One thing I notice, though, is that here we are in a setting that is devoted to dragons, yet we limit ourselves on draconic materials in the setting.
For example, we don't see any examples of half-dragons (beyond the one short story by Knaak on Liam). The role of a half-dragon is already filled by draconians and dragonspawn anyway.
We also don't see dragon blood being used to explain sorcerers, although that could possibly tie in with how DL sorcerers work.
I'm curious to know what you guys think of draconic elements. Can there be such a thing as overdoing it in those regards? Or do you think we're limiting ourselves?
Anyway, it just seemed like an interesting topic to discuss.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Dragonspawn is another variant of this, although it is more of a corruption rather than a new race of draconic humanoids.
And the draconian isn't a corruption!?!
;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
And the draconian isn't a corruption!?!
;)
Well, it is, but not quite in the same manner. It's a corruption of an unborn dragon that has not had the chance to experience life. Dragonspawn are more of a corruption of the body as well as living spirit or an individual, which is a corruption also of the individual's life experiences.
Anyhoo, back on topic...
This becomes even more important in a setting such as Dragonlance. I've always maintained that DL dragons are far different from FR and GH dragons, and throwing 8 new draconic races, bloodtypes, and ancestries seems to dilute the importance and majesty that DL dragons deserve.
They start out as legends in the War of the Lance, become fearsome agents of evil, are discovered to also be agents of good, and then later aid the mortals in the defense of Krynn from Chaos. In the Age of Mortals, most are killed and their power stolen by alien dragons, and the Overlords dominate the scene - but they're still only a handful.
Dragonlance therefore doesn't even have nearly as many draconic themes as the Realms or Greyhawk, each of which have scores and scores of dragon cults, dragon mages, half-dragons, dracoliches, dragon-blooded sorcerers, dragon hunters, etc etc.
Cheers,
Cam
In the Desolation I see dragon cultists that devote their lives to following the dragons there. We could add more dragon magic items than dragon orbs and dragon lances. Again looking into the Desolation (sorry there are just so many dragons there) there are the headless remains of hundreds of dragons from the Dragon Purge. I'm sure their bones and scales could be used for a number of new types of magic items... if you're strong enough to travel the Desolation and find them in the Sea of Cinders, heh.
Not too long ago Dragon magazine had their annual dedication to dragons with lots of cool ideas like dragon spells, and magic items tailored for dragons. Heck I think it might be kind of cool to have a campaign where I transform all the players into dragons! That would be sweet! They would adventure as dragons and get attacked by knights, heh taht could be really fun! oops sorry got off topic. Anyway I think there are always more possibilities for dragons, we just need to come up with them. Personally I'm looking forward to the Draconomicon (sp?). I think that should offer some neat ideas as well.
[Edit] LOL, everyone likes the minimal dragon approach and I'm thinking of new ways to add them. Hee hee.. oh well to each is own.
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
[Edit] LOL, everyone likes the minimal dragon approach and I'm thinking of new ways to add them. Hee hee.. oh well to each is own.
That's okay, Kip. It's just that to me, dragons are getting close to drow in terms of "how much has this been overdone". Even so, I offered some dragon types back when the Adlatum project was in its infancy.
Think of it for a moment: before Soth, a Death Knight was just one of the handful of cool monsters in an otherwise pretty awful Fiend Folio (1st ed).
But Lord Soth became such a fully realized villain, his history and motivations became so much more important than the fact he was a Death Knight. The Death Knight element became a part of that identity - but not the whole of it. He was Lord Soth first, death knight second.
The result is probably one of the best realized "monsters" ever created for D&D.
The Draconians need similar treatment. Don't feel constrained by the baaz/bozak/kapak etc descriptions and restrictions. Make em individuals. Dig your Savage Species out, use the new feats in DLCS for Draconians and make your Draconians individuals with a purpose and motivations. Make it a VILLAIN worth fighting.
You wont a Sorcerer spell casting kick ass draconian that happens to be a baaz? Make one. Never mind the run of the mill Baaz - make yours special.
Do it with an Aurak and make a fully realized villain to rival even Soth. Auraks are extremely powerful. To reduce it to a mere monster misses out on so much that you can add to the creature -and to your campaign. Add a little more *pizazz* and you can have a Villain to rival a Highlord - or Overlord.
And, if anyone has played any of the OLD pc Dragonlance games played Dark Queen of Krynn. Enchanted Draconians. Auraks, that blow up in delayed fireballs, bozaks into ice storms, baaz that turn to stone after each hit, kapaks and the acid lakes, and sivaks and their small meteor storms. Toss 1 of them into a pack of regulars, and they get a nice suprise.
However, I think Kip is right in that we can have many magical items designed with draconic themes, and adventures featuring dragon characters. In fact, a mini-campaign featuring an adventure designed specifically for dragon PC's wouldn't be a bad idea. (Not officially of course, but for something to put up on the Nexus).
I'm adding the "Dragon Disciple" prestige class to my campaign, which will give characters a chance to transform into a creature similar to a dragonspawn due to serving a draconic lord (such as Fume or the lords of the Dragon Isles). I'll have to see how much dragonspawn differ from half-dragons. I assume dragon-spawn don't have breath weapons for example. After all, while being a dragonspawn might be a curse, there is no reason that a gradual transformation (such as Dhamon suffered) wouldn't also be a good character path.
Originally posted by ferratus
I'll have to see how much dragonspawn differ from half-dragons. I assume dragon-spawn don't have breath weapons for example. After all, while being a dragonspawn might be a curse, there is no reason that a gradual transformation (such as Dhamon suffered) wouldn't also be a good character path.
