Two random questions about mystics...wondering what you think....
1) While mystic magic and clerical magic are--by the book at least--incompatible, does that make the personal spirituality or philosophy of a mystic incompatible with religious spirituality in general? In other words, could a mystic be a mystic and also be a lay worshiper of one of the gods? Does becoming a mystic necessitate rejecting the gods? Would a priesthood consider developing specialized orders of mystics?
(Another post noted a "Power of Faith vs. Power of the Heart" side bar on page 101 of the DLCS. I don't have it yet, but it may be useful. Sorry if it answers the question completely!)
2) Wizards and sorcerers unleash their spells with the language of magic, though they come to learn it in different ways. Clerics whisper prayers to their heavenly patrons. What is the (or your) game-world explanation for the verbal component of mystic spells??
Originally posted by marius4
1) While mystic magic and clerical magic are--by the book at least--incompatible, does that make the personal spirituality or philosophy of a mystic incompatible with religious spirituality in general? In other words, could a mystic be a mystic and also be a lay worshiper of one of the gods? Does becoming a mystic necessitate rejecting the gods? Would a priesthood consider developing specialized orders of mystics?
(Another post noted a "Power of Faith vs. Power of the Heart" side bar on page 101 of the DLCS. I don't have it yet, but it may be useful. Sorry if it answers the question completely!)
I don't think that mystic spirituality is totally incompatable with religious spirituality. For example, many of the mystics of the Citadel of Light revere Mishakal. By the way, the Citadel Mystic prestige class in Age of Mortals details a specialized order of Mystics.
The key difference between clerics and mystics is that clerics take a leap of faith, while mystics have an inner faith. The mystic draws from his inner strengths and beliefs to power his spells. However, there is nothing saying that the mystic can't revere a god as well.
2) Wizards and sorcerers unleash their spells with the language of magic, though they come to learn it in different ways. Clerics whisper prayers to their heavenly patrons. What is the (or your) game-world explanation for the verbal component of mystic spells??
Wow! I hadn't thought of this before.
The Dragons of a New Age trilogy mentions how Goldmoon would utter prayers, even though the gods were gone. Characters from more primitive cultures might see mysticism as some sort of shamanism, and may chant, or something along those lines.
Hope that helps.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The key difference between clerics and mystics is that clerics take a leap of faith, while mystics have an inner faith. The mystic draws from his inner strengths and beliefs to power his spells. However, there is nothing saying that the mystic can't revere a god as well.
This is absolutely correct. Consider that not all people who worship gods are clerics! Fighters, rogues, nobles, commoners, and monsters are all capable of revering the gods of Krynn, although for many the Age of Mortals has shaken their faith and driven them to rely on their own strength of purpose rather than the power of the gods.
This means mystics and sorcerers are capable of being quite religious. The mystic's power relies on some kind of ideal, faith, or concept in which to believe in, so as to focus their will. This could be the same credo that a cleric adheres to - or it could be a deep, abiding belief in home cooking and biscuits with gravy. (The loosely aligned Brotherhood of the Cracker Barrel doesn't get much press.)
Cheers,
Cam
The mystic's power relies on some kind of ideal, faith, or concept in which to believe in, so as to focus their will. This could be the same credo that a cleric adheres to - or it could be a deep, abiding belief in home cooking and biscuits with gravy.
In response to the quote above, though, why would a mystic who matched a deity's alignment, favored the deity's portfolio, and/or even chose a domain that the deity could grant, not just become a cleric instead? Mechanically the player might prefer spontaneous casting, but in the game-world how are mystics NOT reduced to commitment-fearing half-clerics??
Not that I think that harshly of them, of course...I actually really like the class. I just think I'm confused by the distinction between "leap of faith" and "inner faith." Guess I'll have to do some more reading up on it.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
This could be the same credo that a cleric adheres to - or it could be a deep, abiding belief in home cooking and biscuits with gravy. (The loosely aligned Brotherhood of the Cracker Barrel doesn't get much press.)[/i]
Mmmm....gravy!
Originally posted by marius4
In response to the quote above, though, why would a mystic who matched a deity's alignment, favored the deity's portfolio, and/or even chose a domain that the deity could grant, not just become a cleric instead? Mechanically the player might prefer spontaneous casting, but in the game-world how are mystics NOT reduced to commitment-fearing half-clerics??
Mystics have a fear of commitment?
There could be a number of reasons. Firstly is era of play. Mystics don't exist in the Age of Might and Age of Despair. It is in the Age of Mortals where they come into their own.
