But how does spellcasting work in DLCS? Raistlin is weak and every spell he casts drains him of physical power.
Is this a result of the test, and is the test different for all mages, and if so what does the DLCS say about it?
If not, then how do you roleplay the physical drain of casting spells? Do you take subdual damage equal to the spell's level?
We just got a wizard in our DL group and the DLCS isn't out yet, so I really need some quick info fast just to get started until I can get my hands on the DLCS (Getting it this Friday! YAY!)
There are a few variants around, a search for "Curse of the Magi" on the boards should help you out.
Likely part of that was due to the after affects of his Test of High Sorcery, and while many mages suffer negative after affects depending upon what happened in the test I can seldom recall any that suffered quite as severely as he did... the golden skin, eyes that saw naught but death and decay, his wracking cough and ruined health etc.
you'll be an almost useless character, since you'll only be able to cast 3-6 spells in a day before you fall unconcious for the rest of it.
Not often one associates Raistlin with uselessness...
Probalby one of the best series for indepth look at the characters motivations, thoughts, and personality, brilliant piece of writting, and a litteral work of art. Of course, Weis and Hickmen are the two finest writers in all history so that works.
Rosisha
As to it being unbalanced, I don't think so really. Wizards have spells that can do far more damage than a few sword swings so it works well that they have to pay a price. Especially that people seem to be forgetting that it's a "concentration" check, not a constitution check. So your ranks of concentration will help...which every good wizard will have maxed. ;)
As far as Raistlin being the only wizard to suffer like this I assume that is because of his constitution being so low. Many of the DL books talked about wizards growing weak with spellcasting (this is, in fact, why the wizards decided to close the towers of high sorcery instead of fighting a war against the Kingpriest to keep them open). And, in the Legend of Huma, Magius all but passes out when he's fighting off the Black Guard. It's obvious that he didn't run out of spells as such a high level wizard (14th level in 1st edition and probably higher now) didn't use up ALL his spells in one encounter that lasted a few rounds. He just couldn't take so much spellcasting at one time.
All in all I think it's a very good way for DL to deal with spellcasting and it gives a great flavor. What's more, I don't think it hurts the class at all. In fact, it helps even out higher level spellcasters quite a bit. It also gives undead spellcasters an edge they have not had since 2nd edition. ;)
Rosisha
Arandur
So in one day, my wizard will take out 4 HD of creatures for a short amount of time. The fighter, on the other hand, could take out far more then that over the day, and the sleep he inflicts is a tad bit more permement.
Lets look at True Strike, sure you'll probably hit, but at the same time what are you using as a weapon? A staff? you do 1d6. A dagger? you do 1d4. A light crossbow gets you up to 1d8, and a heavy 1d10. But thats just once, or one enemy. On the other hand a fighter with their better BAB and weapons will consistently do more damage over the course of a battle then you will ever do with one hit guided by True Strike.
You did bring up creative spell casting, and I have no problem with this. Right now i'm playing a Gnome Illusionist (not a DL campaign) who specializes in Shadow Magic and I have become a master of unique applications of spells. But it doesn't matter because I run out of spells quickly during the course of the game. I need them to survive basic encounters, and usually one of my spells becomes "Mage Armor" and my other spell Umbral's Minor Fortification. I also spend most of my time fleeing because our DM has fallen in love with creatures that absorb magic. As I am one of two magic using characters, and the other is powerful enough (2 levels higher) to go over the DR, it leaves me kind of stuck in the sand.
Mages are already weak, they don't need to loose their one advantage from spells. They can't wear armor. They don't have hit points. They don't have a good BAb. They don't have good weapons. They do have spells. those are intended to be versatile, strong, and able to kill off in huge numbers at higher levels. This is balanced by the fact that they don't have many spells a day and only learn two a level for each spell level, and many monsters at higher levels can simply sit back and absorb magical damage as they decide which topping goes better on mage: mustard or ketchup.
Rosisha, CEO of the "Association for the Protection of Endangered Spellcasters" - Non profit, tax exempt status, all donations made can be deducted from your income tax. Send donations to Tower of High Sorcery, Wayreth, Care of Thoran est Redois of the Red Robes.
The inherent trade off that the Dungeons and Dragons system makes is that the Wizard is less battle orientated at lower levels (Personally I believe that this is to teach the magician to utilise their mind rather than blasting away with a magic missile). At higher levels the Wizard is a true powerhouse of the game and there is little that fighter classes can do to match the carnage they dish out. This is where a Wizard shines, but that immense power comes at the cost of his earlier level abilities.
