Draconians as PCs - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Draconians as PCs

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
akumadaimyo
Aug 23, 2003 16:18:46 Cany anyone help me figure out how to make stats for Aurak, Bozak and Sivak Draconians for PC use? I'm trying to figure out their skills, feats and such. Like if they naturaly get any bonus feats or plusses to skills. Also trying to figure out how to do a savage species version of each of them so that everyone can play one at first level and gain their monster levels. Thus everyone could be what kind of draconian they wanted to be at 1st level. Some would just need more growing up to do.
#2
Granakrs
Aug 23, 2003 18:40:05
Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Cany anyone help me figure out how to make stats for Aurak, Bozak and Sivak Draconians for PC use? I'm trying to figure out their skills, feats and such. Like if they naturaly get any bonus feats or plusses to skills. Also trying to figure out how to do a savage species version of each of them so that everyone can play one at first level and gain their monster levels. Thus everyone could be what kind of draconian they wanted to be at 1st level. Some would just need more growing up to do.

Heheh. I've been working on such a project myself, trying to make the equivalent of Kipper's Kencyclopedia for kender. Since i'm busy working on other stuff, I can't post my drac handbook yet, but we can talk about it.

You mentioned the Savage species accessory. if you have it, simply follow the rules there. Take the common Aurak, Bozak, and Sivak stats as you base character. look at the Hit dice of the creature. Starting from there, determing if the drac's special abilities are powerful enough to require additional levels. This will be your level adjustment. Simply add Hit Dice, and level adjustment. That will be the ECL the other players will need to match before your draconian can play. The feats and skills in the character sheet should be what you're giving to the the Drac PCs.
#3
akumadaimyo
Aug 23, 2003 20:34:43 Well actually I wanted to give the monsters levels so that ANY kind of draconian can be played at level 1. The Savage Species book gives monsters levels, which I call "growing up". 1st level Monsters are like the babies who have to gain more levels before they gain all their abilities. Thats what I want to do so I could have a party with all the different kinds of Draconians in it instead of saying "Oh the Aurak is whopping ECL+8! You cant play him for forever!"
#4
Granakrs
Aug 24, 2003 6:48:31
Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Well actually I wanted to give the monsters levels so that ANY kind of draconian can be played at level 1. The Savage Species book gives monsters levels, which I call "growing up". 1st level Monsters are like the babies who have to gain more levels before they gain all their abilities. Thats what I want to do so I could have a party with all the different kinds of Draconians in it instead of saying "Oh the Aurak is whopping ECL+8! You cant play him for forever!"

Heheh. well, you did say you wanted some info. Anyway, if you wanted to make monster classes, you can look up what i have so far in
http://www.mindspring.com/~granakrs/incoming/Draconian.3e.handbook.ver7.SavageSpecies.doc
It's not finished yet, but chapter 2 has my own take of Drac Monster Classes.

My suggestion is to take the following steps.

1) look at the drac's stats, and determine what the level adjustment should be. Savage species has some good suggestions. Natural armor, uneven stats, etc.

2) Make a table with the number of rows equal to the Drac's Hit Dice and level adjustment. In my tables, i have 8 HD + 8 Lvl Adj = 16 rows.

3) Distribute hit dice growth, spell list growth, and special abilities accordingly. (I know, this is very subjective. I try to keep it balanced, as if i'm switching from magical spell growth and physical growth per row.)

Hope that help. Were it not for it's size and complexity, I would simply post my stats on the board. It's easier for me to provide a link to my draft version of the handbook. if you read it, feel free to let me know your thoughts about it.
#5
akumadaimyo
Aug 24, 2003 12:52:05 Your handbook was good but there are some things wrong with it or confusing. It is hard to read in some areas due to grammar or spelling.

Also given some of the incredibly high ecls how in the world is a Draconian going to get any xp? Remember that your ECL times your level is how much exp you need to level up! It also decreases how much xp you gain because you are treated as being a character of your class level +ECL.

Also why do some of the races have more levels than they do hp? Shouldnt a Aurak only have 8 levels to gain? 8hd =8 levels? On the ECL thing though, is ECL ignored if you are gaining monster levels instead of using a "Fully Grown" monster and slapping him with a ECL to keep game balance? Cause ECLs are given to balance out a monsters nasty ablities. If the monster has to gain levels instead of starting off with all those abilites then doesnt that counteract the need for him to be hit with a ECL?

