As far as a Spelljammer Campaign, well, it kinda lacks one. More accurately, its lots of little settings that are generally completely unrelated to one another and none are truly complete in of themselves, so writing a setting book is rather difficult.
Adam
What Spelljammer needs more than anything, IMO, isn't the "crunchy" so much as it is the "creamy".
(Yes, role-playing is now peanut butter.)
Spelljammer needs to have a setting of its own, while still able to touch upon other settings. Otherwise, it lacks some identity.
What I've discovered is that I'm in love with the concept of Spelljammer, moreso than the setting.
Sorry, I'm rambling.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Not as such. Static is working on converting stuff piece-meal into 3.5e, since its a good time for him to do it right now (he's unemployed at the moment). You won't likely see it all compiled into a single PDF file, since none of us own a PDF-writer (though Static was looking into some share-ware that might work, and I developed an extremely clunky perl-PDF writer myself).
As far as a Spelljammer Campaign, well, it kinda lacks one. More accurately, its lots of little settings that are generally completely unrelated to one another and none are truly complete in of themselves, so writing a setting book is rather difficult.
Adam
HMM, regarding my earlier questions i got this, now there appears to be enough Material on both the Beyond the Moons site and the Shattered Fractureline site to create a core rule book, and there are a few sphere's on the sites as well, now if i had permision from the various authors of these conversions, i would be willing to write a PDF up for the setting, like the Darksun and Birthright sites have done, but it would take a while to do so, but i am willing to do it....
There should, IMO, be an online sourcebook for Spelljammer. There has been a lot of great work done on conversions, but there is no unifying voice out there. Do we go with Andy Collins' stuff or Beyond the Moons or Shattered Fractine? Can materials from one work well with the others?
All it needs is someone with heart and a love for the setting to get it going.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Between Spider Moon, Beyond the Moons, Shattered Fractine, Andy Collins' site, and perhaps some other sources, there is enough to get a basic 3e PDF out there.
There should, IMO, be an online sourcebook for Spelljammer. There has been a lot of great work done on conversions, but there is no unifying voice out there. Do we go with Andy Collins' stuff or Beyond the Moons or Shattered Fractine? Can materials from one work well with the others?
All it needs is someone with heart and a love for the setting to get it going.
well as i said i'm willing to write the sourcebook up, as for contents, it should include basic changes to the clases, skills, feats, races, monsters, ship to ship combat, ship construction and templates, and spheres.
several of the spheres at Beyond the Moons could be included, though Bralspace and Pyrespace i don't think they can be added, since Pyrespace is the Shadow of the Spidermoon "sphere" and Bralspace includes the Rock of Bral, neither of which can be described for legal reasons....
Originally posted by Lost_and_Damned
well as i said i'm willing to write the sourcebook up, as for contents, it should include basic changes to the clases, skills, feats, races, monsters, ship to ship combat, ship construction and templates, and spheres.
My advice would be to follow the general outline you see in the FRCS, DLCS, or OA books.
several of the spheres at Beyond the Moons could be included, though Bralspace and Pyrespace i don't think they can be added, since Pyrespace is the Shadow of the Spidermoon "sphere" and Bralspace includes the Rock of Bral, neither of which can be described for legal reasons....
Depends on where you post this and how you do it. You may be okay posting on Beyond the Moons, as the official site. Truth to tell, use of anything SJ-related without permission could be bad. HOWEVER - the general rule of thumb is that WotC doesn't care so long as you're not trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property, and you're not reprinting their materials word-for-word.
Theoretically, I could write up a guide to how to do SJ while not reprinting a single thing. Just list out all the classes, feats, skills, etc., then point to where to look.
As for content, I wouldn't advise putting everything into one product. SJ would need to be divided into a few books at least.
1. Campaign Setting Sourcebook
2. Bestiary/Monster Manual
3. Guide to the Known Spheres
Some of those spheres, like Krynnspace, would have their own sourcebook.
For a general campaign guide, I would have a chapter on spheres that went something like this:
Chapter X: Spelljammer Campaign
1. Overview of Crystal Spheres/Space Travel/Etc.
2. SJ Campaign Setting: Sample Spheres (general overview)
a. Bralspace
b. Pyrespace
3. Adding Spelljammer to existing Worlds (general overview of the following as examples)
a. Greyspace
b. Krynnspace
c. Realmspace
Anyhoo, you get the idea. Spelljammer needs to be presented not only as a setting itself, but also as a tool to be added to other settings. All you need for an initial campaign guide is some overviews of some spheres, and one example sphere. Go into detail on the spheres in a later product, say a guide to crystal spheres.
*shrugs* I dunno. Seems to me the best way to go about this would be to get permission to reprint Spider Moon, then use it as a foundation for 3e SJ and expand beyond that. Still, the fan community is so split on things that I doubt you'll ever see this happen.
