Level adj, ECL etc...

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Aug 24, 2003 18:01:49		Okay have been trying to get my head around this and I think I finally have.

The centaur race is +2 Level adjustment, and has an ECL of 5 so a first level centaur ranger needs to earn enough XP to get to 9th level right? If that is so does that mean the centaur has already enough XP to be at eigth level or do they have to earn from 0 xp?

Also is there a way of modifying the classes so that they are playable without the ECL and keeping the Level Adjustment?


And +8 Strength for a Centaur! What the hell? Only two points behind an Ogre....

Arandur, Lord of the confused
#2

sweetmeats

Aug 24, 2003 18:07:12 		The centaur (+2) with 1 level in Ranger counts as a 3rd level character so he actually needs the XP for 4th to reach 2nd in Ranger and so on...

Thats how it has been explained to me on a couple other boards.
#3

zombiegleemax

Aug 24, 2003 18:10:01 		+12 attribute points, an extra 4d8 hit points etc. etc. and they are only considered a 3rd level character? Is it just me or does that seem somewhat broken when compared to the Irda or the half-Ogre...


Arandur
#4

sweetmeats

Aug 24, 2003 18:12:43 		Sorry, my bad. I was going with the +2 just as an example.

The Centaur does indeed count as 6 levels. So the 1st level centaur ranger needs the XP for 8th to reach level 2.
#5

zombiegleemax

Aug 24, 2003 18:15:35 		Okay that makes a lot more sense, but that still leaves me with the question does the character already have enough experience points to be Level 7 already and just have to earn enough XP for level 8 or do they need to earn enoguh XP for level 8 starting with 0 XP like all other characters?

Arandur
#6

daedavias_dup

Aug 24, 2003 18:28:34
Originally posted by Arandur
Okay that makes a lot more sense, but that still leaves me with the question does the character already have enough experience points to be Level 7 already and just have to earn enough XP for level 8 or do they need to earn enoguh XP for level 8 starting with 0 XP like all other characters?

Arandur

Technically, they have the experience of a 7th level character. If you were to place this character in a group of 1st-level party members(which is I suggest highly against), they should probably started at 0 xp so they don't continue to overshadow the other characters.
#7

shugi

Aug 24, 2003 18:34:42 		I've already created some racial levels for the ECL critters. When the stars are right, I should have the time to post it here or (much more likely) on the DL sites.
#8

zombiegleemax

Aug 24, 2003 19:01:15
Originally posted by Arandur
Okay that makes a lot more sense, but that still leaves me with the question does the character already have enough experience points to be Level 7 already and just have to earn enough XP for level 8 or do they need to earn enoguh XP for level 8 starting with 0 XP like all other characters?

Arandur

Ok. The centaur in question most certainly has 0 XP since in reality, he is still a 1st level character. he will have to get the XP necessary for 8th level to reach 2nd. The reason for this is that he is the equivalent of a 7th level char, not a true 7th level char. Hope that helps.
#9

cam_banks

Aug 24, 2003 19:51:12
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Ok. The centaur in question most certainly has 0 XP since in reality, he is still a 1st level character. he will have to get the XP necessary for 8th level to reach 2nd. The reason for this is that he is the equivalent of a 7th level char, not a true 7th level char. Hope that helps.

No, he has the XP that's required to be 7th level. If he starts the game with a bunch of other 7th level characters, he should reach 8th level at the same time they do.

Cheers,
Cam
#10

randpc

Aug 24, 2003 21:04:09
Originally posted by Cam Banks
No, he has the XP that's required to be 7th level. If he starts the game with a bunch of other 7th level characters, he should reach 8th level at the same time they do.

Cheers,
Cam

If that was so then the Centaur in question would be vastly more powerful then the other characters in the party.

A Level 8 Centaur is most definitely more powerful then a level 8 Human wouldnt you agree?

I would be inclined to agree with Serena DarkMyst.
The Centaur with 0 class levels would start off comparatively to a Human with 6 class levels.

The Centaur if he gained enough experience to go from level 0 up level 7 would then gain 1 class level, the first 6 levels would be taken up covering for his racial advantage over typical PC races.

