In the end, it seems simply to be a petty power struggle between two groups of wizards, with three gods simply lusting for control.
Now, sorcerers were designed in the 5th Age to be wizard replacements. They look, and feel, very similar to 2e wizards... only they cast magic on the fly (something that hasn't survived in D&D 3e outside of the Academy Sorcerer prestige class).
The Wizards of High Sorcery, in contrast, were deliberately designed to be different from the standard wizards, bringing in a rigid heirarchy, moon magic, the intervention of the gods, etc.
My advice would be to continue to follow the pattern. Turn the sorcerers into the "scientists" of magic, the ones who understand how magic works.
Turn the Wizards of High Sorcery into a mystery cult, who do not understand magic, but veiw each increase in power as "revealed knowledge". That gives the gods of magic something to do as well, besides saying "tsk, tsk, tsk." If they are all about the spread (rather than the suppression) of magic, they really need something positive to do.
But that's just what I would do? What do all of you think about sorcerers vs. mages, and how do you differentiate the two classes in feel for your own games? How will upcoming Sovereign Press supplements (without revealing any plotlines for the "First Conclave") differentiate between the two groups of spellcasters?
Okay, as for how I would handle the feel of the WoHS vs. sorcerers...
The WoHS to me are scholars. They gain their magic from the moons, etc. etc. Sorcerers may study, but theirs is the path of self-discovery. Think of the WoHS as being old-school traditionalists, and sorcerers as learning in a "new age" sort of way, seeking self-discovery. The teachings of the Academy of Sorcery actually remind me a lot of the teachings of the Jedi Academy on Yavin 4 in Star Wars.
I guess you can sum it up by saying that WoHS are "learning" scholars, and sorcerers are "feeling" scholars.
As for further differentiation and flavor...
I think the WoHS are developed quite nicely, and I wouldn't really touch upon that. I could see developing specific roles (i.e. renegade hunters), but the WoHS are just fine.
Where I would like to see further development is with sorcerers. Personally, I like the description of sorcerers in the SAGA gaming materials. Wild Sorcery is the very arcane magic used in the creation of Krynn. Due to its creative nature, it has an elemental aspect to it, which I really dig. This can be seen with the Academy Sorcerer prestige class.
In some ways, I wonder if Wild Sorcery is more of the "everyman's magic". It's chaotic nature allows it to be shaped however the magic-user in question wants. You can be more of a generalist, or search out the elemental and creative nature of magic that the Academy of Sorcery teaches. Or perhaps you've specialized in another way, perhaps even becoming a Chaos Mage.
Anyway, those are just some thoughts.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
In some ways, I wonder if Wild Sorcery is more of the "everyman's magic".
I came up with something along these lines a while back on the mailing list. Here it is:
I don't think that ambient magic is not supposed to be useable by mortals, as some hypothesized. My opinion--and this is _only_ my opinion, with little to no grounding in canon--is that ambient magic is 'low magic', meant to be used by 'everyday' magicians, doing 'simple' tasks of dealing with the substance and the life of the world. It's flexible and potent, but it doesn't ascend to the rarified heights of focused magic. High Sorcery and clerical magic are meant for those with a special calling, who swear their fealty to Good, surrender their souls to the lures of Evil, or try to hold the world between the two. It is the result of historical accident--or rather, a portion of the High God's plan unclear to mortals
--that focused magic has been 'common' in the Third and Fourth Ages.Matthew L. Martin
When I think of the wizards I think of "living magic" that is deeply rooted into a philosophy, tradition, and a pattern of initiation. The magic of sorcerers is tapped, then analyzed and then shaped by the caster into the appropriate effect. It is, as you say, all about discovery by the mortal.
The magic of wizards squirms around inside of them like a living thing. It answers to the wizards own unspoken needs (alignment). It is something breathed into them with each crackling old spellbooks and whispers of the gods. It is not something that is discovered, but rather a mystery that is revealed.
What do you think of that?