Okay, I'm rambling now. Please ignore the man with the helm shaped like a dragon sitting in the corner...
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
My advice would be to follow the general outline you see in the FRCS, DLCS, or OA books.
i don't have any of those, how are they structured?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Depends on where you post this and how you do it. You may be okay posting on Beyond the Moons, as the official site. Truth to tell, use of anything SJ-related without permission could be bad. HOWEVER - the general rule of thumb is that WotC doesn't care so long as you're not trying to make a profit off of their intellectual property, and you're not reprinting their materials word-for-word.
i was thinking you guys who run Beyond the moons would want to host such a book.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
As for content, I wouldn't advise putting everything into one product. SJ would need to be divided into a few books at least.
1. Campaign Setting Sourcebook
2. Bestiary/Monster Manual
3. Guide to the Known Spheres
Some of those spheres, like Krynnspace, would have their own sourcebook.
quite right there Dragonhelm, but i would also include a fourth book on ships, after all, there are LOADS...
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
For a general campaign guide, I would have a chapter on spheres that went something like this:
Chapter X: Spelljammer Campaign
1. Overview of Crystal Spheres/Space Travel/Etc.
2. SJ Campaign Setting: Sample Spheres (general overview)
a. Bralspace
b. Pyrespace
3. Adding Spelljammer to existing Worlds (general overview of the following as examples)
a. Greyspace
b. Krynnspace
c. Realmspace
Anyhoo, you get the idea. Spelljammer needs to be presented not only as a setting itself, but also as a tool to be added to other settings. All you need for an initial campaign guide is some overviews of some spheres, and one example sphere. Go into detail on the spheres in a later product, say a guide to crystal spheres.
Would the Beyond the moons site be allowed to include steps 2 and 3, assuming that the site would host such a book/s?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
*shrugs* I dunno. Seems to me the best way to go about this would be to get permission to reprint Spider Moon, then use it as a foundation for 3e SJ and expand beyond that. Still, the fan community is so split on things that I doubt you'll ever see this happen.
but would Dungeon/Poly magazine give permission?
Originally posted by Lost_and_Damned
i don't have any of those, how are they structured?
This is a rough basic structure. Each book has its own differences, based on setting.
1. Races
2. Classes and Prestige Classes
3. Skills and Feats
4. Magic
5. Gods and Cosmology
6. Geography (in this case, the known spheres)
7. The Spelljammer campaign
8. Ships and ship construction
9. Monsters (recommend only a sampling)
That's about it. Each of the books I mention follow roughly that outline, with some differences based on the individual campaign.
i was thinking you guys who run Beyond the moons would want to host such a book.
Honestly, you would have to talk to Static about it. I'm just the guy who works on Krynnspace.
quite right there Dragonhelm, but i would also include a fourth book on ships, after all, there are LOADS...
Oh, definitely.
Would the Beyond the moons site be allowed to include steps 2 and 3, assuming that the site would host such a book/s?
Take a look at Beyond the Moons now, and you'll see materials on Pyrespace, Krynnspace, etc.
As for whether Dungeon/Polyhedron would give permission for reprinting Spider Moon...who knows?
There should, IMO, be an online sourcebook for Spelljammer. There has been a lot of great work done on conversions, but there is no unifying voice out there. Do we go with Andy Collins' stuff or Beyond the Moons or Shattered Fractine? Can materials from one work well with the others?
Well the Beyond the Moons is offical site and be the best place to put such an online book. Static (he who is in charge of the Beyound the Moons) and I (he who is webmaster of Shattered Fractine) do chat alot. And while we not see eye to eye on everything, we are often on the same page (often working on simular projects at the same time). As I have noted to some, I not even know where to begin to get the setting publish in a book(s) and doubt I have the money to fund such.
If it was not for the 'Return to the Void' web site, I would have eventually contacted Static and most of my material would have been on his site not my own. But that is a long story in itself. As it is now, Static does plan on putting most of the critters on my site to his with him redoing some of the conversion himself.
I do agree that the four books would be:
1. Campaign Setting Sourcebook
2. Bestiary/Monster Manual
3. Guide to the Known Spheres
4. Ships and ship construction
Should add I love the Ship Cards and should also include a 'pack' of ships for the 4th book.
... and the Shattered Fractureline site ...
Hope that was error and not statement on my site. I do try my best to provide abundant amount of material for Spelljammer 3E/D20.
As for me I not really like PDF format, and much perfer a book in hand.
Originally posted by Danastes
As I have noted to some, I not even know where to begin to get the setting publish in a book(s) and doubt I have the money to fund such.
You would have to find someone to pick up the license. Honestly, I doubt such a licensed product would bring in enough money to warrant a license.
I do agree that the four books would be:
1. Campaign Setting Sourcebook
2. Bestiary/Monster Manual
3. Guide to the Known Spheres
4. Ships and ship construction
That's all you really need.
