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seeing the bright side...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
harzerkatze
Aug 21, 2003 6:31:48 One problem I have with Ravenloft is seeing the bright side.

I really like the darkness and fear and desolation of the campaign, but in my mind, there has to be a balance. When you play a character in Ravenloft, you at first get less: Less magic and help, less success on your missions, lesser chances of survival. It's part of the world that every victory has to be hard earned, and is probably tainted with a dark side. Don't get me wrong, I like that.
But there has to be something in return for the heroes. They don't get the usual heroic swordfodder fights, they don't get the regular complete victories, they get less magic and items, they have to make tough decisions and worry about their souls - what do they get in return?

It is alright to say: "The darker the shadows, the brighter the light." Ravenloft is in my eyes far more heroic than other D&D campaigns, because success has to be earned harder, and it is more difficult to be a hero. But is that really enough?

The heroes can never really succeed. They can hunt down a monster, but there are always more. Even if they succeed in destroying a darklord (which is almost impossible), the domain isn't freed, it just becomes part of another monster's domain. Every victory is only a temporary respite, not a real victory. Since victories are the aims of heroes, even here Ravenloft offers the characters less than other campaigns.

So what does Ravenloft have to offer to a group of heroes? If they get less chances to succeed in the small scale, no hope to succeed on the large scale, and on top of that get less reward and higher dangers, why should a group want to play in Ravenloft?

What are, in your mind, the rewards of being a character in Ravenloft?
#2
zombiegleemax
Aug 23, 2003 5:31:39 The knowledge of when to run, and the ability to run very quickly. This applies to Call of Cthulhu as well.
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 0:53:32 The heros can win. Even big. Thats not inconsistant with failure to defeat darklords. The difference is between they save their town and their loved ones vs. they become supreamly powerful, crush all evil and set up a utopia.

-Eric Gorman
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 15:38:44 I agree with HvF, seemingly small victories can count really big for certain characters.
Being a ethical good character in Ravenloft is hard, therefor most character has done one or more things in their life that they aren't proud of, and even small victories over evil, can help redeem themselves or make them feel that they have repended their sins.
#5
hida_jiremi
Sep 07, 2003 23:44:09 In a lot of cases, the only reward PCs will ever receive is the simple knowledge that they hold the moral high ground, that the right thing was done. In others, PCs can become powerful enough to create their own pocket of quiet and happiness... for a time. Ravenloft is an exceptionally heroic setting in my mind, but unlike "high" fantasy settings Ravenloft requires more short-term goals and consolation with minor victories. Even if the PCs die achieving their ultimate goal, they've still gotten their reward: they were heroes.

One of my big points in Ravenloft games is that PCs can't often hope for happy endings for themselves - they're too big of targets for that - but they can give hope to others and spread the good fight. Generally, if that's not enough for PCs, then Ravenloft probably isn't the right campaign setting for them. But for the right crew, Ravenloft is likely the most satisfying campaign setting; with every fight so hard-won, the rare complete victory will taste all the sweeter.

Hida Jiremi
#6
lord_of_the_ninth_02
Sep 08, 2003 23:30:01 Sorta reminds me of the So You Want to be a Wizard books by Diane Duane. The main characters are all fighting a being (basically a god), who invented death. They cannot defeat it and they know it. But they also know that they cannot give in, because as long as someone continues to fight it, someone else can go on living. You don't kil the were-wolves so that no one will ever be killed by a werewolf again, you do it because one will be killed by that were-wolf. "Death gets us all in the end, but you can sure make the bastard work for it".
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 18, 2003 10:06:05 That's why, as DM, you must build a PERSONAL attachment between the players and their lands. True, a marauding party of FR hack-n-slashers wouldn't get much gratification from slaying an evil wizard controlling a small village. But what if it was YOUR village, and YOUR people who suffered beneath the evil wizards yoke?

In my opinion, the main theme of Ravenloft is Redemption. The characters are being punished for the sins of their past life (the
previous world they adventured in as outlanders) and they must atone for said sins by overcoming a great evil WITHOUT submitting to its dark taint (hence the Powerz Checks and Terror Tracks).

It's a balance to maintain a firm hold on your characters morality, as the land FOSTERS evil within a character. It WANTS you to become hopelessly non-redeemable. That's when you lose control of your characters soul forever (relagated to NPC status).

Despite what other say, I LOVE Champions of Darkness and Heroes Of Light. Those two accessories break down the components of a "true" Ravenloft campaign.

And I MUCH prefer the "Heroes Of Light" approach. I do NOT run an evil RL campaign.

peace,

MSD
#8
zombiegleemax
Sep 29, 2003 15:24:51
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
And I MUCH prefer the "Heroes Of Light" approach. I do NOT run an evil RL campaign.

In spite of Alexus', um, delightfully evil wrong-doings?
#9
zombiegleemax
Sep 30, 2003 7:08:18
Originally posted by Gemathustra
In spite of Alexus', um, delightfully evil wrong-doings?

He'll get his, believe dat.
It's all part of the master plan.
Mwha-ha-ha-ha!