It's unfortunate that your GM has taken a liking to Magic Resistant creatures but a fighter suffers the ame problems from beasties with damage reduction.
Personally I think it is pretty well balanced and the spellcasting option discussed above adds 'flavour' to the setting. I for one look forward to using the mechanic in my games and I know that the player running our Qualinesti Wizard thinks it is brilliant. I guess it all comes down to a question of personal taste.
Arandur
Especially that you won't see too many wizards failing these checks really. The system might not work well on other "high magical" worlds like the Forgotten Realms...but this is Krynn. Look at the stats for the Staff of Magius. This is one of the most well known magic items in the world (certainly in the books) and it just isn't the powerful item that you would expect. Krynn is more a low-magic world than others. But the writers tried to bring about this flavor without making it a world where magic is weak or doesn't work well, etc.
So this little optional rule gives wizards some much needed flavor. Besides...I don't know about your higher level games but my players would almost always rather face a 20th level fighter than a 20th level wizard...so this might be just the thing to even the score a bit. ;)
As for the spell resistent creatures, at least wizards have feats like spell penetration to get around this (where as fighters have no non-magical way to get around all kinds of damage reduction).
But, as was stated before, this is an optional rule and a matter of personal taste. What I will say, however, is that I think the use of this optional rule gives the game MUCH more of a "Dragonlance" feel.
Edit: By the way, you might want to consider taking some item creation feats and making wands, scrolls, and staffs. That's what those items are for...adding even more spells to a wizard's daily limit (spells, I might add, that won't cause him to take such concentration checks...giving those items that much more flavor).
A 1st level wizard can have 4 ranks in Concentration, and with the Skill Focus feat can add +3 to that roll. Even if the wizard has a 0 Constitution modifier, that's still a +7 skill modifier to Concentration checks, meaning our meager wizard need only roll a 4 or higher on a d20 to avoid being fatigued.
Continuing the example, by the time the wizard gets to 3rd level and has access to 2nd level spells, he can have a max of 6 ranks, for a total skill modifier of +9. Thus he need only roll a 3 or higher to avoid being fatigued due to spellcasting.
By 5th level the wizard above can have a +11 skill modifier, with the highest level spell he can cast (lvl 3) requiring only a roll of 2 or higher on a d20! This is assuming he doesn't even have a +1 Constitution modifier.
By 7th level the wizard above can have a +13 skill modifer, with the highest level spell he can cast (lvl 4) requiring only a roll of 1 or higher on a d20. Since a 1 on a skill check is not treated as an automatic failure, the wizard can't possible fail to avoid fatiguing himself.
This spellcasting option isn't as tough or restraining as it seems. Sure the wizard has a chance to get fatigued or even exhausted, but it's just like the fighter who has a chance to botch and drop his sword.
It just hit me that almost everywhere you see a story with spellcasters, they always seem to fatigue from casting their spells. I don't think this rule in anyway weakens the wizard, but it makes sure that wizard players don't go wasting spells left and right.
"Hey wizard, could you please cast a tenzer's floating disk we can sit on, and then you can spiderclimb across the acid pool walls?"
The wizard looks at the party with a doubtful expression.
"Here's a rope... Use that!"
Also, I never imagined wizards diving into combat at any level! What kind of mororn would say; "Oh, I got a magic missile, so I'll stand right here next to the fighter and play with fireworks and get the crap beaten out of me!"
A wizard should slowly emerge from behind AFTER the combat has started, throwing intimidate checks left and right, and then unleash a single spell to demonstrate his power, so the creatures freak and run while the fighters mop up the remains.
If the fighters engage a group of draconians and the battle rages, then suddenly the mage steps out from his cover. His hands start to move in ancient gestures while a gust of magical wind grips his robe and a deep echoing voice resonates through the dungeon in an ancient tongue.
The fighters know the familiar sound. The draconians suddenly shift their attention to the spellcaster an fear and anticipation of his spell. The fighters use the moment to gain attacks of opportunity and strike down a large part of the draconians. A single draconian throws himself at the wizard to prevent him from casting his spell, but his slow reactions become his doom as the wizard opens his eyes and in a blinding flash a magical missile pierces the draconian's chest and only a petrified husk hits the ground before the wizard.
The last draconians try to retreat from the horror but are cut down by the focused fighters.