As for me I not really like PDF format, and much perfer a book in hand.
Unless someone gains the license, PDF is the best you can hope for. Besides, some big names (like Malhavoc Press) use PDF products, and they're quickly being hailed in higher regards.
All for now.
Originally posted by Lost_and_Damned
but would Dungeon/Poly magazine give permission?
Probably not. I don't think publishers of any kind take too kindly to people reprinting their articles. Besides, it's not too difficult to create a whole new sphere to use :D
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Probably not. I don't think publishers of any kind take too kindly to people reprinting their articles. Besides, it's not too difficult to create a whole new sphere to use :D
Not about the sphere, my man. It's about using those rules. They're a good starting point.
Between Spider Moon, my classic SJ stuff, Airships, and Aether and Flux, I have enough tools to do SJ in 3e if I so wanted.
Problem with using the Spider Moon rules set is that Spider Moon is out of print, and difficult to find. Not good to use as a basis for an ongoing campaign.
All for now.
Originally posted by Danastes
Hope that was error and not statement on my site. I do try my best to provide abundant amount of material for Spelljammer 3E/D20.
opps, sorry, was in a hurry and misquoted your site, your work on converting the ships is excellent, but i do find that when you click on certain options on your main menu such as the shipyard that they open up in new windows which is DAMN anoying.....
opps, sorry, was in a hurry and misquoted your site, your work on converting the ships is excellent, but i do find that when you click on certain options on your main menu such as the shipyard that they open up in new windows which is DAMN anoying.....
Thanks for liking my conversions of ships, most of what is on the shipyard is based on the githyanki ship as given in Manual of the Planes.
As for my site, I have it so that the main page is by it self. If one opens Shipyard another screen opens up (by design) and if you open creatures it should replace the Shipyard. I will reconsider making it so that all open in the same window.
Originally posted by Lost_and_Damned
hmm, re-read Spiders Moon, the rules for combat have been done and are availalble on the Beyond the moons site, and i think they are much better myself, as for the Spiders Moon PrC's their too setting dependent, as the skills have already been converted, so if a rulebook was written, you wouldn't have to use anything from Spiders moon, the only thing is Static owns the Beyond The Moons site? how do i ask him if he would be interested in hosting such a project?
Hey there. I'm actually working on a project similar to this -- focusing on ship combat/construction at the moment. I'll gladely host any material you'd like to contribute, but I wanna keep really tight control over what goes into anything official.
I'm also learning InDesign, so I won't need help build PDFs -- the offer is greatly appreciated, though.
Do you have any additional ideas? Or were you interested mostly in compiling what's already written?
You can contact me (and the rest of the council) through the email address on BtM. (I don't wanna post it here because we've been starting to get span on that list, and I don't want to expose it any more than I have to.)
Thanks!
-Static
Originally posted by Kiirl
Hey there. I'm actually working on a project similar to this -- focusing on ship combat/construction at the moment. I'll gladely host any material you'd like to contribute, but I wanna keep really tight control over what goes into anything official.
I'm also learning InDesign, so I won't need help build PDFs -- the offer is greatly appreciated, though.
Do you have any additional ideas? Or were you interested mostly in compiling what's already written?
You can contact me (and the rest of the council) through the email address on BtM. (I don't wanna post it here because we've been starting to get span on that list, and I don't want to expose it any more than I have to.)
Thanks!
-Static
well, the ideas i had was writing up a sourcebook using the material on Beyond the Moons and the Shatered Fractline as well as giving extended ideas on using various races, skills etc in a fantasy space setting, as well as providing not only sample spheres but ideas on creating one of the users own and ideas on campaigning etc.... though i'm not the world's greatest writer and it would take time....
Originally posted by Lost_and_Damned
well, the ideas i had was writing up a sourcebook using the material on Beyond the Moons and the Shatered Fractline
{Snip}
Well, the first I plan on doing is ships and ship combat. After that, I plan on putting together one for races, skill, feats, classes, etc. -- you know, player junk. We are far from complete with lists of skills, feats, and the like, so this PDF will be updated often. Monsters will be in the same boat, and will just be a collection of the stuff from BtM. (Shattered Fractine is not official, and only material that is part of BtM will be used in official products. I'm working with Mark to move the good stuff over, though.
)Originally posted by Nightdruid
Not as such. Static is working on converting stuff piece-meal into 3.5e, since its a good time for him to do it right now (he's unemployed at the moment). You won't likely see it all compiled into a single PDF file, since none of us own a PDF-writer (though Static was looking into some share-ware that might work, and I developed an extremely clunky perl-PDF writer myself).
I've got a copy of Acrobat to utilize for the cause.
Also, could someone please post the URLs for the various sites being mentioned?
Also, could someone please post the URLs for the various sites being mentioned?
By Your Command!
