1) In 2e cosmology Rain, Silt, and Sun aren't (weren't) elements (yes I know Rain, Silt, and Sun are "mapped" to a 2e para-element, but I'm not fond of that mapping)
2) As hard as the suppliment Earth, Air, Fire, and Water tried to make the elements neutral, it turned the base elements E,A,F,&W into the "good guys", and the para-elements into "bad guys". I like the idea of amoral elements.
3) The Athasian para-elements listed above are better suited to be quasi-elements in the 2e system. Rain -> Lightning, Silt -> Dust, and Sun -> Radiance
4) Clerics with access to raise dead was a big no-no in the original Dark Sun. I like that, and I want that back in my campaign.
5) Clerics in Dark Sun weren't magical powerhouses, but rather they were elemental powerhouses that could use their element to make right or wrong. They were specialists, not generalists.
I don't know how exactly to change this. Or, even if I want to change this since I do like the work that was done by the 3e team. But here are a few thoughts:
1) Revise the cleric spell lists to remove the "offending" raise dead spells.
2) Revise the cleric spell lists to remove non-elemental spell references above 4th level.
3) Change good clerics to follow Element and positive based quasi-elements and change bad clerics to follow elements and their associated negative quasi-elements.
4) Something entirely different
5) Nothing at all the system will be fine.
I have put together how the elements, para-elements, and quasi-elements map together. These two lists are shown below. If anyone has any suggestions, or any ideas how this would work, please post them here. I'm looking forward to this discussion.
Ooze <-> Earth <-> Magma <-> Fire <-> Smoke <-> Air <-> Ice <-> Water <-> OozeI do agree that raise dead and the ilk are tough ones in Dark Sun. However, I wouldn't want to rule them out altogether. In my campaign (indeed all my campaigns, not just Dark Sun) all such spells are 1 level higher and cost the cleric one character level to cast. It certainly makes them think long and hard about using such magic.
I'd be inclined to keep the para-elements as para-elements and keep the opposition between elements and para-elements alive. That doesn't mean to say that there are good guys and bad guys. Just that they are pushing in opposite directions. The true elements want to hold back the changes in the Athasian environment, the para-elements want to accelerate the transformation.
-remove the ability of turning and rebuking undead. Instead of that they can turn the opposite element creatures, and strenghten the creatures with their own element.
-also remove the ability to cast cure/inflict spells spontaneously. Instead of that they can cast spells from their own elemental domains spontaneously.
It's OK that they can have Raise Dead, cure spells, and such things, as they can handle the positive and negative energies, but the focus is on elemental energies. To make them a bit compensated against undead they can have a few spells form the wizard spell list like disrupt undead on 0th level, that's quite fine on this setup.
My humble opinion only...
Regarding clerics as adventuring classes in 2e, I'm not sure I agree with that. A fire priest could "lay the smack down" just as much as any other character class.
I guess my thought was that clerics on athas resembled the old 2e elemental wizards more than normal clerics. They were tasked to spread the faith of the elements, but they weren't tasked with any virtues or morals. In fact life was more a practicality than anything that should be defended to a cleric.
I would like to be able to remove the cleric's ability to restore life (raise dead). Under the current rules an air cleric can cast the diametrically opposed spell earthquake, and I would like to see that also not an option. Why would a earth elemental want a cleric of the earth to be able to use a word of chaos?
I guess I have too many questions like that for me to fully embrace the system. However, the more I think about it, the more I realize that only a few changes to the spell lists will probably be necessary.
Of course, those changes are unofficial, and can be used by anyone. :D
When it comes down to it, the elemental planes have divine powers in them. Maybe not capital G-Gods, but nevertheless, elemetal lords or powerful entities. My take is that the collective entities of the plane of fire all contribute to fill the divine magic of a fire cleric. It is still divine energy, totally unrelated to arcane magic.