When the battle is over the wizard sighs heavily and reaches for the nearby wall for support. The spell did not come without a price.
"I'll be fine in a minute." He says to the fighter.
When I play wizards I use; Intimidate, Bluff, Spells, Concentration and a bunch of other stuff in a big cumulative "awesome mage" action. It's a helluvalot more fun than bouncing around casting magic missiles like a monkey on drugs.
cheers
True Strike. Rosisha, why use a dagger, crossbow, staff, or any of that when you can use a ray of enfeeblement? Or a ray of anything else, for that matter. A lot more effective than a knife ;)
Your talk of balance issues seems skewed somehow. For some reason because it is possible for Wizards to cast powerful Magics it is balancing to limit their spells per day/hour/increment of time. But the spells of a Wizard are already limited to uses per day. Balancing is a tricky issue, peple, and just spouting that weakening a classes MAIN FEATURE beyond its already limited uses seems asinine to me. And since Fortitude does NOT increase at the same speed as Conc. checks it becomes much easier to fail.
If you really think that Wizards are too powerful, then check out 3.5. Some people say that the Wizard got scrod.:D
So, for those of you with the book..help us out?? Alternatively if the Attribute bonus is still too constrictive then how about being able to cast a number of spells equal to their level before imposing the Curse of the Magi (which is what it is called).
Just a suggestion or two
Arandur
But......you'd better believe that the curse of the magi is going to come into play prior to the War of Souls, when the dead are siphoning the magic away from the casters. What do you think of that?
To answer other coments: my wizard is ALWAYS in the rear lines, and he doesn't have bluff, intimidate etc.
Other comments: our games start at level 1. I have never played a lvl 20th anything in 3.0 or 3.5 rules.
Maybe it captures the feel of the setting, but I don't think so. I rather invision it this way:
Curse of the Magi
Your caster has a limited number of spells per day, after the last one is cast you are magically exhausted until you have some sleep and then you can cast spells again.
Which is how the class always works. Remember, in FR Elminster throws spells aorund all day without care, which is something that wouldn't be possible under regular d&d rules (but they had all those rules regarding him being Mystara's chosen etc etc, one reason I recall being turned off from FR). W&H were, in my not so humble opinion
, were just trying to show how the wizard really was:1) Weak physically (Yes raistlin was weak, he had a D4 hit die! he couldn't take as much punishment as Caramon or Sturm, rather then say in the book "Raistlin hobbles in, barely alive with only four hit points" they said "Riastlin coughs, his body cursed by the very magic he loved." which is better for the story?)
2) Limited Spells per day (if i'm remembering correctly they played the campaign first, story second. Or they wrote and played at the same time. I can't remember. In the game, spell casters had a limited number of spells per day. Which sounds better in the story? "I am out of spells, but damn do I feel spiffy!" or "I have exhausted my magic, DO NOT LEAN ON ME PUNY HALF ELF IDIOT!"
I think what is going on here is that they wrote the story trying to incorporate the elements of the game to make a gritty realistic stories gamers could relate too (i.e. weak spell casters)
Now this is being REtranslated back into the game as a further weakness.
But hey, if you like it, use it. I plan on skipping that rule, and maybe even blacking it out.
Rosisha, who thinks mages are two weak already!
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It's a Fort save against DC 10 + spell level.
Ouch. That's brutal. Good thing it's optional.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
The Curse of the Magi isnt all that bad actually. I am not so certain about the unconscious condition, but the other two conditions are limited to a short time if I remember correctly
Well, if I understand the rule correctly, failing it once brings you to fatigued, failing it again while you're fatigued drops you to exhausted.
Fatigue is listed as a condition that lasts until the caster gets 8 hours of complete rest. Penalties include -2 Str and -2 Dex, can't run or charge.
Exhausted is listed as a condition that lasts until the caster gets 1 hour of complete rest, then he's considered fatigued. Penalties include -6 Str and -6 Dex and limited to half speed.
So, like I said earlier ... ouch.
Arandur
Changing it to Fort save makes sense, as the wizard has to physically withstand the strain of spellcasting, so no argument there, it's a nice change from concentration. But game mechanics wise is a whole new matter. Let's break it down a bit.
Let's assume our wiz has Con 10 +0.
At level one he can cast cantrips without being fatigued on a roll of 10 and level 1 spells on a roll of 11.
50% change is okay for a newbie wizard since he has to get to grips with magic. But to reflect this aswell he only has a few spells to throw around.
