Grand Theft Greyhawk - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Grand Theft Greyhawk

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 3:35:40 Just curious to hear opinions from "older" Hawkers.

What things were stolen/borrowed from Greyhawk and used in other published settings later?

Please cite sources where you know them.
#2
mr._vandermeer
Aug 27, 2003 5:21:27 Most obviously would be the drow.

It seems like th Forgotten Realmers think the drow are completely theirs All because of Drizzzzzzzzt). But we know better.

(Too many sources to mention)
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 7:38:38 Everything including the kitchen sink.
#4
Halberkill
Aug 27, 2003 11:50:29 Well Kara Tur for one was going to be set in Greyhawk, This was stated in an ad for it in an old dragon magazine.

More than just the Drow in general, there are many Drow houses in Greyhawk that were ported over to the Realms, Eilserv being one of them. Check in the Menzoberanzan boxed set compared to D3 Vault of the Drow.

The Night Below boxed set seems like it was meant to be set in Greyhawk, but then got changed at the last minute. If you look at the shape of the terrain features of the map, and ignore the feature they represent, the map looks very similar to the Furyondy area.

Many artifacts with a Greyhawk history have been seen in the Realms. The aparatus of Kwalish was in the Baldur's Gate video game.

Also the Axe of Dwarven Lords and Rod of 7 Parts were from Greyhawk, but the adventures set around them were genericized.

Though thank the gods none of the gods were ported over.

Halber
#5
Brom_Blackforge
Aug 27, 2003 13:49:32
Originally posted by Halberkill
Though thank the gods none of the gods were ported over.

Well, except Lolth. And actually, now that I think about it, weren't all of the demihuman pantheons imported into FR?
#6
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 13:56:43 I've heard that Brom, from several people on these boards.
Not sure if it's true, but I'm hardly the expert on the subject.
#7
cwslyclgh
Aug 27, 2003 14:39:31 yep, with the exception of some specific gods (such as Gorm Gulthyn of the dwarves) the pantheons as presented in the realms were the same as those in greyhawk... but that was because in 1-2e the demi-humans were supposed to have the same gods no matter where they lived.
#8
Argon
Aug 27, 2003 18:23:23 Well, all of thee above is true. Let us not forget the Cooshee (Elven Dog). I've even seen the Derro in one or two realms products. While the Forgotten Realms stole the Drow I decided to omit the Drow from my Greyhawk campaign. Instead I used the Derro in their place. Ultimately I look for a Greyhawk type of feel to the game.
#9
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2003 21:17:16 The assassin and the loremaster PrC! Why i see them being used by pure FR'ealmers if both are based on guilds in the city of greyhawk? (or something like)
#10
cwslyclgh
Aug 27, 2003 22:48:15 all 1e worlds had assassin guilds... the city of greyhawk doesn't have monopolies on them... assassin was a core character class in 1st edition ;)
#11
zombiegleemax
Aug 28, 2003 21:36:42 I, for one, don't understand how Melf's acid arrow, Nystul's magic aura, Otiluke's resilient sphere, Otto's irresistable dance, Mordenkainen's disjunction, Dramidj's instant summons, Bigby's forceful hand, Evard's black tentacles, Leomund's tiny hut, Rary's mnemonic enhancer, Tasha's hideous laughter, and Tenser's transformation found their way into the spellbooks of Realms wizards. This is not to mention the presence of the Standard of Ulek (one of the BG games I believe) which always befuddled me to no end. Keoghtom's Ointment has always been interesting as well, since no one named Keoghtom developed such a thing for Toril. And how did Heward manage to transer the knowledge of his handy haversack to Faerunians?

All of this is well and good, but this one takes the cake. I don't know if any of you have ever played in Living City, but guess which Prestige Class they allow without restriction: Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom. There's not even a Great Kingdom on Toril to protect! WTF WERE THEY THINKING? It's my opinion that FR people who run LC have their heads rammed so far up their arses that they think FR is the default world and that all names in the splatbooks therefore must refer to FR. Either that or they assume there are Gates between the two worlds all over the place.

Ok, so really, I just hate FR. [/rant]
#12
zombiegleemax
Aug 28, 2003 22:13:32 Exactly airwalkrr. I wouldn't allow use of those spells in an FR game any more than I would allow a Larloch spell to be used in Greyhawk. If I can find some official source explaining how these spells/items traversed the planes, then I'll change my mind. Otherwise, I'd rather preserve the flavor.
#13
cwslyclgh
Aug 28, 2003 22:20:37 because in 1-2e it was possible to travel to other material worlds easily..., in fact Khelben the younger (who Khelben Blackstaff masqarades as so as to not let anybody know he is a thousand years old or so) moved from Waterdeep to Oerth when his "uncle" wanted to take over for him.

the wizards three articles in Dragon magazine, dealt intirely with meetings between Elminsdter, mordenkainen, and Raistlin (and later Dalamar).
#14
ruleslawyer
Jul 27, 2004 18:00:10 Now wait a minute, guys. Most of what you listed isn't stuff being "stolen" from Greyhawk and used in other settings, but generic D&D stuff being used in multiple settings and games. Part of the point is that there was very litttle proprietary "setting" product in early AD&D; Gary Gygax wrote stuff that was just AD&D stuff, not "Greyhawk campaign material."

