I think the list is large enough to make it possible to have only athasian weapons or those not affected by inferior material...
Any good suggestions?
Any good suggestions?
Sure.. Give me a few hours and I'll see what I can dig up.. :fight!:
Anyway, my comments on the spells you got there.
Allegiance of the Land
Not a very powerfull spell for a 6th lvl. The HP is about the same as a low lvl bless spell. The natural and deflect AC bounes is not that great. The lvl required to cast 6th lvl spells the Druid will be plenty powerfull enough that those bouneses will do nothing..they wont stack with anything..meaning Druid will have much better things by that time...well, the natural will be good but deflect..nah. Energy resistance is not high enough for a 6th lvl.
I think you got too many things going on in this one spell and its all small stuff in a high lvl spell. Maybe less things and more powerfull.
Maybe more HP boost, drop the deflect and add more natural armor..thats it. Natural armor can be seen by others cause the Druids skin will change shape to represent an animal with a tough hide. Like Druid will grow thick scales or thick fur.
Boneclaw's Cut
Nice spell. I like the concept.
But doing 50 damage over 10 rounds at 20th lvl seems under powered. I'm looking at the big picture here. The end result seems kind of wimpy. Other thing. Be nice if the spell had a visual effect like disimbodied claws appear and slash at the victim.
Braxatskin
Good spell. Only thing I don't understand and maybe you can explain to me is, why 10/metal only? Why not bone or obsidian and other materials?
Claws of the Tembo
I see nothing wrong with this one. Cool spell
Death of Corn*
.....love this spell :D
Echo of the Lirr
Nice spell but the potential for a disaster was not looked at. As we all know a natural 1 on a save is an auto fail. A 2nd lvl spell can stun a 20th lvl NPC/ Creature. It should be used by lvls like other low lvl spells that can take out a high lvl mob if they didn't go by lvls. Like color spray and most death gases.
Elemental Armor
I like this one. Well balanced far as I can see.
Elemental Weapon
Nice spell and effects but not balanced for the lvl it is. It should be at least a 5th lvl I think. Those are some strong properties that spell gives to a weapon. Or some of those abilities should be changed.
Heat Lash
A 1st lvl spell that can duplicate a trip and do damage at same time? Not too powerfull? I don't know..
Rangeblade
Nice spell.
Sting of the Gold Scorpion
Question. If a creature or person is reduced to 0 str, do they not die? If that is the case then this spell can potentialy kill some one, right?..if the victim had a 10 str..which can be the case with casters.
Zombie Berry
I like this one.
To bring my feedback to its end I will say this,
It seems people have not put into considiration that a natural 1 on a save fails. What seems like a cool spell and not mean to kill but only to hinder can actualy kill or hinder a high lvl from just an unlucky roll.
PS. please forgive spelling. I did not check my self and I usualy don't
Corpoces, I was referring to the spells in the DS3 Spells chapter, not the spells on my site (though some of them are in said chapter). Here's the url: http://www.athas.org/releases/ds3/
Ok will check them out..
Little confused. You got the Dark Sun Wizard Spell Compeduim which is in 2nd E style. And you got the core rule book for DS which spells are in 3rd E. Why even have a 2nd E version. Would it not be better to have such a companduim in 3rd E?
*bangs head on keyboard in frustration*
Did it occur to you that the 2nd edition spell compendium was compiled prior to the existance of 3rd edition? Did you ever stop to think that even if there is a new edition, someone might be playing using 2nd edition rules? Most importantly, how did you manage to find the DS2 Spell Compendium with the url I posted?
To eliminate any confusion still remaining: It is the Spells Chapter in the DS3 Core Rules that needs to be updated from 3E to 3.5E, and thus need reviewing.EDIT: Sorry if that sounded harsh. But hey, Athas is a rough world.
And yes, guess to me it was confusing. Since there are a few resources for spells I see on these boards. I'm new here I did not assume you meant the spells in the core rules only. Sorry for making your head hurt. I hope you didn't damage your keybooard.
Well anyways, you got my feedback for the spells on your site. I will check out the spells in the core rules a bit more and give my feedback further..that is even if you wanna hear them after I seem to have frustrated you to the breaking point:D
I went to the url you posted and there is a "release" link. That is where the compendium is. Wasn't hard to find
The URL pointed to the releases/3E subdirectory. The fact that you started roaming around outside its boundaries can hardly be considered my fault. :p
And yes, guess to me it was confusing. Since there are a few resources for spells I see on these boards. I'm new here I did not assume you meant the spells in the core rules only. Sorry for making your head hurt. I hope you didn't damage your keybooard.
The keyboard survived. It was a virtual bang. I realize being new to these boards could cause some confusion. But if you pay close attention, you'll be able to navigate around in no time.
Well anyways, you got my feedback for the spells on your site. I will check out the spells in the core rules a bit more and give my feedback further..that is even if you wanna hear them after I seem to have frustrated you to the breaking point
We're always looking for good feedback. Thanks for the feedback on the spells on my site.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Xlorep, that's not what this thread is about. It's about the SPELLS chapter.
If yopu notice, I tied it in, I was building up to make reference about a specific Cleric domain I'm not thrilled with. You said anything about the spells chapter, and domains are part of the spells chapter.
2) The Earthen Embrace domain gives Intuit Direction as class skill which is obsolate in 3.5
3) Blossom of the Sky domain is 100% perfect flavourwise but game balance wise seems too uber: Spot skill, all ranged martial weapons, reduced water consumption, color spray, prismatic spray, prismatic wall...