A 1st level Aurak has pracitcally no abilites at all and to hit him with that ungodly high ECL he has would mean he would never gain any levels unless he killed somthing really tough. As a "baby" aurak that is highly unlikely. So using the monster class levels do monsters even have a ECL anymore? I would think they wouldnt since they are now having to gain levels in their monster class much like a non ECL pc must gain levels in his or her chosen profession to get truly powerful.

Lastly some of the Draconian classes make it pretty worthless to gain any class levels afterwards. A Aurak has to gain like 16 or so levels first before he can gain a class which means he can only get 4 piddly levels of a class unless you use epic level rules. 5 levels of a class is nothing. However the Mind Flayer also suffers that drawback of not really being able to gain levels of a class so perhaps is is fair. Though I'm not certain if a Aurak would really need to gain 16 levels or not.
#6
Granakrs
Aug 24, 2003 17:20:12
Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Your handbook was good but there are some things wrong with it or confusing. It is hard to read in some areas due to grammar or spelling.

Well, it's not finished yet. So bad grammar and spelling will be a problem. You're also looking at a Handbook that was written months before the DLCS. You'll note I assumed +8 level adjustments instead of +4 in the DLCS. so yeah, it hasn't gone into any final editing, or even extensive game balancing issues. You wanted to talk about how one might do Drac monster classes, and so i offered mine. :-)

Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Also given some of the incredibly high ecls how in the world is a Draconian going to get any xp? Remember that your ECL times your level is how much exp you need to level up! It also decreases how much xp you gain because you are treated as being a character of your class level +ECL.

Well, I think we have some confusion about ECLs and Monster classes. ECLs should be used only if the draconian will be at full power, and your drac will be getting character class levels. So a 1st fighter aurak is an ECL 17. That means, my drac needs 153,000 XP to reach ECL 18. I've been following the "Experience for monsters" listing on page 24 of the 3.0 DMG. Remember, the starting ECL of the Aurak in the DLCS is 8 + 4 = 12.

Anyways, For monster classes, Starting ECL are "levels" for the monster class. The aurak with my starting ECL of 16 would have 16 monster class levels. Each HD and each level adjustment acts as a monster class level. So, by the time the aurak has reached full power under monster classes, he will have the same XP requirements as the Aurak using ECLs. My monster class Aurak will need 136,000 XP to be a 1st level fighter. and he will need 153,000 XP to reach the next level.

Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Also why do some of the races have more levels than they do hp? Shouldnt a Aurak only have 8 levels to gain? 8hd =8 levels? On the ECL thing though, is ECL ignored if you are gaining monster levels instead of using a "Fully Grown" monster and slapping him with a ECL to keep game balance? Cause ECLs are given to balance out a monsters nasty ablities. If the monster has to gain levels instead of starting off with all those abilites then doesnt that counteract the need for him to be hit with a ECL?

ECL is basically three things. HD + level adjustments + class levels. So, the Monster class treats each HD and level adjustment. Think of ECLs as a short cut, giving you all the monster class levels in one swoop.

Some races have more mosnter levels then HD because of level adjustments. Each level adjustment is treated as another monster level, where the HD doesn't increase. For a Savage species example, look at the SS minotaur on page 28. you'll note 2nd and 3rd level of the monster class have the same HD, 2d8. That row is a level adjustment.

With the Aurak, it has 8 HD. I also gave the character +8 level adjustments. Appendix A of my handbook lists the skills i thought required the level adjustment. Those included invisibility at will, dimension door, mind control. Each of those are nasty powers in addition to sorcerer casting levels, and fighting abilities. That means the aurak has the same firepower as a 16th level PHB character.

Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
A 1st level Aurak has pracitcally no abilites at all and to hit him with that ungodly high ECL he has would mean he would never gain any levels unless he killed somthing really tough. As a "baby" aurak that is highly unlikely. So using the monster class levels do monsters even have a ECL anymore? I would think they wouldnt since they are now having to gain levels in their monster class much like a non ECL pc must gain levels in his or her chosen profession to get truly powerful.

Well, to me, the 1st level Aurak monster class (which is different compared to a 1st level aurak fighter) needs 1000 XP to reach 2nd level in the monster class. He has the same firepower as a PHB 1st level character class. It shouldn't have all of it's abilties. So yeah, throw out ECL. After he's completed all levels of of his monster class, treat all his monster levels as a part of his Starting ECL.

Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Lastly some of the Draconian classes make it pretty worthless to gain any class levels afterwards. A Aurak has to gain like 16 or so levels first before he can gain a class which means he can only get 4 piddly levels of a class unless you use epic level rules. 5 levels of a class is nothing. However the Mind Flayer also suffers that drawback of not really being able to gain levels of a class so perhaps is is fair. Though I'm not certain if a Aurak would really need to gain 16 levels or not.

Heheh. DLCS suggests +4 level adjustments. that's 12 levels. well, my choice of +8 level adjustments might be over the top, but then the Aurak is a very powerful character to play. When i find time, I'll go through the handbook and edit it to match it with the DLCS. Also remember, some class skills stack. The BAB of a fighter stacks on top of the BAB of the monster class. An 1st level aurak fighter's ranged touched energy ray's strikes an enemy as if it were a 9th level fighter. Also, Sorcerer castling levels stack on top of the casting level of the monster class. A 1st level Aurak Sorceror can cast like a 9th level sorceror.

Granak Red-Silver
Sivak
#7
akumadaimyo
Aug 24, 2003 20:15:06 Will that Aurak also know all the spells a sorceror of that level would know or will he just cast his spells more effectively?
#8
zombiegleemax
Aug 24, 2003 20:32:56 The Draconians are already listed in the format for Savage Species and even give details on how to play each of them as player characters (which of course two of them are listed in the player races).

Aurak for example has a +4 to the level adjustment!! Which i'm very weary of this considering they can cast spells as an 8th lvl sorcerer. Very powerful race, but also very hated. Their social bias makes them for an extremely challenging character to play.

The other draconians are listed the same way.
#9
akumadaimyo
Aug 24, 2003 20:37:51 BUT do they get the ammount of spells a 8th level sorceror would have?

BTW your quote is actually something more like:

"Don't be so sure of this technological terror you've constructed. The power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader

In fact I think that is the EXACT quote.