Beyond the Moons The Offical Site
The Shattered Fractine
Andy Collins- D20 Spelljammer The designer's site for Spelljammer D20 (from the Polyhedron Magazine)
These are the most currently active sites that promote Spelljammer 3E/D20. If any one knows of another site(s) that are fairly active let me know.
Originally posted by lord zog
I've got a copy of Acrobat to utilize for the cause.
Also, could someone please post the URLs for the various sites being mentioned?
Beyond the Moons
Shattered Fractine
Andy Collin's Site (Spider Moon)
All three sites listed above have an extensive list of external links.
For those worried about making PDFs there are some free options. Google for PDF995 and PDFCreator. These are programs that let you print to a PDF. Might not be pretty, but it's still a PDF. Also OpenOffice.Org has a Export to PDF feature. (Be warned this is a 60 MB download.)
If you're curious about the PDF quality you'll get from these go here: Fantastic Creations. It's my Yahoo group. For a sample PDF created with PDF995 (and PDFedit, I think it's called) check out "Crystal Spheres". For a sample PDF created with OpenOffice.Org check out. . . the review for "Crest of the Stars" and. . . the "AnyBook RPG" file.
Don't think I have anything created with PDFCreator currently up.
edit: Obviously I take too long to post.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
There's been a lot of talk here (and elsewhere) about creating PDFs for SJ. I'm a bit confused about what people want out of these PDFs, from the various comments I've read. So, my question is, do people simply want stuff in PDF, no matter what it looks like? Or do they want more polished, "product" style PDFs?
Originally posted by Kiirl
Heya,
There's been a lot of talk here (and elsewhere) about creating PDFs for SJ. I'm a bit confused about what people want out of these PDFs, from the various comments I've read. So, my question is, do people simply want stuff in PDF, no matter what it looks like? Or do they want more polished, "product" style PDFs?
Good question. Danastes and Nightdruid would probably know what players and GMs have been asking for better than most. But I'm guessing what's wanted is something that has been formatted for printing. The better looking the better. If the PDF happens to have a decent layout and some art in it, I doubt anyone would complain.
Let me give some advice (I've worked on fairly large projects in the past and present so I hope this advice can help!)
My suggestion is to start small. Don't overscope the project; life has taught me that starting off grand tends to lead to total collapse of everything. I'd start with getting a ship system down, figure out what core ships you want, a few new races, and a single sphere like Paul's Bralspace. Don't try to detail the Known Spheres all at once, aim smaller.
Why Bralspace is good is because it lacks any large worlds; that saves on detail work. Lots of small planets, enough room for all sorts of adventures, but nothing that requires more than a page or two writeup besides Bral and a few minor worlds.
Classes: Avoid rewriting these at all cost for the first pass!! At most, just explain how they fit in SJ (a paragraph or two). Get ships, your sphere, spells, and a few races done first. You can always come back to these later. Creating a whole new set of classes is almost on par with creating a whole new game.
Races: Just use standard races for the first pass, and maybe add some SJ favorites that have already been converted (Giff, dracon, etc). I think most of the work here is just consolidating info into the master document.
Sorry if some of this might conflict with things I said a little earlier; sometimes reality gives me a nice, swift kick to the head
Here's my basic thoughts (minus specifics):
-------------------------------------------------------
Races
1. PHB races. Perhaps change the half-orc to half-scro.
2. SJ races from Spacefarer's HB.
3. Perhaps add a couple more, say from Star Frontiers. Don't overdo it though.
Classes
1. PHB classes with notes on how they fit in space.
2. Perhaps make druid, ranger, barbarian, and monk non-standard. People can still play them, but they aren't the norm.
3. Add Stellar Corsair and Explorer.
Prestige Classes
1. Spelljammer Ace
2. Master Scavenger (or something else gnome-related)
(Add more here, but don't overpower it.)
Skills
Needs various SJ-specific skills, like Wildspace Survival, Knowledge (spelljamming), etc.
Feats
Various SJ-specific feats, such as Body Manipulation, various weapon feats for SJ ships, etc.
Magic and Gods
You need a section on how magic works in SJ. Also a note on how the various gods work.
Ships and Ship Construction
Basic rules, with a handful of sample ships. Leave the detailing of all ships for a later product.
The Spelljammer Campaign
1. Basic materials on spheres
2. Sample sphere(s) - Bralspace (and possibly Pyrespace)
Spelljammer Monsters
Just a few sample monsters, but leave the remainder of the monsters for the SJ Monstrous Compendium 3e.
-------------------------------------------------------
That's what I have from memory.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Thoughts?
My thoughts
Races/Classes/PrCs: Too much. I wouldn't tackle adding new classes/PrCs yet. Instead of having new PrCs, I'd comment on existing ones and how they fit in SJ, rather than invent/reinvent new ones. Afterall, even the core books have a ton of PrCs...even the DMG has like a dozen now. Save new classes/PrCs for v2.0, if you still want to go the OGL approach.