4) The basic cleric spell list still has to be re-thinked. (e.g. remove Earthquake and other spells).
5) Dead Heart domain is very necromantic, flavourwise questionable to the (para)elemental priests.
6) Fire from the Sky is a very ambivalent domain. Fire, electricity, water, everything... Very chaotic compared to the others, it should need a bit more steering into one of the direction.
7) The Fulfill spell form the Living Waters domain is missing from the spell descriptions.
8) Breathing and Surface Walk should be in domain spell, not in the general cleric spell list. Or it should be restricted for the element of the priest e.g. a Fire cleric can go fine in a smoky cavern with the Breathing spell, but I can hardly imagine she can do anything against suffocation in silt...
Wrath of the Fire Lord gains Flame Arrow at 2nd level. Much too good in my opinion. Should be 3rd level at least. The granted power is that the PC gains the benefit of a large shield while holding a torch in one hand. This is a bit unclear. What if he is holding a shield in his other hand? Can he cast spells affecting shields on the torch?
Earthen Embrace: I think Intuit Direction was discarded in 3.5
Fire from the Sky: Why perform as class skill? All crushers? What's that?
Forged Stone: "you can make a search check" should be changed to "you automatically make a search check"
Spells like Continual Flame and Fire Trap on domain lists is stylish, but is not too useful. You are lucky if you have need for them once every month.
Are you going to use powerchains for DS3? If so, many of the new powers could be grouped into power chains.
The acceleration power can be dropped and the 3.5 haste spell be used. Is roughly the same anyway.
All spells: Casting times should be changed from 1 action to 1 standard action. All spells that have a range of "Short" sould have that changed to "close".
Air Lens: Description on how often one can attack is a bit awry. Wouldn't it be easier if the lens would be handled like a ranged weapon that makes touch attacks? Saying that you can use the lens as often as your base attack bonus permits and that the lens make touch attacks doesn't imply that a) making more than one attack is a full round action b) attacks beyond the first get their attack bonus reduced c) attacking with the lens is an action at all. Furthermore, the description really makes you wonder how the lens works together with spells like haste. I would also change the duration to "1 round/level".
Level 5 seems to be a bit high for the spell. It is better than flaming sphere, but not so much. Level 4 should be OK.
Black Cairn: "Long" is not an area of effect, but a range. Should be changed according to the "locate object" spell.
Blazing Wreath: Formulations like "stupid enough to attack you" could perhaps be dropped? The casting time is "1 free action". Does that count against the limit of 1 quickened spell per round?
Bless Element: It is said, that blessed light functions like blessed air. How so? I have problems imagining this. Does this mean that the light around the caster becomes blessed?
Blindscorch: Casting time of 1 minute is too much. Why not 1 standard action? And what is that talk about an initial fortitude save? Is there more than one save?
Boneharden: The material component should be moved to a new paragraph and be set italic.
Breeze Lore: In its own description, the spell is called "keen scent".
Cerulean Hail: Level 5 is too much. 6d8 damage and a lesser fear effect? Fireball is much better. =) It is a cool spell, but it should either last longer, deal more damage (over a longer duration?) or have a (much) greater radius. How about more clouds at higher levels?
Charnel Stench: "Target: None, Range: Close"? How about this: "Range: 30 ft., Area: Cone shaped burst"? And why is the spell an abjuration?
Clue of Ash: Cool spell. But if it is an area spell, range and target should be something like this: "Range: Close, Target: Ashes toched, Area: Circle, centered on target touched, with a radius of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels". If something is destroyed, but not in ashes, can the PC burn the remains to make them a viable target?
Coat of Mists: how often does it absorb 5 fire damage? Once per attack? Once per turn? Only once and then the coat is gone?
Confessor's Flame: First time 1d12 , second time 2d12 and so on? So is the third time 4d12 or 3d12? This series could be continued in more than one way... Cool spell. =)
Conflagration: The duration of a spell never ends when the caster dies. No need mentioning this. What kind of damage is dealt? I assume it is fire damage, but it does not say so. The spell has [fire] as descripter. Does immunity to fire prevent the spell from working? Do you burn if you prevent like 10 points of fire damage per turn? What if the target was immersed in earth or water? Does he still cound as burning? Does he catch fire again when he leaves the water? If being immune to fire in effect cancels the spell, then it seems underpowered. The opponents of a Level 17 Fire Priest will not tremble in fear when he casts such a spell. Should perhaps be a Level 7 or 8 spell.
Just keep adding suggestions.
Create Oasis: "slaves trained in queries" is supposed to mean "slaves trained in quarries", I guess?
Curse of the Choking Sands: 3rd Level seems a bit low for a spell that will eventually kill an opponent.
Curtain Ward: Level 9 is a bit high. It is not that powerful a spell. And that fussing about the secular authority level is not really relevant, since you have to be at least caster level 17 to cast the spell. The scry skill is gone in 3.5. Why is the spell an enchantment? I could be wrong, but prismatic wall is not an enchantment.
Death Whip: Why 1d4 on a critical hit? As per normal rules, it would be 2d2 on a crit, which is just fine. If you have to concentrate, you cannot use a whip to attack. So the duration should be something like 1 round/level.
Dedication: Why is this a wizard spell? Seems much more fitting as a templar spell. You should be more precise as to what is an ongoing activity and what is not. Can the spell be used on tasks like warfare?
Drown on Dry Land: Saving Throw sould be "Fortitude negates".
Eye of the Storm: Does the spell work on magically created wind? What about an Elemental Storm?
Fire Track: Is the speed set at the time of casting, or can it be changed?