At level 5 the wiz has a +1 Fort save.
So cantrips are at a roll of 9 or better, but his newly aquired level 3 spells are at a roll of 12 or better.
It seems his fort save does not grow proportionally to his spell development, making it increasingly more dificult to cast spells without "burning out".
Since the wizard allready has a limited spell selection per day (which is fine with me cuz you really can't hold an infinite number of complex spells in your head. This is explained in the first DL book where Raistlin has to memorise his spells, Rosisha.) the Fort save rule seems a bit too much.
The wizard has a low HD because he does not spend time training his body as the fighters do, it is not a curse, just a matter of priority. If you don't go to the gym and work out, will you then be cursed with bad health because you don't look like Arnold Schwarzenegger? Don't think so.
So we need to get the curse into the game, and I have a few ideas how to get it there.
Either change the existing rules to:
"...Failing a Fort Save will cause the wizard to be fatigued/exhausted for 1d10 minutes."
That way you can pretty much limit the efects to a single combat, and not have it affect the entire day. It has that "Just give me a minute to rest and I'll be fine."
Not all mages should be coughing weaklings like Raistlin, but casting a spell should give you a nasty headache for a short while. So if you want a serious spellcaster you would take feats to enhance your Fort Save, and give some fair stats to CON.
Either that or change it to a Concentration check as mentioned in previous posts.
My desire for a curse of the magi rule is that despite what you said, Rosisha, about the curse allready being implemented in the class, you usually see wizard players who throw spells around like monkeys on speed and never stop to say; "I must rest, my body cannot carry the strain of spellcasting".
I feel that without a curse rule, spellcasters in DL will be just like in any other world. (But nice arguments though, Rosisha, I just don't agree with them.)
Limited spell preparation per day for wizards = fatigue. They can't prepare any more than they do because it taxes them. All out of spells? You're worn out, no more spellcasting.
The Reserves of Strength feat (requirements: Iron Will, spellcaster level 1) lets you decide to cast a spell as 1, 2 or 3 effective levels higher than it is, but you are stunned for as many rounds afterwards. 5th level wizard with fireball? Cast it as an 8th-level spellcaster, 8d6 damage, etc but collapse, stunned, for 3 rounds.
The above represents the wizard who truly pushes himself and ends up being exhausted. It's a great feat and doesn't introduce any "you must make a roll or collapse" mechanic.
Cheers,
Cam
Sure, spellcasting is taxing on your health, but isn't this pretty well represented in their somewhat "limited" number of spells they can cast per day? All these rolls would make it rather frusturating to play an arcane spellcaster, while you see the fighter, barbarian or paladin rip through limitless numbers of encounters without breaking a sweat...
I mean, yeah, it sounds good, and its got the whole "feeling" down thing good, but mechanic wise, it is very unbalanced, and in the end, turns wizards into a very weak and limited class.
If you like it, great. However, I can guarantee that after a few sessions with this, most people will stop playing wizards. I wouldn't with this system. I'd take a cleric, or a fighter. I'd be better off in the long run.
Rosisha
1) I've included the Critical miss (fumble) rule from the DMG.
It makes sense that if a fighter screws up, he loses a turn of activity. IF a wizard screws up a spell, well, he loses too.
or
2) Limit the curse of the Magi rules to intelligence score.
Someone already mentioned that the curse of the magi rule would be ideal for spells given by a high intelligence score. To me, that would mean the player would use the character's normal slots, and use the bonus intelligent spells last. By then, you would be using the last pools of spells in your brain, and i think the fatigue would set it.
or
3) Limit the curse of the Magi rules to spells augmented by the moons
For example, any time a wizard casts a spell that's elevated by an alignment of the moons, or elevated by his moon being in high sanction, the curse of the magi goes into effect. Seriously folks, We're talking about mages who under the right conditions can cast spells at +3 caster level. With that kind of augmentation, I think the magi rule would be great.
Granak
However, based on what you said about +3 levels, yeah a fatigue check there makes a tad bit more sense. Let me work out my faulty reasoning (lol I'm in a WIERD and WIRED mood today)
1) It makes sense cause normally that spell would be outside the casters power, he's channeling more energy. I'm reminded of the recent black out in the Northeastern part of the United States where in the State of Ohio (i think, not sure on this) some power lines went down and more took the load, they became hotter and more fatiqued and then they too broke down. More energy = more wear and tear.