PrCs can easily be created that encompass more of an elemental manipulator bend to the cleric, at the cost of some spell casting levels, base attack progressions, or other normal clerical benefits. To me, this route seems far simpler and more likely to be incorporated by the general community that replacement classes. Not that your idea is bad. I'd just rather see more things that mesh with the system than seeing the wheel reinvented time and again.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
It wasn't long ago someone explained why taking away spontanous cure/inflict is a really bad idea...
Yep, and it's a pretty good case against removing the spontaneous cure/inflict spells too...
Of course, I've toyed around with the idea that there is a set list of spells (not necessarily domain spells) associated with each element, at each level, which can also be spontaneously cast by clerics (not replacing the other mechanic, adding to it instead). Of course, it will affect the power of the cleric class...
2) As hard as the suppliment Earth, Air, Fire, and Water tried to make the elements neutral, it turned the base elements E,A,F,&W into the "good guys", and the para-elements into "bad guys". I like the idea of amoral elements
Try throwing a loop into this bit of moral analogy to screw with your PCs. I had a brief side adventure where the PCs had to stop two clerics working in unison (an earth and water cleric, both evil). To do this, they needed the aid of a silt priest (CG) who helped a small community on the coast by keeping the silt from over running the town. The two evil clerics had found a small underground resevoir and wanted to tap it and turn the ofending and unnatural town that harbored a vile mage (a preserver) into a giant mud pit. The PCs met and interacted with the evil clerics never realising that they were evil (they merely took the same assumption that earth and water clerics were all good guys) and later, when they had to seek the counsel of the silt priest, they were very reluctant due to having the same generalized assumptions.
While the broad picture may paint earth, air, water, and rain clerics as good and magma, silt, sun, and fire clerics evil, that view will only hold true if you run it that way in your game. Fire clerics are not always indescriminant pyromaniacs. They could just as easily be the protectors who chase away the dark shadows of the night. Magma clerics are often seen as wacko, but imagine one helping others with geothermal energy. Silt priest control the ebb and flow of the silt sea like the moon with water tides. They could easily aid travelers crossing the silt, linking two communities together for mutual benefit (think North and South Ledopolus). Try breaking a few sterotypes. Its much more fun that way. Of course, once the sterotypes are broken, reintroduce the sterotype just too throw the PCs for yet another loop.
I've seen a feat on the web, what it does it that you can use "normal" spells to cast domain spells... Maybe give that to Clerics? Or why not make it so that Clerics spontaneously cast domain spells ? Or at least Domain spells with their Element [Attribute] ... But of course remove the Spontaneous Cures..
Also, in one of the DS3 versions, clerics were getting a third domain. This could be a way to enlarge the elemental spells that clerics have access. Perhaps give 1 additionnal domain at 10th (WITH special abilities), and two more domains, one at 13th and one at 16th, each in the linked domains, but WITHOUT the abilities.
This was explained, and covered in a message that was posted within the last week/week & a half here on this very forum.
Yup. I had thrown it out as an example of a house rule my group is playtesting and Flip gave a very succint demonstration of why it doesn't work under the core rules. (It only works if you fiddle quite a bit with the cleric and step away from the concept that they are the party healers. Not really as they are intended in the rules and not really everyone's cup of broy as it messes with the core structure somewhat.) It might make an interesting class feature for a prestige class, however, but this is work for wiser minds than I.... ;)
I've played D&D in its forms for a long time now. The one thing that I have learned about clerics in all the other versions AD&D, AD&D 2e, D&D, etc is that they memorize cure spells when they can. The spontaneous cure and inflict is great because it gives the cleric the option of actually casting spells that aren't cure.
If that weren't there, many clerics wouldn't cast any thing else.So, in my original post, I don't want to remove the spontaneous cure / inflict ability for clerics.
Okay, with that out of the way, I think that perhaps the question that I need to fully answer before I do any work on changing the cleric is answering what the role of the cleric is on Athas.