Firewater: Range should be completed. Why is the Spell Enchantment [Fire]? Shouldn't it be a simple Transmutation?
Flame Harvest: This is a very big Firetrap, that does not cause very much damage. Is a Reflex Save allowed? How about much more damage or a lower level for the spell? What happens, if the prepared area is changed in some way? Why does spell resistance help against the spell? The spell affects inflammable material and not the victims directly.
Flash Flood: Very cool spell. =) The descriptor [water] is unknown to me.
Gray Rift: Can the Rift be moved onto another creature? What happens then? What is the use of the spell for a templar or a mage? They do not tend to control that many undead...
Lesser Elemental Chariot: Very cool spell. But again: why is this an enchantment?
Heartseeker: Suggestion for a simpler rule as for what creatures are immune to the spell: All that are immune to critical hits. XP is not a material component. The duration should be handled like in the "True Strike" spell.
Image of the Sorcerer-King: The description sounds like it would cause the sorcerer king's agents to flee. =) Duration should mention that the spell ends as soon as all "charges" are spent.
Infestation: Again, it would be simpler to state that the spell does not affect creatures that are immune to critical hits. Some of the effects are simplay underpowered. And the spell necessary to remove the effects are many levels lower than the spell. Does a Dispel Magic work against the spell?
Klar's Heart: Compared to spells like Bear's heart (Defenders of the Faith), this spell seems underpowered. Level should be lowered. If the DM allow Bear's Heart (at least as a Druid spell), nobody will use Klar's Heart. +4 STR is not that much, especially with the new Bull's Strength spell being around. How about +8 STR?
Legendary Stonecraft: And again - why is this spell, that obviously meddles with time, an echantment? A very very cool spell btw.
Liquid Lightning: Enchantment? Why? Level 8 is very high for a spell with such limited use. It is not as good as a Chain Lightning, so I would suggest Lvl 4 or 5. How many bodies of water are there on Athas anyway?
Magma Tunnel: Can you tunnel through different materials with one use of the spell? Grammar of the last sentence is odd.
Might of the Sorcerer-King: Normally, a rage can be ended by the creature raging. Also with this spell? What happens if there are no enemies? Does the "victim" have to attack?
Molten: Round 2 - correct "are take".
Nurturing Seeds: The seeds can't be the material component, or they would be destroyed while casting the spell. The List of components does not mention a material component, but a focus.
Oil Spray: Saving Throw sould be "See Text".
Open the Gray Portal: The spell summons Zombies and is level 7? The Zombies "take the caster to the Gray"? How do they do this? A wizard able to cast this spell has no problems dealing with as many zombies as he has levels. Heck, he does not have a use for them. He could easily summon a monster that would kill of twice as many zombies. Spell has no use for wizards, and I doubt that a Level 9 cleric has a use for them. How about something more powerful than a zombie? Or make this a (not so good) level 3 spell. This spell is useless, even if used in conjuction with "Gray Rift".
I am new to playing DS. So ignore it when I complain about something that is different in Athas. Perhaps the Athasian Zombies are powerful creatures... ;)
Poisoned Gale: Does the spell also create a line of wind, like Gust of Wind? Can creatures be knocked down? Where does the Fortitude Save apply? To resolve, if the poison effect hits? Or to resolve if the wind hits? You get 3 saves then? A first save (don't know exactly where), a save for the initial attribute damage and one for the secondary attribute damage? Even the spell Poison deals 1d10 Constitution damage. So 1d6 seems a bit low for a Lvl7 or 8 spell. The Saves for a Poison spell are normally harder than the normal spell DC. 10 + 1/2 caster level + Wisdom Modifier. This would be Charisma in case of the Templars. This spell's Level is higher than the combined level of Gust of Wind and Poison. And besides the fact that you can choose the kind of Attribute damage that is dealt, it is not much better than Poison. Of, yes, and it is a ranged spell. How about adding Druids to the classes that can use the spell? Like Drd 5, Ill WInds 5, Tem 6.
Return to Earth: Is the Range of "Close" the limit of how far you can cast the earth? The Target is "1 dead or undead body". So can this spell not be used against more than one undead, even if there still remains duration after turning the first undead to dust? If the clods of earth are a Material Component, they vanish upon casting.
Sandflow: I wonder, wether this spell is more useful on Athas than Move Earth or not. If it is, then it should be made Lvl 6 and Move Earth be toned down to Level 5.
Sand Spray: Does it only work against creatures with eyes? Or do eyeless creatures take the damage and ignore the blinding effect?
Sand Traps: Why is the Range "Medium"? I doubt the usefulness of the spell, but players tend to get creative.
Is the effect of the spell that occurs when the trap is triggered magical? Can the Drum Sand be dispelled?Shining Sands: Define "normal Athasian Day". Sunny, right?
Sirocco: How big is the affected area? Is this supposed to be a Lvl 8 spell? Depending on the affected area, this might be a bit high. What does "the Sirocco sweeps along the ground" mean? Does the area of effect move?
Storm Legion: This is like a not-so-good Mass Teleport (Magic of Faerun), which is a Lvl 7 spell. The cool side effect is, that you can direct a storm, but you can not bring many companions with you. Obviously, you can only bring 3 companions of your own level with you. And if you would like to transport a "legion" of low level NPCs, it would still not be that much. Certainly not an army. Then there is a real danger for those being transported.