Skills/Feats: I think Static has the necessary work done here for you, so I'd ask him *real nice* to see if you could use those and spare yourself the headache
Magic/Gods: I wouldn't explain where magic comes from. That's v2.0. Instead, just say which gods are prominant in space (Ptah, Celestian, Norse/Egyptian/Greek Pantheonic Churches).
Ships: this is where a good 75% of the work needs to be done.
Campaign: I'd stick with detailing how spheres work, and just Bralspace. Pyrespace is too isolated, IMO.
Monsters: Again, ask Static & Mark *real nice* and that'll save you lots of work
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Races/Classes/PrCs: Too much. I wouldn't tackle adding new classes/PrCs yet. Instead of having new PrCs, I'd comment on existing ones and how they fit in SJ, rather than invent/reinvent new ones. Afterall, even the core books have a ton of PrCs...even the DMG has like a dozen now. Save new classes/PrCs for v2.0, if you still want to go the OGL approach.
I truly believe that SJ needs a Stellar Corsair and a Spelljammer Ace. We could probably hold off on the other classes.
Races - We could cut this down some (i.e. no Star Frontiers races), but I would feel bad if we didn't have the SJ-specific races.
Skills/Feats: I think Static has the necessary work done here for you, so I'd ask him *real nice* to see if you could use those and spare yourself the headache
Agreed. I think Static's got a good handle on this.
Magic/Gods: I wouldn't explain where magic comes from. That's v2.0. Instead, just say which gods are prominant in space (Ptah, Celestian, Norse/Egyptian/Greek Pantheonic Churches).
*nods*
Ships: this is where a good 75% of the work needs to be done.
I agree. Honestly, I'd almost consider just going the Airships route, and add SJ-specific rules. However, we need something that is readily available online.
Campaign: I'd stick with detailing how spheres work, and just Bralspace. Pyrespace is too isolated, IMO.
Pyrespace has been detailed already anyway. Bralspace would be a good starting point.
Monsters: Again, ask Static & Mark *real nice* and that'll save you lots of work
Agreed.
Uhm....I haven't just volunteered to do a PDF sourcebook, have I?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Static, I think people would like something that looks like what Athas.org has done with their 3e materials. Something that looks like a 3e sourcebook (ala the FRCS, DLCS, or OA).
a nail hit right and truely square on the head
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I truly believe that SJ needs a Stellar Corsair and a Spelljammer Ace. We could probably hold off on the other classes.
Races - We could cut this down some (i.e. no Star Frontiers races), but I would feel bad if we didn't have the SJ-specific races.
yep Spelljammer needs the Corsair
and we need to keep the races to the standard plus berhaps the Giff and a couple of other Lawful/Good or Neutrally inclined races
skills look ok, perhaps a few more that ties in with ship building and design perhaps?
we need a few more Feats, esp for space combat, if i can help here i'll knock up a few playtest drafts of some Feats
as for magic, basic changes to selected spells which may work differently in space is required and a few from the older Setting books converted, otherwise that isn't too big a task
God's and Divine magic on the other hand is going to be a bastard to work out, i agree mostly with Statics suggestion and just keep it to those who are known to operate in many spheres, perhaps coming up with some rules for weaker spells for spheres which the Character's Diety dosn't have much influnce in? suggestions on this?
monsters, only the basic common monsters found in space from the earlier setting books is needed, and an appendix of which monsters in the core rule books you are likely to find as well
on the Beyond the moons site is two interesting PDF's on ship construction and ship combat, has anyone thought of using them with minor adjustments?
one problem AFAIK is there isn't many Standard ship-o-the-line's from the old Core boxset converted on the Beyond the Moons site, most of them have yet to be ported over from The Shattered Fractline site.
as for how many Campaign setting books, this old quote is a good idea
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do agree that the four books would be:
1. Campaign Setting Sourcebook
2. Bestiary/Monster Manual
3. Guide to the Known Spheres
4. Ships and ship construction
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Agreed.
Uhm....I haven't just volunteered to do a PDF sourcebook, have I?
hey i volunteered to do a sourcebook(s) as well ;) perhaps we should all work together to do them
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Uhm....I haven't just volunteered to do a PDF sourcebook, have I?
Heh, well, we have a word to describe people like you here in St. Louis..."SUCKER!!!"
Anyways, not much else to comment on since you pretty much agreed with me :D
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Heh, well, we have a word to describe people like you here in St. Louis..."SUCKER!!!"
Oh yeah?
They have a word to describe people like me here in Kansas City as well.
Actually, it's the same word. Hrm... :embarrass
First I would expect the core races, to this I would add Giff & Scro. Other races that I would feel ok to add would be Dracon and Lizard Folk. The approach here is to add those races that like scro which are orcs in space, and the other 3 showed up in original box set. I would not even concern myself with other races from the complete spacefarer's handbook.