Secondly, think of society. Mystics from primitive cultures may look at mysticism as some sort of shamanic tradition. Other cultures may have no reverence towards the gods.
Some mystics may have a strong sense of self, and due to that, are really unable to place their faith in a god.
Willingness is another reason. Why place faith in the gods, who are fickle and have left the world twice before, leaving suffering in their wake? This is from a certain point of view, mind you.
I'm sure there are other reasons as well, but hopefully that will give an idea.
Not that I think that harshly of them, of course...I actually really like the class. I just think I'm confused by the distinction between "leap of faith" and "inner faith." Guess I'll have to do some more reading up on it.
I had some trouble with this myself at first. When I think of faith, I think in terms of placing faith in something outside and unseen. Usually, in Dragonlance terms, this is equivalent to placing faith in one of the deities.
"Inner faith" is harder to explain. It deals with things like inner convictions and beliefs. It's more of a "new age" feel. In some ways, think of how martial artists in Oriental Adventures focus on their inner ki.
Domains can help this out too. A mystic with the animal or plant domains may have a deep love of nature. This doesn't require Chislev, Habbakuk, or Zeboim. A dwarf who has a love of stonework may find mystical power when he works with the earth (earth domain). A knight/mystic who has the law domain may have a strong sense of justice.
Personally, I've fallen in love with the mystic. While they may appear at first like a "half-cleric" or "sorcerer-cleric", there's lots of neat role-playing potential there. With them having only one domain, you can use the domain to help share the character.
I have a religious minded mystic who believes that Majere taught him how to tap into his inner force, and thus believes in the God, but draws from himself. Its a very hindu mindset.
originally posted by Dragonhelm:
Personally, I've fallen in love with the mystic. While they may appear at first like a "half-cleric" or "sorcerer-cleric", there's lots of neat role-playing potential there.
To be sure, I think I'm rather smitten with the mystic class as well; it's just that I used to be a very devout cleric fan so I'm trying hard to resist the charms! =) I was first tempted away by the shugenja class, albeit in another setting, but I found their dedication to one element at the exclusion of its opposite frustrating since I wanted access to both Earth and Air w/o having to focus on wimpy Water spells. (I ended up with an excellent Earth shugenja of the Dragon clan with monk levels, two-weapon fighting, and dreams of flying.)
The mystic, on the other hand, just seems to free everything up and really allow a character to match what you (well, I) want. My half-elf (Kagonesti & Solamnic) brd2/ex-clr8 of Branchala has now become more in tune with Gilean or Mishakal, but while he appreciates the Balance and strives to help others (and also likes the Liberation domain and is a huge fan of Community's greater status spell), the possible domain combinations there seem more like job skills than expressions of self.
As a bard/mystic he can be a DL character (as opp to Shu), take the Travel domain (sans Shinare's merchant aspects) with its built in freedom of movement (harkening back to Liberation), he can fly and shape stone at 6th level (think Air & Earth), learn healing spells (Mishakal), and assist all the priesthoods he wants without obligating himself to one. IMHO, that rocks! (Just don't tell Crysania or Goldmoon I said so or they'll hide my commitment-fearing arse...!) ;p
Originally posted by Talinthas:
I have a religious minded mystic who believes that Majere taught him how to tap into his inner force, and thus believes in the God, but draws from himself. Its a very hindu mindset.
That's a cool idea. I think my character's tune would probably be something like: "You guys take care of the big stuff (like making sure the sun rises), & I'll deal with everything else."
Cam or Talinthas (or anyone else)...
What are your thoughts on mystic spell verbal components?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm:
When I think of faith, I think in terms of placing faith in something outside and unseen. Usually, in Dragonlance terms, this is equivalent to placing faith in one of the deities. ..."Inner faith" is harder to explain. It deals with things like inner convictions and beliefs.
The "outside & unseen" part was helpful. I guess the leap in leap of faith is trusting or relying on that, as opposed to inner convictions which are somewhat more tangible and present in your "inner monologue" each day.
I just think I'm confused by the distinction between "leap of faith" and "inner faith."
This is how I see it. Bear in mind that other than whats in the DLCS I have no knowledge of Mystics.
Clerical Faith:
Clerics have a love or fear of their deity. In return for service the deity grants them powers to be used in that deity's causes.
Most clerics will actually not be spellcasters however.
Mystical Faith:
I see Mystics as believing more in the "will of the universe" style of faith. The universe puts you in the places you need to be fo whatever purpose. The power essentially is tapped from the divine by those who can have faith in the nature of the universe to provide.