Well, I was turning over the two types of magic over in my head, in context of what I have just said. So I came up with a new definition of magic:
Sorcery: Raw, elemental, chaotic. The utility magic, discovered and shaped for a purpose.
Wizardry: Lore, tradition, inititation, revealed knowledge.... alive. Twisting around in you like a living thing I said... and you know that fits.
What if the way that the gods of magic focus magic is to turn it into a living thing? Breathe life into it, like certain other dieties have breathed life into clay?
I don't mean giving it full sentience, where it talks, walks, and poops. Rather, a presence... a presence that waxes and wanes with the moons. I mean, the magic is lover and child right? The magic is ecstacy, the magic is... ineffible.
So a sorcerer is a person discovering the ambient magic of Krynn, the everyman's magic. The magic from the eminations of a mad god, chaos incarnate. Dangerous as handling explosive, but giving of rewards if handled correctly.
Imagine what a wizard would say to this. This dangerous power, untamed, elemental chaotic. Used to create and destroy as the sorcerer needs it. Think of how he feels about his own magic, how he lives it, how he feels it... how he loves it, and how it loves him back. How the wizard is devestated when he loses magic.
How could a sorcerer and a wizard ever see eye to eye then? A sorcerer just assumes that power is power, and that the wizards are simply trying to persecute them. But what would a wizard think? He would think that a sorcerer is tampering with the fundamental power of existance, without proper respect, love and relationship that magic is entitled.
That makes sorcerers much more dangerous than black robes, for while black robes may cause destruction and suffering... sorcerers attack magic itself. They attack the very living essence of magic, by simply tapping into these chaotic and elemental energies. By bypassing the moons, they harvest the power of magic, but without the living breathing presence of magic. This is something that wizards simply cannot accept.
Now what do you think of that?
I also think that that is the best explanation of their differences I've seen so far.
I think therefore I am, I think.
But...what about those who have practised both types of magic, like Dalamar? They understand the differences perfectly and wouldn't necessarily be prejudiced towards either type.
Wizards most definitely have an addiction of sorts to magic, a sort of codependency that is fueled by their use of it. They study to know it better. They guard it carefully, almost religiously. They sacrifice everything to know it better, to have it be with them constantly. Their magic is alive because it has been directed by the power of the gods.
It is no surprise at all that Palin, even when he masters sorcery, still feels a keen loss, an emptiness, something which is sharpened by his further disconnect from wild magic when the souls leech it from him. All wizards in the novels talk about it when they lose it as if they've felt the sharp blow of grief that comes with the death of a loved one.
Sorcerers of the Fifth Age who were not wizards previously never have this same feeling. They feel the rush of power as they shape and control the ambient magic of the world, raw and unbridled, yes - but they don't get the same emotional connection to it, since it's not alive in the same sense.
You can see from this analogy, too, that Palin's decision at the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon shows that he has a greater will than any other wizard in the novels. He's capable of turning down the offer to take back this feeling, turning instead to the love of his family and his friends. He intends to replace the love of magic with what matters to other people on Krynn, and that wrenching choice shows incredible strength of character.
Cheers,
Cam
Kudos!
Originally posted by Cam Banks
For once, Terry, I think you've probably hit the nail on the head when it comes to sorcerers and wizards.
Wizards most definitely have an addiction of sorts to magic, a sort of codependency that is fueled by their use of it. They study to know it better. They guard it carefully, almost religiously. They sacrifice everything to know it better, to have it be with them constantly. Their magic is alive because it has been directed by the power of the gods.
It is no surprise at all that Palin, even when he masters sorcery, still feels a keen loss, an emptiness, something which is sharpened by his further disconnect from wild magic when the souls leech it from him. All wizards in the novels talk about it when they lose it as if they've felt the sharp blow of grief that comes with the death of a loved one.
Sorcerers of the Fifth Age who were not wizards previously never have this same feeling. They feel the rush of power as they shape and control the ambient magic of the world, raw and unbridled, yes - but they don't get the same emotional connection to it, since it's not alive in the same sense.