I feel that the cleric on Athas is called to promote the good of their patron element. The elemental lords do not care how their goals are accomplished, but they want them to be accomplished. Any altrusim that comes through in the goals of the elements are there for pragmatic and not ideological reasons. Conversely, any nefarious goals are there for pragmatic and not ideological reasons. The issue of good or bad is placed solely on the whim of the priest. If they want to do good deeds so be it, if they want to be vile then that's fine too so long as their actions promote the goals of the elemental lords.
Because of this, what abilities would an elemental lord grant their followers? Would they grant the ability to use a diametrically opposed element to further their cause (i.e. fire using water spells)? Would the elemental lord have access to diametrically opposed powers to even grant? Does breaking the natural cycle of life and death hurt the elemental cause?
Most cleric spells in 3e are there because gods are after "hearts and minds". Clerics on Athas are not tasked to win over the "hearts and minds" of others, just to further the elemental presence on the planet. So does a word of chaos further the elemental goals? I suppose it depends. But does a wind wall further the goals of elemental earth? I think that's a lot more difficult to answer.
Any thoughts or opinions on this subject?
I feel that the cleric on Athas is called to promote the good of their patron element. The elemental lords do not care how their goals are accomplished, but they want them to be accomplished. Any altrusim that comes through in the goals of the elements are there for pragmatic and not ideological reasons. Conversely, any nefarious goals are there for pragmatic and not ideological reasons. The issue of good or bad is placed solely on the whim of the priest. If they want to do good deeds so be it, if they want to be vile then that's fine too so long as their actions promote the goals of the elemental lords.
To my mind, this is a very Judaeo-Christian slant on the cleric class. It doesn't really too well on Athas. Athasian clerics, I reckon, are intermediaries. Much like witch doctors or voodoo houngans they know how to intercede with the elemental spirits of Athas, they know how to win their favour and they are quite ready to do so for their own purposes or simply for a fee. This is not an uncommon way for holy men to work in many cultures.
Very few clerics, I imagine, see themselves as servants of the elements so much as servants of the tribes they are part of. Their role is not to serve the spirits they commune with but to win the blessings and favours of those spirits for their people. My favorite Dark Sun character was a halfling water cleric who functioned in just this way.
Certainly, the elements ask for favours in return for their help but the relationship is one of 'quid pro quo' rather than that the cleric feels he has a moral obligation to serve his 'elemental masters'.
Agreed that clerics serve the will and goals of the elemental lords, but what is that will. I honestly enjoy the idea that in a general sense, core elemental clerics exist to preserve the natural elements of Athas and slow the decay of the world, whereas the para-elemetal clerics exist to accelerate the decay of the world, or in the case of rain, the decay should be directed backwards to the blue age. A sun cleric is capable of providing shade and lessening the sun's impact, but he'd would rarely have a desire to do so. His main goal is to have the sun shine, and to bake the land under it to a sterile salt flat. Considering the goals, it's a stretch they would be a good alignment, but they might be. Perhaps they feel that baking the world to a crisp is for the better good. The sun lords don't care his motive, so long as he carries out their will.
Earth Air Fire and Water also mentioned an interesting thing which is a good seed for campaigns: the elements constantly war with each other on the elemental planes, and the outcome of these battles has effect on Athas. The example was a big victory of the silt element, and the level of the Sea of Silt increased by a foot in that month. Nice idea to use if somebody likes it.
Originally posted by Afghan
To my mind, this is a very Judaeo-Christian slant on the cleric class. It doesn't really too well on Athas. Athasian clerics, I reckon, are intermediaries. Much like witch doctors or voodoo houngans they know how to intercede with the elemental spirits of Athas, they know how to win their favour and they are quite ready to do so for their own purposes or simply for a fee. This is not an uncommon way for holy men to work in many cultures.
So what you are suggesting is that Athasian clerics are not clerics, but shamen? That's fine, but then the "cleric" might not have any real affinity towards the element, other than the pact that they have made. Would the granting power be okay with the fact that they have a sub-contractor rather than a servant?
My original statement made a few days ago about elemental wizards are then more appropriate under this.
Certainly, the elements ask for favours in return for their help but the relationship is one of 'quid pro quo' rather than that the cleric feels he has a moral obligation to serve his 'elemental masters'.