For example, Goldmoon may be saying a prayer " Although you are far away, great healer Mishakal, we perform this healing on a noble soul." She may be doing this every time she heals someone mystically. it doesn't mean Mishakal heard the prayers. it could just be Goldmoon's way of focusing her spirit.
Originally posted by marius4
2) Wizards and sorcerers unleash their spells with the language of magic,
Im not so sure about that. From what I gather sorcerers DONT use the language of magic. They feel the spell and will the effect to happen. I would say that verbal components for sorcerers could be as simple as grunting in concentration. (you know, the constipation sound)
Anohter, slightly off topic coment. Mystics with the fire domain. They tap the power of their heart and find an inner fire to unleash!?!? Thats great and all, but doesnt it rather deviate from established facts? With all the domains available what diference is there realy between a sorcerer pyromancer and a mystic with the fire domain? Just an observation
EDIT: Btw I love the idea of a mystic with the fire domain, Im just slightly irked that it deviates from cannon.
Oh yeah, and there is nothing that prevents one from using focused and raw devine/arcane magic, just from taking sorcerer/wizard or mystic/cleric levels. You could easily have a Kender Cleric/Nightstalker, who uses both, or a Wizard/Bard who does the same. Just more food for thought.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
This is how I see it. Bear in mind that other than whats in the DLCS I have no knowledge of Mystics.
Clerical Faith:
Clerics have a love or fear of their deity. In return for service the deity grants them powers to be used in that deity's causes.
Most clerics will actually not be spellcasters however.
Mystical Faith:
I see Mystics as believing more in the "will of the universe" style of faith. The universe puts you in the places you need to be fo whatever purpose. The power essentially is tapped from the divine by those who can have faith in the nature of the universe to provide.
Okay....I want to point out that ALL clerics are spellcasters, however not all clergy are. Clerics fulfill that particular niche in the religion. You might have a cleric of Mishakal who runs the temple, with a few priests and acolytes and such.
All in all......not a major point, nor the way you have to look at it....it just separates the cleric from other members of the religous sect.
Originally posted by Halabis
Anohter, slightly off topic coment. Mystics with the fire domain. They tap the power of their heart and find an inner fire to unleash!?!? Thats great and all, but doesnt it rather deviate from established facts? With all the domains available what diference is there realy between a sorcerer pyromancer and a mystic with the fire domain? Just an observation
EDIT: Btw I love the idea of a mystic with the fire domain, Im just slightly irked that it deviates from cannon.
That depends on how you view canon. If you go by the SAGA game products, you're right - there are changes. If you go by the novels, many times the "new magic" didn't follow the rules in the game products.
I'm not sure there is a die-hard rule of canon here, unless you're going solely by the SAGA game products.
Oh yeah, and there is nothing that prevents one from using focused and raw devine/arcane magic, just from taking sorcerer/wizard or mystic/cleric levels. You could easily have a Kender Cleric/Nightstalker, who uses both, or a Wizard/Bard who does the same. Just more food for thought.
This isn't class-based, it's magic-based. Your wizard/bard, for example, would be using both High Sorcery and Primal Sorcery. How would the conclave look upon someone who is not devoted fully to magic? Your kender cleric/nightstalker would take a leap of faith to seek the power of the gods, but look within himself for inner power in regards to the nightstalker class (which uses mysticism).
While nightstalkers, bards, etc. may have a limited use of magic, they are steil magic-users, and are bound by the same rules that affect mystics, clerics, sorcerers, and wizards.
Basically think the kid from the movie sixth sense.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
What is this Nightstalker? A PrC I assume, but where can I find it?
In SAGA, it was a kender that liked talking with dead people. Not sure, but I believe it's in AoM.
Hehe. Should have reloaded the page ...
Originally posted by marius4
In response to the quote above, though, why would a mystic who matched a deity's alignment, favored the deity's portfolio, and/or even chose a domain that the deity could grant, not just become a cleric instead? Mechanically the player might prefer spontaneous casting, but in the game-world how are mystics NOT reduced to commitment-fearing half-clerics??
Something to keep in mind here is that a mystic may represent somebody who agrees with the ideology, way of life, and concepts of a god's portfolio but not with the god themselves. Some of the Dragonlance deities cover areas that may be appealing to some characters but the deity's alignment or role or even gender might be unfavorable.
You could play a CG mystic with the Storm domain who feels the effects of climate and weather resonate with his own emotions and moods but is not in any sense wicked, malicious or violent, like many of Zeboim's clerics are. Likewise, you could play a LE mystic of Meditation who firmly believes in a rigid, disciplined approach to life yet thinks such a path should lead directly to the domination of others and elimination of certain kinds of people, unlike clerics of Majere. Such characters may find a lot in common with the portfolio or even tenets of these deities but completely disagree on how they should be used in day-to-day life or practice.
