I really wanna return my DL book but they wont take it back at the store what a watse of paper
I agree that the DL half-ogre is a little weak. On the other hand, the Savage Species half-ogre is too powerful for +1 ECL.
DL centaurs follow the format described in the Monster Manual.
Draconians get better HD, BAB, and saves than half-dragons. Conversely, they don't get the stats or breath weapon.
There's nothing saying that you have to use the version of the Half-Ogre in DLCS.
Why couldn't you have paged through the book in the store before buying it?
And would it kill you to use a bit of punctuation?
I don't understand giving a racial description at the beginning of the book that is unavailable for starting characters to play. If that is the case relegate it to the MM section of the book and let us deal with it from there. Don't get me wrong I'm all for options and different races just that I think they should comform to a race more like the core rulebook entry than a MM entry.
Arandur
Also, try to phrase things a bit nicer. Personally, I like the DL race stats. I don't consider them "jacked to hell".
Thanks!
--Moderator Type Guy
Originally posted by Arandur
I don't understand giving a racial description at the beginning of the book that is unavailable for starting characters to play. If that is the case relegate it to the MM section of the book and let us deal with it from there. Don't get me wrong I'm all for options and different races just that I think they should comform to a race more like the core rulebook entry than a MM entry.
If I'm not mistaken, the differences you see between say the Baaz Draconian entry in the DLCS and the Elf entry in the PH is due to extra HD. Thankfully, in 3.5 monsters follow characters a lot closely thus they receive bonus feats and skill points as a PC of the same HD. Because of the extra HD there must also be entries for extra BAB, Save Base Bonuses, feats and skills. This also means the race has to have LA and ECL.
Originally posted by KBAZZ
i do not type well or do i make any sentence strucure or do i make a attempt at spelling english is my 4th lang.
It isn't about grammar. It's about cussing and tone. There is a Code of Conduct on these boards, which all members are obliged to follow.
Anyway, no offense is meant. Just watch the use of cussing, okay?
Thanks!
Arandur
Besides the Half-ogre though I think the races look pretty good.
I think alot of people forget that the book is a guide and thats all. For me the books are starting points from which I can launch a realm of adventure for my friends and not hand cuffs to bind them to rules that they do not enjoy.
go to school, kid. it'll help ya out some.
Originally posted by Arandur
I don't understand giving a racial description at the beginning of the book that is unavailable for starting characters to play. If that is the case relegate it to the MM section of the book and let us deal with it from there. Don't get me wrong I'm all for options and different races just that I think they should comform to a race more like the core rulebook entry than a MM entry.
Arandur
It depends on what you mean by "starting characters". If it's a 1st level party, then yes a centaur would not be playable. But quite a few people like starting with a few levels under their belt, so if the whole party is 6th level, then the centaur fits perfectly.
Arandur
I know a centaur will take a bit of the light off of the lvl 1 human fighter but if the group has fun thats whats important. The other charachters will catch up in lvls in not too long a time so I figure that if the other players don't mind taking a bit of a back seat melee wise then thats cool cause the centaur maybe powerful but he just isn't built for alot of the roleplaying/stealth parts of a campaign.
I give xps for other things than fighting so by giving a few extra to the other charachters they will catach up.
Originally posted by Arandur
Yeah Iltharanos, I did mean 1st level characters, but I also meant for folks who are new to or just starting DL games also. It would have been nice to play some of those races during their more 'formative' or younger years. The DLCS seems to be written more in mind for the veteran DL fan (which is fine by me). It's probably that I just have a couple of new players to DL and one kind of was set on the Centaur...
Arandur
Savage Species has a "Centaur" class that allows anyone to play a Centaur character at 1st level. Then once the character has reached 6th level in this "Centaur" class he is on par with the MM centaur and any levels taken after that can be any the centaur character likes. The DL centaur seems identical to the MM centaur so you could easily use that option in your DL campaign of beginning 1st level characters. Of course, you'd have to actually possess the Savage Species book for this to work ...