A Centaur with 8 class levels should be roughly comparable to a Human with 14 class levels.
#11

zombiegleemax

Aug 24, 2003 21:19:13 		That's the problem, so many people interpret the rules differently and for my liking it is a little unclear in the DMG (where the DLCS tells us to go for the explanation). The party will be starting at 1st level, but one of my players would like to play a centaur. As a general rule sine this is a little strange, I throw the question to my players who had no problem with the differing power levels as we believed it would eventually balance out. That's where the question of the centaur already having experience poiints came into it. I think the ECL just complicated things and should have been represented as a Level adjustment without the bonus hit dice, skill points and etc. that go with the ECL. As is stands it makes it difficult to include a centaur in a starting party...

Arandur
#12

cam_banks

Aug 24, 2003 21:52:13
Originally posted by RandPC
If that was so then the Centaur in question would be vastly more powerful then the other characters in the party.

A Level 8 Centaur is most definitely more powerful then a level 8 Human wouldnt you agree?

I totally agree. However, an ECL 8 centaur (in other words, a centaur with 4 HD, a level adjustment of +2, and 2 character levels) is as powerful as an 8th-level human. And they each have the same number of XP.

I would be inclined to agree with Serena DarkMyst.
The Centaur with 0 class levels would start off comparatively to a Human with 6 class levels.

The Centaur if he gained enough experience to go from level 0 up level 7 would then gain 1 class level, the first 6 levels would be taken up covering for his racial advantage over typical PC races.

A Centaur with 8 class levels should be roughly comparable to a Human with 14 class levels.

A centaur with no class levels has as much XP as a normal character with 6 levels. He's already at the point at which he can join a 6th level party on an equal footing. Having him start from 0 xp makes him 15,000 xp behind everybody else in the party.

Quite simply, you can't have a centaur character in a 1st-level party of adventurers. He's too powerful. He's 6 levels worth of power, 7 if you've given him a class level. ECL creatures shouldn't come into play until the average party level is sufficient that the other characters are in the same league.

What normally happens is that a DM says to the group, "You have 15,000 xp (or similar number) to create a character." The players then decide if they want to have standard races, races with a level adjustment (such as irda), or races with both racial hit dice and a level adjustment (such as ogres). All the PCs will have the same ECL, though some will have more class levels than others.

Cheers,
Cam
#13

zombiegleemax

Aug 24, 2003 22:04:19 		Hmm that's what I was afraid of Cam. I have to admit I haven't looked at messing with creating a race, level adjustments and the like but I might have to look at that as an option.

Is it just as easy to 'cut away' the ECL material and use the centaur as a simple +2 Level adjustment or is it more complicated than that (which is what I figure it is from looking at the stat adjustments alone). 'Tis a shame because I figure the centaur (and the draconians too) would be a race that many players would like to use and are unplayable at lower levels...

It makes me wonder why they were included in such a manner as part of the character races section instead of the monster section with a paragraph or two on centaur player characters.

Arandur
#14

randpc

Aug 24, 2003 22:37:31
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Having him start from 0 xp makes him 15,000 xp behind everybody else in the party.

Having the Centaur start with the same XP as the other characters ensures that the Centaur would have a dramatic advantage in terms of power though.
That's why the Centaur has to start with less XP so as to cover his racial advantages he has.


Originally posted by Cam Banks
What normally happens is that a DM says to the group, "You have 15,000 xp (or similar number) to create a character." The players then decide if they want to have standard races, races with a level adjustment (such as irda), or races with both racial hit dice and a level adjustment (such as ogres). All the PCs will have the same ECL, though some will have more class levels than others.

I'll use your example of 15,000 XP.
In that case one could for example choose to play a Level 6 Human... a character worth 15,000 XP.
Should he gain 6000 XP he would advance to level 7.

If said player desired he could also choose a Centaur with no class levels.
The 15,000 XP would have been used to cover the racial advantage the Centaur has over the human character.
The Centaur would then have to gain 1,000 XP to go up to Class Level 1, or 21,000 XP to get up to class level 7.