To wit: The drow made their first appearance in G3, which happens to be a tournament module, not a "Greyhawk setting"-specific product. They were then published in a generic, setting-independent monster book (Fiend Folio). The cooshee and derro both have their origins in modules as well, again not GH-specific material, and were published in a generic, setting-independent monster book (MMII, in this case).

The demihuman deities are certainly not GH constructs: They originate in DDG (as "Nonhuman" deities, not GH deities) and in a series of articles written by Roger Moore (no, not that Roger Moore) in Dragon 58-62.

As for the spells: Try the Player's Handbook and Unearthed Arcana for origins, not a GH-specific book. Likewise, the Apparatus of Kwalish is from the 1e DMG.

Incidentally, Night Below is a setting-independent module.

Again, it's not really appropriate to call generic AD&D material Greyhawk setting material. It isn't. Gary used names that he came up with, which also happened to be GH names, in writing some of the stuff (such as the spells), but that don't make it "Greyhawk" material.
#15
gadodel
Jul 27, 2004 19:30:31 I do love both settings. However, it is discussions like these that make me want to vomit. Particularly when one fact gets overlooked each and every time: Greenwood is stealing Gygax's hair and blending it into his beard.

#16
zombiegleemax
Jul 27, 2004 22:21:28 Man, that's one image I really didn't need.
#17
zombiegleemax
Jul 28, 2004 0:55:34 Whats really funny is that someone resurrected a year old thread to continue the debate...

:fight!:
#18
binky_farnsworth
Jul 28, 2004 15:26:08 *ahem*

Actually G3 while a tournament module was also a Greyhawk specific module. The characters, whether tournament or not are hired by the Duchy of Geoff (a GH nation). In fact virtually all of the tournament modules were GH specific (the Slavers series, C1, C2 etc).
#19
erik_mona
Jul 28, 2004 15:33:31 Vecna.

--Erik Mona
#20
mortellan
Jul 28, 2004 16:36:34 I'm not sure if this fits the topic, but how about the concept of a mad wizard's super dungeon (in/near a major city)? That seems to be a GH original.
#21
caeruleus
Jul 28, 2004 16:45:53 What about how the Realms incorporated (A)D&D rules? The thieves! ;)
#22
Mortepierre
Jul 29, 2004 2:50:18
Originally posted by mortellan
I'm not sure if this fits the topic, but how about the concept of a mad wizard's super dungeon (in/near a major city)? That seems to be a GH original.

