The campaign I have just begun is set after the War of the Lance but pre-Chaos War and I just thought that this ability doesn't seem to fit the Knighthood at it's conception (I think it does in the Age or Mortals however). I was wondering if anyone else is using a different ability in place of the Sneak Attack. I was thinking of replacing it with the Crown knight ability Strength of Honor but am unsure if this will balance.
Arandur
Arandur
The Knights of Solamnia do just as much sneaking around themselves so why did they not earn the same ability? I mean look at Linsha, Gerard and Odila...
Arandur
But when you are in a battle situation, with both sides already committed, it becomes a standard battle tactic. You have already voiced your intent to attack, the enemy knows you are there, and it's his fault for not seeing you coming. Or do you really think that a knight should announce his presence each and every time to every single opponent he sees on the battlefield? That's a sure way to lose the battle (at the very least you're going to be full of arrows after you stop and shout your intent).
What you refer to in a battle situation covers large amounts of troops and I agree the element of surprise is a giant factor in mass combat but the sneak attack is a more personal one-on-one thing.
As for a knight challenging every opponent to single combat on a battle field that is nonsense. If one takes the reverse of your argument, then by what you have written, that is what the knights of Solamnia do on a battlefiled since they do not get the sneak attack ability that a Knight of the Lily (and a rogue) does.
Arandur
Arandur
I could be wrong, just my interpretation
Arandur
Just because the Knights of Neraka have a tradition of honor and follow the tenets of Law doesn't mean they don't know how to do anything within their power to win. They inevitably twist the letter of the law to allow them to accomplish their goals. If they were nice about it, they wouldn't be evil.
Solamnic: "Let us fight like honorable men."
Lily: "Well said and so it shall be."
Solamnic: "Have at you!"
Lily (feinting to the left and then driving his sword into the Solamnic's gut): "Idiot."
Cheers,
Cam
If I recall correctly, sneak attack doesn't just applying for sneaking up on an unaware guy and stabbing him in the back (and is certainly dishonorable in that sense). It also applies for, say, flanking. And feinting. Very good tactics in combat, and in such a case the sneak attack seems to reflect a more 'take advantage of the moment' style that the Dark Knights are probably more accustomed to.
Actually, Cam said it better, so I'll just shut up.
However, if you feel the sneak attack is just really, really out of flavor, you could always replace it with something else that's precision-based - Like a improved critical (although that's a big benefit), or something. Might be better than replicating the Crowns.Originally posted by The Udjat
Actually, Cam said it better, so I'll just shut up.
You could rename it precise strike, and have it work the way the duelist PrC's ability does. In that case, it's simply a knowledge of the fastest way to kill somebody. Not specific, say, to the Dark Knights but certainly a good solution.
Cheers,
Cam
To paraphrase a Chinese war schalor (sp?), All warfare is deception. The Dark Knights only pay lip service to honor anyway. Indeed the Knights of Neraka are alot closer to the "Real" Knights of the real Middle Ages then the Solamnic Knights, who are the "Romantic/Idealic" Knights. Ofcourse, Dragonlance is a Fantasy Romance in a way.
Originally posted by DaemonAngel
Ofcourse, Dragonlance is a Fantasy Romance in a way.
Yup. DL has been described many times as "romantic fantasy". I think that's why I like it so much.
Knight of the Lily catches an opponent flatfooted then they will Hit him/her where it counts. Is this dis-honorable? No you just found the person weak spot before he had time to react.
2 Knight of the Lily are fighting 1 opponent, they flank him, and thus get sneak attack dmg each hit. This dis-honorable? No this is actually great tactics for anybody. They just cause more dmg when they hit then normal warrior types. (now on a one on one duel this would be di-honorable)
Knight of the Lily jumps out of a covered area and attack the knight on horse getting sneak attack. Now this tactic is dis-honorable.
From the Description of the Bluff Skills
Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers. If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
...
Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
So you can still get the benfits from sneak attack without "sneaking"
FR
I was more worried about the fact that becasue it stacks with the Rogue class ability that it seems a lot more like lurking in the shadows and slitting throats kind of a thing rather than a battle application.
Arandur
Just a trivial point though......prolly doesnt figure into this much.....
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I'd just like to point out an instance where a Knight of the Lily was abhorred at being credited with delivering a sneak attack. Steel Brightblade was horrified that people thought it was he who ran Tanis Half-Elven through with a spear to the back.
Just a trivial point though......prolly doesnt figure into this much.....
Well, Steel was always an odd one. I imagine that the Knight of the Lily is taught to take advantage of any situation in combat. Remember, for the Dark Knights, honor is a tool, not an ideal.
Matthew L. Martin
Basically, I see the Nerekan's definition of honour is not courtesy, or aristocratic "manliness", but rather of obeying the proper chain of command, acheiving the objective, and maintaining rigid self control.
I myself wouldn't have included a sneak attack for a KoN prestige class, but I have no problem with it. Nerekans will do whatever it takes in order to acheive their goals. Lie, steal, and backstab. Unlike Chaotic Evil creatures however, they do not do it for fun and profit. That is how they fundamentally differ from the dragonarmies.