that should have been left for the PCs through adventure supplements, not through a designer's pet characters in a few books.
If I ever run DS again, that's exactly what I'm gonna do... let the PC's do the whole PP bit. Or not, if they roll bady
I didnt understand something: you "like" or "no like".
BTW the answer to your question is:
"Athas is the greatest place for the mean sadistic type of DM, as he/she can do horrible nasty stuff to parties of innocent PCs and get away with it by the mumble of explanation: its not ME that is evil. its the SETTING".
sorry, I read two of terry pratchett's books in a row..
I always ran my own thing. I never ran a module. I was prefectly happy to run the Dark Sun world out of the first box when Athas was still a mystery and the world had many, many secrets to its past still. There was no Blue Age, Green Age or Champions. There was just the harsh desert in a brutal world. Who cares about the past when most have to fight for their present. Who cares about the future if you may not live through the day.
I know Dregoth's plan. He is trying to 'wake up' the people of Athas and show them the truth. The truth is that they are all slaves that are being used to power a race of machines. Right before Dregoth conquers the Tyr region and wakes everyone up, the Thri-Kreen will come from the Crimson Savannah and kill everyone on Athas. Then the world will reset itself in the Blue Age again.
I'm quickly remembering a Ren & Stimpy episode called Space Madness with a very similar 'History Erase' button at the end of the show . . . .
"under no circumstances what so ever, this button be pressed! no joking! dont press it!"
I can just see my PCs having an argues amongst themselves:
"I dont mind pressing it' but maybe we should press it qith your staff a few feet away?"
"yes! we have to press it! there is no other way!"
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Indeed, Ral, and that's the real reason why the Blue Shrine was not detailed in the Wanderer's Chronicle - it contains the reset button for Athas. :p
Pyreen: once I heard an opinion about that pyreens embodied spirits of the land, who are playing active role instead of the druid spell granting cousines who are a bit more passive. And I also see a house-made DS setting, where pyreens simply don't exist, as the DM put more emphasis in the 'world is dying and evil' point. He doesn't want good forces to exist on Athas (except the VA), so threw out the peacebringers. Everybody can choose as he/she wishes...
Prism Pentad: Denning was thrown out from the DS project, so he took a little revenge, and killed all the jokes on Athas at the ending of the books by unveiling everything. In our group by consensus we ignore PP, and play with the old setup as presented in the first DS box. And as I see, a lot of people follow this habit as well...
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Indeed, Ral, and that's the real reason why the Blue Shrine was not detailed in the Wanderer's Chronicle - it contains the reset button for Athas. :p
Actually, there'sa big, big obsidian table, with 3 buttons labeled CTRL, ALT and DEL...
Originally posted by Danzauker
Actually, there'sa big, big obsidian table, with 3 buttons labeled CTRL, ALT and DEL...
I tought the Athas software running under Linux... There was no freeze yet... :D
Running a Dark Sun/Matrix game may work with my friends. They are into the Matrix so I say I may run Dark Sun to a different gaming system (we have ran Dark Sun to Earth Dawn and the White Wolf System before). I use Cyberpunk 2020 and tell them I want it to be more realistic. The author's favorite characters (the characters that kill Kalak etc.) lead the PCs to the truth and wake them up (after all, how else could a small group of people kill mighty beings. They hacked into the system). Mean while, the characters wake to a world of neo-primatives and discover all sorts of new technology like guns, computers and medicine. The world, Athas, was actually a colony world that either had a war with the machines, is in the process of terra-forming has a hostile enironment or suffered some sort of natural disaster. The skys may or may not be darkened. They learn that "Magic" is actually hacking into the system. They come back and use their computer skills implace of a magic skill and are more powerful when they reenter the Tyr Region. Dregoth is actually a program AI that built himself a machine-dragon body and he seeks to rule the real world. His Drays are AI machines like him (only much smaller and weaker). He either seeks to raid humans from the AI power station or convince them to wake up and follow him (he seeks humans to worship him or his own matrix (in Cyberpunk, it is called the Brain-Dance). They will probably all be human in the real world, but be other races in the matrix.
Maybe because I'm darn tired of seeing this damned Matrix popping out from every corner!!!
Like the Warbringer, even with his corrupted magic, could take on the true Champions of Athas. He lives with his abject failure but he does not truly understand who imprisons him... only that he is a prisoner.