Cheers,
Cam
Sure, if one isn't totally in tune with a specific deity, then the mystic class would be superb!
M's Claw
Is it kender only?
Originally posted by Morgion's Claw
While I totally agree on the diversity and usefulness of a separate mystic class, I can't see a individual who worships a certain deity fervently who will stick to his mystic class and not become a cleric of that faith...
Define Worship.... That's the subtle key here
For example, I may believe in Mishakal. I may see Mishakal's miracles every day of my life. Heck, If i see a leaf suddenly drift off a branch and land on my window sill, i can see Mishakal at work. That doesn't mean I will let go leave it in Mishakal's hands when there's a dying man that needs healing.
I can't see a mystic who devoutly worships a certain deity stick to his mystic class. I can't see a cleric who faithlessly worships a certain deity stick to his cleric class.
Granak Red-Silver
Sivak
Originally posted by SweetMeats
I love the idea of the Nightstalker PrC.
Is it kender only?
Yup! The kender nightstalker was originally found in Heroes of Hope, IIRC, a SAGA product on mysticism.
I think you will find that this PrC works very nicely in the War of Souls. The kender nightstalker may discover the secret of the River of Souls and magic being stolen from one of his ghost companions. What happens when the kender tries to warn the forces of good, and nobody will believe him since they think it's a fanciful kender tale?
What I really like about this prestige class is that the kender isn't just a "Tas clone".
Trampas
As I see it, the mystics were between others many former priests of the deities. While it was - without their beloved gods around - okay to work miracles with the new inner strenth of mysticism following the codices and ways of the gods, I'd think that those guys would eagerly embrace the "true" power of their gods if back on Krynn. As I can remember, the nearness of ones god is something altogether soothing and encouraging, a very pleasant sensation (if the god isn't mad on you).
While all other mystics, being non-religious, not strictly in tune with a specific deity or hostile against the treacherous gods, a true worshipper (ok, I used it in the all too strict meaning of priest (clergy) /devout follower (untrained cleric, "natural" cleric) wouldn't he deem this power not relying on the gods somehow blasphemic now that the gods are back?
While a multiclass wizard/cleric (let's say former WR, now Paladine priest) wouldn't pose that big of a problem (after all, magic used for good is in tune with the WR and Solinari concept, using magic to promote the word of Paladine would be ok I think), I can't see a faithful lover of a god use powers that are gained by turning AWAY from the gods in a selsufficient way!
I admit that on could underline the parallel to someone who won't pray for something he can accomplish without bothering the god, but I think, there would still be a lot of conflict potential between the Straight and True Clerics and those who don't rely fully on the godly gifts... Especially dark clerics won't be that appreciating as well as their gods...
uff!
M's Claw
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
This isn't class-based, it's magic-based. Your wizard/bard, for example, would be using both High Sorcery and Primal Sorcery. How would the conclave look upon someone who is not devoted fully to magic?
Not quite true. The Irda for example have a natural ability to use primal sorcery regardless of the age due to their inate powers, but at the same time thier favored class is wizard. So its obviously not the magic thats incompatable.
As to how the conclave would look, honestly I dont think they would care. There have been plenty of examples of wizards who arnt fully devoted to magic. Take for example that old wizard in Chronicles that lived in sunken Istar. I believe he mentioned how he rarely has time for magical business, and is clearly more dedicated to his lifestyle underwater than to magic. As long as you use magic responsably, I dont think the conclave would be that concerned.
Originally posted by Halabis
Not quite true. The Irda for example have a natural ability to use primal sorcery regardless of the age due to their inate powers, but at the same time thier favored class is wizard. So its obviously not the magic thats incompatable.
I think I may have given off a wrong impression. I wasn't referring to the magic being incompatable so much as I was the Wizards of High Sorcery not looking favorably upon someone who is divided in his attention in regards to magical study.
As to how the conclave would look, honestly I dont think they would care. There have been plenty of examples of wizards who arnt fully devoted to magic. Take for example that old wizard in Chronicles that lived in sunken Istar. I believe he mentioned how he rarely has time for magical business, and is clearly more dedicated to his lifestyle underwater than to magic. As long as you use magic responsably, I dont think the conclave would be that concerned.
His magic isn't divided between two sources though. He may not be the best wizard, but his magical study is focused on High Sorcery.
*shrugs*
Do whatever works in your games. It's the best rule of thumb to ever follow.