How far can you travel? Can you travel to places where a storm can't go? Pass over high mountains for example? You can't transport unwilling creatures, so the spell can not be used offensively. This is a lvl 8 or 9 spell, so I would suggest to make it possible to either transport much more HD, or make it possible to transport by weight (you and 50 or 100 lbs. per level). Oh, and this is (again) an enchantment - for no apparent reason.
Sunstroke: Target is "1 creature/attack". Does this mean that you have to attack creatures to affect them? How? The description gives no clue. Is it a ranged touch attack? Is it a ray? If it were a ray, one could score critical hits. Saving Throw should be "Fortitude partial". You should mention, that undead do not become fatigued.
Surface Tension: I am not shure I understand this spell. It is cast on creatures AND on water near them? How much water? Or does it in effect change all water in 20 ft. radius of the affected creature? Does this mean, that water that moves more than 20 ft. away from the creature becomes normal again? Does the effect move with the affected creature? Does this mean, that such a creature coming closer to water changes the water? Also water that is held, drunk or watched over by someone else?
Sweet Water: Is there a limit on how much sweet water one can drink? One gallon sounds like much already...
Unliving Identity: Could "mindless undead" be dropped, and a more specific term be used? "undead without an intelligence score" for example.
Vampiric Youthfulness: How is this spell useful, if there is a spell like Protection from Time?
Wakefulness: Can a wizards under the effect of the spell get enough rest to memorize spells? If not, this is not a "harmless" spell.
Water Light: Does the victim emmiting the lightning also get a Reflex Save?
Water Shock: I don't think that the different spells that create traps should be domain spells. There is simply not enough use for them. And why are some of the spells that trap water "Fire from the Sky" domain spells, and others "Despair of the Drowned"? Why can Fire AND Water Clerics trap water?
Water Trap: See Water Shock.
Waters of Life: This spell is much better than Raise Dead. It is stylish, but the subdual damage (named non-lethal Damage in 3.5, I think) is a joke. It won't kill the caster. It will not represent a threat to him. The time he falls unconcious is much more dangerous. It does have a lower cost than Raise Dead. And it is a Druid spell. This makes spells like Reincarnate and True Reincarnate (from Masters of the Wild) obsolete.
Waterways: There is no Teleport without Error in 3.5. But this spell does not function like a teleportation anyway. It is much more limited than a real teleportation, and can only be cast once per day. (Lvl 9 Domain spell...)
The example rescue mission could be done more effectively with much lower level spells. Scry, teleport in, teleport out for example. Compared to other Lvl 9 spells, this one is too weak.
Whirlpool of Doom: Should be a Transmutation instead of an Evocation. 5-30 ft. should be 1d6x5 feet.
Wild Lands: Not a very powerful spell. Stylish, but not very useful. Could just as well be a Lvl 3 spell. There would be much fewer animals coming anyway, so this would not be overpowered. Statements like "Druids often use this spell" seem strange for a Lvl 9 spell.
Wind Trap: Another Trap building spell as a domain spell. Not very useful. If you don't use poison in conjunction with this spell, this spell is much more limited in use than the spells it can emulate. So it should be of a lower level than the highest of the emulated spells. If you manage to get 10 doses of a really dangerous poison, this spell might be cool, but poison is definately not a surefire way to kill someone, and it is expensive. Shooting a poisoned arrow at a victim is cheaper. Should definately not be a Lvl 9 spell.
Wisdom of the Sorcerer-King: Very cool spell. Very powerful. Does it count against the limit of one quickened spell per turn?
1) There are much too many enchantments. Even spells where this really makes no sense. I guess this is some kind of copy-and-paste error.
2) Many domain spells are very specialized. Spells like Continual Flame and the various trapbuilding spells should not be domain spells. In contrast, there are spells like Flame Arrow as Lvl 2 domain spells, which is normally (for good reason) a Lvl 3 Wizards spell. The domain spells need some review.
3) Many of the new spells are underpowered. Most of the Lvl 9 spells are not really worth mentioning. It is really good, that the new spells are not simply much more powerful than the ones existing, but someone restrained himself too much here.
While many of the new spells deal with the special conditions on Athas, most are a bit too specialized. This does not make them useless, but limits how often one will use them. Since their use is restricted to certain places or conditions, they could easily be the same or lower level as spells with similar effect but less restrictions.
What about the psionics chapter? Shall I say some words about this, too? Or have I said enough already? :D
The Spells and Powers Bureau are monitoring this thread.
Big Brother is watching you!Wait. That came out wrong.
Not long ago, Wizards compiled all their online psionics stuff into one PDF. I like this one very much. It is on http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/PsionicsPDF.zip. Can/should this be used with DS? The concept of power chains and the feat "Resculpt Mind" are very helpful. Some of the DS powers could easily be forged into power chains.
Acceleration: Should be dropped and the new Haste be used. Perhaps with "Range: Personal, Target: You". There are no "Psychoportive" powers.
Alter Features: An equivalent to the new Alter Self spell could be used. Don't see much difference here.
Is this a Psychokinesis (Con) or a Psychometabolism (Str) power?
Antidote Simulation: Does poison ever do Hit Points Damage? The power is NOT harmless, if it is used on a venomous creature.
Beacon: Can this be used to illuminate an area or a room? If not, the Duration could be upped.
Bioelectric Touch: I am not shure how useful this spell is. 1d8 might be much for a 1st Lvl psion power, but you have to come close. How about this: The discharge also goes off if the psion is hit by a melee attack. Or at least a 1d4 discharge or something like that.
Bioelectric Aura: This is very similar to Fire Shield, but does not come close in power. At least not damage-wise. Most of the damage of a Fire Shield is dealt by the level of the caster. I would either suggest adding the level of the manifester to the damage, or lowering the Lvl of the power by 1.