Arandur
Originally posted by Arandur
Luckily Iltharanos I did buy it, but after the initial flick through and reading of sections here & there, I decided I didn't really like it. I guess I'll just have to back through it again. Thanks for the heads up on the Centaur that'll make her (the palyer's) day and my redesign of the Centaur race much easier
Arandur
No prob.
And as for the half-ogre - I believe the minotaur is only just barely +0 level adjustment. The half-ogre's net bonus to ability scores is higher than the minotaur's, edging it ever so slightly into +1 ECL. Compare it to the half-orc, for example.
Cheers,
Cam
Arandur
Originally posted by Arandur
Yeah but in Dark Sun you also rolled 4d4+4 or something like that for stats...
Arandur
I think you also started off with 3 different characters that you switched out in case the 1st and 2nd ones kicked the bucket ... or for flavor, or something.
Got to admit I did like the DS setting and you had to love the Mul...
Arandur
Arandur
Originally posted by Arandur
I think it was called 'The Tree of Life' or some such crud.
Character Tree.
Originally posted by Arandur
I don't understand giving a racial description at the beginning of the book that is unavailable for starting characters to play. If that is the case relegate it to the MM section of the book and let us deal with it from there. Don't get me wrong I'm all for options and different races just that I think they should comform to a race more like the core rulebook entry than a MM entry.
I don't know. I'm fine with Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook when it presented powerful PC races in the Character Chapter. The same goes for Oriental Adventures and d20 Modern's Urban Arcana books. Although they only use races with level adjustment of +3 or less, they are good enough as starting PC race option without going overboard. Any level adjustment of +4 or more, would take out the enjoyment of advancing your character. You'd have to wait at least 6 adventure sessions.
AFAIC, while the Dragonlance setting uses the D&D ruleset, it is a very different world than Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, so I can understand that most of the races on Krynn are not of the cookie cutter type you find in the MM.
Don't have my DLCS yet (but it's on layby) and one of the things I was looking forward to was all the info on centaurs and draconians... now what sort of level do I have to start people at to effectively use these races?
Just how does the ECL and all work?
I do have savage species, but it's a slug to get through and it kind of keeps ending up at the back of my list of books to read, so a quick explanation of ECL and Level Adjustment would be much appreciated... like, if I roll back the hit dice, can I start them with just ECL, or ??? Much confusion.
Thanks for the help!
Originally posted by plushdementor
I do have savage species, but it's a slug to get through and it kind of keeps ending up at the back of my list of books to read, so a quick explanation of ECL and Level Adjustment would be much appreciated... like, if I roll back the hit dice, can I start them with just ECL, or ??? Much confusion.
Not really. In some sense, the level adjustment takes into account the fact that some abilities can be explained by the levels in monstrous humanoid (or dragon, in the case of the draconians).
To determine ECL, add together racial HD, level adjustment, and class levels. So, if the race has 4 HD and a LA of +2, and you want to play a 1st-level character (like a fighter or ranger or cleric etc), the ECL is 4 + 2 + 1, or 7. The character starts with enough XP to be 7th level, has the appropriate wealth for a 7th level character, and needs enough XP to reach 8th level in order for it to get its next level in its character class (2nd, in this case).
Racial HD and class levels together make up "character level", which you use to determine how many bonus feats you get, when your ability scores can be improved, etc. If you have 4 racial HD and 1 level in a class, you should have 2 feats already (1 for 1st level and one for 3rd) although both of those would have come from your racial HD. When you reach 2nd level in your character class, your character level would be 6 (4 racial HD and 2 class levels) so you'd get another bonus feat.