Why yes I'm a Star Wars Geek. What of it? :D
#10
akumadaimyo
Aug 28, 2003 13:52:38 So when will that cool little handbook your making be done? I am interested in doing something with a all Draconian group for some friends. That or just do my all drow/underdark game idea as that would be way easier sicne I own a lot of drow stuff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 akumadaimyo Aug 23, 2003 16:18:46	Cany anyone help me figure out how to make stats for Aurak, Bozak and Sivak Draconians for PC use? I'm trying to figure out their skills, feats and such. Like if they naturaly get any bonus feats or plusses to skills. Also trying to figure out how to do a savage species version of each of them so that everyone can play one at first level and gain their monster levels. Thus everyone could be what kind of draconian they wanted to be at 1st level. Some would just need more growing up to do.
#2 Granakrs Aug 23, 2003 18:40:05	Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Cany anyone help me figure out how to make stats for Aurak, Bozak and Sivak Draconians for PC use? I'm trying to figure out their skills, feats and such. Like if they naturaly get any bonus feats or plusses to skills. Also trying to figure out how to do a savage species version of each of them so that everyone can play one at first level and gain their monster levels. Thus everyone could be what kind of draconian they wanted to be at 1st level. Some would just need more growing up to do. Heheh. I've been working on such a project myself, trying to make the equivalent of Kipper's Kencyclopedia for kender. Since i'm busy working on other stuff, I can't post my drac handbook yet, but we can talk about it. You mentioned the Savage species accessory. if you have it, simply follow the rules there. Take the common Aurak, Bozak, and Sivak stats as you base character. look at the Hit dice of the creature. Starting from there, determing if the drac's special abilities are powerful enough to require additional levels. This will be your level adjustment. Simply add Hit Dice, and level adjustment. That will be the ECL the other players will need to match before your draconian can play. The feats and skills in the character sheet should be what you're giving to the the Drac PCs.
#3 akumadaimyo Aug 23, 2003 20:34:43	Well actually I wanted to give the monsters levels so that ANY kind of draconian can be played at level 1. The Savage Species book gives monsters levels, which I call "growing up". 1st level Monsters are like the babies who have to gain more levels before they gain all their abilities. Thats what I want to do so I could have a party with all the different kinds of Draconians in it instead of saying "Oh the Aurak is whopping ECL+8! You cant play him for forever!"
#4 Granakrs Aug 24, 2003 6:48:31	Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Well actually I wanted to give the monsters levels so that ANY kind of draconian can be played at level 1. The Savage Species book gives monsters levels, which I call "growing up". 1st level Monsters are like the babies who have to gain more levels before they gain all their abilities. Thats what I want to do so I could have a party with all the different kinds of Draconians in it instead of saying "Oh the Aurak is whopping ECL+8! You cant play him for forever!" Heheh. well, you did say you wanted some info. Anyway, if you wanted to make monster classes, you can look up what i have so far in http://www.mindspring.com/~granakrs/incoming/Draconian.3e.handbook.ver7.SavageSpecies.doc It's not finished yet, but chapter 2 has my own take of Drac Monster Classes. My suggestion is to take the following steps. 1) look at the drac's stats, and determine what the level adjustment should be. Savage species has some good suggestions. Natural armor, uneven stats, etc. 2) Make a table with the number of rows equal to the Drac's Hit Dice and level adjustment. In my tables, i have 8 HD + 8 Lvl Adj = 16 rows. 3) Distribute hit dice growth, spell list growth, and special abilities accordingly. (I know, this is very subjective. I try to keep it balanced, as if i'm switching from magical spell growth and physical growth per row.) Hope that help. Were it not for it's size and complexity, I would simply post my stats on the board. It's easier for me to provide a link to my draft version of the handbook. if you read it, feel free to let me know your thoughts about it.
#5 akumadaimyo Aug 24, 2003 12:52:05	Your handbook was good but there are some things wrong with it or confusing. It is hard to read in some areas due to grammar or spelling. Also given some of the incredibly high ecls how in the world is a Draconian going to get any xp? Remember that your ECL times your level is how much exp you need to level up! It also decreases how much xp you gain because you are treated as being a character of your class level +ECL. Also why do some of the races have more levels than they do hp? Shouldnt a Aurak only have 8 levels to gain? 8hd =8 levels? On the ECL thing though, is ECL ignored if you are gaining monster levels instead of using a "Fully Grown" monster and slapping him with a ECL to keep game balance? Cause ECLs are given to balance out a monsters nasty ablities. If the monster has to gain levels instead of starting off with all those abilites then doesnt that counteract the need for him to be hit with a ECL? A 1st level Aurak has pracitcally no abilites at all and to hit him with that ungodly high ECL he has would mean he would never gain any levels unless he killed somthing really tough. As a "baby" aurak that is highly unlikely. So using the monster class levels do monsters even have a ECL anymore? I would think they wouldnt since they are now having to gain levels in their monster class much like a non ECL pc must gain levels in his or her chosen profession to get truly powerful. Lastly some of the Draconian classes make it pretty worthless to gain any class levels afterwards. A Aurak has to gain like 16 or so levels first before he can gain a class which means he can only get 4 piddly levels of a class unless you use epic level rules. 5 levels of a class is nothing. However the Mind Flayer also suffers that drawback of not really being able to gain levels of a class so perhaps is is fair. Though I'm not certain if a Aurak would really need to gain 16 levels or not.