Cast Missile: If memory serves me, the damage of a ranged attack depends on the weapon used, and not on the ammo. At least as long as the ammo is not enchanted. So, what weapons can be emulated? Also exotic weapons?
Crisis of Life: Wow. This is what I call a powerful psionic power. Perhaps too powerful, considered, that most Sor/Wiz death spells are of higher level. But then, you have to touch your opponent, so this might be OK.
Is this a Psychokinesis (Con) or a Psychometabolism (Str) power?
Deflection: Most "boost" powers from the Psionics Handbook are personal. Just thought I'd mention this. This is why I suggested a psionic Haste to be personal. But since more non-personal boost powers mean more versatile psions, I think I like this power.
Greater Static Discharge: Is this a Psychokinesis (Con) or a Psychometabolism (Str) power?
Another good psionic source is "If Thoughts Could Kill" by Malhovic Press. There's some other pretty good sources out there, that can help fill out psionics a bit more as well.
Lesser Antidote Simulation: Poisons don't do Hit Point Damage.
Lesser Legs if a Thri-Kreen: Without power chains, I doubt anyone will take this power.
Lesser Object Reading: See Lesser Legs if a Thri-Kreen.
Poison Simulation: If a power requires you to touch a target (make a touch attack), the power does not need to be a free action. Touching is part of the power. (At least this is the way it is for spells...)
Psionic Draw: Does this work like a quickened power? Does it then count against the limit of 1 quickened power per turn?
Psychic Tracking: Scry/Remote View skill is gone in 3.5, so some new mechanism has to be come up wih.
Static Discharge: Why are these powers Psychokinesis powers? Just for the game balance's sake? It seems to me, that soemthing is created, and this should be a Metacreativity.
Tattoo Animation: Why is this a Metacreativity power?
Wild Leap: Very cool power. See Psionic Draw (Free Action).
Wild Tumbling: And why should Wild Leap be like a quickened power, and not this one?
Power Scaling is a nice idea, but I prefer power chains, for numerous reasons. Main one being, that you can use power chains with non-damaging spells. Why is Power Scaling limited by the highest power one can manifest, and not the metapsionic cap?
Another thing I don't like about Power Scaling is that it make many of the Metapsionc Feats useless. Most of those that can be used to boost damaging powers are not half as good as Power Scaling. Who wants to maximize a Lvl 2 power that deals 3d6 damage (18 damage), if he can add +5d6 damage (8d6 with an average of 28). This is cheaper, and deals more damage.
So my plea is: Drop Power Scaling and introduce power chains. Several of the new powers would also benefit from this.
I do own "If thoughts could kill", which is quite nice, and I think it is also from Bruce Cordell, who designed the Psionics Handbook. But this is a commercial product, and not freely available. The stuff on the Wizards homepage could be declared standard for Dark Sun. Everybody who downloads the new DS rules is (obviously) also able to download the enhanced psionic rules.
And now for some criticism: Why are there so many more Wizard, Cleric and Druid spells than there are psionic powers? There are so many wild talents and people multiclassing as psions, why should there be so few powers that deal with the special conditions on Athas? And I don't mean that psions should also get powers that trap bodies of water. ;)
Spells like Slave Scent (don't like this one) or Surface Walk could just as well be psionic powers.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
the d20 3.5 rules are freely available (as the 3.5 SRD, which is a hell of a lot better than the 3.0 SRD), so that logic doesn't quite work.
I am not quite shure what you mean. Is this an answer/comment to something I have said? What logic does not work?
Are there elemental planes, or are elementals summoned from their favorite hiding place? What about Djinnies and the like?
I ask this because of spells like the various summon spells, elemental swarm and the like.
Some comments on the "normal" 3.5 spells, that are available to priests.
Obscuring Mist: Sounds a bit strange for a world where there exists no fog. Could be changed so that it creates smoke or dust.
Spiritual Weapon: What form does the weapon take for the elemental clerics?
Summon Monster: Which of the creatures on Page 287 of the Player's Handbook can be summoned? Is there somthing like a fiendish or celestial beast on Athas?
Create Food and Water: This spell is not removed from the spells available. So a 1st Level Cleric can not (normally) create water, but a cleric of Level 5 can. I guess a spell like Create Food and Element makes no sense.
Air Walk: 3.5 introduced some more descriptors, like [Air]. Would it make sense to bar clerics from using spells that are not of their own or adjacent to their own element? Air Walk could then only be used by Air, Rain and Sun Clerics.
Align Weapon: This spell seems to be more powerful on Athas, where there are no alignment restrictions for clerics. But then again: are there going to be many monsters with a fitting damage reduction? If not (I found none of the current athasian creatures), then this spell is quite useless, and could be dropped.
Astral Projection: Does this spell work on Athas?
Commune: Who is contacted by the spell, what does he know, and what are his interests?
Consecrate: The Material Component (Holy Water) may be a bit hard to come by.
Curse Water: Should be dropped, just like Bless Water. Or can you curse an element?
Desecrate: See Consecrate
Dismissal: I am very unshure about the cosmology of Athas. Can this spell also be used on undead?
Originally posted by trotzflocke
I am not quite shure what you mean. Is this an answer/comment to something I have said? What logic does not work?
This one:
I do own "If thoughts could kill", which is quite nice, and I think it is also from Bruce Cordell, who designed the Psionics Handbook. But this is a commercial product, and not freely available. The stuff on the Wizards homepage could be declared standard for Dark Sun. Everybody who downloads the new DS rules is (obviously) also able to download the enhanced psionic rules.