Like this you mean? :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 3:35:40	Just curious to hear opinions from "older" Hawkers. What things were stolen/borrowed from Greyhawk and used in other published settings later? Please cite sources where you know them.
#2 mr._vandermeer Aug 27, 2003 5:21:27	Most obviously would be the drow. It seems like th Forgotten Realmers think the drow are completely theirs All because of Drizzzzzzzzt). But we know better. (Too many sources to mention)
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 7:38:38	Everything including the kitchen sink.
#4 Halberkill Aug 27, 2003 11:50:29	Well Kara Tur for one was going to be set in Greyhawk, This was stated in an ad for it in an old dragon magazine. More than just the Drow in general, there are many Drow houses in Greyhawk that were ported over to the Realms, Eilserv being one of them. Check in the Menzoberanzan boxed set compared to D3 Vault of the Drow. The Night Below boxed set seems like it was meant to be set in Greyhawk, but then got changed at the last minute. If you look at the shape of the terrain features of the map, and ignore the feature they represent, the map looks very similar to the Furyondy area. Many artifacts with a Greyhawk history have been seen in the Realms. The aparatus of Kwalish was in the Baldur's Gate video game. Also the Axe of Dwarven Lords and Rod of 7 Parts were from Greyhawk, but the adventures set around them were genericized. Though thank the gods none of the gods were ported over. Halber
#5 Brom_Blackforge Aug 27, 2003 13:49:32	Originally posted by Halberkill Though thank the gods none of the gods were ported over. Well, except Lolth. And actually, now that I think about it, weren't all of the demihuman pantheons imported into FR?
#6 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 13:56:43	I've heard that Brom, from several people on these boards. Not sure if it's true, but I'm hardly the expert on the subject.
#7 cwslyclgh Aug 27, 2003 14:39:31	yep, with the exception of some specific gods (such as Gorm Gulthyn of the dwarves) the pantheons as presented in the realms were the same as those in greyhawk... but that was because in 1-2e the demi-humans were supposed to have the same gods no matter where they lived.
#8 Argon Aug 27, 2003 18:23:23	Well, all of thee above is true. Let us not forget the Cooshee (Elven Dog). I've even seen the Derro in one or two realms products. While the Forgotten Realms stole the Drow I decided to omit the Drow from my Greyhawk campaign. Instead I used the Derro in their place. Ultimately I look for a Greyhawk type of feel to the game.
#9 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2003 21:17:16	The assassin and the loremaster PrC! Why i see them being used by pure FR'ealmers if both are based on guilds in the city of greyhawk? (or something like)
#10 cwslyclgh Aug 27, 2003 22:48:15	all 1e worlds had assassin guilds... the city of greyhawk doesn't have monopolies on them... assassin was a core character class in 1st edition ;)
#11 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 21:36:42	I, for one, don't understand how Melf's acid arrow, Nystul's magic aura, Otiluke's resilient sphere, Otto's irresistable dance, Mordenkainen's disjunction, Dramidj's instant summons, Bigby's forceful hand, Evard's black tentacles, Leomund's tiny hut, Rary's mnemonic enhancer, Tasha's hideous laughter, and Tenser's transformation found their way into the spellbooks of Realms wizards. This is not to mention the presence of the Standard of Ulek (one of the BG games I believe) which always befuddled me to no end. Keoghtom's Ointment has always been interesting as well, since no one named Keoghtom developed such a thing for Toril. And how did Heward manage to transer the knowledge of his handy haversack to Faerunians? All of this is well and good, but this one takes the cake. I don't know if any of you have ever played in Living City, but guess which Prestige Class they allow without restriction: Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom. There's not even a Great Kingdom on Toril to protect! WTF WERE THEY THINKING? It's my opinion that FR people who run LC have their heads rammed so far up their arses that they think FR is the default world and that all names in the splatbooks therefore must refer to FR. Either that or they assume there are Gates between the two worlds all over the place. Ok, so really, I just hate FR. [/rant]
#12 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 22:13:32	Exactly airwalkrr. I wouldn't allow use of those spells in an FR game any more than I would allow a Larloch spell to be used in Greyhawk. If I can find some official source explaining how these spells/items traversed the planes, then I'll change my mind. Otherwise, I'd rather preserve the flavor.
#13 cwslyclgh Aug 28, 2003 22:20:37	because in 1-2e it was possible to travel to other material worlds easily..., in fact Khelben the younger (who Khelben Blackstaff masqarades as so as to not let anybody know he is a thousand years old or so) moved from Waterdeep to Oerth when his "uncle" wanted to take over for him. the wizards three articles in Dragon magazine, dealt intirely with meetings between Elminsdter, mordenkainen, and Raistlin (and later Dalamar).
#14 ruleslawyer Jul 27, 2004 18:00:10	Now wait a minute, guys. Most of what you listed isn't stuff being "stolen" from Greyhawk and used in other settings, but generic D&D stuff being used in multiple settings and games. Part of the point is that there was very litttle proprietary "setting" product in early AD&D; Gary Gygax wrote stuff that was just AD&D stuff, not "Greyhawk campaign material." To wit: The drow made their first appearance in G3, which happens to be a tournament module, not a "Greyhawk setting"-specific product. They were then published in a generic, setting-independent monster book (Fiend Folio). The cooshee and derro both have their origins in modules as well, again not GH-specific material, and were published in a generic, setting-independent monster book (MMII, in this case). The demihuman deities are certainly not GH constructs: They originate in DDG (as "Nonhuman" deities, not GH deities) and in a series of articles written by Roger Moore (no, not that Roger Moore) in Dragon 58-62. As for the spells: Try the Player's Handbook and Unearthed Arcana for origins, not a GH-specific book. Likewise, the Apparatus of Kwalish is from the 1e DMG. Incidentally, Night Below is a setting-independent module. Again, it's not really appropriate to call generic AD&D material Greyhawk setting material. It isn't. Gary used names that he came up with, which also happened to be GH names, in writing some of the stuff (such as the spells), but that don't make it "Greyhawk" material.
#15 gadodel Jul 27, 2004 19:30:31	I do love both settings. However, it is discussions like these that make me want to vomit. Particularly when one fact gets overlooked each and every time: Greenwood is stealing Gygax's hair and blending it into his beard.
#16 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2004 22:21:28	Man, that's one image I really didn't need.
#17 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2004 0:55:34	Whats really funny is that someone resurrected a year old thread to continue the debate... :fight!:
#18 binky_farnsworth Jul 28, 2004 15:26:08	ahem Actually G3 while a tournament module was also a Greyhawk specific module. The characters, whether tournament or not are hired by the Duchy of Geoff (a GH nation). In fact virtually all of the tournament modules were GH specific (the Slavers series, C1, C2 etc).
#19 erik_mona Jul 28, 2004 15:33:31	Vecna. --Erik Mona
#20 mortellan Jul 28, 2004 16:36:34	I'm not sure if this fits the topic, but how about the concept of a mad wizard's super dungeon (in/near a major city)? That seems to be a GH original.
#21 caeruleus Jul 28, 2004 16:45:53	What about how the Realms incorporated (A)D&D rules? The thieves! ;)
#22 Mortepierre Jul 29, 2004 2:50:18	Originally posted by mortellan I'm not sure if this fits the topic, but how about the concept of a mad wizard's super dungeon (in/near a major city)? That seems to be a GH original. Like this you mean? :D