Dragonspawn do have breath weapons. They also have death throes related to their breath weapons - kill a blue dragonspawn, and it explodes in a flash of lightning. Unlike half-dragons, dragonspawn always have wings. However, only humans and half-elves make viable dragonspawn, as the remainder become abominations. Sable, of course, being the dragon that she is has no problem with that and has a good amount of ogre and elf dragonspawn in her realm.
Cheers,
Cam
Edit: Just to add that, of course since every group is different, if there are people out there have fun fighting/talking/trading/seeing a dragon every session they are doing everything right.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Reminds me when I played in a (thankfully short-lived) Ravenloft campaign. Our DM kept throwing vampires at us at every corner and teleporting us around in the Mysts. After a while, it all degenerated into a parody which brought the whole game to a halt.
OMG, that reminds me of a Shadowrun campaign I played in at one point. The DM had so many vampires, it wasn't funny. At one point, we encountered a guy, and after someone at the bar we were at in the game mentioned that the guy had something strange about him, I said that he was a vampire.
Whichever NPC was at the bar with me asked my character how he knew that the other guy was a vampire. I had to put my BS Feat into motion, and I said that my character had seen enough vampires in his time that he could figure out that this one was a vampire.
Translation: The DM was fixated on vampires!
Anyhoo, to add to this discussion some...
I think we can agree that too much of a good thing can be bad.
Now, let's take some draconic elements that are non-standard for DL. How do you feel about them being a one-in-a-million thing? For example, I doubt I would have dragon disciples in my DL game as a standard. But I may allow a one-in-a-million dragon disciple as the only character of its kind in the entire setting.
Thoughts on this?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Now, let's take some draconic elements that are non-standard for DL. How do you feel about them being a one-in-a-million thing? For example, I doubt I would have dragon disciples in my DL game as a standard. But I may allow a one-in-a-million dragon disciple as the only character of its kind in the entire setting.
Thoughts on this?
I would suggest that if one includes too many one-in-a-million examples of creatures in a campaign, then one-in-a-million encounters become standard. If you think about it, there's a reason certain encounters are set aside as non-standard - it's because they don't fit the themes or flavor of the setting. Far better to include ones that do, and spice those up with interesting variants and quirks, than bring in some unique encounter based on a restricted or banned creature.
Cheers,
Cam
Dragons are a critical part of Dragonlance, thus many draconic themes. But remember that old saying about to much of a good thing. The Dragonspawn and so many nearly indomitable Overlords was somewhat over the top (Overlords made Dragonlance to much like Knaak's Dragonrealm).
Just avoid the "in your face" and always in the forground kind of Draconic themes. Use them sparingly.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Dragonspawn do have breath weapons. They also have death throes related to their breath weapons - kill a blue dragonspawn, and it explodes in a flash of lightning.
Which is really not even a dragonspawn characteristic anymore.
What with the Draconian Breath Weapon Feat and the Empowered Death Throe Feat. Both of which I'm not a real big fan of. Now, any drac can have a breath weapon...and all dracs can explode upon death.
Why don't we just retcon dragonspawn out of existance?
Originally posted by Brimstone
Which is really not even a dragonspawn characteristic anymore.
What with the Draconian Breath Weapon Feat and the Empowered Death Throe Feat. Both of which I'm not a real big fan of. Now, any drac can have a breath weapon...and all dracs can explode upon death.
Why don't we just retcon dragonspawn out of existance?
Think of it this way. It takes the sacrifice of a draconian to create dragonspawn. The connection is only natural.
Besides, dragonspawn have the cool aspect of corrupting the very soul of the transformed individual. It's an aspect of spawn that needs further defining.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
OMG, that reminds me of a Shadowrun campaign I played in at one point. The DM had so many vampires, it wasn't funny. At one point, we encountered a guy, and after someone at the bar we were at in the game mentioned that the guy had something strange about him, I said that he was a vampire.
Whichever NPC was at the bar with me asked my character how he knew that the other guy was a vampire. I had to put my BS Feat into motion, and I said that my character had seen enough vampires in his time that he could figure out that this one was a vampire.
Translation: The DM was fixated on vampires!
Hheheh, yup. Personally, I think vampires are nice and mystique but again, hordes of them is just ridiculous. So far, on my current DL campaign, my players have only seen (not even fought) a vampire. It was Kryll (from the TotL cards). They were fairly low level, on one of their adventures before the WotL and they went to his mansion in Abanasinia ready to stake him. After going through the entire house fighting barely anything they were so scared that when Kryll's carriage arrived at the front gates (in pure Bram Stoker's Dracula fashion they just doubled back and exited the estate throug the opposite side... quietly. :D
Now, let's take some draconic elements that are non-standard for DL. How do you feel about them being a one-in-a-million thing? For example, I doubt I would have dragon disciples in my DL game as a standard. But I may allow a one-in-a-million dragon disciple as the only character of its kind in the entire setting.
Thoughts on this?
Hmm I tend to agree with Cam on this one. And if you mean a PC it's even more jarring. Sure that PC may be the only dragon disciple in the entire (little
planet but for the players, they're still going to see it at every session for the rest of the campaign. It won't feel unique.I actually don't have much problem with Dragon Disciples opposed to say, half-dragons. I would replace the "dragon blood" with "draconic ritual" like the next step after becoming a Dragon Mage such as Ulin was. I'd still make it rare and it technically wouldn't be the same class.