#6 Granakrs Aug 24, 2003 17:20:12	Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Your handbook was good but there are some things wrong with it or confusing. It is hard to read in some areas due to grammar or spelling. Well, it's not finished yet. So bad grammar and spelling will be a problem. You're also looking at a Handbook that was written months before the DLCS. You'll note I assumed +8 level adjustments instead of +4 in the DLCS. so yeah, it hasn't gone into any final editing, or even extensive game balancing issues. You wanted to talk about how one might do Drac monster classes, and so i offered mine. :-) Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Also given some of the incredibly high ecls how in the world is a Draconian going to get any xp? Remember that your ECL times your level is how much exp you need to level up! It also decreases how much xp you gain because you are treated as being a character of your class level +ECL. Well, I think we have some confusion about ECLs and Monster classes. ECLs should be used only if the draconian will be at full power, and your drac will be getting character class levels. So a 1st fighter aurak is an ECL 17. That means, my drac needs 153,000 XP to reach ECL 18. I've been following the "Experience for monsters" listing on page 24 of the 3.0 DMG. Remember, the starting ECL of the Aurak in the DLCS is 8 + 4 = 12. Anyways, For monster classes, Starting ECL are "levels" for the monster class. The aurak with my starting ECL of 16 would have 16 monster class levels. Each HD and each level adjustment acts as a monster class level. So, by the time the aurak has reached full power under monster classes, he will have the same XP requirements as the Aurak using ECLs. My monster class Aurak will need 136,000 XP to be a 1st level fighter. and he will need 153,000 XP to reach the next level. Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Also why do some of the races have more levels than they do hp? Shouldnt a Aurak only have 8 levels to gain? 8hd =8 levels? On the ECL thing though, is ECL ignored if you are gaining monster levels instead of using a "Fully Grown" monster and slapping him with a ECL to keep game balance? Cause ECLs are given to balance out a monsters nasty ablities. If the monster has to gain levels instead of starting off with all those abilites then doesnt that counteract the need for him to be hit with a ECL? ECL is basically three things. HD + level adjustments + class levels. So, the Monster class treats each HD and level adjustment. Think of ECLs as a short cut, giving you all the monster class levels in one swoop. Some races have more mosnter levels then HD because of level adjustments. Each level adjustment is treated as another monster level, where the HD doesn't increase. For a Savage species example, look at the SS minotaur on page 28. you'll note 2nd and 3rd level of the monster class have the same HD, 2d8. That row is a level adjustment. With the Aurak, it has 8 HD. I also gave the character +8 level adjustments. Appendix A of my handbook lists the skills i thought required the level adjustment. Those included invisibility at will, dimension door, mind control. Each of those are nasty powers in addition to sorcerer casting levels, and fighting abilities. That means the aurak has the same firepower as a 16th level PHB character. Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo A 1st level Aurak has pracitcally no abilites at all and to hit him with that ungodly high ECL he has would mean he would never gain any levels unless he killed somthing really tough. As a "baby" aurak that is highly unlikely. So using the monster class levels do monsters even have a ECL anymore? I would think they wouldnt since they are now having to gain levels in their monster class much like a non ECL pc must gain levels in his or her chosen profession to get truly powerful. Well, to me, the 1st level Aurak monster class (which is different compared to a 1st level aurak fighter) needs 1000 XP to reach 2nd level in the monster class. He has the same firepower as a PHB 1st level character class. It shouldn't have all of it's abilties. So yeah, throw out ECL. After he's completed all levels of of his monster class, treat all his monster levels as a part of his Starting ECL. Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo Lastly some of the Draconian classes make it pretty worthless to gain any class levels afterwards. A Aurak has to gain like 16 or so levels first before he can gain a class which means he can only get 4 piddly levels of a class unless you use epic level rules. 5 levels of a class is nothing. However the Mind Flayer also suffers that drawback of not really being able to gain levels of a class so perhaps is is fair. Though I'm not certain if a Aurak would really need to gain 16 levels or not. Heheh. DLCS suggests +4 level adjustments. that's 12 levels. well, my choice of +8 level adjustments might be over the top, but then the Aurak is a very powerful character to play. When i find time, I'll go through the handbook and edit it to match it with the DLCS. Also remember, some class skills stack. The BAB of a fighter stacks on top of the BAB of the monster class. An 1st level aurak fighter's ranged touched energy ray's strikes an enemy as if it were a 9th level fighter. Also, Sorcerer castling levels stack on top of the casting level of the monster class. A 1st level Aurak Sorceror can cast like a 9th level sorceror. Granak Red-Silver Sivak
#7 akumadaimyo Aug 24, 2003 20:15:06	Will that Aurak also know all the spells a sorceror of that level would know or will he just cast his spells more effectively?
#8 zombiegleemax Aug 24, 2003 20:32:56	The Draconians are already listed in the format for Savage Species and even give details on how to play each of them as player characters (which of course two of them are listed in the player races). Aurak for example has a +4 to the level adjustment!! Which i'm very weary of this considering they can cast spells as an 8th lvl sorcerer. Very powerful race, but also very hated. Their social bias makes them for an extremely challenging character to play. The other draconians are listed the same way.
#9 akumadaimyo Aug 24, 2003 20:37:51	BUT do they get the ammount of spells a 8th level sorceror would have? BTW your quote is actually something more like: "Don't be so sure of this technological terror you've constructed. The power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader In fact I think that is the EXACT quote. Why yes I'm a Star Wars Geek. What of it? :D
#10 akumadaimyo Aug 28, 2003 13:52:38	So when will that cool little handbook your making be done? I am interested in doing something with a all Draconian group for some friends. That or just do my all drow/underdark game idea as that would be way easier sicne I own a lot of drow stuff.