While I would personally champion the Osakar and Dralasite as I believe the setting needs some truely strange critters as PCs, they not part of the original box set or any other spelljamming module/compendium.
Ship Combat and Ship Construction: After seeing deckplans that not match tonnage, I would base all ship stats off the deckplans volume of space within a ship. The first instint would be to have ships use the 10x10x10 section from Arms & Equipment book. But I would keep it much more closer to the Manual of the Planes version of the Astral Ship.
Not sure just how much play testing others have done with Ship to Ship combat for 3e, but I have found I like keeping the scale smaller rather then large. This means for me 40 feet square or hexes, with many ships taking up many hexes/squares. While this might offend some, my players and I can better visuallize it.
The reason for 40 feet per hex/square is to accomidate Long Range spells, and 2 of the 3 siege engines (as listed in the DMG) can have its Range Increment divided by 40 evenly.
Players in my campaign like the Idea that smaller ships go faster then larger ships with the exact same helm (do not ask me why I still trying to figure my players out). After Spelljammer D20 came out I was forced to scrap my rules for helms and use Andy's (But I still figure they should cost more then 30K (minor helm) and 50K (major helm). Players have stated that having the helmsman stuck in the Helm was restrictive enough without having stripped of thier spells (that restriction was lifted for my spelljamming campaign).
Enuff of the ship section
Spells, so few it be easy to convert once ship section/combat is nailed down.
Few of the battles in my campaign has occured in zero gravity. So the number of feats would be minimal. What can I say... Players voice thier concern at having new Feats show up... feats already at a premium. Have to make sure any new feats are a 'must' have. (one of my prestige classes I created has two feats to qualify for, my players rejected that class over an over, till I made some changes to its requirement, specially the feats.)
Skills I have found should be simplified, tried to use the skills from Beyond the Moon, but ultimately just use the 3 skills from D20 Spelljammer. As one of my players noted that the more skills that are created the 'stupider' [is that even a word?] the chracters get.
Monsters... Simple, if the monster was really liked by the community by now it can be found on the web as others that love the critter would have made a conversion by now (with the exception of the Stargazer that I still want to make a conversion for). If it not found on the web... well Junk It. Some of the monsters are just plain badly done in 2E. This would put the number of monsters below the 100 count.
No new core classes. Will have to agree on Spelljammer Ace and Stellar Corsair as prestige classes. To be honest one prestige classes for every two core classes.... The spelljammer ace would be good for sorcerers and wizards, stellar corsair for fighters/rogues..... Planetary Explorer would make a good prestige class but no core class really fit this bill except Ranger perhaps. It total about 6 prestige classes.
As for setting... Hmmm figure that Andy had the right idea in creating a seperate setting altogher away from the standard crystal spheres. I would still keep the Phlogiston as a means to link them all together.
I DO have to ask those that are doing conversions for spelljammer, how often do you run a spelljammer campaign and run ship to ship combat? I ask this cause when running combat round to lasting 6 seconds instead of 60 seconds, I to keep ships speed resonable to 2E was forced to go to 50 yard hexes and that was OK. Lately I tried 30 feet squares (play testing Andy's Spelljammer D20) and found that 40 feet works better cause of long range spells. I want to hear how successful your system has worked with 3e, and if you not play tested any of the stuff you creating how do you know it works?? I am always revising some aspect of my rules.
It been a real challange with 3E rules to incorprate ships combat and my personal dislike of ships like the Neogi Mindspider being 40 tons and have such wimpy deckplans, that would be lucky to be 4 tons.
My Final Say: If asked 3 years ago if I was to be webmastering a site for spelljammer 3e/D20 I say you crazy in the head. The purpose of Shattered Fractine is to help Spelljammer come into being the best 3E setting possible. Even if all my conversions are not used by the Offical Site, hopefully it has sparked others into action (ie keeping up with the Jones) to create conversions that are offical. I have my domain only for another 5 years (that is if I decide not to renew) and if WotC or others finally come out with rules that satify me, I might retire my site or at the very least have it as a repository for new material of my creation and others.
I LOVE SPELLJAMMER SETTING and I really wish WotC would create a book for it, and this love is what drives me to keep making conversions and new material even after I have long since gotten burnt out. Ron is already burnt out and sure he wish I would lose interest (I keep requesting he create new pics for the site).
I would love it even more if other created web site for spelljammer D20/3E as there are so few of them out on the web. The setting deserves better the three active sites.
Originally posted by Danastes
First I would expect the core races, to this I would add Giff & Scro. Other races that I would feel ok to add would be Dracon and Lizard Folk. The approach here is to add those races that like scro which are orcs in space, and the other 3 showed up in original box set. I would not even concern myself with other races from the complete spacefarer's handbook.
They could be left for a later supplement on monsters, with notes on how to play them as characters.