Here are the ECLs and minimum average party level at which the following races could be used in a Dragonlance campaign assuming they take 1 level in a class:
Sea Elves: +1 ECL, 2nd-level party
Centaurs: +6 ECL, 7th-level party
Baaz Draconian: +3 ECL, 4th-level party
Kapak Draconian: +4 ECL, 5th-level party
Irda: +2 ECL, 3rd-level party
Ogre: +6 ECL, 7th-level party
Half-Ogre: +1 ECL, 2nd-level party
So, if you planned on starting a campaign with everybody at 5th-level, you'd first decide how much XP that amounted to (10,000) and tell everyone they have 10,000 XP with which to create their characters. You could end up with a 5th-level human fighter, a 1st-level kapak rogue, a 4th-level half-ogre cleric, and a 3rd-level irda wizard. You wouldn't have any centaurs or ogres in the group, since their ECL is +6 and they are too powerful for use at 5th-level.
Something to keep in mind here is that as many of these races already have base attack bonuses, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats from their racial HD, you can include those in determining if the character qualifies for a prestige class. Ogres have 4 HD, a BAB of +3, and Fort of +4, and so long as he's Lawful Good, has 2 ranks in Diplomacy, Knowledge (religion) and Ride (all possible if the character's Intelligence is high enough) as well as the Honor-Bound feat, he could start play as a 1st-level Knight of the Crown, right off the bat, without any levels of fighter etc. He'd be listed as an ogre Crown1, and his ECL would be 7.
Cheers,
Cam
It's explained it all pretty clearly.
I may have to start the group a little higher, depending on what people want to play!
On another note, I was in my gaming store just the other day, and even though I promised myself I'd pay off the book slowly, I walked out with it.
And so far (chapter one is the only one I've had time to read, though I did flip through) it looks great!
Originally posted by Arandur
That's the problem I guess. I just don't understand why they couldn't have made the Centaur (for example) without the ECL material. As I said a level adjustment is fine but the ECL just makes it difficult. The worst part is that if you 'cut away' the ECL material the race still doesn't work with the listed Level Adjustment, I mean look at the Centaur's stats does anyone else think that +8 strength is a little much? Sure give 'em a bonus to carrying capacity or an ability to reflect a charge but +8...
Arandur
I woudn't expect anything less from a race that is half-horse and half-man. These should not be weak creatures, and to make it EL +0 would just wreck the entire concept. It doesn't make any sense that such a large creature would be no stronger than a man.
I don't see any problems with the way the centaur is. Personally I'm upset that they changed the minotaur to make it playable at lvl 1.
I guess everyone's different.
Banshee
Originally posted by Hammerhand
Well Im letting my first lvl group start with pretty much any race for there charachters.
I know a centaur will take a bit of the light off of the lvl 1 human fighter but if the group has fun thats whats important. The other charachters will catch up in lvls in not too long a time so I figure that if the other players don't mind taking a bit of a back seat melee wise then thats cool cause the centaur maybe powerful but he just isn't built for alot of the roleplaying/stealth parts of a campaign.
I give xps for other things than fighting so by giving a few extra to the other charachters they will catach up.
That can work.
In my Planescape game, when we converted from 2nd to 3rd Ed. there was an aasimar (2nd Ed.) that became a half-celestial in 3rd (that was the heritage of the character, and it's a different race in 3rd than in 2nd). There was also a blooded Birthright elf. Both characters gained ELs which pushed them over the rest of the party.
Sure, they were more powerful than the other party members, but things balanced out in the end. Neither character has gained a level in months of play after the conversion, whereas the other characters in the party all gained 3 or so levels, and are catching up.
Banshee
Arandur
Arandur
Originally posted by Dragontooth
the +8 to strength that the centaurs get isn't with the humanoid part of the race. Its more with the horse body. The body of the horse is powerful, and should have a high strength score.
I've always pictured centaurs as being strong all over. They may look human on their top half, but those are the muscles of a horse-type body rippling under the skin. Many of the fantasy books I've read that talked about centaurs had them being very strong. Those aren't average STR 10 human arms atop a horse torso.
Banshee