You can see from this analogy, too, that Palin's decision at the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon shows that he has a greater will than any other wizard in the novels. He's capable of turning down the offer to take back this feeling, turning instead to the love of his family and his friends. He intends to replace the love of magic with what matters to other people on Krynn, and that wrenching choice shows incredible strength of character.
Cheers,
Cam
Woot! Someone who agrees with me on that! Yay! I really thought that Palin giving up the magic was comparable to Bilbo giving up the One Ring int the early parts of The Fellowship of the Ring.
Originally posted by ferratus
Now what do you think of that?
Very impressive, Terry.
Now...I'm not sure I agree that that is exaclty what is happening. But I definately agree that this is probably how the Wizards and Sorcerers view each other.
Of course, we are now only half done. We are now operating under the premise that focused magic seems to have a soul (for lack of a better word) that wizards can feel and grow attached to, a presence that waxes and wanes with the moons.
So what is this presence? How was it created? What purpose does it serve?
So I'm going to put forth what I've been thinking about it overnight.
The presence does not seem to have a sentience of its own, such as the "Tower of Wayreth" enjoys (y'know the guy that looks like Dilbert's boss). Nor does it seem to be the literal presence of the gods themselves.
My idea of what the "soul of magic"is can be explained by saying that it is a manifestation of power that is a reflection of the wizard's mind. So when a mage is cruel, so magic delights in cruelty. When a mage is kind, the magic is a blessing.
It was created by the moon gods, making magic truly their child, out of the chaotic energies of chaos. The way I see it, Chaos is an entropic principle. The opposite of the stability and harmony of the created universe. After all, magic literally does what should be impossible.
So by giving it a form and function, and interlinking magic with the hearts and minds of gifted mortals, you bring disorder into order, disharmony into harmony. It becomes a part of the created universe, and becomes something to be loved and cherished. It is still dangerous, still destructive, but so are storms and poisonous berries, and disease and what not.
What Takhisis did was deprive magic of its soul, and thus open up a pandora's box of destruction on a fundamental level. Not destruction in terms of destroying things of the physical world (since obviously focused magic can do the same) but destroying the harmony and stability of the universe. Takhisis didn't care, she just wanted power, and with the moon gods out of the way she had all the power of Chaos she needed.
Now Sorcerers obviously point out that they bring stability and order to the chaotic forces of magic themselves, through their incantations and study of the chaotic principles of magic. In fact, the feelings of the wizards about the "presence" or "beloved mystery" is considered sentimental foolishness by the skeptical sorcerers who do not beleive this presence exists. For those that do beleive it exists, this "presence" is considered an abberation of the "purity" of magic.
The wizards feel that sorcerers are arrogantly and heedlessly playing with forces that unravel everything.
Thoughts?
In the end, what's really happened here is that the Gods of Magic have directed the ambient magic back to Krynn, imbuing it with something of the divine spark inherent in life, purifying it of the Chaos it was tainted with. This magic needs the wizard to complete it, so the relationship between the wizard and her god of magic is very much unlike that of the cleric and his god. Magic is a gift, handed to the wizard so to speak, who gives it meaning in accordance with the wizard's alignment. The magic shifts and changes with the moon's phases once the wizard has fully committed herself to the god of magic, something which on Ansalon is sealed by the Test of High Sorcery.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
I was going to say that Wizards are magical scientists and that Sorcerers are magical philosophers, but after reading beyond the first post, it doesn't really seem to apply anymore.
I think that's another viable way of looking at wizards and sorcerers. It makes sense, considering how they each respectfully studied.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I think that's another viable way of looking at wizards and sorcerers. It makes sense, considering how they each respectfully studied.
Yes, but when you consider that Wizards have a certain attachment to their spellcasting the Sorcerers don't, it kind of makes thngs weird. I would expect the philosopher to be the one to feel this "presence", but it is in fct the scientist that is in contact with it.
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
I was going to say that Wizards are magical scientists and that Sorcerers are magical philosophers, but after reading beyond the first post, it doesn't really seem to apply anymore.