Well then some of the questions I have posed about the powers granted are even more pressing. Would an air elemental want to grant an earth based power? Would that elemental even be able to grant that ability?
And that's why the earlier example of the silt cleric protecting the village from silt is wrong. The silt cleric doesn't hinder silt's conquer, it doesn't matter if a puny village is there
To clarify, the silt priest was indeed protecting the village and the small amount of herding land (roughly 6 miles or so), but he was also spending time furthing the cause of his patron element elsewhere. Ten or so miles down the estuary he was creating an inland silt bed. Eventually the choice would have to be made to either turn away from his chosen element and serve the village or to continue his service to the Lords of Silt and allow the village to be overtaken. Which choice the priest made depended very much on the influence of the PCs during the adventure. Their heroics and selfless acts would have turned the priest away from his element, but if they acted with only self interests, that would have pursuaded the priest to turn against the village. This was all to follow after their adventure and their return to the village several months later. Sorry, I don't like static NPCs that are black and white, I like them changing and evolving like real three dimensional people do ;).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Sorry, I don't like static NPCs that are black and white, I like them changing and evolving like real three dimensional people do ;).
Hear hear!
Originally posted by Quarion
So what you are suggesting is that Athasian clerics are not clerics, but shamen? That's fine, but then the "cleric" might not have any real affinity towards the element, other than the pact that they have made. Would the granting power be okay with the fact that they have a sub-contractor rather than a servant?
My original statement made a few days ago about elemental wizards are then more appropriate under this.
The fundamental difference, so far as I can make out, between arcane and divine magic is that arcane magic works by manipulating dumb forces. Divine magic involves an appeal to agents - who of course have their own agenda. I do agree that wizards tend to have a set of spells more appropriate to an elemental cleric but, ultimately, clerics are interested in doing certain sort of things - principally tending to their community. Granting the ability to hurl fireballs might be more natural for the fire spirits but curing and blessing are far more tradable.
How do the elemental spirits feel about working through sub-contractors rather than servants? They don't have a lot of choice. The elements are amoral things - nobody is going to feel a moral duty to serve an element rather than their tribe. On the other hand, if they are being granted power by those spirits it is in their interests to work to enhance that power. The elementals don't want vast numbers of mortal servants. On the other hand, a few competent individuals are able to accomplish things that are harder by other means. It is a relationship of mutual benefit.
Well then some of the questions I have posed about the powers granted are even more pressing. Would an air elemental want to grant an earth based power? Would that elemental even be able to grant that ability?
Clerics have always had access to rather odd spells. Why should a cleric of Pelor, for instance, have access to animate dead? Just because their patron is able to grant the power it doesn't mean to say they can use it scot-free. I daresay that an air spirit could call in a few favours for his mortal proxy, pull a few strings and get him his earthquake. But air spirit is going to be saying, "I'm really going out on a limb for you here. You had better be prepared to reciprocate." Again, quid pro quo.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
To clarify, the silt priest was indeed protecting the village and the small amount of herding land (roughly 6 miles or so), but he was also spending time furthing the cause of his patron element elsewhere. Ten or so miles down the estuary he was creating an inland silt bed. Eventually the choice would have to be made to either turn away from his chosen element and serve the village or to continue his service to the Lords of Silt and allow the village to be overtaken. Which choice the priest made depended very much on the influence of the PCs during the adventure. Their heroics and selfless acts would have turned the priest away from his element, but if they acted with only self interests, that would have pursuaded the priest to turn against the village. This was all to follow after their adventure and their return to the village several months later. Sorry, I don't like static NPCs that are black and white, I like them changing and evolving like real three dimensional people do ;).
That's quite okay! I like it and it makes sense now.
Originally posted by Afghan
I do agree that wizards tend to have a set of spells more appropriate to an elemental cleric but, ultimately, clerics are interested in doing certain sort of things - principally tending to their community. Granting the ability to hurl fireballs might be more natural for the fire spirits but curing and blessing are far more tradable.