The rules arent designed to allow a Centaur to start in a party of 1st level characters so if you wanted to do so you you'd pretty much have to ignore the Centaur's first 15,000 XP as he starts of with a racial advantage worth roughly 15,000XP.
Thereafter he would start gaining XP as normal.



Is it just as easy to 'cut away' the ECL material and use the centaur as a simple +2 Level adjustment or is it more complicated than that (which is what I figure it is from looking at the stat adjustments alone).

If you removed his 4 racial hit dice then you could cut away most of his advantage.
Then you could simply use the +2 ECL modifier and make a 1st level Centaur equivalent to a 3'rd level Human or other base race.
Again the rules werent designed for that though, so it may not work out perfectly fairly, it should be adequate as a rough approximation however.
#15

zombiegleemax

Aug 24, 2003 22:45:27 		yeah I figured that the +2 level adjustment would be more 'playable' for a beginning centaur. I still think there is more to it than just cutting out the ECL material (ie: Racial Hit Dice), I think some concessions on the stats are also needed.

With the Level adjustment only, the party balances out in the first few levels in regards to XP (as dictated by the FRCS level adj. table -for ease of use). The ECL is the part where it gets a little overbearing to me...

Arandur
#16

zombiegleemax

Aug 25, 2003 4:38:39 		the way that i see things is, a 1st level centaur ranger xp wise is the same as a 3rd level character. that counts for the +2 level adjustments. he would start with 3000xp and need to get to 6000xp to become a level 2 character. when it comes to level adjustments the forgotten realms campaign setting has it laid out pretty good. if you have it try use it as a refference guide.

now when the dm is calculating xp for the party the players effective level is the same as ecl of 5 plus character level. therefore the xp that the centaur character would gain is less than the rest of the party. that is what i could figure out using the dm's guide. hope this helped. if i am totally wrong however i would like to find out and correct it immediatly.
#17

sweetmeats

Aug 25, 2003 6:50:37 		I just went back to the boards where I have been discussing this, and this what they agreed on:


All characters begin the game with 0 XP, at creation. An ECL of any amount does not give you additional XP, but requires you gain more to advance. A 1st level character with a Racial +1 ECL, is the equivalent of a 2nd level character, but has no XP, and requires 3000 to advance to 3rd level equivalency. The character would have 2 class levels. This is especially vital if you plan on creating characters at above 1st level... an ECL does NOT give you XP; it is a penalty of sorts.

#18

cam_banks

Aug 25, 2003 7:17:33 		I think there's a lot of confusion regarding this. A centaur's "racial advantage" is already covered by the fact that he starts out with 4 HD and has a +2 level adjustment. The level adjustment also takes into account that the centaur has 4 HD already - if it didn't, it might be an even greater level adjustment. Racial HD "absorb" some of the LA since you already have a more powerful character based on the traits that come with the HD. There's a point at which certain abilities that would normally demand a LA just don't matter as much, which is also why auraks only have an LA of +4 and not +8.

A player that's given 21,000 xp could either create a 7th-level human, elf, or dwarf character, or a 1st-level centaur character. The "racial advantage" is already taken into account. Now, a 1st-level centaur has 5 HD, 4 HD from its race and 1 from its class level, but there's 2 phantom levels of adjustment in there which soak up the XP and make it so that the centaur doesn't have any more HD than that.

The centaur's character level (for determining feats, ability score raises, skill caps, etc) is 5, from 4 HD + 1 class level.
The centaur's class level is 1, from its class.
The centaur's ECL (effective character level) is 7, from its 4 HD, it's 1 class level, and the +2 level adjustment (for determining XP and personal wealth).

So, forget about the issues of "racial advantages". This system already takes those into account. Don't start the centaur out at 0 XP, because a 7th level human character would then have the advantage over it. The downside of playing a centaur has already been factored in - it has less HD than the 7th level character, fewer feats, less skill points, lower base attack bonus (more than likely), etc. But, it's on an equal footing XP-wise, and the campaign can continue fairly after that.

Cheers,
Cam