Personally...I think this is more the truth of the matter, Mucknuggle.
But I could easily see Terry's post being the "in world" view that Wizards have of Sorcerers...whether it's the truth or not.
Wizards on the other hand depend on a "wise old master" to teach them the old and forgotten lore. It is the wizards that have a really strong subculture, with a very strong spiritual underpinning. That's much more in common with philosophy, particularly ancient philosophy.
Thanks for the clarification Cam, that's what I was shooting for, I just had difficulty coming up with the proper terminology. "Imbueing magic with the divine spark inherent in life". I gotta remember that.
The WoHS have more of a structured learning system. They do have a certain amount of self-discovery to them, but they are taught how to go about that path of self-discovery.
The Academy of Sorcery, IMO, doesn't have such a strict method of teaching. The focus isn't on research, it is moreso on feeling and intuition.
I compare the Academy of Sorcery's learning style with the Jedi Academy from the Star Wars Jedi Academy Trilogy. In that series, there was a certain amount of structured teaching, but teaching was centered around self-discovery. Each evening, the students would gather and share their experiences, giving new insights into the Force.
So basically, Wild Sorcery is the "everyman magic". It's intuitive, feeling.
High Sorcery, on the other hand, is imbued with the essence of the gods of magic. You have to work hard to understand its workings, but when you do, it is intoxicating. It's like learning how to play an instrument. As you practice and learn more, you are able to play a beautiful symphony.
Now, notice that Takhisis uses this chaotic and elemental energy, and steals the world at the moment of Ionathas' (Chaos') defeat. It is then that we immediately see the entropic properties of sorcery at work.
Takhisis uses sorcery, and what happens? The dragon overlords arrive and bring destruction on a monumental level, of type not seen since the Cataclysm, or the 2nd dragon war. That was the power of Chaos unleashing itself, using the Dragon Overlords as tools to complete the disorder and destruction of the universe. This does not contradict the idea that arcane energy is ambient energy left over from creation, since creation ultimately requires Chaos. If you remember your Aquinas, you will know "that nothing can be the cause of itself". As such, you need to break the laws of reality in order to make creation happen. Thus, the world was "forged out of Chaos" by the High God.
It was only after Takhisis taught the secrets of sorcery and mysticism to mortals that she was able to bring this power under control. With the techniques for sorcery back into mortals hands, the situation stabilizes. This, if mortals knew about it, would certainly make a strong case for the sorcerers claim that they bring chaos into order by shaping magic into spells.
Thus, with magic stabilized, Takhisis turns to the mortals that she is completely able to dominate... the dead. They start stealing magic from their living counterparts, which allows Takhisis to finally harness it at last.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The WoHS have more of a structured learning system. They do have a certain amount of self-discovery to them, but they are taught how to go about that path of self-discovery.
I don't see it. What to wizards of sorcery learn? They learn how to say "uh" and "oh" and other vowel sounds properly, how to properly write magical script. Plus, look at the philosophical underpinnings of Raistlin's old master. "You must first learn to give of yourself before the magic works for you". Now that fits with what we were talking about with in regards with the symbiotic relationship wizards have with the "life of magic" but that is hardly a scientific thing to say.
Sorcerers on the other hand putter around in dorm rooms in the academy, present their discoveries to their peers in a colloquial atmosphere, and constantly experiment in order to find those discoveries. They have very little concern for "beauty" or "truth" in regards to magic, or of "forging the soul".
Originally posted by ferratus
I don't see it. What to wizards of sorcery learn? They learn how to say "uh" and "oh" and other vowel sounds properly, how to properly write magical script. Plus, look at the philosophical underpinnings of Raistlin's old master. "You must first learn to give of yourself before the magic works for you". Now that fits with what we were talking about with in regards with the symbiotic relationship wizards have with the "life of magic" but that is hardly a scientific thing to say.
I guess you can say that there is a certain amount of artistry to High Sorcery. Using the music analogy, anyone can play music, but to make it into something beautiful, you have to give a portion of yourself.