I don't agree. One of the main problem is that Athasian cleric is very different from the traditional cleric. They don't have church and community to tend. Most of them wanderers.
And the elemental powers are less powerful than real gods. They can't grant abilities outside their main focus. I think opposite elemental abilities to grant is impossible for them.
It's only my 0.2 cent...
Originally posted by Nagypapi
I don't agree. One of the main problem is that Athasian cleric is very different from the traditional cleric. They don't have church and community to tend. Most of them wanderers.
And the elemental powers are less powerful than real gods. They can't grant abilities outside their main focus. I think opposite elemental abilities to grant is impossible for them.
Hmmm. But why would anyone want to be a cleric then? Wizards do it so much better. Even psions have a more varied and useful set of abilities than what you're suggesting. What's in it for the cleric?
It's just that a fire cleric will never cast a spell flavoured to earth, air, or water, or even magma, silt, sun, and rain. There spells will be fire. They can bless fire, and create fire, and create a firestorm, and create a fire chariot. They can also heal and bless and remove curses and turn undead, like any cleric, although the feel of these effects will probably have a thematic fire component.
Originally posted by Afghan
Hmmm. But why would anyone want to be a cleric then? Wizards do it so much better. Even psions have a more varied and useful set of abilities than what you're suggesting. What's in it for the cleric?
Don't forget that characters don't think in game mechanics, and not even aware of them. They just see the power an elemental cleric wields and want it for themselves. Most Athasians won't see a wizard and hate them anyway.
Even if a player chooses a certain class, the character (from his/her point of view) has not such choices. An orphan child can be raised by psions, fighters, druids, clerics, whatever. The player decides in the background of the character, but this background is done such way to suit the players decision.
As a compromise I went through all the spells that were used by Clerics and clasified them as an elemental or non-elemental spell. I did the same for the Druid spells as well. After doing that I took the elemental spell list and removed all of those druid spells that were already being used in domain lists.
With the remainder of the spells I classified them into Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Silt, Rain, Magma, Sun, and All. If these elemental spells are applicable to more than one element then I made them a part of multiple elements.
The game change to this is that an air cleric no longer can get spells outside of the air elemental domain (i.e. no more air clerics casting earthquake). Here is the list of elemental spells from the druid and cleric spell lists:
Clerics need some raw elemetal spells, but being clerics, I think they should only have a few. They have elemetal storm, and elemtal strike, I am not sure they need much more than that.
I'd also be tempted to convert a few more of these into generic elemental spells.
Wall of fire could be elemetal wall.
Air walk could be element walk (redundant for earth, but you could say it leaves no footprint, useful for silt and magma, sun.....hmmmm, not sure)
magic stone could be elemental projectile
meld into stone is meld into element (bonus move if air, bright but incorporeal for sun, harmless immersion in silt, whatever)
Stone tell is easy to expand
obviously they can't all be converted (continual light is unlikely to ever be a silt spell), but many of them can. The different manifestations could give some real flavour to the cleric.
Originally posted by Xeros
I would be very hesitant about adding wizard spells in at all. It's a fine line between granting elemental power to a cleric, and depriving the niche of a wizard.
Yeah that's my thought as well. However, if you look at the list above, you'll notice that there aren't many elemental spells available for each level to choose from. I am hoping that by adding some spells from other sources, I'll be able to change that. But I'm still holding the possibility of using (slightly) modified elemental wizard spells.
Wall of fire could be elemetal wall.
Air walk could be element walk (redundant for earth, but you could say it leaves no footprint, useful for silt and magma, sun.....hmmmm, not sure)
magic stone could be elemental projectile
meld into stone is meld into element (bonus move if air, bright but incorporeal for sun, harmless immersion in silt, whatever)
Stone tell is easy to expand
That definately was a thought of mine as well. But as you pointed out some of the generic element spells just wouldn't be practicle. Or they would make the spell too powerful for the current level.
As always, I am open to flames and arrows! :D