(now to get working on those posts...)
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 30, 2003 9:58:35
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
(now to get working on those posts...)

*stands ready with his scourge*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 harzerkatze Aug 21, 2003 6:31:48	One problem I have with Ravenloft is seeing the bright side. I really like the darkness and fear and desolation of the campaign, but in my mind, there has to be a balance. When you play a character in Ravenloft, you at first get less: Less magic and help, less success on your missions, lesser chances of survival. It's part of the world that every victory has to be hard earned, and is probably tainted with a dark side. Don't get me wrong, I like that. But there has to be something in return for the heroes. They don't get the usual heroic swordfodder fights, they don't get the regular complete victories, they get less magic and items, they have to make tough decisions and worry about their souls - what do they get in return? It is alright to say: "The darker the shadows, the brighter the light." Ravenloft is in my eyes far more heroic than other D&D campaigns, because success has to be earned harder, and it is more difficult to be a hero. But is that really enough? The heroes can never really succeed. They can hunt down a monster, but there are always more. Even if they succeed in destroying a darklord (which is almost impossible), the domain isn't freed, it just becomes part of another monster's domain. Every victory is only a temporary respite, not a real victory. Since victories are the aims of heroes, even here Ravenloft offers the characters less than other campaigns. So what does Ravenloft have to offer to a group of heroes? If they get less chances to succeed in the small scale, no hope to succeed on the large scale, and on top of that get less reward and higher dangers, why should a group want to play in Ravenloft? What are, in your mind, the rewards of being a character in Ravenloft?
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 23, 2003 5:31:39	The knowledge of when to run, and the ability to run very quickly. This applies to Call of Cthulhu as well.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 0:53:32	The heros can win. Even big. Thats not inconsistant with failure to defeat darklords. The difference is between they save their town and their loved ones vs. they become supreamly powerful, crush all evil and set up a utopia. -Eric Gorman
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 15:38:44	I agree with HvF, seemingly small victories can count really big for certain characters. Being a ethical good character in Ravenloft is hard, therefor most character has done one or more things in their life that they aren't proud of, and even small victories over evil, can help redeem themselves or make them feel that they have repended their sins.
#5 hida_jiremi Sep 07, 2003 23:44:09	In a lot of cases, the only reward PCs will ever receive is the simple knowledge that they hold the moral high ground, that the right thing was done. In others, PCs can become powerful enough to create their own pocket of quiet and happiness... for a time. Ravenloft is an exceptionally heroic setting in my mind, but unlike "high" fantasy settings Ravenloft requires more short-term goals and consolation with minor victories. Even if the PCs die achieving their ultimate goal, they've still gotten their reward: they were heroes. One of my big points in Ravenloft games is that PCs can't often hope for happy endings for themselves - they're too big of targets for that - but they can give hope to others and spread the good fight. Generally, if that's not enough for PCs, then Ravenloft probably isn't the right campaign setting for them. But for the right crew, Ravenloft is likely the most satisfying campaign setting; with every fight so hard-won, the rare complete victory will taste all the sweeter. Hida Jiremi
#6 lord_of_the_ninth_02 Sep 08, 2003 23:30:01	Sorta reminds me of the So You Want to be a Wizard books by Diane Duane. The main characters are all fighting a being (basically a god), who invented death. They cannot defeat it and they know it. But they also know that they cannot give in, because as long as someone continues to fight it, someone else can go on living. You don't kil the were-wolves so that no one will ever be killed by a werewolf again, you do it because one will be killed by that were-wolf. "Death gets us all in the end, but you can sure make the bastard work for it".
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 18, 2003 10:06:05	That's why, as DM, you must build a PERSONAL attachment between the players and their lands. True, a marauding party of FR hack-n-slashers wouldn't get much gratification from slaying an evil wizard controlling a small village. But what if it was YOUR village, and YOUR people who suffered beneath the evil wizards yoke? In my opinion, the main theme of Ravenloft is Redemption. The characters are being punished for the sins of their past life (the previous world they adventured in as outlanders) and they must atone for said sins by overcoming a great evil WITHOUT submitting to its dark taint (hence the Powerz Checks and Terror Tracks). It's a balance to maintain a firm hold on your characters morality, as the land FOSTERS evil within a character. It WANTS you to become hopelessly non-redeemable. That's when you lose control of your characters soul forever (relagated to NPC status). Despite what other say, I LOVE Champions of Darkness and Heroes Of Light. Those two accessories break down the components of a "true" Ravenloft campaign. And I MUCH prefer the "Heroes Of Light" approach. I do NOT run an evil RL campaign. peace, MSD
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 29, 2003 15:24:51	Originally posted by The MadStepDad And I MUCH prefer the "Heroes Of Light" approach. I do NOT run an evil RL campaign. In spite of Alexus', um, delightfully evil wrong-doings?
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2003 7:08:18	Originally posted by Gemathustra In spite of Alexus', um, delightfully evil wrong-doings? He'll get his, believe dat. It's all part of the master plan. Mwha-ha-ha-ha! (now to get working on those posts...)
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2003 9:58:35	Originally posted by The MadStepDad (now to get working on those posts...) stands ready with his scourge