Sorcerers on the other hand putter around in dorm rooms in the academy, present their discoveries to their peers in a colloquial atmosphere, and constantly experiment in order to find those discoveries. They have very little concern for "beauty" or "truth" in regards to magic, or of "forging the soul".
Okay, I think we're using the terms "scientist" and "philosopher" in different ways, but I think we mean something similar.
I see the WoHS as being very structured in their learning. At the same time, they give themselves fully to magic, as a musician does to his music.
I see the sorcerers at the Academy of Sorcery as having some structure, but they also have a lot of freedom. I agree with you in that they seem to experiment more.
Certainly, the old members of the conclave chided Palin for his unorthodox approach to teaching magic at the Academy of Sorcery.
So, I guess I was thinking more along the lines of structure, while Terry thinking along the lines of how sorcerers (like scientists) experiment.
Sorcerors, otoh, are like philosophers at a socratic seminar. They sit around and discuss how they managed to access power yesterday, and how they could refine it with someone elses new trick or whatever.
With sorcery, a sense of progress is palpable. A sense of brand new discovery, made by mortals with their own thought, logic, and resultant experimentation. Sorcery has changed over the last 10 years (Krynnish time) by the hour.
Originally posted by talinthas
wizards are like modern universities. Teachers explain the way things work, students take notes, and every now and then, go do individual research projects, but mainly everyone knows the same stuff.
See, I have never seen the wizards do research projects at all, and I am skeptical that they ever do. As well, that is more of a philosophical thing to do, since philosophical matters require that everyone have a basic understanding of things in common, so that they can use arguments in order to define some sort of truth or meaning to things.
Sorcerors, otoh, are like philosophers at a socratic seminar. They sit around and discuss how they managed to access power yesterday, and how they could refine it with someone elses new trick or whatever.
Philosophers don't learn new tricks. They learn deeper understanding of pre-existing reality. Scientists discover new things, and present their findings to their peers.
Here's how i see it. I'm going to compare Wizards and Sorcerers to the programming world. Wizards are Microsoft people and Sorcerors are Linux/Unix people There, I said it. As a Microsoft hater, well, i think that puts me in the sorceror camp. Here's how i make the comparison.
Microsoft holds a closed non-public domain operating system. You need to buy their operating system in stores. Due to their closed proprietary Operating system, Microsoft users don't change the OS, they only add programs that utilize the OS. Any security features, bugs, loopholes are corrected by Company employees. Wizards have the same thing. The magic gods give wizards the magic system. The wizards create spells very much like creating applications and programs, but they don't mess with the basic magics.
Linux/Unix holds a public domain philosophy. Not only do you get the operating system, you get the CODE for the operating system, so you can make any changes you want. You can make new programs that utilize the OS, but the public domain philosophy allows all users of Linux/Unix to share code, find mistakes, and improve magic on a fundamentally basic level. Sorcerors operate in the same say. they share their experiences with each other. They don't have a higher power giving them their rules of operation.
Both groups makes new applications. Both sides do research. Both sides are developing their magic. Both sides express their artistic side through their code. Both sides can make the most wonderful games and services.
Ultimately, that's the difference between Wizards and Sorcerors. Wizards horde their information from outsiders, and use a proprietary magic system from a higher source. Sorcerors have a public information attitude, sharing a non-proprietary source that anyone have change.
So, the issue is not whether magic has life, or makes you feel better, it's based on closed source vs open source.
God this topic bugs me. Probably because in comparing Wizard's conclave with microsoft, it's all about microsoft making sure it's closed source, going far enough to buy lobbyists who will politically illegalize open-source, and the only way to stop it is a grass-roots poor populist politically approach to threaten those same politicans during re-election. God I hate microsoft. You know.... Microsoft was convicted as being a monopoly. And do you see Any sorcerors in the 4th age? no. Damn monopolists. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.Rosisha
Originally posted by Granakrs
God I hate microsoft.