All it takes is for people to go there, I don't see where the problem you're having is, the stuff on the Wizards' site is from Wizards, and works with DS3, do you need an engraved invitation signed by the DS3 team that it's "approved" or "official" for use with Dark Sun?
I do agree with you, there isn't enough powers for Psions, and that should be a bit more filled out, especially for Athas. That's why I look for extra sources for powers in my DS games.
It would be nice with a precise statement as to what supplements are considered necessary an to what extent optional/free rules are thought to be incoporated. Eg. power scaling (if I remember correctly) is not part of the official psionics handbook.
Perhaps it is just me, but I find it very confusing what one has to use.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
All it takes is for people to go there, I don't see where the problem you're having is, the stuff on the Wizards' site is from Wizards, and works with DS3, do you need an engraved invitation signed by the DS3 team that it's "approved" or "official" for use with Dark Sun?
Ah, now I get what you meant. My problem is, that the DS3 rule of Power Scaling is an approach to give psions more power. To me it seems that this was done without having in mind, that there was a different approach in the "The Mind's Eye" section of the Wizard's Homepage. The effect is, that this makes many metapsionic feats obsolete. Same with the Power Chains for damage dealing powers. So in fact, Power Scaling makes some of the stuff presented in the online collection from Wizards useless.
The way it is now, this would be for the individual player and DM to find out. I prefer Power Chains to Power Scaling, because the only thing Power Scaling does is making psions better at doling out massive amounts of damage. Also gives them a more Sorcerer-like feeling. Power Chains give more flexibility to the way you aquire your powers, and prevents lower level powers from becoming useless.
In fact, what I would like best is Power Scaling being dropped, and the online stuff be declared "standard" for DS. Of course, every DM can handle it the way he likes, but it helps if someone points to the interesting stuff. It also gives a common base for discussions.
Just because someone found his way to athas.org does not mean that he guessed that "The Mind's Eye" houses the interesting psionics stuff, and that the creator of the Psionics Handbook published additional stuff on the Monte Cook Homepage.
I would really like some reference to the "Mind's Eye" to appear in the DS 3.5 PDF. So, yes, I'd like the engraved invitation.
I'd like the engraved invitation
I have to agree a little here. Although I understand the reasoning behind making the DS rules as 'self contained' as possible, I see no major problems with a side note in the books saying where additional game enhancing material may be found, or for that matter, I see no problems with additional DS releases to contain information from those very resources. I do understand the requirement of not using OGL material since the project is under certain guidlines (which rather bums me out as there is some great material out there), but I'm sure (hoping) that those guidlines do not mean that official Dungeons and Dragons material is entirely excluded.
Blossom of the Sky: Very powerful indeed. A highly useful skill, a whole, big and important class of weapons and a good granted power.
And then the spells: A very good 1st Level spell not normally open to clerics, a 2nd level spell that normally is a Lvl 3 spell, a 3rd Lvl spell that is normally Lvl 4, then again an arcane spell, at 6th Lvl a spell that is normally a Lvl 7 Druid spell, at Lvl 7, 8 and 9 some more arcane spells of the same level. Wow. This has to be the single most useful Domain. Tone it down!
Broken Sands: Can't compare tho the Blossom. A mediocre skill, two not-so-good weapons, a nice granted power and shield proficiency, which is quite useful. The first two spells are quite specialized. Lvl 4 is one of the many traps I earlier showed my dislike for. Lvl 6 is a Cleric spell of the same level. Not much to say here. Sounds good, except the trap spell. The first two spells will most likely not be used very often, too.
Errors: The short description of Curse of the Black Sands is wrong. Glass Storm is listed as Lvl 7, the spell descriptions tells us it is Lvl 6. Sandflow is misspelled.
Clarity of the Light: What does "Knowledge (any)" mean? All knowledge skills, or any one? Good other gains. The granted power sounds more like a spell, and should probably turned into some Domain spell.
All spells are divinations of the same level, only few of them arcane spells. In Blossom of the Sky nearly all divine spells are of one level lower. So there is either something wrong with this domain or the Blossom. Probably the Blossom. ;)
Cold Malice: Weak gains. Not-so-good skill, no armor, nonsense weapons and a granted power that is only useful against some very special spells. Too weak.
The spells are powerful though. Most of them are arcane. Enervation is even lower level than for wizards. Too good. Only the Cerulean Hail isn't very powerful. I would strongly suggest to find some better balance between the spells (too powerful) and the other gains (too weak).
Errors: Cerulean Hail is listed as Lvl 6, while its description declares it Lvl 5.
Dance of Decay: The non-spell gains are OK and cool. Acid resistance is IMO more useful on Athas than cold resistance. But WHY disguise as a skill?
Rusting Grasp is normally a Lvl 4 Druid spell. It should stay Lvl 4. NOT Lvl 2. The other spells are cool. Disintegrate is a instant-kill spell that comes one level too early. Upping it to Lvl 7 is useless, because there is Destruction. What about some other spell instead of Disintegrate?
Dead Heart: The non-spell gains are strange. No armor, and the weapon is nonsense, but the other gains might balance this out.
Death Knell is too powerful as Lvl 1 spell. At level 1, this might nearly double the caster's hit points, and gives him other bonuses. The other spells seem OK, but there are some errors in the spell levels. Vampiric Youthfulness might even make sense for a cleric, while it is nonsense for a wizard.
Errors: Open the Gray Portal is Lvl 6 while its descriptions says it is Lvl 5. Gray Rift is Lvl 8 while its descriptions says it is Lvl 7.