Personally, I'd rather scrap the orcs, and put scro in their place. Half-orcs then become half-scro (no rules change).
While I would personally champion the Osakar and Dralasite as I believe the setting needs some truely strange critters as PCs, they not part of the original box set or any other spelljamming module/compendium.
Leave them for the monster compendium.
Few of the battles in my campaign has occured in zero gravity. So the number of feats would be minimal. What can I say... Players voice thier concern at having new Feats show up... feats already at a premium. Have to make sure any new feats are a 'must' have. (one of my prestige classes I created has two feats to qualify for, my players rejected that class over an over, till I made some changes to its requirement, specially the feats.)
Agreed. Many of the Spider Moon feats were just unnecessary for a SJ game. Acrobatic comes to mind.
Skills I have found should be simplified, tried to use the skills from Beyond the Moon, but ultimately just use the 3 skills from D20 Spelljammer. As one of my players noted that the more skills that are created the 'stupider' [is that even a word?] the chracters get.
Heh! Yeah, I don't see the need for too many new skills.
Monsters... Simple, if the monster was really liked by the community by now it can be found on the web as others that love the critter would have made a conversion by now (with the exception of the Stargazer that I still want to make a conversion for). If it not found on the web... well Junk It. Some of the monsters are just plain badly done in 2E. This would put the number of monsters below the 100 count.
I'd just use a handful for the initial product, and mainly those that are staples of SJ.
No new core classes. Will have to agree on Spelljammer Ace and Stellar Corsair as prestige classes. To be honest one prestige classes for every two core classes.... The spelljammer ace would be good for sorcerers and wizards, stellar corsair for fighters/rogues..... Planetary Explorer would make a good prestige class but no core class really fit this bill except Ranger perhaps. It total about 6 prestige classes.
Why not have the Stellar Corsair be a core class? Dragonlance has added a mariner base class.
Granted, I'd accept it as a PrC just to include the role in SJ.
As for setting... Hmmm figure that Andy had the right idea in creating a seperate setting altogher away from the standard crystal spheres. I would still keep the Phlogiston as a means to link them all together.
I think he had the right idea, although it needed to be connected to the rest of the SJ universe.
I DO have to ask those that are doing conversions for spelljammer, how often do you run a spelljammer campaign and run ship to ship combat?
Not at all, to be honest. I haven't played SJ in years.
Originally posted by Danastes
I DO have to ask those that are doing conversions for spelljammer, how often do you run a spelljammer campaign and run ship to ship combat?
Play SJ all the time in a very long-running PBEM game (something like 5-6 years strong!
) We've had only a few ship-to-ships, usually ending up with out own ship blown right out from under our feet! :D All 2e, though; never been in a 3e ship-to-ship.Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Why not have the Stellar Corsair be a core class? Dragonlance has added a mariner base class.
Granted, I'd accept it as a PrC just to include the role in SJ.
Letme clarify something; the only reason I'd hold off on the Corsair at this time is that you stated you wanted to redo the whole class system for SJ via OGL or something; Corsair sounds like it'd fit into that arena
Other than that, it's cool with me Originally posted by Nightdruid
Instead of having new PrCs, I'd comment on existing ones and how they fit in SJ, rather than invent/reinvent new ones. Afterall, even the core books have a ton of PrCs...even the DMG has like a dozen now.
Here's an idea for a new terrain mastery for the Horizon Walker:
Void: You have a +4 competence bonus on Tumble checks. You gain a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls against creatures native to wildspace.
Instead, just say which gods are prominant in space (Ptah, Celestian, Norse/Egyptian/Greek Pantheonic Churches).
Ptah is listed in Deities & Demigods, as you probably already know. His domains are Creation, Knowledge, Law and Travel. For Spelljammer, I'd be inclined to remove Travel, since that overlaps with Celestian. Celestian should definitely have Travel, possibly Good, and do any official products have a Stellar domain? If not, perhaps we could create one. I see there's one on the Shattered Fractine, but it's too eclectic for my taste (no offense, Mark). Here are some thoughts for starters; maybe other people can help me fill in the gaps:
Granted Power: You gain low-light vision if you don't already have it.
1 - Dancing Lights
2 - Faerie Fire
3 - Daylight
4 - ?
5 - ?
6 - ?
7 - Stellar Beam (as Sunbeam)
8 - Starburst (as Sunburst)
9 - Meteor Swarm
If I had the FRCS handy I might use some of the Moon spells therein, but I don't.
For the Celestial Bureucracy (I think they called it "The Way" or something like that in SJ, but I don't have the SFHB handy to check), I'd rule that clerics must take Law as one of their domains, and the other can be any that they choose (except Chaos, of course).
Wyvern
do any official products have a Stellar domain? If not, perhaps we could create one. I see there's one on the Shattered Fractine, but it's too eclectic for my taste (no offense, Mark).