I do all of my writing and design on MS Word v.X for MacOS X. What does that tell you?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I do all of my writing and design on MS Word v.X for MacOS X. What does that tell you?
Cheers,
Cam
That tells me that the Conclave is very influential in all things. :-) I use MS stuff too. Heck, I mainly program on MS Visual Studio. :-( Wizard by profession, Sorcerer at heart.
Granak
Rosisha, who is also forced to use MS though he has Red Hat
Granakrs...Loved your post with the microsoft/linux analogy; the scientist/philosopher analogy was getting rather problematic. ;p I think, along the lines of what Dragonhelm said, people seem to be on the same page...just reading it from a different angle.
So, from a business perspective, if we say that primal sorcery is "everyman's magic" accessible to all, then doesn't that make the WoHS a systematized, possibly even oppressive monopoly? And if we move the analogy into art, with "high" art (opera or realistic painting:high sorcery) and "low" art (pop music or abstract painting:primal sorcery), doesn't that reduce the WoHS to being uppity and judgemental?
I like the WoHS--their tradition is awesome, & at first I didn't like the introduction of primal sorcery into the world--but, essentially, so what if someone wants to do something another way, right? Why can't the WoHS live & let live (besides the fact that this could radically alter the world)? I guess my main question is, what was/is so bad about primal sorcery that 3 gods needed change it into high sorcery?
Originally posted by marius4
I like the WoHS--their tradition is awesome, & at first I didn't like the introduction of primal sorcery into the world--but, essentially, so what if someone wants to do something another way, right? Why can't the WoHS live & let live (besides the fact that this could radically alter the world)? I guess my main question is, what was/is so bad about primal sorcery that 3 gods needed change it into high sorcery?
The gods of magic introduced High Magic because Primal Magic is the magic of Chaos, and hence, in the end it's actually a force of destruction and entropy. It was present in the world since its creation and the passage of the Graygem stirred up the power.
When the first sorcerers unleashed their magic during the Dragon Wars, they set off a series of uncontrollable events similar to a Mini-Cataclysm. That's when the Gods of Magic intervened and took the three to the Bastion, where they were taught the ways of High Sorcery and established the Orders.
Over time, as the Orders grew and prospered, Primal Magic began to fade away...until Chaos returned to the world.
The analogy that I use to compare High Sorcery and Primal Magic is Water and Fire.
High Sorcery is Water... filled with untapped depths that can be dangerous, but filled with wonders...hence why testing is required. To see if those who would plunge into the depths can do so without unleashing the danger.
Primal Magic is Fire... beautiful and intoxicating, a vital source of life - providing cooking fires, heat and light. Yet, in the wrong hands, wildly destructive.
Both are equally powerful and dangerous, both a vital part of existance, but whereas High Sorcery (Water) can be destructive (tidal waves, typhons, etc.), it requires great power in order to unleash such forces... alternately, even the smallest spark can start a wildfire that rages out of control.
It's like Intellectualism vs Emotionalism (Intelligence vs. Charisma). One requires knowledge to wield properly, the other only requires a strong force of personality (like moths playing with flame).
Pardon the weird, disjointed analogies, but it's late, I'm a wee bit tired, and my mind's been in overdrive finishin' up Key of Destiny!
Christopher
Sorcery, otoh, is the leftover magic of creation, inherent in Krynn itself. Until chaos came and unlocked the potential for its use, nearly unraveling the planet, the gods locked down on it. They only wanted magic that they could control, that they fed to the mortals.
This is why Takh, in the guise of fizban, tells palin there is other magic to be found, at the end of Summer Flame. She wants him to discover the higher powers inherent in the planet, which were outside of her realm of usability, so that she can usurp the position of the ruler of creation.
wow. not bad for something pulled out of my pouch =)
Originally posted by talinthas
This is why Takh, in the guise of fizban, tells palin there is other magic to be found, at the end of Summer Flame. She wants him to discover the higher powers inherent in the planet, which were outside of her realm of usability, so that she can usurp the position of the ruler of creation.