Desert Mirage: Non-spell gains seem to be fine. The lower-level spells are OK, but Prismatic Wall should be Lvl 8, and Horrid Wilting and Implosion seem to be a bit off for a Domain that sounds like it has something to do with illusions. How about spells like Scintillating Pattern, Mass Invisibility or Project Image instead?
Despair of the Drowned: Can the cleric shoose wether he rebukes or commands elementals? Water trap is one of the many trap spells I dislike.
Errors: Control Water does not part bodies of water. Or OK, it does, but the 3.5 shortdescription does not say so.
Originally posted by trotzflocke
In fact, what I would like best is Power Scaling being dropped, and the online stuff be declared "standard" for DS. Of course, every DM can handle it the way he likes, but it helps if someone points to the interesting stuff. It also gives a common base for discussions.
Just because someone found his way to athas.org does not mean that he guessed that "The Mind's Eye" houses the interesting psionics stuff, and that the creator of the Psionics Handbook published additional stuff on the Monte Cook Homepage.
I would really like some reference to the "Mind's Eye" to appear in the DS 3.5 PDF. So, yes, I'd like the engraved invitation.
Ahhm I see your point, I persoanlly took the idea of "pwoer scaling" from the DS3 material as being something left over from a previous incarnation of the Psionics chapter, and hadn't necessarily been tackled (or noticed in and of itself), hence I haven't used it, and even forgot all about it.
I follow a simple policy when it comes to "outside" material - if it comes from Wizard's, it's probably O.K. I've just about gotten rid of all my Sword & Sorcery sourcebooks that I had picked up a long time ago - the things in there are really unbalancing in a game (like giving a sorcerer/wizard the ability to create shadows as a 3rd level spell, when it is notmally not available (in 3.5E) until an 8th level spell called Create Greater Undead. The latter of which requiring another spell to control the shadow afterwards, while the former is all-inclusive. And it's a strength-draining attack to boot.) A few of my players understand why I've limited those books, others can't seem to grasp how it's unbalancing.
Despair of the Drowned: Whirlpool of Doom is only listed as an Earthen Embrace domain spell.
Earthen Embrace: There is no Intuit Direction skill in 3.5. So the granted power needs to be changed. The weapon is nonsense, the armor is great. So after seeing to the missing skill, this will be fine.
The name of the Endurance spell has changed. Leomund's Secure Shelter is normally a Lvl 4 arcane spell. It should stay Lvl 4. Or use Leomund's Tiny Hut. Same goes for Passwall. Should stay Lvl 5. The rest seems to be OK.
Fire Eyes: Non-spell gains are OK. Continual Flame does not make too much sense on a domain list. Watch fire is IMO not as good as Scry. And it is Lvl 7. This should be changed.
Fire from the Sky: What does "all Crushers" mean? Why Perform as a skill? For a raindance? Why heavy armor then? Don't get this. The theme of the domain seems to be rain and lightning. Or perhaps not. Why is there "fire" in the name, and why is this not a "rain" domain?
If the domain deals with water and lightning, why is the 1st Lvl spell Burning Hands? Why not Shocking Grasp? The domain has two spells that trap water. Don't like these spells. At least not as domain spells. Other domains get arcane spells on the same Lvl as wizards. Not on this domain. Why?
Forged Stone: The granted power should be described more carefully. Does this apply to any trap, or only to those made of stone? Or those integrated into stone?
Fury of Storms: The non-spell gains seem a bit weak. Crossbows are cool, but other domains gain all ranged weapons. And how often will you have to turn conjured storms?
Eye of the Storm is listed as 1st Lvl, but its description claims it is Lvl 2.
Ill Winds: Non-spell gains seem weak. The weapon is very special. No armor, and a nice skill. The granted power is not so good that it balances the missing weapon and armor.
The list of spells contains many of those that I complained about in earlier postings.
Errors: The Fulfill spell is missing. Pact of Water is listed as Lvl 4 while its description says it is Lvl 5.
Meek of the Land: Non-spell gains are much too meek. Er, weak. A not-so-useful skill, no armor, but lasso and nets. Great. The granted power really doesn't make up for this.
Mountain's Fury: Non-spell gains are good. Some spells are too powerful / come too early. Especially Flesh to Stone, which is something like an instant-kill.
Errors: There is no Repel Metal or Wood spell.
Refreshing Storms: Non-spell gains are strange. Shields and bows are great, they just dont make too much sense together. The granted power is weak.
The spells are - in contrast to most other domains - of higher level than normal. This makes them weak, and also makes absolutely no sense for spells such as Windwalk, which is normally a Lvl 6 cleric spell. More power to the Refreshing Storms!
Rolling Thunder: Why the perform skill? Shatter is normally a Lvl 2 cleric spell. Why bother using the one from the domain spells, which is Lvl 3. But then there is Power Word Stun on Lvl 6. Much too powerful! This is one of the strongest offensive spells there is. Geas is already a Lvl 6 cleric spell. Makes no sense as Lvl 7 domain spell. How about the following order: 6 Geas, 7 Power Word Blind, 8 Power Word Stun, 9 Power Word Kill. Restores the order of the Power Words and makes Geas more useful. Don't know what to do with Shatter.
Smoldering Spirit: Very cool gains. Not too powerful. Fire Storm comes one Lvl too early IMO.
Soul Slayer: Death Whip description says nothing about Dexterity damage. Soul Bind is normally a Lvl 9 spell, and should not be available for Lvl 7.