None offense taken, but will defend my Stellar Domain, to do any less would be... well not proper.
I not want to list most of the spelljammer spells as standard "cleric spells", which would allow all clerics to access these spells and as such the Domain is eclectic by design. Many of the Spells are from the original setting.
Here is the domain as given on my site.
Stellar Prestige Domain
Deities: Celestian, Ptah
Granted Powers: The cleric is considered in her native element when in a reduced or zero gravity field.
Stellar Domain Spells
1st Star Striding. Subject gains the ability to walk along a gravity plane.
2nd Glitter Dust. Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.
3rd Meteors. One six inch diameter meteor/level (max: 10 meteors), each stone does 1d4+4 points of damage.
4th Flyfield. Cause a powerless drifting ship (up to max 5 tons per caster level) to suddenly lunge.
5th Comet Steed. Summons a comet steed to serve you as a mount.
6th Debris Barrier. Animates non-living chucks of space debris (man-size or smaller) into motion.
7th Reverse Gravity. Objects and creatures fall upward.
8th Summon Cosmic Storm. Calls into existence the strange phenomenon known as the "cosmic storm".
9th Meteor Swarm. Deals 24d6 fire damage, plus bursts.
Spells like Summon Cosmic Storm, Debris Barrier, Flyfield are spells that from Spelljammer. The Meteor is a spell from Greyhawk that was a specialty spell only from priest of Celestian. Comet Steed and Star Striding are creations of my own to help in creation of magic items. Your selection of spells while following a pattern of light and fire (Stellar need not be only light and fire, the vastness of space is eclectic, cosmic storms, debris and other stuff... I not feel it inappropreate) that already exist mean less material to include in SJ product as spells like Debris Barrier and Flyfield can be left out. Remember that the Elf Domain from FRCS is elceltic (Elf Domain was copied spell for spell for one of the Moon domains for the Kalamar Setting... what does Cat Grace have to do with Moon?).
Originally posted by Danastes
I not want to list most of the spelljammer spells as standard "cleric spells", which would allow all clerics to access these spells and as such the Domain is eclectic by design.
Well, most of the spells I suggested aren't standard cleric spells either. And I have nothing against importing spells from other sources or making up your own; I just think there should be more commonality between them.
(Stellar need not be only light and fire, the vastness of space is eclectic, cosmic storms, debris and other stuff... I not feel it inappropreate)
But then what makes it different from your Wildspace domain? Stella means star, and a Stellar domain should feature spells that have something to do with stars, not just space.
Remember that the Elf Domain from FRCS is elceltic
Well, I don't think much of FR's racial domains either.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
FYI, Celestian is detailed in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
So what does it list for his domains?
Wyvern
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I think, too, that you could add one SJ-specific domain to Celestian, at least for our purposes.
Why one? You could do a couple, actually. Some ideas:
Deep space/night/whatever
Sun/star
asteroid
plant/life/elf ship
With some, you could probably take existing domains and morphing them to your needs.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I for one never played Spelljammer but I think that it sounds like a neat suystem. I wonder if they will ever release it for 3.5 like Ravenloft and Dragonlance hjaave been.
Unfortunately, that's unlikely unless WotC does a 180 on their licensing policies. From what I've gathered, for a d20 company to rent the license for a D&D world are pretty draconian, probably bankrupting all but the largest companies. It boils down to you pay a huge fee, then pay for the development of the core book, and WotC keeps the profits from the core book. The only profits you get are from stuff like supplements & modules, traditionally a non-profitable venture. So for most worlds, this would mean a d20 company would not likely recover the money they paid for the license. Ravenloft was gotten before such policies were in play, and the people that did Dragonlance figured they could make enough on supplements to cover the cost of the license.
L&D - I think a compilation would be great. Such a resource would be highly valued by the SJ community.
Anyhoo, all from me.
Oh, well. Kenzer & Co. can put it to good use as Hackjammer.
BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Let me guess: the members of the mailing list do not want 3e nor d20 version of Spelljammer?
It was more like one member decided to pick a fight.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Let me guess: the members of the mailing list do not want 3e nor d20 version of Spelljammer?
Like Night Druid said, one guy in particular. Although I will admit there is a strong anti-3e bias on that list. Glad that's not here.
I mean, it's cool if a person doesn't like one system or another. It's just not cool to rain on someone else's parade.
Oh, well. Kenzer & Co. can put it to good use as Hackjammer.
BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!
Lol! Yeah, I thought of Hackjammer myself (same name even). Who knows? Maybe SJ would succeed in that venue.
Anymore, though, I'm just going to get my SJ from all over. I've got classic Spelljammer, I can use elements from Spider Moon, I've got Airships, the Aerial Adventure Guides, Beyond the Moons, Shattered Fractine, various other sources, and a healthy imagination.
I'm good to go.