Or, alternately, she needed the power quickly, and without the Gods of Magic, who acted as a filter, the only choice was to utilize the power of Chaos that had been stirred up once more... so she taught Palin, finding irony in teaching the "chosen nephew" of one of her greatest 'enemies' to access the power so that she could get the souls of the dead to steal it away... and the only High Magic remaining was that found in magic items ;)
Remember, that the 5th Age said that Sorcery was the first magic...the old magic that had long been established as being a destructive force, hence why the Gods of Magic took action ;)
Now that the world is in a different place, now that Chaos is no longer a true factor, perhaps Primal Sorcery is different and not as destructive.
In the end, don't worry, Primal Sorcery ain't goin' any where ;)
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
The gods of magic introduced High Magic because Primal Magic is the magic of Chaos, and hence, in the end it's actually a force of destruction and entropy.
What's the old saying though..."from destruction, creation springs." Or something like that? ;)
Originally posted by Stormprince
so she taught Palin, finding irony in teaching the "chosen nephew" of one of her greatest 'enemies' to access the power so that she could get the souls of the dead to steal it away... and the only High Magic remaining was that found in magic items ;)
Possible Shadow Sorcerer SPOILER
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I was wondering, Chris...is it considered "canon" that the Shadow Sorcerer was Takhisis in disguise?
I know the Appendix to DoaVM said that, but that apparently can't be taken at face value anymore...and I didn't see any references in the DLCS to Tak being the SS (I haven't had a chance yet to give AoM the good thorough once over I want to, yet). So I was wondering if this was the idea you all were still going with, or if it was someone else now?
Originally posted by Brimstone
I was wondering, Chris...is it considered "canon" that the Shadow Sorcerer was Takhisis in disguise?
I know the Appendix to DoaVM said that, but that apparently can't be taken at face value anymore...
Hmmmm...why not Brim?
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Hmmmm...why not Brim?
I think Tobin is questioning whether the VM appendix is considered canon, as it has been surrounded by a bit of controversy.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I think Tobin is questioning whether the VM appendix is considered canon, as it has been surrounded by a bit of controversy.
And alot of it has already been ignored (the Age of Starbirth part). So I was just wondering if all of it was going to be considered "non-canon" or just parts of it.
Anyway, I never received any responses on the post-chaos war situation on how magic developed. Could the desolations and the dragon overlords be the result of Takhisis using the power of chaos to steal the world?
Originally posted by ferratus
Anyway, I never received any responses on the post-chaos war situation on how magic developed. Could the desolations and the dragon overlords be the result of Takhisis using the power of chaos to steal the world?
No, I think it is explained in the AoM's book as being freakish magic from the Skull Totems...a trait and ability that the alien dragons brought with them.
Originally posted by Brimstone
No, I think it is explained in the AoM's book as being freakish magic from the Skull Totems...a trait and ability that the alien dragons brought with them.
Yes, but did using the Chaos magic to steal the world have the tragic consequence of opening up to invasion by the dragon overlords? After all, the dragon purge was nearly as bad as the cataclysm. Maybe it was just Chaos Magic's entropic principle at work. Maybe Takhisis accidently had a "mishap" as you SAGA players called it. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
Maybe Takhisis accidently had a "mishap" as you SAGA players called it.
LOL! Maybe.
I don't know...I think moving the planet opened it up to invasion to those other dragons. Perhaps it was the use of the Chaos magic that kind of sent out a signal...or some sort of residue that these dragons picked up on...a sort of scent, or something that attracted them to Krynn.
Takhisis using this magic could have also simply caused the world to implode or explode, put it in a region of space where a star was going nova, or have placed it under the control of TSR management. ;)
The point is, that Takhisis, not being a part of creation, couldn't handle the chaos magic used in the creation of the world. Only mortals and other creatures of the world can. Thus the entropic principle of sorcery manifested, and widespread destruction was the result.
Originally posted by ferratus
Thus the entropic principle of sorcery manifested, and widespread destruction was the result.