Wrath of the Fire Lord: A torch works like a large shield? The is no furhter description of this. Can you use shield-related feats? Can you shield-bash? Can you enchant the torch with spells that normally affect only shields? Can you create something like a Arrow-Deflecting Torch +4? Can you use it together with a real shield?
Flame Arrow should not be Lvl 2. This is a mighty good arcane spell of Lvl 3. Lvl 3 is what it should be. Fire Trap is a trap. Don't like traps for domain spells. Lvl 3 domain spells for certain fire clerics are weird. Am I going to create an everburning torch or to trap something today? Hmmm....
Flame Harvest is another trap, and a weak one. The description of Conflagration mentions nothing about animating the dead victim. Maybe that is why it seemed so weak.
1) While I found moste of the new spells to be quite weak or moderate in power, the cleric domains are VERY strong. Some more so than others, but generally, you gain cleric spells 1 spell level earlier, and arcane spells at the same level. This is, at least regarding the spells, more powerful than the cleric domains in the Player's Handbook. And I like it, as long as it does not get out of hand, like in the Blossom domain, or Rolling Thunder.
2) I really like the fact that clerics gain skills and weapon proficiencies through their domain. This makes them more individual than the Player's Handbook clerics. In my group, we have two clerics, and you can see and feel the difference between them. Great.
3) The 3.5 Player's Handbook has more descriptors for spells, like [Air]. Just an idea, but it would be nice to further restrict the spells available to the priest by the descriptors. So that, for example, [Air] spells can only be cast by Air, Rain and Sun clerics. This would introduce more differences between clerics, and would be similar to the way spells of opposing alignment are handled in the Player's Handbook.
Of course it would not work in the way I described, because the paraelemental priest would be much better off.
Originally posted by trotzflocke
2) I really like the fact that clerics gain skills and weapon proficiencies through their domain. This makes them more individual than the Player's Handbook clerics. In my group, we have two clerics, and you can see and fell the difference between them. Great.
I would like if you could give some suggestions regarding adding some extra athasian weapons to cleric domains (if you noticed there are too many metal-only effective weapons).
See the "other" spell doc thread.
Example could be a Sun Cleric has to choose [Air] or [Fire], but can't get from both.
I rather like that idea. Definately going to toss that in.
What if clerics could not normally cast spells with a descriptor, and each domain gave access to one or two (maybe three) descriptors? This would limit the number of spells that they could choose from, but would make clerics much more different from each other.
Example:
Blossom of the Sky - [Air, Light]
Clarity of the Light - [Light, Language-dependent]
Despair of the Drowned - [Evil, Fear, Water]
Meek of the Land - [Air, earth, mind-affecting]
Or something like that. This might also be used to further strengthen a domain, or make it weaker. I think, that right now Blossom of the Sky is much more powerful than Meek of the Land. Giving the Meek access to more and more interesting descriptors might set this right.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I could see this as both a boon and a bane as well. I do think it would be far easier to simply create and maintain more balanced domains than to try and balance things out between the various descriptors.
Certainly. The balancing between the domains should not be done by restricting the spells they have access to. Possible, but far too complicated. Balancing the domains seems to be complicated enough already.
I just don't think that it can easily be implemented in 3e (or 3.5, or whatever number we'll be at next year).
It could very easily implemented. In 3.5 at least. Would have to check back for 3.0. Give a list of descriptors for each domain an you're done. Easy. If this is balanced is another question. I think this would not be too hard to do, because there are not really 19 descriptors to consider.
What would have to be done is look what cleric spells use descriptors. I think the [Force] descriptor is never used by a cleric spell. The [Earth] descriptor is (I think) only used by earth domain spells and druid spells. No use in giving a domain access to this descriptor. It either has no access to such spells, or already has them on its domain list.
Oh, and while I like 3.5, let's hope there is not another version bump anytime soon.
I don't think this would be such a big problem with clerics, though. They don't have that many spells that attack by using energy anyway. Right now, I am too lazy to start counting through the cleric spells to prove this theory. Later perhaps.
As I said, I am no longer shure this whole descriptor thing is a good idea. At the very least it would mean much work for the people involved. The resulting clerics would be more restricted than they are now. I would like them better, but I am not shure every player (and DM) would agree.
I think the Athasian clerics are already much cooler than the standard D&D clerics. No need to go all out.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm managing the spells doc now and I wanted to say that all the feedback was quite helpful.
-Feebles
Originally posted by trotzflocke
Some more thoughts on descriptors. There are 19 that occur in the Player's Handbook. Acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic and water.
What if clerics could not normally cast spells with a descriptor, and each domain gave access to one or two (maybe three) descriptors? This would limit the number of spells that they could choose from, but would make clerics much more different from each other.
I believe that this would restrict clerics too much. I like the idea behind the DS domains much better than the regular ones, and clerics tend to be more specialized on Athas, but this would be too much. There are already spells that have been changed for the different elements, like Bless Water. I am not sure if there is need for more. One could easily just change the spells themselves. For example: Flame Strike could deal different damage for each element, appropriate to that element, of course. This should be possible without too much hassle.
Add more weapon proficiencies to the domains, especially athasian ones. The cleric I play has flails as the only useful martial weapons, and I do not feel that this is very DS-like. Maybe add some of the good weapons even...
Check the domains for useless spells, like Continual Flame, Who would want to be able to cast that once per day? Especially if you have Fire Trap on the same level with your second domain. You cannot use domain slots for spontaneous casting, so these slots are effectively useless (Fire Trap is not a good spell, by the way, why is it on that list?).