2) One reason i'm against it is pure rules mechanics. I'm fairly sure that if your moon isn't in accension you'd get a -X to your spell casting levels on those spells. I could be wrong, but I think that is how it worked in the Tales of the Lance book.
3) Another reason I'm against it is, from a story perspective, wouldn't the God's of magic boost your character up to handle the magic? i.e. Lunitari "Rosisha of the Red Robes! You are my champion because you have just passed your test! Now go forth and let my power flow through you and I shall help thee smite thy foes!" You know, something along those lines?
4) One reason I could be for this, also depends on how other spell casting classes work. That I need to see the book for. But if the Grey Robes (Knights of the Thorn right?) get no major benefits for being outside of the system, which according to Dalamar was a MAJOR favor, then I would insist that, for game balance, a WoHS gets a fatque check when casting those uber powerful spells.
Thats just my 2 steel
Rosisha, who has a lot of steel, his car just Died! FREE KRYNISH MONEY!
As for the story perspective Rosisha, I think the benefits of the PrC for WoHS are the blessings granted by the Gods of Magic that you mentioned. Knights of the Thorn are not part of the WoHS so they get none of the benefits granted to that PrC (the secrets of magic), they get their own benefits as listed in their PrC.
I guess that's why it's really no big thing to include the curse in our games. I will use the same rules for resting as becoming tired from any other endeavour.
Then again I also use the instant kill rules from the revised (3.5) DMG. So maybe I'm just a nasty little blighter of a GM :D
Arandur
NOTE: This was said to be humerous and ammusing, not as a personal attack
hehehe actually i use the instant death rules sometimes myself, especially if i'm aiming for really gritty realism game. However, I am planning on running a DL campaign soon, and I don't think i'm going to do that. I am setting it before the War of the Lance (no clerics) so they won't be able to get healing as easily.
BTW, does anyone know what the state of Druids are going to be in the 3.5 rules for Pre WotL?
Thanks in advacne. Just a "They exist and have magic" or "they exist but no magic" would be just fine
Rosisha
Originally posted by Rosisha
Thanks in advacne. Just a "They exist and have magic" or "they exist but no magic" would be just fine
Their magic comes from the gods (ditto rangers) so when the gods aren't around, neither is their magic.
Cheers,
Cam
Granted. I know many a combat that doesn't last that long. And even then it's what, a little over half a minute? I wish I knew the mechanic better...
As far as Curse of the Magi. I feel like it should be implemented somehow, but I can't figure out how, nor am I -quite- content with the current mechanic, although it will be undoubtedly more simplistic (and probably better ;) ) than anything I come up with.
We've had a lot of good response to the Curse of the Magi variant rule, as it adds flavor and isn't as debilitating as you might think!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
As it is, I don't think the flavor element is necessary with a rule. I think it can be RPed far easier, and with less stat based consequences. Sometimes its fun to RP your character as a weakling, but what if you're character has a Str of 16, a Con of 15 and you fail you're first role by sheer bad luck? Now you're fatiqued and it seems stupidly ridiculous.
If you're players aren't RPing this then ask them why not: if they say thats not how the envision their character as a Raistlin wannabe, then don't force it on them. I HATE being forced into stereotypes, especially when I see D&D as something that can be used to break stereotypes.
But if thats what you want then I expect you're campaigns to have the following:
- Should all Elves get a -4 Chr because they are always haughty and mean to every other species? Most of the Elves in the DL world do act this way, maybe we should enforce it with a rule!
- Should all Knights of Solamnia become automatically distrustful when they see a mage, and know that, even if they wear a White Robe that are scheming and decietful. Have your Knight constantly make Int checks to "spot their trechery!" Remember, Sturm never trusted Raistlin, and Palin wasn't trusted by the Knight's either.
- Should all barbarians hate everyone who isn't of the plains or mountains etc? Make them automatically get a -4 to all interaction roles because their natural distrust cause others to hate them.
- All Cleric's of Mishkail are women, caring, and tender, and must be young and beautiful.
- All Kender automatically make pick pocket roles whenever near anyone, even if the player wouldn't normally do it because thats the way a Kender is.
Do you get my point? Making a rule to hurt a single player class (these have already been balanced btw, no need to add more) in the name of flavor is ridiculous. It also takes away from the inherent right of the individual to design a character that is right for them, and something that they want to play. Not everyone wants to play in the mold. Character roleplaying should never be legislated!
Rosisha