I was with ya...all the way up until this sentence.
I still think the uber-dragons did this on purpose. They had to have previously known what would happen by creating a skull totem.
I mean, I see where you're going...the dragons used the creation magic to create massive upheavals in climate and geography. But, the one part that doesn't make sense is it being an accident. If it was an accident...then what is a plausible reason for why the alien dragons created a skull totem, if not for the specific reason of "terrain" changes?
The Chaos War was overtly destructive, with Chaos himself trying to destroy the world. The destruction caused by the Scions and Takhisis in the 5th Age was the innate power of sorcery manifesting in the worst possible way. Takhisis wanted to steal the world so she could control it utterly right?
So what happens? Dragon Overlords come, put Krynn in shackles and destroy all they can. Takhisis is left out in the cold, helpless and drained while these five dragons (the five dragons which should serve her) have unlimited power. So the world of Krynn is put under the domination of a great evil by sorcery (satisfying Takhisis' desires in a corrupt way) and doing its best to completely destroy and unravel the universe (satisfying the desires of Chaos).
Frankly I need this, otherwise the desolation just seems so damn senseless from a design point of veiw. At least then it will have a cooler backstory than just "five big dragons felt like it".
Originally posted by ferratus
Frankly I need this, otherwise the desolation just seems so damn senseless from a design point of veiw. At least then it will have a cooler backstory than just "five big dragons felt like it".
What I don't understand is why you need to make it cooler. Five huge and immensely powerful dragons appeared on Ansalon,all but destroyed the native dragon population, created magical artifacts out of said dragon's skulls and used these artifacts to reshape the land itself to suit their tastes, upheaving entire nations and drastically changing climates. Is this not cool? ;)
Go back to the 1st or 2nd or whatever Dragon War where those three wizards fought off the evil dragons but caused all sorts of damage. I don't think that was Chaos jumping forth to do its thing, I think that was just the result of badly trained wizards trying to cast spells way beyond their capability. They simply lost control, just like an apprentice would do in the modern age if they weren't careful and trained themselves well.
Hence the Orders of Magic and the Towers of High Sorcery. Here magicians get training for their magic and don't cause all sorts of destruction (unless they are flinging around fire balls).
I think the inherrent magic of the world, the so-called Chaos magic is just a natural form of energy available to anyone, even Chaos. Remember, it was there BEFORE the Father of All, he was born from it, he did not create it nor does he control it. He has made creatures of pure Chaos, the God's of Krynn are one example, and Paladin certaintly doesn't seem intent on causing destruction wherever possible. Neither does Mishkail. She was made from Chaos too.
Just some thoughts.
Rosisha
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
What I don't understand is why you need to make it cooler. Five huge and immensely powerful dragons appeared on Ansalon,all but destroyed the native dragon population, created magical artifacts out of said dragon's skulls and used these artifacts to reshape the land itself to suit their tastes, upheaving entire nations and drastically changing climates. Is this not cool? ;)
The fourth time a world shaking cataclysm is done to dragonlance, it gets a little old, don't you think?
As for the dragon overlords themselves... oh don't get me started.
As much as I liked the SAGA game system, the 5th Age dragonlance setting was the worst campaign setting that TSR came out with.
I went to my gaming store yesterday, to give the store owner my old dragonlance stuff so I could get credit for the new DLCS. I sold the original modules, but when I pulled the boxed sets out of my bag I almost caused the poor guy to have a stroke. In the what? seven years since the 5th Age came out, and his original order was still sitting there untouched and brand new on the shelves. In fact, I think I was the only customer, and I had demanded a 75% discount. He couldn't even sell them on ebay for enough to make it worth his while.
Of course, he refused to take them, so I'm stuck with these 5th Age boxed sets. Unless someone wants to buy them off me of course.
There is a reason for that folks. It isn't that people just didn't realize how cool the 5th Age was. It was because "5 huge dragons take over everything and if you do anything they kill you" is not a compelling setting.